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fuck russians? fuck the Russian government and the people who support it, not all the russians.
“fuck the overwhelming majority of russians” doesn’t have the same ring to it.
“fuck the overwhelming minority of Russians, mostly the rich elite, but not the ones oppressed by their government”
This.
I have no problem with Russians, but I do have a problem with the Russian government, and that makes me suspect Russians due to the chance of the Russian government using its leverage to get them to do what they want. So I understand the move, but I’m saddened that FOSS gets sucked into international politics.
FOSS is inherently political, though, and an international collaboration like Linux is inherently internationally political. Allowing big corporations to influence the direction of the codebase? That’s political. Allowing the free usage and distribution of the software to anybody for any purpose not otherwise afforded by existing copyright law? That’s political. Collaborating with contributors from almost every country on Earth? That’s political. Being headquartered in the United States? Again political. Creating a hierarchy with Linus Torvalds at the top? The definition of politics.
It feels like people only start screaming “that’s politics though!” whenever it becomes political in a way that’s controversial to them – without recognizing how completely pervasive politics are in every single aspect of our lives. The fact we’re even talking on Lemmy right now is political – in all likelihood, we both decided that Reddit’s system of governance was unfair and thought a federated system was somehow more ideal, in this case a platform created by outspoken authcoms. That’s even disregarding the Internet which Lemmy sits on top of, including net neutrality, freedom of speech, the infrastructure connecting different jurisdictions, the way it came about through organizations like DARPA, CERN, the IEEE, and ICANN, etc.
It seems though that Linus didn’t make this decision for political reasons, but instead because he doesn’t want to get in trouble with the US government. He indicated that he was advised by lawyers to do this:
I’m not going to go into the details that I - and other maintainers - were told by lawyers.
but instead because he doesn’t want to get in trouble with the US government
I agree that that’s why he made the decision, but you understand how that’s political, right?
He probably isn’t too bothered by the sanctions given his comments about his Finnish nationality being a reason why he opposes Russian aggression. But still, it seems at the moment he’s just trying to follow the law.
I agree, and I mean to say that following the law is a political statement in the same way that him standing up and protesting by not following the law would be a political statement. We’re all political actors; it’s just that the amount of power we have to enact political change varies.
Fair points. I guess I happen to think Linus’s action is fair since I think the sanctioned companies are thought to be supporting Russia’s invasion in some way.
fuck russians.
this is racism and bigotry
“Russian” is not an ethnicity to claim racism against.
Hostility toward someone nationality is racism to me. If it’s not it sill equally bad.
That’s not how words work. Ordinary Russians don’t deserve blanket animosity or praise, yes. However, one can claim disliking Russians wholesale is bigotry, not racism. Words have definitions even if you pretend they don’t so you can virtue signal on the internet.
He didn’t expel all Russians, just the ones working for sanctioned Russian companies.
Important context and a good decision
That would’ve been great for them to clarify earlier XD
That would’ve generated fewer clicks. Sensationalism is always more profitable.
Well, this is The Register. Not exactly a paragon of stellar reporting here.
No, this is on Linus and the Linux Foundation
RIGHT?? I was so disappointed until I learned that bit of context. Even the original article I read about it didn’t mention it
Good! So why the incendiary comments Linus made on Russians. It is so hard to say something like this: "I have to expel them from the project due to a US law forced us to do it. However, I had trust on them all these years and they contributed a lot to the project (that is why they were working here). Now, I am against the law because we should not discriminate people for the origin. Moreover, the claim that they can harm the software is unwarranted because it is OPEN and many eyes are on it. Finally, this harms the entire Linux project because now makes it an “American"project rather than an global one. Sad times.”
Have you noticed exactly how many Russians are bigots who support the mass murder of their neighbors?
I mean there’s probably a lot who don’t, but they’re busy firing missiles at civilians in Ukraine to get around their 15y work camp sentence.
You are going to find bigots in every country. In US the biggest political figures right now are a fascist and a genocide supporter.
xz attack was an open source attack and it would be silly to assume that it was unique.
This has nothing to do with xz
I am also against Russian aggression on Ukraine! But would no ban any Russian because of that. The same I am completely against US occupying Iraq and 1/3 of Syria, yet never would occur to me not to hire an American because what their country does. I really don’t understand why is so hard to understand for Lemmy community the double standard.
Strange. In another comment just minutes ago, you were tacitly blaming Ukraine for being invaded, Kevinovich from Florida Oblast.
Don’t ask for logical arguments from Russians trolls
Insults apart (to Russians, Floridians and Lemmy community) , I do not blame Ukrainians for anything, specially when they are the biggest victims here. I blame the secret cabinets who decides their destiny for power, let those decisions are from Washington or Moscow, but let me tell you for sure are no from Kyiv. Now, historically, if you live close to a mayor power you do not like much (think of Ukraine or Cuba), the best is to have a strong army but never to join another distant power thinking it will save you, they will just use you.
So when Ukrainians try to push for closer alignment with the EU it’s a Washington-backed color revolution and thus is no different than Russia rolling into the literal tanks.
Like, even if you’re not a Russian troll you’re still adopting a conspiracy theory that completely ignores any agency the Ukrainian people have.
You can blame ukraine for being invaded and also being against russian aggression. You sound like you are trying to spin the narrative
You can get big fines if you don’t comply with sanctions though. And in the end Linux is an American foundation.
Linus was still an ass, though. All this drama is 100% his fault.
Agreed. I would comply (US’s courts can be very hard with you if you don’t) but you can dismiss those Russians with honor and thank them for their contribution. Then, you can consider to move the foundation to a more free environment (Switzerland, Mexico, Spain,…)
Some people would disagree with you https://lwn.net/Articles/995294/
Your own link 1) does not attest to that and 2) has a comment replying to it directly contradicting what it’s saying in the first place.
I think given the current political situation this is the right call. No one knows what the Russian government might compel otherwise innocent devs to do.
That said, we (and I mean society, not any particular individual) should be mindful that we don’t slip into bigotry.
I’ve worked side by side with RU devs who were both personable and damned competent. Never were their tech skills in doubt, and I retain quite a bit of respect for those individuals.
I’d not do the same today explicitly because of the political and compliance implications. It’s unfortunate, but necessary.
Again, with open software that is not necessary… If we get to believe that argument, those potential “FSB” coders would be the ones who would notice if the CIA was trying to place a back door in the kernel too. Open Software is OPEN!!
Would they? The XZ utils backdoor was only discovered by what can only be described as an insanely attentive developer who happened to be testing something unrelated and who happened to notice a small increase in the startup time of the library, and was curious enough to go and figure out why.
Open does not mean “can’t be backdoored”.
Can you explain me why Linux waited till the very last moment of the Executive Order 14071’s grace period (the order is from April 2022!) to apply it? Obviously he trusted those people, or the verification system of the open system! Imagine you don’t like a political party for bad… fair enough, so you ban their representatives from voting table… don’t you think, that incentivizes the other party committing fraud? In these open system things, the more eyes the better, I don’t care if commies, libertarians, ultra-right or whatever, the diversity is what keep it in check…
Slow walking compliance is normal. It keeps assets liquid and processes & people in place as long as possible before making changes. It also prevents the cost of changing back and forth if a new rule is struck down before its final date.
What will happen often is that a compliant procedure will be developed as soon as possible, but no changes will be made until absolutely necessary. That gives the organization maximum time to figure out other routes of compliance, fight the rule and continue at pace before they change.
This coming from the brilliant mind who thinks Russia’s neighbors are better off neutral toward it and victim blames countries like Ukraine which have been invaded by it, routinely spreads pro-Russia propaganda on Lemmy and nothing else, and has suspiciously Russian-y broken English.
Edit: Also, as other commenters have correctly pointed out, Russian citizens being allowed to be maintainers of the Linux project has fuck-all to do with the actual principles of open software as defined either by the FSF or the OSI.
Ukraine was invaded after a coup (when elections was 11 months away and polls say would turned pro-western anyways in their typical rotation). Yes Finland, Switzerland and Austria were non NATO are prospered fine, I would say even thrived. Same as Singapore with China. Of course, you can take the Cuba route and bring the nuclear missiles from Moscow, surely US will leave it fine. Side the side you want, keep a strong army but don’t join any military alliance seems to be the recipe for success when you leave close to a power you don’t like.
I would say even thrived
Finland has to keep one of the largest militaries on Earth solely due to their proximity with Russia, and they barely fended them off in the 1940s. Ukraine was the last straw, and they decided to join NATO. Switzerland??? Are you fucking high? Go look at a fucking map and see where Switzerland is, holy shit. Austria is once again fully enclosed by NATO countries except a small border with Switzerland to the west.
I’m not even addressing the rest of the comment; citing Switzerland alone was too stupid for your worthless, propagandist drivel to be worth my time.
Usually countries have to decide between butter and guns (eco 101). Well, such “largest militaries on Earth” had it both! Like Switzerland, you do have to keep a strong military to dissuade, but aligning to a alliance when you are the spearhead is bad. Switzerland had made an alliance with France or Germany a century ago, would not have ended non invaded, 100% guaranteed.
Shut the fuck up.
intelligent counterargument… and ten upvotes. cool; disappointment a Lemmy community; seem just like another echo chamber as X.
I hope it makes your opinion unwelcome, come back when you grow up as a part of normal member of society.
Because noone actually added a pro-western opinion but rather rebutted your pro-russian tankie bs. And by bs i mean complete nonsense that fails to see a simple comparison of how west does not interfere and expand it’s territory on behalf of it’s neighbors through lies, sabotage and military, but russia does and has for decades. That’s the main reason why it’s neighbours have to spend on military instead of society growth, and now they have realised the tolerance or staying neutral does not work on country that has not grown as a respectful and healthy society member which is proven exactly by your comments.
Pretty sure you won’t be even bothered to read the whole comment and think it’s “huinya”, i know it because i live in a neighbouring country and i know it first hand it sucks to live next to russia.
Your entire comment is a bunch of bullshit and straight up propaganda.
i wish there was more we could do to help russians topple their dictatorship
Necessary for what?
Linux Fundarion is based in America. It needs to follow its rules and politics. I guess a lot of things will happen after this. As something so important for open technology like It , should be based in a more open, mor asvanced in laws and neutral territory.
Linus is from Finland. Not hard to remember reasons for aversion to Russian propaganda for anyone raised near it.
Blanketing the Linux Foundation as American based kind of sounds like you’re a Russian troll.
Calling out others as a Russian troll sound like a technique to shift scrutiny onto others.
Exactly what a Russian troll would do!
You would think someone from Finland would know better that, when you are so close to a power you don’t like, the best way to prosper is by keeping neutrality,… look at Finland in the 60s-00s, Singapore, Austria… or you choose to pick the Ukrainian, Filipino and Cuban path…
That worked out so well for Ukraine didn’t it.
Get out of here you Russian troll
Lol, nope, that’s a complete bs
Heheheh paranoia fue. And no, just read on internet where is based. California so be precise
Linus lives in Oregon
This is hardly the first time the core Linux code stack has been forked and independently developed. Seems like this is going to invite a Russia-specific development environment that just pulls in updates from the main branch and adds in Russia-internal development (which will likely then be copied by non-Russians and backloaded into the core Linux stack under someone else’s name, because why waste good dev work?)
But the argument appears to be anyone with a Russian-sounding name is getting removed from the core development team, until they can prove to the American team that they aren’t… spooks, I guess? Also
The driver code to which the dropped maintainers contributed remains in place.
So this isn’t such a high security risk that the code is being pulled (presumably because its been vetted and appears beyond repute). This is purely a CYA move to eliminate veterans on the team because they were forthright about their identities.
should be based in a more open, mor asvanced in laws and neutral territory.
Its not clear how a policy of booting people based on their surnames accomplishes this.
I could mention all the forks that Linux currently has, please.
With that logic, the US contributes should be expelled too. We have more examples of US folks being served NSLs than Russians.
Its an American-based venture, owned and operated by American businessmen. They’re not going to burn their own guys, even if some of them are spooks (no evidence that anyone on the core dev team is a spook, but crazy to think the FSB would have people in and the Five-Eyes guys wouldn’t).
I do wonder how long until we start seeing mainstream code-forks that span geopolitical regions. Will we have a Digital Iron Curtain, with BRICS countries doing their own FOSS branches independently of NATO block?
Many European companies canceled contracts with US companies because of the NSL risk. I don’t think the devide is NATO. The US laws are a threat to security and privacy everywhere
Many European companies canceled contracts with US companies because of the NSL risk.
I’d be curious to see who they were. My guess is that they are relatively small and easy enough to circumvent without breaking ties with America as a whole.
But I’m not seeing Exxon, Boeing, or Microsoft pull out of Europe, despite being deeply embedded with sanctioned regimes.
Biden literally introduced legislation to prevent it because it was a mass exodus. The companies you mentioned are US companies. I mean EU companies won’t use US MSPs because of the risk
Looking at the downvotes, signals some true on you comment!
All that says is that there’s a lot of people ITT who don’t know what a downvote button is for, and the mods aren’t doing their job
Nah, you just butthurt that your putinsucking goes unappreciated
Lol because russian is so open about who they give nsl to. Or they just poison/defenestrate them
Its the same in the US
What current situation?
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Is so hard to believe Open Source should be open? If there were a malicious intent, others would have been able to detect it in no time… because it is ‘open’! If the open system works, it should not matter there are CIA or FSB, commies or libertarians “infiltrated” making the code.
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If those Russians had been in that position is because their contributions have been stellar, otherwise they would never have gotten there. Their contribution and effort has been robbed from them just because they mothers give them birth in the wrong coordinates.
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Linus is a god for many of us… with human traits though… His Finland, although historically robbed by Russia, achieved its highest splendor during the decades of neutrality, not by fiercely antagonizing one or the other power… same as Switzerland, Ireland, Austria and Singapore.
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All this started with a US law so he has to comply with. However, instead of those unhelpful comments, he should say that in open software it is unwarranted… not to mention countries can get sanctions for their actions, but not civilians that cannot choose where they are born.
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If we are to believe that Moscow is trying to put something into the kernel “undetected”… gosh, what an organization based on the US with a so pro-establishment leader may be doing so? For real, now I am starting having my doubts on the kernel!
you lost me at this
If there were a malicious intent, others would have been able to detect it in no time… because it is ‘open’!
not sure if troll or just really ignorant.
Executive Order 14071 is more than 2 yrs old… Linus waited till the grace deadline (in 1 week) to apply it, obviously he found it non necessary all this time and he trusted those Russians until the grace period expires. No, not so ignorant, nor a troll. And yes, Open systems is easy to detect maliciousness, better yet, you can pin point who contributed what for everyone to see.
blah blah blah. you’re obviously trolling or have no idea how FOSS is developed.
if FOSS is so secure then why is it a popular attack vector for Russian and Chinese espionage?
just because something is public doesn’t make it inherently more secure, I’m honestly disappointed in your dangerous and clearly flawed take on FOSS.
FOSS is great, but it’s really no more and no less secure than closed sourced software.
So why Linus waited 2 years and a half to apply the Order until the grace period expires? He obviously does not like Russia, but he did trust those individuals (or system)!
I don’t care and I’m not going to argue the point you want to make because it’s frivolous.
he’s the maintainer, he can do whatever the fuck he wants whenever the fuck he wants and to whomever the fuck he wants on his project.
My very fist post on lemmy and already see the upvote downvote game… When someone votes should be demanded a public reason, no?
What you should have posted was nothing.
At this point I’m just hanging out in this thread to block people with replies so awful I don’t think we’ll ever have the possibility to have a civil discussion about anything whatsoever, ever.
It doesn’t even matter what “side” people take, it’s just 80% garbage here now.
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Not gonna lie, this is kinda a refutation of the whole open source model. I was led to believe that it shouldn’t matter who writes the code, as long the code is able to be interrogated/corrected.
Isn’t most of Linux open source?
All of it is. But its still possible to sneak backdoors into Foss software (though magnitudes harder). See xz.
If you can sneak backdoors, removing one side, would not make the other side, even if you consider the good one, be even more able to sneak one too. In election tables, what guarantees transparency is everyone represented at the table, not banning one side.
But NSLs force them to do it, and prevent them from talking about it. This is a bigger risk than something like the xz attack, because the barrier of entry is so low
The current ceo of usa is supporting a genocide in gaza and the former ceo is a fascist. Does the same logic apply here?
I think pressure should be put on the US to divest from genocide. Sanctions from our allies would be helpful… Surely with the international court declaring Israel’s actions a war crime it is easy to make a case for it.
Our election system has fucked over anti-zionists and needs reforming, which is happening, but not by this November.
Ranked choice voting is gaining popularity, electoral college is under pressure and people are fed up with voter suppression and gerrymandering and things are moving in a positive direction on the local and state levels.
Linus is from Finland. Finns barely tolerate Russians under usual circumstances. These are not usual circumstances.
True he could have banned them long ago, it’s his project in the end, but he didn’t, he only did it after the sanctions
It is genuine xenophobia. I like in Poland, and its like you’re either a homophobe, or a xenophobe- with pretty limited inbetween. (And there are plenty of people who are both)
And Russians are peaceophobes? 😆
Ah, yes. Russia. A paragon of moral societal standards and behavior.
If he did that that would have been genuine discrimination. If he has to do it now because of sanctions, then ok fine. But otherwise I don’t want to see an open source project treating people differently based on where they were born.
Come on lemmy, how is this pro-racism comment upvoted so many times? Please, think.
“Russian” is not a race.
Sound like they are racists to me
I mean, that’s like calling a Native American racist for disliking European (white) Americans. Like sure, technically, but aren’t there some underlying issues at play that make the feeling more justified.
Technically America belongs to Native Americans and the occupation of their soil is still going but you don’t hear racists tantrums against europeans. Perhaps you should study Native American culture i believe you can get something from it.
I think many racists do in fact say Native Americans are throwing racist tantrums when they work towards gaining even the most basic of human rights.
Absolutely based as fuck as usual.
Good cleanup on the security vulnerabilities!
Honestly, that’s the main thing I was thinking.
Anyone wanting to put vulnerabilities into Linux is probably capable of not looking like they are in Russia…
It’s a statement: Russia as the only country on the world is not allowed to participate to the biggest human collaboration in existence which runs 90% of all computers due to bad state actions.
They should fucking speak up to Putin not Torvalds.
To directly quote Linus:
Ok, lots of Russian trolls out and about.
It’s entirely clear why the change was done, it’s not getting reverted, and using multiple random anonymous accounts to try to “grass root” it by Russian troll factories isn’t going to change anything.
And FYI for the actual innocent bystanders who aren’t troll farm accounts - the “various compliance requirements” are not just a US thing.
If you haven’t heard of Russian sanctions yet, you should try to read the news some day. And by “news”, I don’t mean Russian state-sponsored spam.
As to sending me a revert patch - please use whatever mush you call brains. I’m Finnish. Did you think I’d be supporting Russian aggression? Apparently it’s not just lack of real news, it’s lack of history knowledge too.
Linus really pouring on that “white death” energy.
It’s really awesome to expel by nationality, even including people who’ve long moved out and immigrated years ago and don’t support the invasion and war waged on Ukraine /s
Honestly fuck Russia ofc, but this goes a bit too far into the grey area between hawkish-reasonable and discriminatory, and on the latter side I’m not sure who and/or what this is meant to help, nor does it seem particularly fair to those individual contributors to keep their code yet remove attribution and mailing list entries.
EDIT: holy shit the bloodlust in the comments here is actually unreal, even on arr slash neoliberal and the politics communities here on lemmy the comments are way more sane.
Why are people so fundamentally incapable of nuanced judgement. According to people in this comment section, a human is entirely defined by their country of origin. What is this witch hunt level, toddler IQ thinking. Are people really so desperate to have a “bad guy” that they can blame everything on? This dehumanization of people is wild to me.
a human is entirely defined by their country of origin
This reeks of Americanism, yanks are absurdly obsessed with race and nationality
The irony of your comment is not lost on me.
But yeah if you were to measure a country by its loudest voices then that would be accurate.
A “funny” joke in the US is asking a non-white person where they’re from and they respond with something like “Indiana”
Americans are fuckin idiots
source: at least two high viewership TV shows
Please tell me of this enlightened place you come from where racism and discrimination do not exist. Surely they also are accepting refugees and I need but apply? No?
Everyone but my tribe are _______. Hehe I’m so clever.
It’s just another self-hating American
What does this even mean? What TV shows are you even talking about? Indiana is a US state.
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a human is entirely defined by their country of origin
That’s missing a big part of the justification here. When you’re from a given country, that country frequently has a lot of influence over you. You probably have family and other ties in your home country, and those can be used as leverage to get you to do what the state wants. And when your country is in active opposition to a large portion of the free world, it makes a lot of sense for people to be extra cautious in who they deal with, because it’s never clear if that person is being manipulated by their former state.
So excluding someone based on nationality can absolutely make sense as an easy rule of thumb to avoid most of the problems stemming from that state.
Would you agree it’s a good thing to avoid US software as they’ve incorporated secret surveillance into law through letters of national security to private companies?
And by extension, perhaps even shunning US citizens?
As a US citizen, I care less about where the software comes from, but who hosts that software, so I tend to use FOSS products and services, preferring to self-host where it’s not too annoying.
I don’t think anyone should shun citizens from any country, but we should be wary of trusting citizens from countries where the government has a larger influence. So we should be hesitant to trust people from Russia, China, North Korea, and Iran (and a bunch of others, I’m just listing the official enemies of the US), especially if they still live in those countries. That doesn’t mean we should shun people from those countries (I have an awesome coworker from Iran), just that we should hesitate to put them into influential positions. I have no problem collaborating with people from any of those countries, I just think we should be a little extra careful when there’s a stronger incentive for their government to get involved (and manipulating Linux is attractive for pretty much every government, esp. my own).
I have no problem collaborating with people from any of those countries we should hesitate to put them into influential positions
“I’m an American, and therefore I’m better”
where the government has a larger influence
We’re literally talking about Linux Foundation making these changes to comply with requirements of your government.
We’re literally talking about Linux Foundation making these changes to comply with requirements of your government.
In leadership, not code. That’s a pretty big difference.
I also think we shouldn’t have people from the NSA, CIA, or FBI as maintainers either, because they have clear conflicts of interest. That said, I think it’s a lot less likely for the US government to extort a maintainer to let bad code through than the Russian government. It’s much more likely for the US government to try to hide bad code in the normal review process, and I’m sure that happens w/ Russian spy agencies as well, but allowing someone in a region that has demonstrated that they’re willing to strong-arm people into doing things that benefits the state (i.e. through threats or even outright force) to hold a maintainer position in a very influential piece of software isn’t a great idea, especially when their government is choosing to be an international pariah.
I have zero problem with Russians contributing code to the kernel, I just think it’s wise to remove Russian citizens from leadership positions to limit the impact of Russian interference in Linux development.
You are talking about hypothetical situations in the organization with around 2694 maintainers. What I find interesting, is that no one in this thread thought it would be good to check if these 11 already contributed something harmful. Instead, it’s just “good, we prevented a bad thing”.
Anyway, your extreme take “ban all Russians because what if” goes much further than what happened in reality (“ban Russians working for companies under sanctions”): https://social.kernel.org/objects/860ef93c-229b-4070-8ee6-cb80d1f51337
Should we exclude people from states actively fueling a genocide?
That’s completely unrelated to contribution to FOSS. The only way it would be relevant is for software projects that do some kind of filtering, so something like Lemmy might be an area where I’d hesitate to put someone from Israel, Gaza, Russia, or Ukraine into a maintainer/moderator/admin role because they could influence what content is viewed by users in a way that paints their country in a better light.
But someone from the US is fine?
The US also has some incentives here, but I’d say it’s far less likely to interfere than the ones I mentioned. As long as there’s enough variety (i.e. some people from the EU and other regions), it should be fine.
Yeah. Times like this I wonder whether a better world is even really possible, or whether social liberalisation was but a blip on a trajectory of bigotry, antagonism, tribalism and savagery.
Even in harmless contexts, the commodification of national identity as the first and foremost trait of a person even for the purposes of smalltalk or jest always makes me think if perhaps most are far more nationalist than they’d care to admit or even themselves think. It’s a haunting thought.
Because as long as the Russian state exists and can point to their “history” as an empire and use it as an excuse to take over their neighboring countries (like Latvia, the place where I’m from), I won’t be satisfied.
Unfortunately nobody is bombing Moscow yet, so anything that isolates and makes the population more angry and can hopefully topple the government is a good thing in my book
It’s disappointing behavior by Linus. It’s understandable that sanctions could force the removal of people just for being Russia.
His reply however shows he personally is in favor of removing people just for being Russian.
I wonder if any of the people who pressured him to take some time off for being a “jerk” will give a shit for this response.
keep their code yet remove attribution
Isn’t that a violation of the GPL?
Russia represent Russian citizens the same way the US represent US citizens. If you’re an US citizen and you think US international actions look bad on you then tough luck. Being a citizen of a specific state comes with its own responsibilities and consequences. If Russian nationals have long moved out of Russia and migrated elsewhere and don’t support anything Russia does, why are they still Russian citizens? If they don’t want to get sanctioned and they’ve long migrated from Russia they should apply for citizenship elsewhere. If they choose to stay Russian citizens that’s on them.
As for nationality vs citizenship. Nationality is too vague of a term because it can mean both citizen of a state and originating from said state. I’m pretty sure in this case the discussion is about people who are Russian citizens, not people who originate from Russia but are no longer associated with them. Using nationality only muddies the discussion.
Congratulation, you are part of the problem!
So what are we supposed to do?
Not sanction Russia?
Apply sanctions on an individual basis?
EDIT: Nothing of value down below, just me and someone who only wants to be outraged. Delve deeper of your own accord.
Are you under the impression I’m some kind of strategical genius of political negotiation? I have no idea.
My point is that holding everybody responsible for what the specific form of government of the specific country they happened to be born into is a confortable truth to push back on the much more controversial take of all of us being the very same thing.
And to get slightly more practical, it’s asinine to suggest that anybody that disagrees with a government has the means, or the will, or the duty to straight up move to another country (obviously to a flawless country, good luck with that).
I’ll ask differently. Let’s just assume there is a way to make sure there is no overreach of sanctions, but it’s going to cost millions of tax dollars or euros. Would you rather have that money spent on things that are close to you (education, healthcare, infrastructure etc) or would you want that money to be spent identifying which Russians should or shouldn’t be sanctioned?
And to get slightly more practical, it’s asinine to suggest that anybody that disagrees with a government has the means, or the will, or the duty to straight up move to another country (obviously to a flawless country, good luck with that).
I agree, somethings shit just sucks. However, the other person said:
even of people who’ve long moved out and immigrated years ago and don’t support the invasion and war waged on Ukraine
Those people have already had the means, will or duty to move to another country. What’s their excuse for keeping the Russian citizenship?
Those people have already had the means, will or duty to move to another country. What’s their excuse for keeping the Russian citizenship?
There’s plenty of reason, the most likely is that they love their country, their homeland, their city, the network of friends, the memories and they hope, one day, to be able to get back.
Let’s just assume there is a way to make sure there is no overreach of sanctions, but it’s going to cost millions of tax dollars or euros. Would you rather have that money spent on things that are close to you (education, healthcare, infrastructure etc) or would you want that money to be spent identifying which Russians should or shouldn’t be sanctioned?
Would you still love me if I was a giant moth?
There’s plenty of reason, the most likely is that they love their country, their homeland, their city, the network of friends, the memories and they hope, one day, to be able to get back.
So it’s literally their decision to keep their citizenship and be sanctioned, but you’re still outraged about it?
Would you still love me if I was a giant moth?
I would definitely hate you less because I really hate trolls.
Are you under the impression I’m some kind of strategical genius of political negotiation?
The way you denigrate different opinions, it seems you may be the one to think that, actually.
That’s just the misanthropy leaking…
It’s besides the point because with the Linux kernel should be run under a principle akin to net-neutrality where we do not let geopolitics affect it (do you really want Trump’s America to have legal power over it?)
The solution here is simple, just do not kick the maintainers unless they have confirmed ties to the Russian state. It’s not always practical to make sanctions precisely targeted, but in this case it actually is easily so.
Let us all love Lain 😁
Other than that, can we still trust .ru and .su domains?
And you don’t seem to understand ~~
can we still trust .ru and .su domains?
I wouldn’t, personally. It’s not like Russians cannot obtain non-.ru domains and if anything those anti-war are inclined to do so to avoid scrutiny, especially with anti-putin russian news orgs like e.g. meduza.
Definitely not .su unless you know what you’re doing and what you’re doing is some sketchy shit.
Nobody could ever trust .su domains, it’s always been a hive of scum and villainy. No joke, it’s been notorious for scamming and various cyber crime, which is a shame since it’s a great novelty domain.
Many know it from piracy 🤭
Apply sanctions on an individual basis?
Exactly. ACF has published a list of every single person responsible for the war. Most of them are not sanctioned because they are filthy rich and have already bought themselves passports in various EU countries. Targeting Russian passports does absolutely nothing to them as they can just use another.
Sanctions are to punish the whole country including individuals. Sanctions work because it makes lives of individuals worse so that they have reason to be unhappy and do something against the reasons the sanctions is put on them. It makes it harder for leaders to be accepted, if under their power live gets worse. And if a leader is not accepted by enough of their people, the chances of resistance is bigger. And the countries that have put sanctions on, want exactly that.
This idea ignores how Russia works. Everyone already knows it’s a totalitarian shithole. They just don’t have the means to fight it, so they either lay low and play along, or try to get the fuck out. Sanctions hit the second group, as well as companies that implement them because they’re losing income. In fact, older folk here still grumble at USSR collapse and how effective free reign of capitalism was in the 90s at extracting wealth out of the country.
Even if that idea was to hold any water, straight up blocks are not what you’d need. For example, when I open up a site and I see a block page, the idea that pops into my head is always the same - “what a bunch of assholes…”. I can bypass the block either way, but the difference is that it can say either “blocked by the ministry of truth”, or “blocked because ur russian, haha get rekt”. Given how easy it is to get hit by censorship for innocent things, it’s rather easy to shift the blame, while keeping the business running, by just standing up to the ideas of free speech, like not removing the “celebrating the pride month” logo in that country specifically, like all of them did…
I guess the politicians of the countries having the sanctions in place have still to see and learn how the Russian people react to sanctions. I think many of them only know the Russian culture from some “schoolbooks” if even (like me 😅)
If they don’t want to get sanctioned and they’ve long migrated from Russia they should apply for citizenship elsewhere
Have you ever thought about doing this yourself? Don’t have to go far to figure that it takes at least 5 years of hard work in most cases, if possible at all. Citizenship unfortunately isn’t something you can acquire or renounce at will. Not without being obscenely rich, that is.
I never said it’s easy. I can understand someone keeping their citizenship out of convenience because the process of obtaining a different citizenship is difficult. However, I wouldn’t call it impossible. Based on my country the most time-consuming part about getting the citizenship is having to actually live here, which is at least 8 years under the residency permit. The language proficiency test and constitution (and citizenship act) examinations take an effort but are not insurmountable if you’re serious about getting a different citizenship. I haven’t gone through the process itself because I’ve never had the need, but based on what the legal requirements are I don’t see how that’s only for the obscenely rich. If you’re permanently settled elsewhere it’s a matter of time and effort.
I think my point still stands. If they have the option to choose a different citizenship and they choose not to, that’s on them. And when it comes to this specific instance I’m assuming some good will on from the rest of Linux maintainers. Hartman said “They can come back in the future if sufficient documentation is provided.” I assume if the Russian maintainers showed that they’ve passed the citizenship examinations and their different citizenship is only a matter of time, then that should be sufficient documentation to get them back on the list.
Is it any 8 years, or continious 8 years? In most places, the requirement is for continious, which is a tough ask. Imagine not being able to leave the country for almost a decade.
And you need a reason to get residence permit. In most cases there are few: living with spouse, reuniting with family, working, studying, or doing business. Of those, only work, study and business are the ones that are realistically achievable.
For work, there’s usually also a requirement for employeer to prove that there are no natives available to fill the role. This is a tough process, which takes a lot of time and no guarantee it’d even get approved. So, not many employees even bother unless you have exceptional skills.
For study, you would have to actually study to avoid expulsion, while somehow earning enough on some part-time remote work to support yourself (or have enough savings to support yourself for years). And then, bachelors is not enough so you must go for PhD. Meanwhile, in both above cases you have to also learn local language. I’m sure there are people who could pull this off, but, again, it’s quite exceptional.
Last is business. Usually the requirement is to invest somewhere in the ranges of $100k to $500k into local economy. That’s not filthy rich, but, for context, for Russian it’d take 3 years of fighting on the frontlines to earn as much, with a wage considered good enough to risk dying for… And then the country can still deny you permit without any reason.
It’s because of this, most people I know, who chose to leave the country keep their passports and either settle in Armenia and Georgia with 182/365 days renewable visa-free entry, or run circles between Serbia-Montenegro or Thailand-Vietnam.
There are also interesting opportunities with digital nomad visas, but, again, the requirements out of reach for most.
But for oligarchs, this is pennies. They can buy a few outright, then fly private jet to the US as tourists with pregnant wives, get children born there, then send them to study in London. Apply for family reunifications, bam, theyre now citizens of US and UK, in addition to all previous ones.
I assume if the Russian maintainers showed that they’ve passed the citizenship examinations and their different citizenship is only a matter of time
It’s the other way around. You have to live for X years to be eligible for the test. Given a common requirement of 5 years, they would have to have started this process 2 years before the war broke out.
I maintain US citizenship as the only biological child of my parents in case I need to be there for them due to an emergency or, later, end-of-life care. I cannot move them to Japan nor would they want to.
So hypothetically let’s say there’s a project or a job or anything of the sorts that you personally want to do, and that something requires that you’re not an US citizenship. I assume you’d stick with your parents and not get a Japanese citizenship. Would you accept that as the compromise you personally have to make (choosing the wellbeing of your parents over the thing you want to do) or would you complain that you’re being treated unfairly?
I would stick with my parents. I also have other citizenship and Japan would require giving up all citizenship to become a Japanese citizen. I would complain that it is bullshit as I do today about Japan’s current citizenship laws.
I also have other citizenship and Japan would require giving up all citizenship to become a Japanese citizen. I would complain that it is bullshit as I do today about Japan’s current citizenship laws.
Okay, but that’s irrelevant. I simply pointed at Japanese citizenship because your brought up Japan. The compromise was between keeping US citizenship to take care of your parents vs renouncing the US citizenship to do the thing you want to do. And you compromised to take care of your parents. That is a decision you would make.
So why are you defending the Russians abroad who have decided to keep their Russian citizenship? They also have a choice between keeping the Russian citizenship and fall under sanctions or renounce their citizenship and not fall under sanctions. It’s their decision to make.
As for Russians within Russia. Sad to say but they’re fucked regardless. I imagine the sanctions preventing them from working on Linux is the least of their problems. And as I pointed out in my other comment, would you be willing to spend your tax dollars to make sure the right Russians get sanctioned instead of spending those tax dollars in a way that would benefit you?
Russia represent Russian citizens the same way the US represent US citizens.
Lolwut. Russia isn’t even a democracy.
If you’re an US citizen and you think US international actions look bad on you then tough luck.
You really think Joe Schmoe Ignoramus from Shaboygan, Wisconsin just trying to buy gas is to be held responsible for the civilian deaths in Palestine? War in Iraq? Unhinged.
Being a citizen of a specific state comes with its own responsibilities and consequences.
No, because being a citizen of a state is not a choice. You are born where you’re born.
If Russian nationals have long moved out of Russia and migrated elsewhere and don’t support anything Russia does, why are they still Russian citizens?
Because they may have family (e.g. elderly parents that require care) there and prospects of being able to visit otherwise aren’t great.
If they choose to stay Russian citizens that’s on them.
But that’s besides the fact actually getting a citizenship in another country is very very difficult. I’ve been in the UK for like 15 years, since 10 or so years old, and only just barely eligible now, gonna take another 2 years if not more to go through the process.
Your entire comment is “Tell me you’re a westerner without the least bit of awareness of how immigration works without telling me.” basically, living happily with a golden US passport or in the Schengen, not how it works for the majority of the world, or there’d be no one left in the global south.
Nationality is too vague of a term because it can mean both citizen of a state and originating from said state.
No it really can’t.
Nationality is the legal status of belonging to a particular nation, defined as a group of people organized in one country, under one legal jurisdiction, or as a group of people who are united on the basis of culture.
In international law, nationality is a legal identification establishing the person as a subject, a national, of a sovereign state. It affords the state jurisdiction over the person and affords the person the protection of the state against other states.
Oh boy. I’ll respond only once and if you throw another wall of text I’m just fucking off.
Lolwut. Russia isn’t even a democracy.
Officially it is. I know in practice it isn’t but the only ones who realistically can turn it into an actual democracy are Russian people. I don’t think we should give them an exception just because their country has gone to shit.
You really think Joe Schmoe Ignoramus from Shaboygan, Wisconsin just trying to buy gas is to be held responsible for the civilian deaths in Palestine? War in Iraq? Unhinged.
Directly responsible? No. Indirectly? Yes. It’s like people have no fucking clue what a country is. It doesn’t just prop up out of nowhere. Someone somewhere defined a country and when it comes to democracies (even dysfunctional ones like Russia and the US) the people set up the country for themselves. It’s their country and whether they like it or not, they are collectively responsible for what their country does. If they’re not responsible then who is responsible for the US supporting Israel? The politicians? Who votes the politicians in power? The people. The Lobbyists? The lobbyists lobby to politicians and the politicians get chosen by the people. The masses being stupid and easy to manipulate is a different topic, but it doesn’t change that despite collectively making bad decisions the people are making those decisions.
No, because being a citizen of a state is not a choice.
It literally is. If it wasn’t a choice you couldn’t choose to become a citizen of a different state. Your initial citizenship isn’t a choice because you’re born with it but you’re also born with your initial sex, doesn’t mean you can’t choose a different sex as you grow older.
Because they may have family there and prospects of being able to visit otherwise aren’t great.
And that’s their decision to keep their citizenship. Just like it would be my decision if I chose to have a diarrhea takeaway today. Or should I blame my diarrhea on you?
But that’s besides the fact actually getting a citizenship in another country is very very difficult. I’ve been in the UK for like 15 years, since 10 or so years old, and only just barely eligible.
I can’t believe I took the effort to look up how UK citizenship works but if you’re only barely eligible after 15 years you are clearly leaving out some key information. The “don’t be poor” part of ILR is kinda stupid so if it’s that I get it, but beyond that you shouldn’t be barely eligible unless you’ve sloppy with your visa’s or have been regularly traveling in and out of the UK.
And my point is that while getting a citizenship can be difficult, it is not impossible.
No it really doesn’t.
It clearly was vague considering how many other comments are mixing up someone being born in Russia or having Russian heritage with someone actually being Russian. And to point to the exact same wiki page:
As such nationality in international law can be called and understood as citizenship,[35] or more generally as subject or belonging to a sovereign state, and not as ethnicity.
responds with wall of text
“if you throw another wall of text I’m just fucking off.”
Cute.
I know in practice it isn’t but the only ones who realistically can turn it into an actual democracy are Russian people.
Don’t hold your breath. Russians are absolutely scared into submission and honestly they’re not wrong to be scared. Political prisoners don’t have any real human rights nor do their families. In a country where the average person can barely scrounge for a car, a well-funded, organized resistance is unlikely to accomplish anything so complex and significant as a revolution towards democracy on their own.
That said, it’s not like there isn’t anything at all being done:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_Vladimir_Putin_in_Russia
Protests against Putin have been going on for a long-time, but Navalny’s death has slowed things down somewhat. More openly acts of anti-government terrorism and openly fighting for Ukraine have been happening also:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarusian_and_Russian_partisan_movement_(2022–present)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_Organization_of_Anarcho-Communists
These are far braver people than I, god bless and godspeed to them. But also, not something you can expect the average Joe Schmoe to be.
I don’t think we should give them an exception just because their country has gone to shit.
It’s not an exception, it’s the rule. People and governments are almost entirely separate. State is an oppressor of the people that exists to benefit the top 1% and corporations, more often than not it acts in complete opposition to the interests of the people and they have no power to change it, whether it’s outright a military dictatorship, one-party rule (China), practical one-party rule (Japan), two-party system (US), practical two-party system (UK) or otherwise.
It literally is. If it wasn’t a choice you couldn’t choose to become a citizen of a different state.
You can’t choose, you can try to become one but for 99% of people it’s not possible. You are in total ignorance of the realities of immigration. My parents were no oligarchs, but they were definitely really well-off, and if not for that I’d never have immigrated.
Not to mention:
Your initial citizenship isn’t a choice
doesn’t mean you can’t choose a different sex as you grow older.
Yeah, but it also is a helluva undertaking. Transitioning fully takes 10+ years easily in practice and either being very lucky and living in a country with nationalised healthcare and having the patience of a saint to not only wait the eternal waitlists but also fight through both the incompetence, the lack of understanding and outright malice or have tens of thousands of dollars burning a hole in your pocket.
It’s actually why people don’t actually choose to do it. It’s a hassle. In practice, you need to be motivated by something very hardcore, like a disorder that causes ever-present severe mental pain for instance - like Gender Dysphoria - to be able to see it through.
I started 9 years ago, and only just had SRS a few months back, and I still have all the legal shit ahead of me too. There are ways I could’ve optimized it, but hindsight is 20/20, and after countless nights wondering if I could’ve done it earlier and faster, the answer is yes, but only slightly so, or if I was simply orders of magnitude more rich, and not a semi-broke uni student for most of it.
When it comes to immigrating from somewhere like Russia to somewhere like the US or UK, even on top of the 10 years and enormous amounts of luck, talent and constant effort (education, job searching is 10x harder) the monetary figure gets up to hundreds of thousands of dollars easily.
Or should I blame my diarrhea on you?
No, but you should be a pragmatist and understand that it’s not realistic to suggest people never get takeaway at all, because it’s for instance - unhealthy - which is true in many cases.
People smoke, do drugs, drink alcohol and eat sugary foods despite all that, and self-control is kind of a myth, it has a lot more to do with one’s circumstances than oneself. E.g. for someone who’s only source of happiness in a dreary day is a bottle of a beer, it’s gonna be a lot harder to stop than for someone who didn’t care that much for it in the first place because they’re rich and their life is not very stressful.
The “don’t be poor” part of ILR is kinda stupid so if it’s that I get it
That part is a non-issue, because if you’re smart, self-disciplined and patient enough to get a skilled worker job in the first place and your job salary qualifies for the skilled worker visa by salary requirements then you won’t have any problems saving the £3k+. Compared to like 4 years of university at what, £14k a year, it’s barely anything.
have been regularly traveling in and out of the UK.
That was it for me. But I visited my parents for summer holidays when I was a literal child, long before I understood that Russia was not a place I wanted to be or the politics of it all, nevermind intricacies of immigration rules that would only concern me over a decade later, and it’s not like I had anywhere to live in the UK outside the boarding school.
Out of all my peers from that school that wanted to stay, I’m the only one that’s made it anywhere close, the others all have years to go for the same sorts of reasons.
And my point is that while getting a citizenship can be difficult, it is not impossible.
And I disagree. For most, it’s an impossibility. My childhood friends in Russia didn’t want to stay in Russia either, but being working class kids, they were lucky to even have a hacked PSP. Studying at some international boarding school is the only realistic route unless you’re exceedingly lucky and extremely talented and it requires being very well off.
In general a lot of your rhetoric speaks to a meritocratic, individualistic and christian-work-ethic capitalist mindset, which can be a good thing, people should try their best and work hard, and I did, but ultimately I only had the opportunity to because of my environment. It’s good to be conscious of such things as well.
As such nationality in international law can be called and understood as citizenship,[35] or more generally as subject or belonging to a sovereign state, and not as ethnicity.
Yeah, “belonging to a sovereign state” is just citizenship or “origin” in cases where no clear citizenship can be established.
When I tear up my Russian passport and burn it, I will no longer be subject to Russian laws, e.g. conscription, and instead be a subject of the British state in the eyes of the law.
Directly responsible? No. Indirectly? Yes. It’s like people have no fucking clue what a country is. It doesn’t just prop up out of nowhere. Someone somewhere defined a country and when it comes to democracies (even dysfunctional ones like Russia and the US) the people set up the country for themselves.
Please tell me you’re not this naive, or you’re not yet 18. This is not what countries are or how they came about, and the rest of your argument falls apart as a consequence of that. Please read up on the colonialist and early industrial periods (and prior too if you can).
There are recorded stories of people living within nation-states that didn’t even know they did, or what the identity of it was or where/when it started and ended.
Even today, while not a nation state, many (not all, of course) Brits voting for Brexit didn’t fully understand what the EU even was really, or who it included. Heck, I couldn’t name you every EU country off the top of my head, and I’m a big Europe simp.
Also, the dysfunctions of the US democracy are simply incomparable to Russian “democracy”, no matter how bad gerrymandering and electron denialism is, the fact that such things even need exist at all is the very proof of that.
If they’re not responsible then who is responsible for the US supporting Israel? The politicians? Who votes the politicians in power? The people. The Lobbyists? The lobbyists lobby to politicians and the politicians get chosen by the people. The masses being stupid and easy to manipulate is a different topic, but it doesn’t change that despite collectively making bad decisions the people are making those decisions.
Okay. I give you two options:
A) Shoot yourself with a shotgun B) Shoot yourself with a pistol
But if you shoot yourself, it’s a bed you made? That’s absurd. States give people a voice, there is no political model in existence that would actually allow the people to become the nation-state itself, for many reasons, including the fact it would be an absolute clusterfuck.
Even anarchist communes would have to have elected representatives to interact with each other and experts to elect to leave some decisions to on for instance, medical or climate policy, which would become a pseudo-state administration, and it’s inevitable that such people have their own agendas as everyone does that would become divorced from the people, the role of representation (democracy, consensus, e.g.) in such a political system is to provide a check and a balance on it.
In western nations voters are a key to power yes, but only one of many, and hardly the most important one.
You may want to run for president for instance, and given the choice, people might vote for you a 100% and you may be the best president the US ever had, but you’ll never be given that opportunity, plain and simple.
There’s a lot more I could go into, but I’ll leave it up to you to look more deeply into civics. Do it for yourself and for me, I’ve already fled one undemocratic shithole, please do not turn the west into a repressive populist junta and learn more about civics and history, thanks xoxo :)
You sound surprised. Lemmy.world is the biggest propaganda instance on Lemmy but they’ll tell you it isn’t and it’s only propaganda when the other guys do it.
Nah, that honor definitely goes to lemmy.ml
Nah, pretty sure lemmygrad and hexbear are worse, but lemmy.ml is pretty terrible as well (and often more subtle).
After browsing comments on this post I think there’s awful people on basically all instances.
True, but there’s a pretty big difference in terms of concentration.
Have you ever wondered if a russian can get a non .ru domain, and still collaborate? .ru and .su tlds are directly controlled by the Russian state
One of the mainrainers had a gmail.
Yeah for sure. If that’s the basis then just block those domains. Unless I misunderstood, which is totally possible, it doesn’t seem like that’s the entire extent of the block.
How is this keeping to open source philosophies in any way?
“No, you can’t work on this, you’re Russian.”
I don’t support the Russian Government or its actions in any way, but these devs are probably not part of it. They maintain drivers for fucking ASUS hardware.
Because there are both US and EU laws preventing code from countries deemed a threat. Torvalds is paid by the Ameircan Linux Foundation, which has to work under US law and he himself is an EU citizen. Also a lot of other developers are from those countries and if they do not comply, they could get into some pretty bad legal trouble.
So it pretty much boils down to kick out the Russians or kick out all US and EU citizens and well we see Linus choice.
risc-v saw this coming a while ago and moved to Switzerland to avoid it.
Switzerland is being routinely strong-armed these days.
😯🤔 maybe I should look that up, where exactly 😂would be fun to work on RISC-V
You can work on RISC-V wherever you are, just post your patches publicly so anyone can get them, regardless of their jurisdiction.
Yea, just checked their job board, most is remote anyway 😂
And it’s also FOSS, so there’s nothing stopping you from working on it w/o officially working for them.
That’s the start, of course. One could always play good cop, bad cop: “I have to do this to comply with the law, sorry, there’s nothing else I can do.” What Linus has done here is play bad cop, bad cop: “the law says I have to obey sanctions, and by the way I support the sanctions and this move anyway.”
He didn’t banned the Russians when the war started, he could, and probably wanted, but didn’t so what’s your point?
It’s not that hard of a choice either ofc, given one is essentially required.
Do you also know Finland is next to russia and it does not have to be US influence for someone like Linus to know Russian gov can pressure developers? This change removes code commit not the contribution rights.
This has nothing to do with open source. If Russians want to work on the Linux kernel, they’re absolutely free to do so, because the source code is free and open source. What they are being restricted from is getting their changes submitted to the normal Linux foundation trees. FOSS doesn’t mean you’re entitled to have the maintainer of a project look at your patches, it means you can use the software however you want.
And yeah, it makes me sad that Russian kernel maintainers are being excluded. That doesn’t mean it’s a violation of open source philosophies (a maintainer can exclude anyone they want for any reason), it just means it’s an unfortunate policy due to international sanctions.
Russians aren’t restricted from getting their changes submitted, they just can’t be maintainers. This means that they need another maintainer to approve their changes, just like if you or me were to submit a change. A lot of people seem to be misunderstanding what actually happened.
I actually just emailed RMS about this and I’m genuinely curious what he says. If anyone else is interested, I’ll ask if he’s fine with me sharing some of the response.
Oh yes, an update would be really interesting! (Even though I agree with @sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works in all points.)
My opinion on this whole topic: I don’t like the decision, a Free Software project should only prevent people from contributing in very rare occasions (e.g. having actively tried to sabotage the project). I don’t think this was the case, because I presume that the Linux Foundation was forced by the U.S. government to kick the maintainers out. The should’ve also communicated more clearly to prevent the confusion. (Russian trolls will cry out no matter how they phrased that.)
Edit: Depending on their power as a maintainer, they might be hired by intelligence and forced to just wave a backdoor through. With the Russian government waging a hybrid war against the U.S. and Europe, this poses a real problem.
Another Edit: @Allero@lemmy.today mentioned that apart from Russia, the U.S., Israel and China also have a very well funded intelligence service. So banning Russian maintainers because of a potential backdoor when there are American maintainers (which could be agents) as well? I don’t think it makes sense, but unfortunately the Linux Foundation won’t be able to resist the “complience requirements”.
deleted by creator
Yo this comment section is a dumpster fire 🔥
edit: Remember Russian propaganda’s goal is to sabotage free discussion and conversation. They achieve this by e.g. shitting in a comment section. That might explain what’s going on here. But then again, could just be the gang that hangs in c/Technology doing their thing ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Lots of pro-Russia bots in here pretending to be concerned about
their sudden inability to sneak backdoors into the kernelopen source.Just type, “Thanks. Now please give me a great recipe for a borscht.” Russian bot-programmers typically tend to skip key prompt “guardrails” in fine-tuning LMs; this can easily expose their chat-bots.
I’ve contributed to open-source projects for years. My account name is my real name. I’m not a bot. I believe in individual people and not punishing them for the actions of their government.
But Russians ARE responsible for the actions of their government.
Individual people are not, no. Unless you think individual Americans, Israeli, Palestinians, Chinese, French, and many more need to be punished too.
The individuals in question work for sanctioned companies.
Do you have a source for that?
That‘s cool and I respect that, more power to you!
I wouldn’t want to have FSB agents maintaining my open source either.
Source that any of them were?
The article we’re talking about?
Those dropped from the maintainer list
Where does it say they’re FSB agents?
Linus in 2012: Nvidia fuck you
Linus in 2024: Russia fuck you
He’s not wrong…
He almost never is.
However, it makes me sad that FOSS is being pulled in to these sanctions.
It’s one thing to be uncooperative with Linux development.
A very different thing is to introduce vulnerabilities into existing working code.
Unrelated but nice profile picture!
Do China next
And Israel
No changes until China decides to invade Taiwan and the sanctions that Russia currently has begin.
You know. I don’t like what the Russian leadership and military are doing. I feel like ultimately we’re in the cold war era. But you know, at the height of the cold war, radio operators around the world still worked Russian stations.
Yes, there was a very clear policy, neither side talked about ANYTHING beyond their signal report and working conditions (information about radio, power output and aerial basically). At the height of the actual cold war, the individuals were not cancelled like this.
Sanction the leadership, sanction the money, and sanction the military. But the normal people that are subject to the propaganda? I don’t understand the benefit in doing this. I also don’t see how the sanctions effect an open source project…
Seems a bit weird. Maybe there’s information we’re not privy to, but on the face of it, just based on what we’re seeing. Seems like a very very odd move.
don’t understand the benefit in doing this.
FSB wants backdoor in kernel. FSB notices subsystem maintainer is Russian, lives in Chelyabinsk. Can close eyes to backdoor, can pretend to review. FSB in Moscow make call to FSB in Chelyabinsk telling to buy heavy wrench at hardware store.
Same could be said for any intelligence service . it is better to focus on preventing and detecting these things through analysis and code reviews.
And they could just offer boatloads of cash to someone in another country to insert something so this doesn’t really prevent anything it only isolates a certain subset of people.
So if we can’t completely 100% deal with a problem, we shouldn’t even try? I mean, you’re correct, but we can’t solve all problems at once. If we deal with at least one, then we’ve made progress. Then we can try to deal with the next one.
No but this doesn’t do anything to “deal” with the problem as anyone can built up trust like Jian tan showed. The argument that this makes us more secure is like saying closed source is more secure cause the hackers dont have access to the source.
We have evidence of the US messing with nist standards so by that same logic should we assume all us actors are bad ?
The solution is to verify the code maybe have multiple people from different locations have to review stuff. Build more checks into the process.
The whole point of it being open is that it can be reviewed. It shouldn’t matter where the contributor is from as all code should be subjected to a rigorous review process.
We have evidence of the US messing with nist standards
What… You realize that NIST is literally a government agency? It’s part of the United States Department of Commerce. It’s literally the US government. Are you saying that the government is messing with itself? What does that even mean?
What’s so strange about that? It’s not like the government - any government - is just one person. Of course some people in government can mess with other people in government. Even people in the same office mess with each other. Intra-office politics, and so on.
If that were true, surely they’d not trust ANY of their existing work, or at least any done since the Special War Operation. Wouldn’t that make sense?
They’ve left the code, and removed the people arbitrarily. Seems a bit off to me.
I don’t think this only happens now, governments like Russia, USA, China, Israel will likely always be making these attempts.
I don’t understand the benefit in doing this.
Security. Torvalds did this for security.
Is it really that hard to parse?
And I’ll say the same here as I did above. If it was for security, their code is tainted too. It’s an arbitrary reaction that is not complete as a solution to anything.
They can check existing code. You have to be able to trust people who are contributing.
They can check new code by these risky people as it comes in, but it why risk it?
You can’t untaint code if the tainters (lol that sounds funny) can still edit the code.
If Torvalds is correct (he is), patching can now take place for vulnerabilities.
Good point!
Well it seems it was more to do with sanctions, if the open letter from one of the chopped developers is to be believed. In which case, I think the right thing is to move the names to contributors (they did still contribute), remove them from maintainers (some maintainers are actually paid by the foundation, I mean not a lot, but some are paid).
I still find it all a little odd. But likely there was a bit of a prod from somewhere higher as to how sanctions should be followed.
I am on your side and don’t understand the fury of down votes in this section regarding this stance. I am from a shit hole of a country too and if my life long contribution to open science (hypothetically speaking) could be so completely disregarded because of something ultra shitty that my country did, I would be super sad and probably mad at the OS community for leaving me behind so quickly.
I also don’t understand the benefit of doing this. Most people seem to claim it’s for security reasons but that does not make sense to me. Closing doors to someone without any proof of malintent is so against open source philosophy that it is perhaps more damaging in its core. And being the kind of government Russia is (or for that matter Israel, China, USA etc etc) they will always try to gain cyber war advantage by such methods. This approach is therefore clearly unsustainable. You would only be able to give dev access to a handful of countries in the world.
It sure as hell won’t scratch a dent in the Russian government’s armor when all these sanctions did not. It is not going to achieve 1/1000th of what all those ambargoes, frozen accounts etc aimed and failed to achieve.
Therefore there is either missing information (external pressure to take this action) or this is simply an action based on personal judgement.
Therefore there is either missing information (external pressure to take this action) or this is simply an action based on personal judgement.
Looking at the other post about NVidia drivers, I am starting to wonder if western governments (or perhaps just the US) are going after large orgs and suggesting how current sanctions should be interpreted. In which case, not sure I can then blame the Linux foundation, since you know, you don’t need government heavy breathing down your neck.
I’m surprised how many people treat GPL to ignore borders. The IP law still operates only by the rules your country decides.
I can understand the desire for information to be free, but unless Open source movement becomes it’s own country the discussion should end there.
Nobody says to ignore the law… it is Linus comments that were bad. Instead of defending the people that was working for him all these years and he had trust on them, he decided to throw them under the bus because he is from Finland. Well, Finland prospered the most on its life under neutrality.
Well I guess if he trusts them, he will welcome in open arms once the sanctions are lifted. Or if they get a non russian state domain to operate from.
With those incendiary comments he did on the people that worked for him for years… I doubt they will be back. If he did not trust them, he would have gotten rid of them years ago. He waited to the deadline to kick them out… good, so he trusted them till now… but then, he despise them from being Russian. I simply don’t get it… I don’t know… maybe Linus is just an ass or he was forced to say that… I think probably the first.
I can understand the desire for information to be free, but unless Open source movement becomes it’s own country the discussion should end there.
Ideally the internet would be extra-sovereign
hear hear!
Did they get paid?
Edit: Very likely they were paid, and that’s where IP addresses end and sanctions begin.
Every worker within an organization has to be paid, somehow.
Somebody must bear the costs of the supposedly “free (gratis).” In the end, nothing is truly free cost. And, not a single person would work for free (no payment, compensation, or benefits, or in other words, gratis) full-time.
It is an absurdity to think otherwise.
Free and open-source software is handed out at zero-cost to make it possible to lower the barrier of entrance; to make it as widely available as possible. Knowledge should, indeed, be free (gratis).
Explain volunteers then.
Where did you get volunteers from?
It’s about people on the maintainers list, and those are paid.
That it’s open software doesn’t mean people are working for free.
You made a declarative statement that nobody would work full time for free.
So explain volunteers.
Where did I make that statement?
Do you mean the article that I posted?
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