- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- politics@lemmy.world
Summary
Following Donald Trump’s recent election victory, Google searches for “4B,” a South Korean feminist movement advocating a “no sex, no dating, no marriage, no children” stance, surged in the U.S.
The 4B movement, popular among young women on social media, promotes individual resistance against conservative politics and the erosion of reproductive rights.
The trend reflects a broader ideological divide between young men and women in the U.S., where women under 30 are significantly more liberal than men.
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“Young men expect sex, but they also want us to not be able to have access to abortion,” Thomas told The Post. “They can’t have both. Young women don’t want to be intimate with men who don’t fight for women’s rights; it’s showing they don’t respect us.”
Sounds reasonable and fair to me.
An awful lot of generalizing there.
I don’t think anyone involved thinks she’s talking about every single young man. Well, except you, of course
Now he’s just worried that they’re talking about him. Which they probably are considering his immediate defensive reaction.
“Young men…” wow I wonder where that idea came from
Jesus Fucking Christ, do we literally have to have women say things like:
“Young men – not all, just some, well in some areas most, but a lot of young men – expect…”
This tiptoeing bullshit to not anger some fragile men is insane. I lived as a straight man for over 40 years and this new idea that men are somehow put upon whenever a woman brings up being objectified, or has an issues with interactions with /takes a breath some, but not all, just a large amount, enough to be traumatizing, particularly as it’s systemic to the patriarchy, men.
This is ridiculous semantic bullshit in response to women feeling like objects and pushing back.
We’re better than this, and I’m tired of watching us act absolutely horrible whenever women point out systemic, extremely frequent issues they have with men, and have to inch around it so as to not break our fragile egos.
I agree. It’s like the whole “Not all men” deal: nitpicking the details of the phrasing instead of tackling the root issue. You’re only fighting those symptoms that affect you directly, not the root cause.
The day I have someone yelling in my face that I’m to blame for some other man’s rape is the day I’ll argue about that issue. Until then, let’s focus on the actual problem: In this case (some) young men being pieces of garbage.
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Just the ones who conform to my incredibly contemptuous description of them (a majority of white women apparently).
Going to need an attribution there, champ.
What kind of attribution do I need? I’m only talking about the ones who fit the description. Seems to me like trump voters fit that description but hey, if I’m wrong no biggy. After all I am only talking about the ones that do. Can’t you just infer that?
Women need to say, “Well, not every man is a rapist, but every person who raped me was a man, amd when I tried to speak up, almost every man told me he needed more evidence, that was an extreme claim that could ruin that man’s life, and when I tried to call police, they were made also of men who also rape and commit domestic violence at high rates, and when I went to court the judge was a Trump appointeee… So I guess really no men are rapists because the system doesn’t allow us to label them. Or maybe that makes all of you dangerous.”
I teared up a bit reading your comment, I’m so sorry you all go through this, and continue to go through this.
The worst part is a lot of the men saying this shit, even here in this thread, consider themselves ‘Leftist’. They know it’s the wealthy causing fighting amongst the poors to distract, and yet still these men fall for it. They think there’s some ‘women’s agenda’ coming for them and never once look back and think to themselves ‘wow, thank god they want equality and not revenge.’
Just the word “most” or “some” would avoid this whole conversation. Why does it have to come to this every time?
Why does it have to come to this every time?
I don’t know, why do men require people to use extra words not to hurt their feelings?
“Young men expect sex, but they also want us to not be able to have access to abortion,” Thomas told The Post. “They can’t have both. Young women don’t want to be intimate with men who don’t fight for women’s rights; it’s showing they don’t respect us.”
See, they even included parts like that, and still people are here whining about it.
I’m definitely not young. I’ve pretending to know me though.
I’ve pretending to know me though.
You’ve what? Had a stroke?
Did the hat fit you?
I voted for Kamala thanks.
Even incels can vote for Kamala
You really nailed me. What a joke this place is.
That’s not helping.
Dig a hole speed run any%
It’s talking about people who support trump. But you can’t only target them as people will just hide their political views to get laid.
In over 50% of America’s land area Rapists get to pick the mother of their child.
Flee red states.
The only why they’ll learn is if the rational people leave. The whole fill strategy will never work because red states need you more than you need them.
Flee red states!
Project 2025 advocates for tracking of child barring age women and girls. They will turn you into brood sows the moment they get a chance and justify it as the moral good.
Flee red states!
Blue states aren’t perfect but we at least know what freedom is and don’t need a 2000 yeast old book to decide what we should do next.
Fleeing my state isn’t an option. Besides, my state didn’t used to be red. A lot of states flipped or at least went from purple to red. So it’s not even a guarantee if you uproot your entire family and life that you get to stay blue.
I feel so demoralized when this comes up, as if it’s my own fault I’m living somewhere with terrible laws. I voted. I got other people to vote. I changed a few minds on abortion (not easy to do!). I don’t have the money or resources to start somewhere else, and we’re all about to have less money.
Are you willing to risk your mother’s, sisters, and daughters bodily autonomy on a under performing political party?
I’m not saying leaving will be easy. And I’m not saying it paradise and blue States. But I am saying red states don’t deserve you. Start making a plan at least because they won’t stop.
It’s my bodily autonomy. I’m a woman of child-bearing age. I even want to make a child sometime in the next four years. I’m risking my health. I can’t move. I will end up broke with zero resources in another state, with no job, and my husband will need to start his career from scratch if we move. We just can’t afford it. Plus wherever we move, we’ll be separated from both our families who are local here. And again, even if we move, wherever we start over could just be red in two election cycles anyway. Moving isn’t the answer.
One in five women in the United States experienced completed or attempted rape during their lifetime.
The chances of having a miscarriage is 1 in 4 pregnancies.
Multiply those statistics for every girl and women in your family.
Add in the fact that red states have disproportionately more sexual violence than blue states.
Are those odds you are willing to take?
No one is say moving well be easy. But you can start saving, planning, and applying for positions in safer areas. (politically, economically, and socially.) You don’t have to just move your core family. Everyone that cares about women’s rights can move too. If migrant women with no job, no prospects, no money, and no path to citizenship to receive services can do it, so can you.
Red states don’t deserve you. Every day you play the odds
Understandable.
But sweaering of ALL men is neither healthy nor realistic and the 4B movement is not really helping the issue. Plua the movement is extremely transphobic and essentialist. Its just TERFs doing a thing again…
A more practical solution: Dont date MAGA and leave them if need be. Take the children from them as well. They deserve scorn for voting in a dictator, just because they cant get laid. And they deserve to be reminded on how parhetic they are for all of it every single das until they change.
Agreed. I also can understand the feelings behind this, but it seems to ignore that quite a number of women voted for Trump.
Bingo. My wife won’t vote for a woman president because she, not me, thinks that they’re too emotional. I know a decent amount of women in the workplace that feel the same way. I voted for Kamala because Trump is a paranoid narcissist that is a thief, liar, and can’t be trusted and she was a darn sight better to keep the boat moving predictably forward.
Your wife is a moron
I hope that made you feel better.
I hope you realize your wife is a moron and a fascist.
Never said she voted for Trump. In fact, we don’t tell each other who we vote for. So yeah, try again. She’s typically strongly independent and really hates the two party system. RCV FTW.
My wife won’t vote for a woman president because she, not me, thinks that they’re too emotional.
This is directly from the Right’s playbook. She’s a moronic fascist.
Talk to her, and teach her the error of her ways. If you continue to be an apologist for a fascist, you might as well give up and join their ranks.
Needs to be said mate
Preaching to the choir doesn’t do any good. Just makes that person feel better about themselves.
They should feel bad
It’s not about feeling better. It’s about calling out bad behavior (i.e. misogyny).
Women are too emotional to be president? Shit man, maga and their current figurehead are fueled by extremely volatile emotion, no matter how much they crow about facts vs feelings. Rage is an emotion, and it’s what’s driven the movement for years before it even had a name. Citing emotionality as a reason not to elect a woman is just an excuse—a very poor one, at that—and everyone knows it.
Hey, you’re preaching to the choir. Lol.
That’s rich. How could one ever think in this election that Kamala was the emotional one. She made one joke about his crowd size and he went completely off the rails.
Got me. I think Trump is incredibly unstable.
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Reading comprehension. Jesus you people are stupid.
No wonder why the Democrats continue to underperform.
Might want to re-read that comment.
There’s nothing inherently unhealthy about being asexual.
4B isn’t about asexuality, it’s about abstinence. Not the same thing.
From a physiological standpoint? Seems virtually the same to me. The other guy said it was unhealthy. Is there anything unhealthy about abstinence?
The difference is that one is identity and the other is a choice.
Yes, no one is arguing that. The context was there’s no difference physiologically speaking. That was the premise.
I think the distinction is important to some people.
I have enough respect for those people to know they are smart enough to understand the distinction.
Asexuality doesn’t have the desire for sex.
This is abstinence for those that would like to have sex but don’t feel safe.
Physiologically it means that abstinence produces stress.
So yes, there are physiological differences, even if they arent measurable on the short term but instead of the long term.
They’re not necessarily the same, there’s two major differences between them physiologicaly:
- Asexual people date others unless they are also aromantic (well aromantic people also can date but it’s less common)
- Some asexual people can and do have sex
This is not just being asexual. This incel behaviour.
It’s called celibacy, and it’s voluntary in this context.
Abstains from sex is celibacy. That’s 1B.
There are 4Bs
The Bs are celibacy, no marriage, no children, no dating. None of that is incel behavior.
Incel = involuntary celibacy
These women are volunteering to be celibate.
Wow you don’t understand what incels are at all do you?
The problem is that some men will literally tell a woman anything they want to hear until they’re in bed. They will lie their ass off and avoid political discussion until after the proposal, then they’ll suggest maybe she could cook a little more
It’s always amazing how many men out themselves in these threads. Immediately angry and defensive. There’s no greater way to know that you’re exactly the kind of man these women are worried about than having that reaction.
In this thread a few people left mild and fair criticism and immediately got accused of being conservative. Some I recognized as having specifically progressive ideas in other threads.
I think there are fair criticisms of this for sure. Saying them out loud does not mean you have anything but the opinion you say. And now watch, I’ll be dog piled and accused of hating women or whatever.
Which isn’t true at all, it just seems kind of weird to deny yourself the pleasure of sex because… I guess… you don’t trust yourself to find a man who isn’t a piece of shit? Either that or you somehow believe such a person doesn’t exist? The only other option is it’s about being spiteful in a way that won’t help anyone at all. Conservative men are already having trouble getting women and you aren’t going to turn them liberal by not having sex with anyone. For this to ever work you’d need a large percentage of women to participate, which obviously isn’t going to happen.
Reactionaries suck and I’d hate to date one
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Point proven. Blocking you.
Guys always ask me how to meet women. I say, " It’s easy, be polite and learn how to communicate." None of them succeed.
Not really… from personal experience, I couldn’t find a single woman to date or show interest until I was 25. I was and still am super nice and polite, apparently too much for most.
I fully believe I am just ugly, and it is what it is. After being rejected for so long and never having the chance to have those experiences growing up, it did leave me in a bad place for a while.
Good news is I did meet someone at 25 and we’re married now over 10 years and have 2 kids. This was also right before the rise of dating apps, which I wonder what impact they would have had if given the chance to use them.
It’s really not that hard, I don’t get it. The only conclusion that I’ve been able to come to is that guys think being empathetic, polite and communicative will get them friend-zoned or something. That they have to be pushy about it or the gal will just be like, “you’re such a sweet guy, I think you’re a great friend”. You know, friends talk, partners fuck, or something like that.
Does anyone actually say that? I swear I’ve heard it or something similar before…
…Anyway, no, idiot, you’re getting friend-zoned because they’re just not into you that way. Being aggressive just gets you shut down faster too because you come off as impatient or desperate, or that you’re trying to do the song and dance because you have to, not because you want to. I don’t wanna be around a guy like that. That can be very concerning because it can indicate that all you want is sex and you’re just trying to find the right buttons to press on the “sex machine”. I get it, sometimes you just wanna fuck; but I’m a
dragonhuman being, not a sex machine.But… If you want a reason why you shouldn’t be concerned about being friend-zoned: personally I’m more likely to trust and view someone favorably if they’re friends with someone I already know, or they’re surrounded by people who have good things to say about them (especially if they’re enbies and/or women). Doesn’t mean everyone’s like that, but if you have lady friends who enjoy just hanging out with you then that tells me that you’re way more likely to respect me, treat me like a dra… *cough* human, and that I’m probably going to be safe around you. Those are good things. Those are things I need to feel before I can feel anything else. Again, I can’t speak for everyone, but there’s a glimpse into how my feelings seem to work, and why I don’t think you really need to be scared of the “friend-zone”.
Also, when it comes to wanting to “just fuck”; I’m waaaayy more open to that idea if we’re already good friends and neither of us are dating someone. Not everyone is like that, I’m probably kinda unusual in that regard, but… yeah.
Well said. I never worried about the friend zone bc I made my intentions known, “I like you and I want to date.” If she says she’s not into me then that’s it. 9/10 that women will be my “wingman” to find someone that likes me that way.
The bar is so low and yet they almost all fail. It’s down right scary. Just be polite and talk like a human being. Oh, and guys, don’t send the d pic unless asked. It really doesn’t do what you think it does.
The “bar” argument doesn’t exist. Plenty of women date shit bags. lol
The issue is, they go with sole intention of meeting a partner. Women rightfully have their guard up. If you just interact with someone in a hobby you both share interest in, she’s more likely to be into you. But not after a fucking week for crying out loud!
What? You mean that awkward pose with us choking it like “the dog having something in their mouth,” isn’t cool? Also me say hi then dick pic doesn’t get you going?
be polite
oh thank god!
Learn how to communicate
4B doesn’t sound like a bad idea to me
Communicate and talk are two different things. People talk to each other to get what they want. Communication means you have to listen and give a shit. So many guys talk for 1 reason, sex. Women want sex to but don’t want an asshole that treats them like shit afterwards. Some guys can’t get that and think women should be blessed in their presents.
Oh I’m really good at the listening part.
I don’t like the talking part. That’s the part I’m not good at. Or likely will ever be, which is ok. It’s scary.
Maybe it’s you that’s the issue?
Also, you can get any woman with a net.
Sure, but I get women consensually.
But the large swatch of incel’s that voted for Trump aren’t going to be affect by this.
They will just be able to further blame women. I’m all for that shit-show though. 🍿
The good thing about incels is they won’t pass on their hatred, their line dies with them.
They pass it on to someone else’s kids.
You underestimate the number of incels who wank in a cup for recreation, and a side hustle.
No, they won’t. But then the men affected will complain to other single men, and those of us that agree with 4B can say “yeah, it sucks, but how many guys have you stood up to and said ‘knock it off’”.
I guarantee the number is small.
incels*
Women will continue to demand better for themselves and some men will continue to get more radicalized in retaliation until we start raising boys to be empathetic and not sexualizing them so they feel entitled to people’s bodies.
Consent and boundaries need to be learned at an early age.
Understanding the emotions of others, and not being at the center of every interaction.
Understanding individual bodily autonomy, and extension of that to others.These all need to be passed on in early life, because they are foundational to ensuring better overall social interactions with the opposite sex, knowing the worth of oneself and others, and being respectful to everyone including oneself.
I would be very interested in understanding how boys are treated differently now then when I was young (millennial here). Why are gen z men so upset?
Many aren’t, which is part of the problem. There are still people who think beating children is acceptable punishment for change, despite evidence otherwise.
Gentle parenting is one method I’ve seen that has promise.
But when parents don’t actually try to learn how to parent, and don’t understand that they are raising an adult, generational bad behavior repeats itself with little growth.
Meh. I got beat plenty and I’m not a fascist incel.
Edit: i I want to clarify that I’m not saying beatings are okay I’m saying that I don’t think that’s the sole reason for people being shitty.
I’m a Millennial and I’m trying really hard not to judge Gen Z, but they’re more conservative, don’t know how to use tech, can’t sign their name, and can’t tell the difference between reality and conspiracies.
I’m not a parent so I don’t know whether other Millennial parents are the problem, education, or something else but man do they just come off as a bunch of idiots.
Not sure but Gen Alpha is scarier to me. Red pill ideologies are ingrained in their culture.
You know what just dawned on me
These guys essentially want sex dolls that can do chores. Sex dolls are way cheaper to take care of and they’ll learn to do chores themselves hiding it from everyone else lol
Imagine a future with sex robots. Good or bad for human women?
It’s a person’s decision whether to have sex, get married or date someone. They don’t need to justify that to anyone. No one criticizes men for choosing celibacy or choosing to remain single. But women don’t have that priviledge, so they have to justify themselves and still they will recieve criticism and hate from men just for choosing to exercise their personal freedom and live their life according to their values.
No one criticizes men for choosing celibacy or choosing to remain single.
I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I have to take issue with this. Men do get criticized for choosing not to have sex, or choosing not to marry. A man who chooses not to have sex constantly has his manhood questioned. And any single man who has not been asked when he’s gonna find a nice girl and settle down is a man without family.
No one criticizes men for choosing celibacy or choosing to remain single.
conservative parents enter the chat
I, for one, criticize incels regularly
But incels are involuntarily celibate (per their reasoning), even if they don’t understand that they’re wrong.
Typical media BS.
Found a story about a very small movement somewhere in the world than are blowing it out of proportion and saying this is actually a thing.
This is why Dems lost the election but the media thought they would win.
Fucking click bait sex sells story.
I call bullshit. Any politicaly aware liberal/progressive woman can sniff out a conservative dude 5 miles away. They ain’t fucking these kinda dudes unless they actually wanna be fucking them. I just don’t see it
Good for them for asserting their autonomy but basically the end affect is the opening plot of Idiocracy
I get your point, but I wouldn’t worry about what might happen in 20 years when what is currently happening is bad.
Yes, women should rape themselves by having sex with men they are furious with to avoid the ending of a random documentary
I think you misunderstood me. Assuming this is sarcasm, which I think is fair, I was also saying people shouldn’t oppose 4B because of Idiocracy.
I get your point, but I wouldn’t worry about what might happen in 20 years when what is currently happening is bad.
Ahh, the ol’ false bifurcation ostrich effect as a thought-terminating-looparoo.
I don’t think dismissing eugenics based arguments based on movie plots is a thought terminator lmao.
Downvoting to save words in your reply - nice. Have another upvote.
Your most recent reply actually conveys meaning/makes a specific versus broad point. To that point, I don’t necessarily think they were making a eugenics based argument (though I would agree with you in dismissing an argument based on that) since they didn’t explicitly state the reason for mentioning the movie was because they believe in some idea of politics being genetic versus simply being most effectively passed down via social means from one’s parents while living with them through adolescence. Call me crazy, but I think most of the folks posting here should be given the benefit of not assuming they’re talking about eugenics until they are explicitly promoting it versus something more widely accepted, such as the aforementioned idea that it’s highly likely that parents pass down their politics through social means to their children. I could, of course, be wrong and maybe they were intending to make a eugenics based argument, but they weren’t specific enough to divine that. All of that said, I should edit the phrasing in a sarcastic comment I made elsewhere about removing oneself from the gene pool being a bad strategy since I probably wasn’t clear enough to get across that I was using the very real right-wing perspective where they favor their “good genes” over others’ “genes” for added effect.
Your initial (decidedly vague) comment, as quoted, presents a false choice as if the person you were replying to was worrying about a future problem that is totally disconnected from the current topic of discussion, but they’re not and I don’t think the person you were replying to gave any reason for one to infer that they were ignoring the current issue in favor of some future issue. If they were talking about disconnected topics/problems then what you were saying would make more sense (or if you had been more specific, like in your followup, that would help too). It’s as if the person noticed a ceiling was leaking and exclaimed to someone suggesting to just put a bucket under it “Ignoring a leak is exactly how my neighbor ended up needing to replace their roof, I don’t think the bucket plan is a good plan in the long term!” and you were there to reply “Don’t tell them to worry about the roof, they need to fix the leak!” It’s not wrong, it just doesn’t really say anything or lead to further thought beyond the loop and comes across as a “calm down!”
Until the loneliness of conservative men hits the breaking point.
What was the 2024 election if not that?
White women voting for whoever their white husband/pastor/dad told them to vote for.
Fuck that if they voted for him they’re to blame.
Sure, blame women for the actions of men
It was stolen.
They have each other. Why does their loneliness require women?
Ill believe it when I see it, half these women have the most conservative SO you’ve ever met and tells them they’re good people at the end of hard days. Also these particular women are transphobes, so fuck them.
Women also voted for trump.
But Transphobes? Really? That’s where you draw the line? This is EXACTLY how the right pushed women to fight for their “identity” and turn against trans.
If you generise them like that and try to diminish what biological woman is, you bet your ass someone will use it to turn those would would be your ally against you.
Sounds like a great way to ensure that conservatives are the only ones having kids. This is just liberal women organizing their own extinction.
The other option is to have daughters with increasingly fewer freedoms than us. Fuck that noise.
Yup. I want kids, but I’m leaning towards not having kids due to, well… gestures broadly
Why the fuck would I want to inflict this world on a child?
Wouldn’t this make it even worse? This is basically ensure that an ever greater % of people grow up right wing, so that Republicans can stay in power longer with more extreme ideas
You’re getting downvoted but it’s the logical end.
Only if you assume a person can’t possibly have different political views from their parents’. It’s certainly more difficult, I’ll give you that, but it does happen.
women are more than baby incubating machines, holy shit
I didn’t say they were. I certainly believe that a woman can do whatever she wants with her body, and if some women choose not to have children, that’s their right, as far as I’m concerned. But, the fact of the matter is, if women aren’t having children, before too long there won’t be any more people. It’s really as simple as that.
I certainly believe that a woman can do whatever she wants with her body
sorry but I find that a bit hard to believe when your previous comment is basically saying that women should breed to ensure the survival of their ideology
I find that a bit hard to believe
Why? Two things can be true at once. I can believe that a woman can do whatever she wants with her body, while also acknowledging that if liberal women stop having kids, before too long there aren’t going to be very many liberals.
Unless you think my saying that is some form of coercion. But that would be silly because my words can’t force a woman to do anything. My words aren’t taking away any woman’s agency, especially since I’m not necessarily advocating for anything. You assumed I was, not that’s not my problem.
While parents certainly have an influence on their children’s ideologies and political leanings, it isn’t deterministic. Those children do still have agency, and external factors such as education (which yes, I know is under attack) and urbanization matter. Or even just simple youthful rebelliousness.
Regardless, I wouldn’t advocate left-leaning people to have more kids in some ill-advised attempt at a reproductive arms race. Among other issues, we are still staring in the face of environmental collapse.
I wouldn’t count on spontaneous liberal epiphanies and teenage rebellion to preserve the liberal hegemony.
I’m not necessarily advocating for anything. If you don’t want to have kids, don’t have kids. I’m certainly not going to mourn the death of liberalism, but I’m not thrilled about Conservativism taking its place as the dominant ideology.
I say good for them. Go for it. Dating is too stressful for me anyway.
But I’m also a 30+ progressive with a son and ex so I also recognize that there are bigger fish to fry than getting laid.
OR…you could just have sex and start families with men who support women’s rights?
I have a feeling this extremist “solution” is just disguised misandry from a bunch of extremist feminists.
Ah well, thanks for selecting yourselves out of the gene pool, I guess?
This ironically helps the right wing cause lol. Right wing men have sex anyway with right wing women, who are not interested in the 4b movement (and there are quite a lot of those, judging by how many voted for trump), so basically this ensure that the majority of future children’s will grow up in a right wing family/environment
It has been idiocracy for a long time now. I doubt this will make a dent in the diluted gene pool.
Most of the men that voted for Trump aren’t having sex anyway.
Coworker is a 54 year old virgin who blames it on the woke agenda.
(He is a total prick.)
having*
Thanks buddy, I fixed it just for you.
haven’t had*
Trump has had 3 wives and at least one additional mistress we know of. There are literally women who wear “you can grab my pussy” shirts
How are you this out of touch with reality?
There are plenty of MAGA men with wives and girlfriends. I’m talking about the ones that don’t.
