I get that this is not the hill to die on in this meme, but the tracks should really be reversed.
This implies “doing nothing” will only sacrifice Palestine, while “pulling the lever” (i.e. voting) will sacrifice Palestine+all other at risk groups.
Otherwise, this really is a classic trolly dilemma. We can’t stop the train and someone is going to get killed.
Yeah, but that would require an understanding of the trolley problem as a philosophical dilemma, and how are you gonna use that to yell at people you hate?
Hasn’t everyone watched the Good Place?
This meme also implies that the current US strategy is not to fund Ukraine just enough to take Russia to Hell with it. It also implies the Democrats don’t rely on anti-LGBTQ votes because one single comment made by Waltz. This meme also implies Democrat are pushing laws to combat police brutality (at least fix this at local or state levels in cities where they hold the majority).
The Democrats here now have worse arguments than the tankies.
Kamala literally used to fight for sexual assault victims and such
Walz used to fight for his school kids
Trump bragged on Howard Stern about perving on young girls and is a convicted rapist
You do realize there is both a house and Senate right, and unless they have control of both, they can’t necessarily just push laws. That’s what politics is
And in the past few years, the Republicans have only been interested in sabotage it seems (if Trump loses this election, there is a better chance they will be more willing to work when Democrats)
They’re not relying on this shit. The most commonly cited reason even by Republicans voting for Harris is that Trump is a dictator that wants to ruin the country
Right, and one of the main, basic ways in which one can consider the trolley problem is that, regardless of the difference in outcomes, pulling the lever makes you morally responsible for what happens.
Also not pulling the lever makes you morally responsible if you “stand by and do nothing”
That’s another way of looking at it
Decisions have consequences, doing nothing is a decision.
“doing nothing is a decision” is a legitimate position you can argue for, but it is not some kind of settled moral fact that you can just assert without any justification.
It’s less a moral fact and more a fact of life. If you don’t pay bills you get late fees then stop getting the service. If you don’t study you don’t do as well as studying a little or a lot. If you don’t make a move on the girl you like someone else will and/or she’ll move on. If you don’t stop facism…
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
In politics the don’t vote and vote third party are essentially the same of doing nothing until ftfp is fixed.
That’s literally the point
Unless the lever is in another country and you’re just paying the guy pulling the lever, then “there’s nothing I can do”.
That’s hotly debated by moral philosophers and ethicists.
Yes that’s my point exactly, people love to dogpile on anyone who doesn’t jump at the easy consequentialist solution, but there are other valid interpretations
We can’t stop the train and someone is going to get killed.
We really fucking can, it just requires more people to care enough to be willing to do more than the bare fucking minimum of participating in this theatre those profiting from war have set out for us, and look outside of the system you have indoctrinated to believe isn’t only the default, but the best (and if this doesn’t demonstrate that fact to you, I honestly think you’re beyond help).
I fully believe the system we live in is broken, and is nowhere near “the best”. But the system does have many people who are indoctrinated, and many who benefit from it too greatly to make me believe we have sufficient time to derail it before some of the death implied in this meme comes.
But if you have a plan more tangible then telling people “wake up sheeple!”, then I’m ready to hear it. And if it’s actually convincing, then I’m ready to help.
But randomly telling people they have been indoctrinated, declaring it to be self evident, and then accusing them of being beyond help if they don’t see it, is nothing more than pointless moral masturbation. Maybe it makes you feel better, but it’s not helping nor convincing anyone.
Let me know what your plan is when you have it figured out. In the mean time, I’m going to go back to helping who I can.
anybody on the left withholding their vote at this point fundamentally disbelieves in a system with exactly two discrete options, so this type of post doesn’t persuade anybody
fundamentally disbelieves in a system with exactly two discrete options
except the polls are exactly about two discrete options. “not believing” in it is like not believing in gravity. it doesn’t make you philosopher, it makes you dumb moron.
which is what people said before biden was replaced
Anyone who doesn’t “believe” that we have the system we have is beyond reaching
Yeah I don’t “believe” our system best serves the common good. But I sure as hell will vote for Kamala because it’s very clear that is my best course of action to serve the common good. Voting for a third party won’t lead to a system where more parties have a voice, it will help Trump get into power, where only a single party has a voice, and any other voice will be silenced
Voting for a third party won’t lead to a system where more parties have a voice…
Yes it will. If a 3rd party gets 5% of the national vote they qualify for federal election funding which would make them more viable next time around.
which is what people said before biden was replaced
Tbf, the Democratic party nomination process is not a 2-party system. They did say that back then, and they were wrong to do so - hoping that people wouldn’t notice that difference.
But now we are talking about the real deal, the thing that they were trying to falsely tie an equivalence to, the actual vote for the actual presidency. Democracy in the USA may not last the decade regardless, but voting one way is for ditching it in favor of Project 2025 and among other things, ironically enough even moar-er support for genocide, while the other is a vote for hopefully a little better than the current status quo.
Both offer short term pain and long term destruction… but not equally so.
they’re not suggesting a third party candidate can win
they’re suggesting that the democratic platform can shift
How though? And more importantly, why? Like, what “leeway” does Kamala have to say anything different than she already has, which she could shift to?
Maybe after she wins yes, but at this point the choices are Trump vs. not-Trump, so I don’t see how a vote for a third-party would help in this case. At one point, with Bernie Sanders vs. Hillary Clinton there were different thoughts about how a vote for Bernie would cause Hillary to shift more towards the left - but most of that again gets back to the nomination process, not the final show-down between the two parties, and after that was a disastrous example of how voting for the 3rd-party candidate didn’t help the democratic party shift, except in the sense that it handed literally hundreds and hundreds of judicial nominees to the Republican party that, among other things, ended the protections of Roe v. Wade.
Two months ago the situation with Biden was VERY DIFFERENT than the situation now faced, with Kamala. Back then we could - and yay, did! - shift and pivot to adjust to the harsh realities that he was not capable of running again. We very likely would have lost if he had. But that was then, and this is now.
Anyway I think that I’m preaching to the converted here, so maybe I just misunderstood something that you said. Tbh, I don’t agree with your take on the OP - I think it really does show voting not for a 3rd party but voting for the other side b/c “bOtH sIdEs ArE tHe SaMe” (the title of the post), specifically wrt genocide. I think that b/c there are only 2 tracks shown… Also, the genocide being mentioned implicitly in the graphic (“but worse…”) shows how its focus is on short-term effects immediately after the election, not long-term ones about telling the Democratic party how the American populace would very much enjoy it if it would become more liberal if they would please and thank you very much.
Like, what “leeway” does Kamala have to say anything different than she already has, which she could shift to?
a significant enough chunk of her voter base credibly withholding a vote based on a desired policy change would force a shift toward that desired policy change
i’d say biden’s platform in 2020 was significantly more left-wing than clinton’s in 2016
But that was then, and this is now.
this is the same “it’s too late” or “it’s too unprecedented” or whatever you want to pick that was exactly the justification for biden being kept in as long as he was
I think it really does show voting not for a 3rd party but voting for the other side b/c “bOtH sIdEs ArE tHe SaMe” (the title of the post), specifically wrt genocide.
people the post targets aren’t voting red. they’re just not voting at all, or voting third party. it’s an argument to a position held by an insignificant fraction of the left-anti-harris crowd.
it doesn’t address the core issue they have. they’d say that continuing to vote for the least-bad party is the reason both parties are bad, and that at a certain point you have to attempt to force a more radical change.
Months ago was the time to make changes. Yeah, that’s what they said then too, except it was wrong then, as proven by the fact that the changes did happen.
Even if the words sound similar, now really is different than then. Voting has already begun - the fight to pick candidacies is long over and done. It is now long past time to pick a side.
If you want to vote 3rd party then go ahead - nobody is stopping you. Aside from all the news about some 3rd-party candidates receiving money from and having demonstrated ties to Russia (look it up if you haven’t heard), the Democrats do not seem to be taking such rhetoric as a credible “threat” though, for whatever reason. Probably bc they really are the best hope for the Palestinian people, as the latter recently confirmed by putting out a statement saying why they finally chose to endorse Kamala Harris’s campaign. You can ofc accuse the Dems of being very naive and disconnected from their voting base - that would be extremely difficult to argue against - and yet facts are facts.
See e.g. this article: https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/post/17919598.
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You misread, try it again.
Sorry what do you think they meant then?
Believing in something and believing something exists or is a certain state are two very different things.
You can believe that this despotic duopoly exists in such a way that there are only two outcomes, without believing such a system will ever function.
I was going to make this, but put Palestine before the fork. And then put the person away from the lever refusing to participate when pulling the lever would move it to a track with nobody on it. Or pulling a different lever that does nothing (labeled Jill Stein).
Palestine is and will continue to get run over regardless who wins the presidency, so they aren’t exactly relevant to the choice. It’s not a real trolley problem because it’s not a trade for different people. It’s just “let the trolley run over Ukrainians, lgbtq+ people, minorities, and immigrants” or… don’t. And then refusing to touch the lever because it somehow makes you “love genocide” to have anything to do with the trolley, even if to mitigate the damage.
Please also put someone on the trolley with control over the brake and label them: Israeli leaders, military, and citizens. Since the trolley doesn’t actually need to go anywhere, regardless of whether the US track-switching money/arms are sent.
A Trump defeat could have been guarantee long ago by Biden by simply not sending Weapons and Ammo to Israel.
This tram has already been running over Palestinians and Lebanese for over a year and it’s Biden to keeps sending it down that line branch.
Both the framing of this as a false dichotomy and the claim that the power to switch the line is in the hands of common people - all of which are the core of Democrat Propaganda at the moment - have always been lies.
This is literally true but also irrelevant. I’m pissed that democrats are sacrificing our democracy for a ethnostate’s expansion and genocide.
But that doesn’t negate the fact that we have the power to keep literal fascists that are threatening violence if we don’t vote for them out of office. We have genocide on the one hand vs many genocides plus project 2025 plus an even worse Supreme Court plus a vengeful Trump with a new expansive presidential immunity on the other plus more Ukrainians dying plus Taiwan being handed over to China plus Trump selling our country to the highest bidder legally since the Supreme Court said that was a Ok, etc.
I picked genocide in Palestine (Harris will hopefully actually threaten Israel is in power) rather than the other choice. It sucks ass. But Trump getting power is just so much fucking worse.
We don’t know that. Remember that Lemmy is one hell of an echo chamber. Everyone doe6s think the same way as people on here.
Please do, I’d love to be able to just slap that image down whenever “bUt tHe gEnOcIdE!” comes up around here.
I think a good representation would be to put the trolley already running over Palestine and then having to choose between keeping things as they are or adding the others + speeding up the train.
Or, changing the premise a little further, show the person as choosing between continuation, upgrade and using his own body to derail the trolley.
Please do make it! Just wait a day or so maybe?
Perfect, except there wouldn’t be anyone on the lower track. But definitely gets the point across.
Here you go:
I see .ml found this post. There are almost as many dumb comments as there are downvotes.
They be like “but if the top people are being ran over, it’ll radicalize them into communist ideology, and no way could a surveillance state, that is being promised by Trump and co. to to be even more extensive than the current one, combined with the promise of using the military against protestors, ever hinder the ability of a nation-wide revolution”.
I’m so glad that deteriorating material conditions radicalize people into left-wing ideologies, here I was worried that educating people was what radicalized them into left-wing ideologies. That’s why whenever I go home to Appalachia for a visit everyone there is wearing red. Th-that is the reason they’re so politically fond of red, r-right…?
Does reporting them work?
As far as I know, being dumb isn’t against the community’s rules, so no. That would just be bothering the mods for no reason.
I read something along the lines of “Report, do not engage” but maybe it’s more for obvious shills?
Thanks for the heads up though!
“Report, do not engage” is for trolls. These people are true believers, they just believe in something deeply immoral and senseless, because they think they won’t suffer the consequences of fascism.
Thanks for clearing that out, and yes, as I went to school and also grew up alongside the soviet fucking union I’m quite aware that these poor souls are quite delusional.
It’s quite interesting for me how they can hold those beliefs. They’re so engaged too.
Almost a shame they are not a bit more tame because now it’s hard or even impossible to engage in a constructive discussion with them.
Not engaging is still valid for idiots, not just trolls.
How are people supposed to react to a meme arguing that genocide is inevitable?
Not rejecting reality to throw a fit and ensure as many people are killed as possible instead would be a good start.
If you endorse a genocide because you’re scared it would otherwise happen to you, you’re still a Nazi. The Jews in the Nazi party in the 1940s were not victims, they were just Nazis.
If you endorse a genocide because you’re scared it would otherwise happen to you, you’re still a Nazi. The Jews in the Nazi party in the 1940s were not victims, they were just Nazis.
Don’t worry - the Terminally Online Leftists will change their tune from “It won’t change the election” to “If Palestine gets genocided by Israel, it’s only fair minorities in the US are genocided too”.
That last bit isn’t really a fair characterization. We don’t have to invent things people will say. There are already enough voices in this dialog.
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Wtf. I’ve never seen so many people annoyed that their fellows are protesting genocide. How do you take a situation like this and make it a fucking trolley meme.
I don’t think people are saying you shouldn’t protest the genocide. You should! But it’s stupid to not vote for Harris over it because letting Trump win doesn’t just throw women, LGBTQ people, etc. under the bus, it also makes the genocide of Palestinians even worse.
But it’s stupid to not vote for Harris
It’s stupid to vote for someone supporting a genocide
It’s stupid letting trump win.
Yes. Luckily life isn’t a meme and you are offered infinite possibilities so you can fight off trump without having to support criminals.
Lol
What I have seen with my eyes in the last 12 months is so horrifying that I cannot imagine how it could be worse.
The government is spending billions in propaganda, half the people here are brainwashed and sockpuppets of their government
The Kremlin is spending even more, making people sockpuppets of them.
Edit: here they come!
Not true actually, the country that spend more money in war and in propaganda is USA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures
Russia cyberwar capabilities look weak compared to what the US has
The Biden/Harris admin is literally doing genocide to appease a foreign lobbying group (AIPAC)
The original argument was “Both sides are evil/bad and we need to get rid of both.” These Democrats are trolling non-stop. Hopefully, they’ll be gone in a few weeks.
How do you take a situation like this and make it a fucking trolley meme.
You have to be a bigot who is happy to sacrifice others for your own comfort.
We have some very bad people; we have some sick people, radical-left lunatics. And it should be very easily handled, if necessary, by National Guard, or if really necessary, by the military, because they can’t let that happen.
- Donald Trump
“Oh, but I don’t actually go outside - so he doesn’t mean me,” he said communistly.
I mean…yeah…but also fuck the democrats. We shouldn’t be stuck in this position of genocide and fascism there and here or “just” genocide and fascism there. There are certainly degrees of being a piece of shit, but at this point, we are splitting hairs.
“splitting hairs” could mean the difference between up to a couple million people dying, and potentially tens of millions of people or more dying. That’s not splitting hairs at that point. That’s not “po-tay-toe/po-tah-toe” anymore. Anyone arguing otherwise is either brainwashed or is arguing in bad faith.
Imagine thinking that there’s no difference between one genocide and several, simultaneous genocides.
Bad faith? It is bad faith to find any genocide “acceptable,” while simultaneously becoming angry at anyone pointing out that genocide is unacceptable. Seriously, what the actual fuck? This is white liberalism in its most concentrated lethal form. Ironically, it’ll eventually lead to the genocides you don’t find acceptable. If it wasn’t for this shit mentality, we wouldn’t be here.
So, what’s your plan for the election? Not voting, sitting in a corner yelling “it’s unacceptable!!!”?
Or voting the lesser of two evils and working to better the system?
The democratic parties of 1920s Germany also were full of racists, antisemites and union busters, but not voting or worse voting for the NSDAP only achieved one thing - the Nazis power grab.
So what’s your plan?
Why are all of you so fucking illiterate? I am voting for Harris. I’m angry my choice is ANY genocide at all.
If you are voting for Harris then you must agree that both sides are indeed not “the same” which is the entire point of this post.
Boost for lemmy doesn’t show profile pics and usernames all look the same so I might have overlooked where you said that. Also your comment I replied to reads like that wasn’t the case. I apologize for the mix up, but still feel your hostility is unwarranted and will now disengage.
i swallowed my self-respect and did so for hillary and biden. never again. noway i am voting for these child butchers. in next elections they will just shuffle the tracks and will be again harassing us for “lesser evil”.
i will take the downvotes, they can all go to hell. ah well genocide enablers will go there anyway.
Damn, you’ve been showing off a lot of privilege, my dude. I don’t usually like invoking that concept, but you’re dripping all over the floor. Maybe it’s time for you to stop and think about the fact that it easy to paint everyone with a broad brush and say, “it’s okay if the body count goes up by a few million, I’ll just wait until a better candidate comes along” when you’re not the one on the firing line.
It’s easy to say that when you’re not the one who may get bounced from country to country as you try to seek refuge from a genocidal dictator.
It’s easy to say that when you’re not the one who’s going to have to rip their entire life apart just to survive.
It’s easy to say that when you’re not the one who’s family is going to be split up as a result.
Like, feel free to criticize the Democrats as much as you want, I hate them too. But I don’t have the privilege to just sit around and wait for Mr(s) Perfect to arrive. I may have a matter of months, if not weeks before I have to flee the country.
So fuck you and your “both sides” bullshit. It takes some serious privilege, or at the very least, the mindset of a bucket of crabs to say something like that.
I’m trans and so fucking sick of people here using my existence as an excuse to support/ignore genocide. My rights are not more important than those of Palestinians and anyone saying that they support me while killing brown muslim people abroad will not get my support. The interesting part is that Harris won’t even plainly say she supports trans peoples rights, she has to dance around it and say it in the most vague meaningless terms. You know that trans people are the next in line to be thrown in front of the bus by the dems.
I’m trans. I live in Texas. What do you want me to say?
Nothing, just don’t assume that everyone refusing to vote for a genocide supporter is privileged and don’t speak for me.
I stopped reading that screed after you accused me of privilege. Again, another lemmy illiterate. I am voting for Harris. I’m angry at those with privilege who’ve made this the only choice I have.
Yeah? But all you said was “fuck the democrats”. There are enough people on here who say “fuck the democrats” but mean “vote for someone else” that you can’t leave that ambiguity.
I didn’t, you just can’t read well.
Alright, since you’re confused, let me try to break this down for you.
Here’s your original message:
I mean…yeah…but also fuck the democrats. We shouldn’t be stuck in this position of genocide and fascism there and here or “just” genocide and fascism there. There are certainly degrees of being a piece of shit, but at this point, we are splitting hairs.
Okay, so
I mean…yeah…
Okay, this could mean two things: you agree, or you are acknowledging someone’s position
but
Alright, so, now we know that if you agree, then you have a disagreement on how it’s presented. Alternatively, you have acknowledged their position and are disagreeing with it.
also
Again, this doesn’t tell me whether or not you agree, this just says you have something to say in addition to a prior statement (“I mean…yeah…but”). It still doesn’t indicate whether or not you actually agree or if you’re just acknowledging their position.
fuck the democrats.
Alright, so here’s an actual position. Not unreasonable imo; however, it is a very hostile statement.
We shouldn’t be stuck in this position of genocide and fascism there and here or “just” genocide and fascism there.
I agree with this too, absolutely a reasonable position to take. However, you’ve yet to clarify if you actually agree with OP, or if you’re taking an opposing side. If you think that it should be obvious by this point, you’re right.
In a sane environment this statement shouldn’t be ambiguous.
In a sane environment someone would read this and think that you’re describing the Dems (making an assumption here) as being the lesser of two evils.
However, this statement also indicates disapproval of the Democrats, which, again, is a reasonable position to take in a sane world. However, there are enough people who say this as a way to put people back on the fence (or even get them to vote for a different party) that I still can’t rule anything out at this point.
There are certainly degrees of being a piece of shit, but at this point, we are splitting hairs.
Now you’re reducing the idea of Palestinians being genocided vs Palestinians, LGBT, PoC, women seeking abortions, etc being genocided to “po-tay-toe/po-tah-toe”. That’s what splitting hairs usually refers to. It’s needlessly debating something considered trivial or mundane. I think that is what is getting you into trouble.
Implying that the difference between one group and many groups being subjected to genocide is not a trivial thing, and it casts doubt on the rest of your statement. Personally it makes me think you’re trying to argue for voting 3rd party during this election.
So, I can see how you thought your statement was clear, but unfortunately there are enough bad actors on Lemmy that it wasn’t as clear as you thought it was.
Edit: if you want to clarify your position, you could say something like, “fuck the Dems, I hate that Harris is our only option” or “I hate that I feel like I have to vote for Harris”. This way you have clarified that you intend to vote for Harris, or that you agree that Harris is better than Trump, while also voicing your distaste for the Democrats.
Youre stuck in this position and it sure as shit isnt the fault of “democrats”.
Have them change the voting system then, because not voting/voting 3rd party isn’t going to get you there either, and will make it far worse. Having this attitude in 2016 already made it far worse.
Youre also going to have to come to the reality that genocide is an American tradition, in the very foundation of its economy. That’s why Americans still have military weapon reveals lmao, and y’all love it
or as the great prophet George Carlin, may peace be upon him, said “Garbage in, Garbage out”
anyone still participating in this broken system believes genocide is an acceptable choice. The only responsible choice is to burn it all to the ground and start again.
Sweet plan, where do we meet up for the “burn it to the ground” option?
And while we are planning, do you think you could consider voting for Kamala, you know, so more of our potential comrades aren’t locked up? Best to shore up our numbers right? Sic semper tyrannis!
“After Hitler, Our Turn”
People who refuse to participate in the democratic process and then complain that it doesn’t work for them are hilarious.
Nice of you to sacrifice all the lives that it will cost to “burn it all down”. The corpses of everyone who isn’t a straight white male will thank you
We’re not people to them, just little tokens to make them feel good about themselves.
what is your plan when it’s all burned down and now you have to fight MAGA for control of the country?
The only responsible choice is to burn it all to the ground and start again.
Huh, funny. Last i heard to achieve this you want to insert someone that have the exact believe that will change the system, and there’s two way to do this: one is to vote in a democratic process, slowly and surely move toward that future one vote at the time; and two is to cause a civil war. People that’s jaded but comfortable in their situation usually want to pick the latter, which mean killing people that’s not on your side and sending young people to die for your cause. Sounds familiar? That’s because it’s what Trump tried last time. Does that sounds responsible to you?
I doubt that’s happening, disparate groups acting in an unconcerted manner aren’t likely to achieve much. They already kill us sleeping in our beds.
One thing I’ve learned this election cycle is how few people have any knowledge of utilitarianism. Genocide is better than genocide+1. Not acting is a moral choice, and frequently a cowardly one.
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That depends on how you define utilitarianism though.
That minority also factors into a utilitarian’s assessment of what will maximize happiness. If 10% of the population hates the 0.1% minority, but oppressing that minority would also harm them, then you have to factor in the relative harm caused to them as well, not just in raw %'s, but also in terms of if the value given to the 10% from their oppression would outweigh the harm done to those being oppressed.
Furthermore, I’d argue most utilitarians would argue that the very hate towards that minority in the first place is what causes harm, not the minority themselves. The best utilitarian action to take would be to reduce the hate for that minority, and increase their acceptableness, rather than oppress that minority to satisfy the 10%. Especially considering we know this tends to not just be a one-time thing, and that hate will likely continue, leading to further oppression over time, and harm not only to the minority, but also to the mental well-being of the 10%. Thus, the best course of action would be to eliminate the hate, not the minority.
Of course, utilitarians aren’t a monolith, but that’s at least how I would interpret the situation.
Honestly, I wonder how much of our disagreements do ultimately come down to moral philosophy. I see a lot of people making this comparison and I’d be happy to put aside the present political situation and step back to discuss a higher level of disagreement.
I am a consequentialist, and I would agree, in principle, that the correct decision in the trolley problem is to pull the lever. But that should always come with an extreme amount of disclaimers. There are no shortage of people throughout history who have made justifications for their actions on the basis of “the ends justify the means,” but often, they turned out to be wrong. To use an example, torture under the Bush administration was claimed to be justified on the basis of getting useful intelligence in order to save lives. But no such intelligence was ever extracted. Really, it was more motivated by revenge, or a desire to be the sort of cool antihero who does the stuff nobody else will that needs to be done, but “the ends justify the means” served as a rationalization. Another example like that (though perhaps more controversial) is the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
The problem with applying the trolley problem to real life is that we are mere human beings of flesh and blood. We have a whole host of cognitive biases that mislead us even when we have the best of intentions. If we give our minds a way to justify things that we know are bad, it gives it an out that allows us to rationalize the irrational and justify the unjustifiable.
There are two practices that are necessary to apply in order to counteract these biases. First, it is necessary to adopt a set of strong moral guidelines based on past experience and historical evidence. Second, it is necessary to regularly practice some form of introspection or meditation in order to better understand where your thoughts and feelings arise from, and how they flow through your mind. Said guidelines do not have to be rigorously adhered to 100% of the time, but they should be respected, and only deviated from after clear, careful consideration, understanding why the guideline exists and why deviation from them is almost always bad.
“Base” consequentialism, where you recognize that pulling the lever in the trolley problem is the correct decision, but simply accept that as a guiding principle, is a terrible moral philosophy, worse than deontology and possibly worse than having completely unexamined moral views. Some of the worst atrocities in history are the result of that sort of “ends justify the means” approach, detached from a set of moral guidelines and detached from humility and self-reflection. I would even say, speaking as a communist, that many of the bad things communists have done in history are a result of that kind of mentality. Following moral rules blindly is preferable to breaking moral rules without first doing the necessary work to be trusted with breaking them.
There’s plenty more I could say on the topic but people always complain about my long posts so I’d better cut myself off there.
Immigrants used to be on top rail, but after four years, they have been placed on both rails, just like the Palestinians. There is no guarantee that the groups placed on the top rail will not be shifted to the bottom rail as well in four years.
Voting for Democrats is always advertised as the lesser of two evils, but it sure seems like the lesser evil is just trying to kill the same groups the greater evil. If they want people to vote for them, the Democrats should start working to save and prevent people from being tied to trolley tracks.
Or at least lie about it.
Plus we have Democrat-run cities implementing AI to spot homeless people, so add that to both rails as well
“Democrat-run cities”
Ya’ll just can’t help yourselves and I love it.
It’s almost as if they have a list of talking points and are told how to phrase simple things to make them further their agenda…
You mean like memes such as this one that deliberately leave out all sorts of context and misrepresent a political issue by oversimplifying it?
Didn’t Kamala already refuse to protect Trans rights? The Dems will put everyone on the tracks if it gets them votes/donations
These are all sort of parody to begin with but the purpose of the trolley dilemma isn’t about the results of the lever switch, it’s about approaching complicity and participation in a system that creates this kind of immoral choice.
But if you have a choice between lots of violence and less violence isn’t it immoral not to try and at least minimize the violence that you have to no power to stop?
I mean that’s why I referred to this as a parody: the point is with the trolley dilemma is that you’re being forced to participate in an immoral choice (the lever), not just that the lever applies or absolves the user from a moral liability.
A major part of the exercise is that the choice seems simple to flip the switch as plain harm reduction, but that people change their calculus the moment the single victim has a personal connection: (it is their parent, spouse, child being killed instead of the other 5 strangers.)
The forced immoral act (killing) ceases to be the moral quandry and instead harm reduction is the level of personal connection and culpability that people begin to weigh.
Since these memes tend to portray the trolley effectively running down both tracks with one outcome, the whole premise is kind of defeated.
but the purpose of the trolley dilemma isn’t about the results of the lever switch, it’s about approaching complicity and participation in a system that creates this kind of immoral choice.
…
Derail the train don’t accept a false choice not to mention democrats also are terrible on policing and immigration for example so more should also be on the democrats track.
Either the Dem or Rep nominee will become president. It’s going to happen. There’s no “derailing the train”.
You can doubt me now. You’ll see soon enough.
No, really. Q says there’s a super special session of the real Congress that happens on February 7th with jfk jr presiding to choose the real president, but it only happens if you don’t vote. Trust me, bro.
Either the Dem or Rep nominee will become president. It’s going to happen. There’s no “derailing the train”.
The red and blue party didn’t create the world. All it takes to derail a train is one person.
The name of the person? Albert Einstein!
Then why aren’t you derailing the rain?? You’re a horrible person!
The point is nobody is saved by electoral politics instead do actual organizing and actions.
There’s no “derailing the train”.
from Wikipedia
Reversing the points under a moving train will almost always derail the train.
yes we need to derail the metaphorical train
Removed by mod
And there you have it, support for genocide = civil, mods allow. Calling people out on supporting genocide = not civil, mods remove.
Typical fucking libs, making fascists proud.
Oh well, another community and a bunch of mods to block… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Bye, Felicia.
(but worse)
This amounts to genocide denial.
(but worse)
This amounts to genocide denial.
This amounts to genocide denial.
It’s weird how easy it is to say something stupid.
As you can see I have drawn stink lines above your opinion therefore defeating you qed
No it doesn’t. It implies that the level and rate of genocide would be even worse than it is now.
Trump loves money. One of the best ways best way for him to get more money once in power is increasing our military spending on Israel aid, that’s the “but worse” part. In what world do you think he’d do the inverse of maintaining his power? There’s a reason the military industrial complex wants him in power
You live in a completely sealed off palace in your own mind. Democrats have been tripping over themselves to send repeated aid packages. Israel is using ordinance faster than we can make it. You shouldn’t feel so comfortable just saying whatever the fuck makes sense to you when you’re trying to talk about reality. You should look at it.
The democrats are committing a genocide. “But worse” implies they aren’t already doing the worst crime against humanity that exists in our imagination. It is genocide denial.
Even in genocide there is a way to make it worse, see hitlers concentration camps
I posited that Trump will continue and increase that aid because it benefits him. You didn’t address that claim at all, but instead spoke of the existing aid to Israel. I didn’t say that would stop. You never addressed my original point. Insult me all you like, it doesn’t change the fact that Trump will do whatever the fuck it takes to maintain and increase his power, and as you said “Israel is using ordinance faster than we can make it” but we can certainly make it faster, and there’s more money and power to be had in the further production of it, especially when your first goal is to remove any sort of check or balance in place when it comes to where taxpayer money goes
I posited that Trump will continue and increase that aid because it benefits him. You didn’t address that claim at all
I called you stupid and said that you just say shit off the top of your head. That was your response. Trump’s money is in real estate, you unserious clown.
Yes, according to the meme both sides are murderers. Directly supporting criminals by endorsing them or voting them makes you complicit in their crime.
Bruh you literally argued the opposite in your recent comments about Turkey and India.
It’s always different when you do it yourself…
See abortions and ultra conservative Christians.
There are many idiots here acting in bad faith. When someone claim something before jumping to conclusion you probably want to double check
“So am i allowed to insult all Turks in general because their president is a fascist?”
This is the only post about “turkey” i made recently.
How are the two thing supposed to be related? If you knowingly support and vote a criminal you are complicit in the crime. If you happen to be born in a country ruled by a criminal and someone assume you are bad because of your nationality that’s equal to racism.
Hey, what do you think about the Tianmen square incident? And what do you think about the Uyghur situation?
How are these things related to anything that is being said in this thread? Chinese government is a rigged authoritarian regime as much corrupted as the american or russian government. China, America and Russia are all each fueling a genocide at the current time. I believe genocides are a crime against humanity and anyone involved in one should be convicted. You hate china so much that you brought it up randomly in this thread, i have a question for you too: are you aware that most items are produced in china and make it to your country just fine because pretty much every government in the world is in billionares business partnerships with them?
Lol dodged those questions like a champ.
Voting is now directly supporting.
Must be nice and simple to live in such a polarised world.
- In reality the tram has already been running in on a tram track were it has already run over more than 180.000 Palestinians (as estimated in Lancet article some months ago) as well as thousands of Lebanese.
- There have been hundreds of branches all allowing the tram to switch to a line free of victims and at each time Biden and Harris - the ones who have actually had the power all this time - pulled the lever to keep the tram on the line were it ran over more Palestinians and recently also Lebanese.
As usual with these propaganda “memes” the situation is misportrayed as one were the power is in the hands of common Americans, when the power has always been in the hands of the likes of Biden and Harris and who have repeatedly chosen to give more weapons to the Nazis, whilst knowing that it increases the risk of a Trump victory.
Even the kind of human being that only cares about “what’s in it for me” and “is relaxed about the mass murder of babies” should be able to see that the Trump defeat they desire could have been guarantee almost a year ago by Biden simply stopping the sending of weapons and ammo to Israel.
What are you babbling about? Yes, the “tram has already been running in on a tram track were it has already run over more than 180.000 Palestinians”, but the elections, which are literally up to the voters, will determine if it gets even worse and spreads to even more groups and well into fascism.
Your comment is much more propaganda than this meme is. And no, stopping sending weapons and ammo to Israel would not have ensured a Trump defeat, they are not only separate things but it would have likely pushed AIPAC and other Israeli influence operations to join in with the Russian ones to try to influence US elections towards a Trump win. Sadly, a significant portion of the US public cares shit all about doing the right thing, and you only need to look at Reddit’s worldnews to see the sort of severely skewed bubble those that would care are being entrapped in regarding the conflict.
The choice cannot be so single issue. Donald Trump is doing everything he can to subvert the election process, and will try to upend it entirely if he can. Harris is a disappointing choice at best, downright revolting at worst, but she respects the election process. Under Harris, I have a chance to continue voting third party in local elections and trying to change the system. Under Trump, not only is my life and the life of many other Americans in danger, but this may very well be the last time I ever get to vote.
The choice cannot be so black and white. The Democrats have always been neo-libs that are okay with bombing third world countries for imperialist reasons. However, in this election, they’re the ones we have the best chance of voting again under and continuing to try to change the system. I will not be so short sighted as to believe the average American is going to do anything but vote Biden or Harris, so making an ideological stand is doing nothing but wasting my opportunity to stop total fascism from removing the ability to make this country better in the future.
Even if I believed Trump and Harris would be identical on the issue of Gaza, when I strongly believe Trump will accelerate the genocide, I still have to vote Harris in order to retain the ability to vote in the future and secure the current (distasteful) state of our democracy so it can be improved in the future.
still have to vote Harris in order to retain the ability to vote in the future and secure the current (distasteful) state of our democracy so it can be improved in the future.
My honest feeling, and this is just speculation, but it seemed like it was easier to organize large protest movements under trump than under Biden. Once Biden got into office all the liberals stopped supporting protest and started defending the status quo.
I doubt it will be as easy in a fascist police state.
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America is a fascist police state right now
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Police reaction to protests was about the same under both trump and Biden
America is not a fascist state. Elements of fascism are baked into the system and continue to creep out of the woodwork, but let’s not wear our the significance of fascism by equating the modern United States to Nazi Germany. Hyperbole at best.
And yes, police are a serious problem in the U.S., but Trump wants to give them total leeway and freedom to enact “one day of violence” and just take out political dissidents and undesirables. They are just not the same and acting like they are is delusional at best and intentionally muddying the water at worst.
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