Alright, so, something I’ve been talking about with my therapist a lot, but I thoughts folks out here could have interesting povs.
To sum it up, I’m constantly trying to act like a saint (figuratively, I’m an atheist). There’s one exception to this, people holding power and making others miserable in any way.
But basically, you know, this whole mentality of banishing anger, jealousy, egoism, selfishness, greed, desire for power and authority and all that? That’s me.
I don’t mean I manage to do so constantly, but that’s what I strive for.
One could think, and I did think, it was a desire for social praise. But really, when I get praised, which happen a lot, I don’t care and that’s more awkward that anything (like : woa dude, it’s not the Oscars or something, chill out). And little by little, I started to think it didn’t have much to do with being praised, that’s just striving to live as I think it’s better to live. To live a life I’ll me content with when the grim reaper will come and all praises won’t mean anything anymore.
My therapist thinks it’s not really an issue as long as it doesn’t cause myself pain (which it does because I’m deaf to my own needs 50% of the times).
But I don’t see a satisfying way to live apart from that.
One potential misinterpretation I’d like to prevent. It’s a very strong drive, but it doesn’t make me blind. It really doesn’t happen a lot but whenever I’m angry, I’m not feeling guilty. I know why I feel this, it’s just that I didn’t have any other way to manage a situation/feeling. I’ll just strive to do better next time by trying to modify the situation so that anger will not be the most probable answer.
Do you find it weird? Anyone adopting this kind of behavior? Maybe everyone does. It may sound a bit megalomaniac, like hey I’m exceptional, but it really isn’t what I mean. To my own eyes, I’m not a bad or a good person. I’m just trying to be what I want. If somebody tries to be someone different, it’s all fine by me.
TL;DR : Is having high moral standards for one’s self weird or toxic? Does my message actually sound megalomaniac?
You may want to familiarize yourself with the philosophy of Stoicism. It sounds very similar to what you describe. I’d recommend starting with a “sampler” like “The Daily Stoic,” by Ryan Holiday. Epictetus and Marcus Auralius are two of the biggest names in terms of “fathers” of this philosophy.
Don’t go by whatever impression Hollywood or society may have left you with about the word “stoic.” It doesn’t mean “without emotion.”
My caveat to this is that many of the foundational individuals to stoicism, as well as present influencers, are members of the upper class, and while there are a lot of great ideas in there, stoicism can often be distilled into a philosophy of rugged individualism which is more easily achieved with wealth, power, and privilege.
I am of the opinion that stoicism is good, but a disproportional number of those who practice it are often out of touch.
Epictetus was a slave most of his life and then banished at the end. I would disagree with the wealthy comment. Nelson Mandela embraced stoicism to get him through his prison term. I’m not sure where your perception comes from, but a major tenant is not putting emphasis on wealth or material goods.
ETA - my deleted comment above was just me moving this one down to be in the appropriate hierarchy.
Many ancient practitioners of stoicism were wealthy statesmen, including emperors. And, the literate elite were certainly enamored with it. I’m not a historian, but stoicism was shaped by wealthy and powerful people, as was every popular philosophy.
I’m not opposed to it. I like aspects of Stoicism. But, When it comes to wealth, it always rubbed me the wrong way. It seemed so often to me that wealthy stoics make a virtue out of possessing, but not coveting wealth, and in doing so make a vice of dissatisfaction with one’s wealth. For a rich man, this is reasonable. However, a poor man is correct to be dissatisfied. Poor men need to be angry, and to rise up and demand wealth (in my opinion), their pain and anguish is meant to be felt and to stoke action.
Stoicism is not often presented as compatible with this mindset of mine. I’m sure there are types of stoicism which address this, but most influencers seem to present Stoicism though a relatively uncritical lense.
My own philosophy/creed is based on Spinoza. I’ve seen a few parallels drawn between him and stoicism. I’ll definitely read about those. Thank you very much!
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You sound well adjusted.
I do one to probe one point, though… Coukd your motives for living this way be pride? A feeling that you being able to live up to your own (self-described as “high”) moral standards is something that makes you better than others?
The reason I ask: it’s not a bad thing to feel a sense of pride for having control over yourself, but it can be a weakness to obtaining true happiness because it also depends on the performance of other people. (If someone else exhibits more self-mastery than you, would that make you feel less happy about your own performance?)
If pride isn’t a factor, it sounds like you’re in a good spot.
I can’t rule out pride being part a factor, it would be presomptuous, but I don’t feel that way. For a simple reason : I’m kinda unable to feel good or bad about myself. I can’t hold myself in high or low regard.
My impression, but maybe I’m wrong, is that I strive for some things and want to realize them fully. But other people may strive for something else entirely. It’s… hard, if not impossible to compare, don’t you think? I think I feel that way.
I think that’s a good sign tbh
I’ve taken pride in the amount of garlic I’ve managed to accrue for the garlic festival tomorrow. Your pile is looking a bit paltry
I’m actually a bit surprised… my stock is pretty down from selling you so much over the past weeks.
It doesn’t matter, though; I have enough for the festival and I’m planning to rake in the big bucks like I usually do.
I sure hope nobody undercuts your prices
Oh, me too. I hadn’t thought of that, but that would be terrible if it happened
Perfection is exhausting. I struggle with it. My brain tells me that if I’m not the perfect friend or know the right things no one will like me. It has consumed my life so far and has lead me to make very bad and disastrous choices.
More than that though, it’s boring. I am so tired of spending my life trying to figure out what the right action is. I would much rather have fun with friends or rewarding sex or find an interesting personal project to work on.
But… There wouldn’t be any contradiction between trying your best to do the right thing and rewarding sex/finding a projets you’re passionate about. Or is there?
There is a difference between trying to do the right thing and doing nothing because it’s not perfect. I tend to let perfect lead me to inaction or passivity far too often at the cost of my own interests.
I’ve taken to trying to do things good enough rather than right and it’s helped a lot
Ah, yes you’re right. And I think I feel the same. I can strive for perfection and know the best I can do is the best solution within my reach. Then, well, that’s the way to go.
An interesting question, thanks for asking it. I’m guessing I’m not the only one thinking about their own behaviour in framing an answer.
Two questions for you:
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You accidentally drop a plate in the kitchen and it smashes. How do you feel? Are you angry? Frustrated that you’ve behaved less than perfectly?
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Your friend does the same thing. How do you feel then?
If you’re like me and more likely to be forgiving to them than yourself for what is obviously an accident, why?
Why do you treat yourself harsher than yourself?
For me, it’s because at some level I consider myself better than them so shouldn’t have made such a mistake, even though at other levels, I think almost everyone else is better than me. Looking at my own mind logically for just this scenario, I have to conclude it cannot be trusted on the matter of self image. I think that’s accurate.
And how do you define behaving perfectly? That’s a subjective standard, you cannot achieve it to everyone’s satisfaction. You’ve set yourself up for failure - that doesn’t feel healthy, it feels like a trap set that’s impossible not to walk into. I’m pretty sure nobody trustworthy has ever has a moment of absolute clarity that allows them to answer all these questions satisfactorily - I’m getting old now and as far as I can see, we’re all just trying to figure this stuff out as best we can.
There’s the phrase - be kind to yourself. As I’ve got older, I think that’s more true than ever. I’ve tried to honour it, alongside being kind to others. I don’t always succeed, but I figure that as long as I’m trying, it’s /good enough/.
Like you, I’m an Athiest. I’m not living to a standard to score points. I try not to mostly live within society’s norms because I’m selfish, and it’s easier than not doing so. Upset people cause fuss. Breaking laws has consequences. I dislike fuss so I try not to cause it.
I hope you find your way. I think your therapist is on the right track, but what answers are right for you aren’t always clear to see.
Hmmm… If I drop a plate and it smashes, I won’t feel much. Maybe a bit pissed for 5 secs if I’m in a hurry. I’ll just take another. If a friends does it, I won’t react in any specific way. In both cases, there’s no… moral question involved for me, I think. Do you think there could be?
I’m striving to be as just and kind as it is possible in a given situation. And sincerely, I truly think I’m doing this for myself. Well, it’s complicated since I’m also the kind of person who tries to please everyone he loves. But… I feel my reward is not any praises, praises are bland, they don’t understand what is at play. Not points but searching for the best behavior, nourishing the best ideas, giving minimal place to the others.
I sincerely think I’m not considering myself better or worse than anyone. My way is a moral one. A certain of moral, as well. So that’s what I strive for. I totally admit other people could strive for something else entirely and I wish them luck in this, except if it’s toxic and power hungry.
So since I very rarely compare myself to others, the question of my value compared to theirs makes no sense for me. The question of my own value to my own eyes either. I am. I don’t have to prove anything to anyone, even to myself. Being us enough.
But I find your answer very delicate, wise and kind so thank you very much for writing this, truly!
Thanks for the reply - interesting response. I think I might be projecting my own likely response to the plate question, so in hindsight it’s probably not very useful other than identifying we react differently.
I sort of relate to the OP, except I fail at acting correctly all the time instead of succeeding.
For the plate example, it doesn’t do much for me either because it’s just an accident. If you instead relate something to a level of skill or emotional response, I see it a bit differently. People accuse me of being “too hard on myself” also, but they just don’t understand the situation.
For example: other people are better employees than me. It doesn’t matter how hard I work, I cannot match their output. So I sometimes work extra unpaid hours to help ease the burden from my competent coworkers.
Another example: Many people are able to just not react when someone acts like a dick to them. I have a tendency to react, which is wrong.
Another example: most people have other things going on and many difficulties in their lives. I have no difficulties or complications, so I have no right to complain or do things incorrectly whereas others do.
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You didn’t mention it, but have you considered how it would feel if you had a bad day and didn’t live up to this standard?
You’re framing it like a moral philosophy, but feeling anger is not a morally bad thing. Neither is jealousy, or selfishness, at times. It’s just part of the human experience, and we can avoid it most of the time, but occasionally we’re going to need to focus on ourselves and our needs and our feelings.
Similarly, it’s impossible to avoid having an ego 100% of the time. Honestly, it sounds like this quality is part of your identity-- would you like yourself less if you lived up to this standard imperfectly?
I don’t think it’s unusual to want to be a good person and to want to control our worst impulses. But to describe it as “trying to act like a saint”, and saying you’re “deaf to your own needs”-- those are concerning statements.
I don’t think anyone can speak for you or guess what’s going on from the outside. But if I were you, I’d be exploring if there’s fear underlying these impulses. Fear of judgment: how do you think the world would perceive you if you stopped being so strict about it? Fear of badness: how does it feel when you have a bad day and you fail to be perfect? Do you resent yourself? Fear of impurity: do you feel like other people are bad when they have these natural reactions? Do you fear being like other people who are experiencing and dealing with normal feelings?
Well… If I had a bad day… that’s it. From quitting smoking, I understood this : There’s no virtue in guilt. Guilt will always make thing worse. The best and only thing to do is to fix what makes you guilty and if you can’t, get a good night of sleep.
When I wrote trying to act like a saint, it was a bit ironical, like I was trolling myself. But in practice, well, it looks quite similar.
But I’m trying to keep a calm mind. I learnt froo’ Spinoza a very emancipating way of thinking : “… as much as it is currently on oneself to”.
I’ve felt jealousy two times I think. Well. It means in the context I was in, given all the determinations of the situation, I could not feel anything beside jealousy. Then I’ll try to change the situation, playing on whatever parameters I can, to diminish the jealousy in favor of something else I feel more aligned to. It will or won’t work. If it doesn’t, well, no need to panick or feel guilty, I’ll have to try another way.
To answer your questions, the fear of judgment would certainly qualify. Fear of badness not so much. It’s always “as much as I can”. But some days, I can very little. I’ll try my best to do this very little.
And I don’t judge other people (as long as they’re not bosses, politicians, capitalists, etc). Even if they don’t care about morals as I do, they can still be decent individuals and strive with all their being got something else. Beauty, woodworking, fixing society, music, getting enough money to pay their mother a nice retirement house, becoming skilled martial artists, hiking in the country, finding nice mushrooms. I respect all those and recognize my brothers and sisters in them. My own morally-centered way is just… a way along others, it’s not better but it’s the one I’m drawn to.
Do you see what I mean?
Honestly, this feels like you’re setting the bar way too high. Trying to eliminate every negative feeling or impulse, like anger, jealousy, egoism, or desire for power, isn’t just unrealistic, it’s too much. Life is messy, and part of being human is dealing with these emotions in healthy ways, not pretending they don’t exist or trying to suppress them entirely.
What happens when you suppress emotions like anger or jealousy? They don’t just disappear, they get buried and eventually come out in unexpected or unhealthy ways. It sounds like you’re putting yourself under a lot of pressure to be perfect, and while aiming to be better isn’t a bad thing, it’s easy to burn out or become emotionally numb when you hold yourself to impossible standards.
At the end of the day, what’s wrong with a little bit of ego, some healthy ambition, or even feeling angry when something goes wrong? These things aren’t inherently bad or toxic, they’re just part of being human. Overemphasizing moral purity can cause you to miss out on the richness of life and emotional depth.
And honestly, why is megalomania such a bad thing? If you’re fully aware of your drive and you’re not hurting anyone, is it really so bad to think you’re capable of achieving something extraordinary? If you’re not deluded about your abilities and keep it in check, what’s the harm in believing you’re on a higher level than most?
I think it’s pretty normal to hold yourself to a standard you don’t impose on others, and I do think it’s somewhat problematic, like perfectionism is. If you get mad at yourself for messing up and not being inhumanly perfect then yeah that’s not good. You are a person too, and should give yourself consideration.
If you just mean you try to think before you act and consider how your words and actions affect others, I would hope everyone does that!
Moralities aside, some find it liberating to stop caring what is & isn’t considered “weird.” Conformity definitely has its advantages, but at least consider the possibility that, for you, it may not be worth the costs. Take it from Al, or DEVO themselves for that matter.
As for morality, I’m not really a fan of it in its conventional senses. Philosophy prof. Hans-Georg Moeller, author of The Moral Fool: A Case for Amorality.
In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with being a bit angry or jealous sometimes.
You shouldn’t throw your rage at the people around you or let your actions be driven by anger alone. But there are a lot of things one can very justly be angry about. I would even argue that some things one should feel angry about. Like when someone is mistreated.
Denying yourself negative emotions is not entirely healthy in my opinion, it’s more about the way you act on them (or don’t act on them).
You’re right. And I make exceptions for these, I think I wrote it in my first post. When someone is mistreated, there’s no morality, for me, except an intervention, an angry one if need be.
I don’t think I understand what you’re talking about. Perhaps some examples would help.
I do think some people hold themselves to too low of a standard, though. There’s a song I like that has the line "I don’t want you to romanticize falling the fuck apart ". I think some people are just like “well, I ghosted my friend and didn’t do my tasks at work and didn’t feed my cat but life is hard am I right? No other way I could be. Time to go drink alone and watch TV”
Some example would include helping strangers in multiple way, try to manage conflicts graciously, house homeless people, prep food for my roommates everyday, try my best to forgive people when they’re rude, standing for a bullied colleague, bring pastries to colleagues, drive give money to as many homeless people as I can, intervene in street fights to separate people, etc.
Thanks for your answer!
That stuff all sounds nice, I would just say to make sure you don’t burn yourself out or keep others from reciprocating your kindness.
I’m not that nice, though we do sometimes let homeless people stay, always have because we know some, I am happier when the workload at home is balanced between us, wouldn’t intervene in a fight because that’s too dangerous.
So I think if you are doing things to be selfless, like at the expense of yourself, watch out. As I noted in my original reply, you need to take care of yourself too, giving too much doesn’t work out better for anyone. You are a person too, just like the people you are trying to help.
Your last point is… where it all kinds falls off. I’m trying to learn about it. Be careful about myself. 8ve understood that’s what I have to learn, but it will take time. I understood it’s important, thanks to my therapist, thought. Thanks so much for your message!
I’m not a therapist or any variety of professional on the topic. I will tell you it sounds unhelpful to remove emotions. I know there are similar practices in things like Stoicism. But many people take those practices to extremes. You don’t sound like you’re doing anything like 100% extreme about emotional suppression but you are probably overdoing it like 80% extreme. If that makes sense.
Emotions are useful. They’re informational reactions to the world around us. I’m an extremely emotional person (big happies, big mads, big sads, etc) and sometimes letting that loose is a huge problem. I can make myself physically sick if I don’t regulate my emotions and reactions. But I learned and practiced how to feel my emotions and then let them pass, rather than trying to stomp them out entirely. Which never really works. Suppression just pushes the problems to your future self. It’s not a relief or release.
So I guess I’m trying to say, you’re not at all wrong for what you’re trying to accomplish. But I think you’re probably not going to succeed or improve (in the way that you want) going about it the way you have been. I’d recommend finding counselors who understand how to teach effective emotional regulation techniques, or practice meditation.
I believe I try to live my life in a very similar way. I believe there are a lot of us who try to do this. But I do not believe everyone does that. There are many people who are malicious and they know they are. Also I feel the same about pride and praise. In the past I was pointed out I hold myself in too high regard which can result in me beeing patronizing. And I try to work on that since then. Because I feel this is not right and I do want to strive for right.
Especially you wrote in comments something like: You try to do your best considering your environment, your own limitations and even your own weakneses.
So given that, I believe you are making one mistake. I would like to expand on your limitations part.
If you feel this behavior makes you forget your needs this in not “the best you could do”. This is the same as you forgetting to sleep.
If you are forgetting about yourself like rest, having fun, eat properly, maintaining your mental health. This is not your best or “perfect behaviour” in long term. Because of ignoring your own needs you will not be able to do your best tomorrow or in 10 years or will live few years less to do good or you will not have friends or be part of a community to achieve even better things together. Something like that.
Also another thought popped in my mind I do not have an answer for and I would like to see your perspective on that. I try to avoid as little responsibility as I can. And I see myself as one who is trying to do his best. But. But when I look on myself objectively I live quite a normal life: I have a job and a family and some hobbies. I try to be there for my friends and family. So asking myself. How is this the best I can do? I am not volunteering or anything like that? So is this “feeling” I am trying my best just a cover for comfort, so I do not have to do some real sacrifices for community?
I’m not OP but, I think it says a lot about the kind of person you are if you’re even just thinking about trying your best constantly. Plus your life honestly sounds close to the ideal that most people here are chasing, if you’re content with that that, then I don’t think there’s anything wrong with continuing to live your life as you fit. Also, I think everyone always has things they could do better and that’s just how it is
This probably makes the most sense. Although thinking is easy. Doing stuff is hard.
First, kind stranger, thank you very much for you answer. It’s quite funny that I used to be quite patronizing too until I went through a major depression and became a slightly different person.
And yes I think I see what you mean. My therapist recently told me something quite close, but I’m not sure I’ll find the words to translate it to English. But yes, clearly, I’m trapped in a “overdoing-collapse” cycle I still need to learn to manage in a better way. Although… maybe I’m making progress in this regard, I tend to collapse less and less heavily, and I sometimes take breaks.
The thought you brought up us very interesting, and my own answer us quite simple. To contextualize, I’ve been active in a few community organizations in the past, then it all stopped when I moved to another city. Now, I just happen to like people I sometimes meet and try to behave as I described. But it’s quite close to a normal life too. Closer than before at least.
And so, I met a thought similar to yours a few days ago, an answer came from my heart : “I don’t know. But what I know is that wishing I was something/someone else that the thing/person I am, trying to force myself to do something I currently can’t do is preparing myself for a life of guilt and misery, and likely make my loved ones pay for this guilt and misery. And that can’t be good”.
How does this sound to you? I’m not sure about it, but I’ve sticked with this answer ever since.
This answer is very good and is consistent with with your belief to consider your limitations.
However I see myself somehow different since I do not have depression or other mental issues I am aware of.
So I believe I could take some extra time to volunteer and I hope I will be able to bring myself to do just that. But since I have a young baby it will of course be time limited. So I will probably start small and just take a bag to my walks and pickup some trash.
Although making this conversation feels like bragging to myself that I am a good person (by trying my best).
But hey this conversation is still very interesting and I would like to keep it going.
Do you believe religions/churches are meant to be just communities of people who try to be the best versions of themselves? (Of course in different ways and for different reasons - like to achieve eternal life)
Also how easy do you find changing your character to match what you would like to be? Eg. Becoming not patronizing.
I found it somehow very easy to come from me being a geek and being somewhat awkward around kids to be the funny uncle. Or by not liking animals to now owning a cat.
I like this conversation very much too. And I like the way you describe your will to volunteer and your conception of the steps ahead.
As for religions, I’m not certain. I can really like and admire people who live and love deeply something in the religious faith. Alone or with others. But communities… I’m not saying social control is bad in itself but this type of social control is rather frightening to me.
And changing… What a topic! Did you ever try to measure the time it takes you to change on a specific aspect? It’s a very strange yet reassuring experience. I used to do this a lot, a bit less nowadays, but for example, I’d write :
“learn to handle praise to be as kind as possible with others, understanding it as” somehow I kinda like something in you" and accept the kindness but be unsettled by the praise itself, or, better, make yourself truly incapable of understanding it as a praise"
in a notebook, because it was a very often present in my thoughts and then, after writing, forget about it. Let things unfold organically without giving it much thoughts. An indeterminate time later, I’d be praised for school performance, for example, and… somehow, in a way I couldn’t fully understand, I both felt I understood the praise and I didn’t really know what to make of it, all the sudden.
Then, a few weeks later, after processing the event, grab my notebook and write : “8 months”.
It’s quite interesting, and gives a little sense of : “Hmmm… this may take quite a time, but let’s see when/how/by which ways I’ll try to get there… or at least somewhere close!”
It sounds like scrupulosity OCD.
long as its for your own approval its fine. maybe a tad ocd but fine
Ocd is a nice lead indeed ^^
well, it is if the “o” isnt as “o” as it usually is
Archers: nervously laughing
