Pfft.
what does this have to do with being anti-genocide?
It has nothing to do with it. It’s a straw-man argument. You could do the same kind of misdirection by comparing the number of US-related foreign conflicts under Trump vs Obama + Biden, and that wouldn’t prove anything either. The fact remains that a large portion of Kamala’s constituency wants an arms embargo and those people are being completely ignored.
Instead we get these astro-turf memes. Political marketing sure is wild this cycle
We actually won Florida. Scalia bum rushed the SCOTUS to shut down the count before we found out. Helped along by Roger Stone and that republican State Elections lady.
If only Al Gore had known there are zero consequences for telling everyone to trash the Congressional building.
Above all else I’m pro-civilian. When October 7th happened I was pro-civilian. When Israel began indiscriminately bombing Gaza killing 3-4 civilians for every Hamas in the best case scenario I was pro-civilian then, too.
Naturally if you have a paper-cut in one place and an arterial bleed elsewhere your time is best served focusing on the arterial bleed.
Does this change the fact that I think it’s silly to protest Biden and Harris directly and misses the bigger picture of this election relative to the risk of wedge-driving Democrats and letting the guy in who won’t even try to stop tie bleeding? No.
Anyone advocating for Palestinians is better served finding pro-Israeli voters and showing them the brutality of the IDF. When you then see a movement in the public polls, you’ll see a movement in policy & platform.
Anyone advocating for Palestinians is better served finding pro-Israeli voters and showing them the brutality of the IDF.
I worry that showing the brutality of the IDF would actually encourage those voters to double down because they like what they see. Perhaps a better way is show the humanity of the Palestinian civilians.
I think PBS NewsHour has been doing a stellar job at this. They recently highlighted the father who lost his twins and his wife in a bombing. They then interviewed an American pediatrician who volunteered in Gaza. It certainly humanizes them.
I’d also remind them that IDF is so incompetent that they’ve killed more aid workers in this conflict than any conflict previously… Even when there is directly coordination with IDF command as instructed. They’ve even killed their own hostages who had their hands raised, unarmed, and with a white flag.
It’s astounding. I’d never really fallen for the “IDF MOST MORAL ARMY IN THE WORLD” shit ever since I became interested in politics as a teen, but I took it for granted that they were at least somewhat competent, if gruesome. Turns out, no, they’re both gruesomely immoral AND gruesomely incompetent.
Every time I see IDF officials talk I get big-time Kremlin rhetoric vibes. Now I’m not here defending Hamas in any capacity, but I just tire of IDF being elevated as “the good guys.” If they’re the good guys, then their standards should have been higher. Instead, just bomb a densely-populated building, killing scores of innocents and just say (without proof), “Oh well there was a high-value Hamas target so it’s all good.” They pulled the trigger and said that one target was more valuable than the dead children they knew they would kill.
Yeah, I despise Hamas and won’t mourn the passing of the shitheads, but Israel’s conduct in murdering Palestinian civilians has been nothing short of abominable.
And unlikely to end Hamas, for that matter.
And unlikely to end Hamas, for that matter.
This is what I don’t get. Even if we take them at their word that they’re finishing this for good, did they not learn a goddamned thing from 20 years of failed US military intervention attempting the same thing? Like… here I am just a Palestinian living in a slum exacerbated by blockades just trying to raise a family and unfortunately for me Hamas now controls the neighborhood I live in and I can’t do shit about it because they’re also being supported by outside nation-states no less. On the flip-side, it seems they’re the only marginal deterrent from IDF simply annexing and bulldozing my house… Then Hamas does something stupid; but then Israel claiming to be the good guys levels my apartment and kills my mother, wife, and kids…
Yeah, you bet I would radicalize after that.
So ultimately, the IDF is further destabilizing the region, not even addressing the root causes of extremism, and sowing further October 7ths down the road when all these orphans grow up.
Worst part is, US attempts at counter-insurgency were largely destroyed by outside factors (namely, the fact that we managed to piss off half the world, and the world was right in being pissed, in invading Iraq after having acquired near-infinite goodwill simply by suffering 9/11). We developed fairly effective COIN strategies - and what’s more, we offered experienced advisers in urban COIN specifically to Israel in the immediate aftermath of October 7th.
Our advisers left, frustrated, inside of a fucking week. Because the IDF had no interest in pursuing a counter-insurgency strategy. They were interested in pursuing their fucking old world blood feud.
The hard-right government there wants there to always be chaos so they can remain in power indefinitely.
They are absolutely NOT the good guys. Israel is having a smaller scale preview of what we’d see if we had the same scenario happen under a Trump presidency. We should try to curb their worst instincts, but you have to win the bloody election first to do it, and somehow account for the fact that the majority of Americans do not give a shit about Palestine.
The last poll I saw on the issue, is that ranking issues from most important to least, Palestine ranked around #9. Behind everything from Immigration, Economy, Women’s rights etc. And opposing them is one of the most well connected, well funded special interest groups that exist in the US today, in a country that loves money in politics so much that we legalized bribery.
It’s not an accident that some of the most vocal Pro-Palestinian voices in congress were primaried.
In that political climate, the best you can do is to do harm mitigation and make sure Republicans aren’t in the driver’s seat come 2025.
Yes, I’m being pragmatic. And I’d fucking hope you would be too, when millions of lives are at stake. I donated to Palestine for 20 years. Even back when I was living on a shoestring budget while I was in college. Do the feel good shit AFTER 11/20. I’ll be right there with you.
And for the love of god, vote.
Nobody gives a shit about nonvoters in this country. If you wanted to actually affect policy, a half a dozen congressmen that are willing to throw a wrench in things to get their way goes a LOT further than useless yammering about how you’re not going to vote because ‘both sides are bad’.
A couple of Blue Dogs managed to derail single payer healthcare. We could absolutely do the same for the Palestinian issue, if you could be bothered to get off your ass and vote.
Since being primarily concerned about the genocide is that unpopular of a position then why are you so concerned? If Harris made the decision that those voters are not as important to her then that’s that. You can’t have it both ways no matter how many self-righteous posts you make online.
Sounds like you don’t actually care about what happens and just want to feel self righteous and make some noise. So… the exact kind of person I had in mind making this.
You couldn’t argue on the merits, so you went with, “Haha, sure, I’m doing bad things, but it won’t matter so why do you care?”
Do you need me to spell it out for you to make it really obvious how dumb that argument is? Or were you just trying to be facetious?
Since being primarily concerned about the genocide is that unpopular of a position then why are you so concerned?
Because elections in this country are often decided on fractions of a percentage point.
Most moral people would let 9 guilty men walk to avoid harming a single innocent
Exactly!!
This is the foundation for which all Western Judicial systems are built on: Justice Blackstone’s, “Better that 10 guilty persons escape than 1 innocent suffer.”
… And also the reason why these Prisoner Swaps with Russia make complete moral sense.
If an army has to go out of their way to explain how peaceful they are…assume the opposite.
I’d also remind them that IDF is so incompetent that they’ve killed more aid workers in this conflict than any conflict previously… Even when there is directly coordination with IDF command as instructed. They’ve even killed their own hostages who had their hands raised, unarmed, and with a white flag.
The incompetence goes even further as of May of this year 278 IDF were killed by friendly fire. I can only imagine that friendly fire death list has increase since the May reporting. The IDF seems to be shooting anything that moves, friend or foe.
The IDF didn’t kill aid workers on accident. I refuse to believe that all, or most, are accidental with the number of absolute noncombatants (journos, aid workers, etc) that have been illegally killed (killing press workers and aid workers deliberately is a war crime).
Like others have said, it’s a feature, not a bug. They’re not incompetent - they know who they’re killing AND DON’T REALLY CARE.
Republicans should never be in power ever again, period. Biggest reason isn’t even what Trump would do if we had a terrorist attack.
It’s global warming.
The US has a service economy and produces a quarter of all global waste/emissions. We produce that much waste without actually producing anything. At least China can claim that they MAKE stuff. We don’t. We pollute for FUN.
Even if we completely reversed course and went 100% all in on renewables and climate change mitigation, we’re looking at millions, possibly hundreds of millions dead in the poorest parts of the world in the coming decades because of our actions. And that’s the best case scenario. The way we’re headed, we’re looking at the end of life as we know it.
The very least we can do is push the government towards addressing the problems we’ve caused, and to do that, at the bare minimum we need to make sure we never let a Republican step foot in the White House again.
Everything else pales in comparison to the kind of damage we cause every time we let a climate change denier control the direction of US policy on global warming.
I agree in principle with the idea that the ideology espoused by the current incarnation of the republican party needs to die forever.
But generally (not specifically) it’s critical not to have a single party system.
If I was Sherman I’d perhaps say that the democratic party should never have power again. But obviously times and platforms change.
The fight is against ideology. As badly as I want the republican party to fuck off and die it’s critical that they reincarnate as something else because in the long run a single party system isn’t the answer
We’ve had that exact scenario happen before, where one party died off entirely. Within a couple of years, they split off again into two different parties. And that’s exactly what will happen again. Democrats aren’t some kind of monolith, they have everything from Corporate Dems like Pelosi that made millions with her inside trading, don’t-rock-the-boat neoliberals that would be considered conservatives anywhere else, to leftists that would love to eat the rich and get money out of politics using just about any means necessary.
They’re only grouped up now because the alternative is well… Republicans.
It’s obviously difficult to reconcile the specific to the general, but as long as we’re in agreement that the ideal number of political blocks is >1 then I think we’re in agreement.
Absolutely disagree. Part of the criticism leveled at the Democratic Party is that it has internal disagreements - they don’t always vote the party line. That means the Republican Party as a single party would be devastating, but Democrats would only loosely keep their hold.
We’ve had far more people in recent elections wanting to vote for a third party but deciding against it because it would waste their vote. With one useless ® party removed, that just becomes second party.
If you actually think Trump will be better for Palestine than Kamela… you either don’t know he literally moved Israeli government buildings to Palestine owned territory or you have brain worms
You don’t even need to go that far, the guy literally said that Israel is going to slow…
He also repealed a law that prevented Israeli settlements on occupied Palestinian territory. Netanyahu was so grateful, he named a settlement after Trump in Golan Heights.
Looked at your profile, mostly genocide apologia. Wow, I’m so shocked.
You seem to be under the utterly idiotic impression, that pro-palistinians will vote for Trump, someone who will continue to kill Palestinians. You are saying that just because people want one candidate to be better, and stop committing genocide, that they will vote for someone who will worsen the genocide. Almost all pro-palistinians are still voting for Harris, they just want her to pledge to stop a genocide that the US government is aiding. There is no logical process for you to have used to reach this idea. You are simply a zionist looking for approval.
Yeah, wtf, I thought I was going crazy reading this post. Palestinian protesters aren’t going to vote for Trump, and them protesting the DNC is not going to increase his chances of winning.
They should keep protesting and putting pressure on the Democratic party. They should vote for Harris, but keep up the pressure, and not listen to people like OP.
Also, imagine thinking that Palestinian protestors are doing it to feel superior. They’re doing it because their tax dollars have gone toward a genocide that has thus far killed 40k people. They have no choice that their money goes toward this shit. They should not have to think about whether their protest will hurt an election campaign, nor should they care. They care that their country (even when there is a Democratic president) is arming a genocide and doesn’t seem like it has much plans to stop.
them protesting the DNC is not going to increase his chances of winning.
That is planely false. This election is likely to be a very close one, dictate by a handful of votes in a few key swing states. Because that’s how it pretty much always is, especially in these last few elections. Even if these protest change only a small amount of votes, it will have a massive effect on the chances.
Also, imagine thinking that Palestinian protestors are doing it to feel superior.
That may not be the explicit goal. However the never Harris crowd is putting women, the LGBT, the environment, the poor, and other people at risk because their own comfort is more important to them. Yes, Harris is fucking terrible. But the deaths of Palestinians will be worse under Trump, and will also lead to the deaths of more people over all. It is a trolly problem that they’re willing to let more people die on, because they want to feel superior than those who are willing to pull the lever to save lives.
Here, I’ll just copy paste the bit that I wrote on “why” that’s not a good idea before the election is over and done with.
They are absolutely NOT the good guys. Israel is having a smaller scale preview of what we’d see if we had the same scenario happen under a Trump presidency. We should try to curb their worst instincts, but you have to win the bloody election first to do it, and somehow account for the fact that the majority of Americans do not give a shit about Palestine.
The last poll I saw on the issue, is that ranking issues from most important to least, Palestine ranked around #9. Behind everything from Immigration, Economy, Women’s rights etc. And opposing them is one of the most powerful special interest groups that exist in the US today, in a country that loves money in politics so much that we legalized bribery.
In short, the majority of Americans do not give a fuck about Palestine. And AIPAC is one of the most well funded, well connected special interest groups in the US. If Harris says that now? She absolutely loses the election.
It’s not an accident that some of the most vocal Pro-Palestinian voices in congress were primaried.
In that political climate, the best you can do is to do harm mitigation and make sure Republicans aren’t in the driver’s seat come 2025.
Yes, I’m being pragmatic. And I’d fucking hope you would be too, when millions of lives are at stake. I donated to Palestine for 20 years. Even back when I was living on a shoestring budget while I was in college. Do the feel good shit AFTER 11/20. I’ll be right there with you.
And for the love of god, vote.
Nobody gives a shit about nonvoters in this country. If you wanted to actually affect policy, a half a dozen congressmen that are willing to throw a wrench in things to get their way goes a LOT further than useless yammering about how you’re not going to vote because ‘both sides are bad’. We needed a few more, but we just lost two that we already had, because folks decided they’d rather talk shit than bother showing up for the primaries.
A couple of Blue Dogs managed to derail single payer healthcare. We could absolutely do the same for the Palestinian issue, if you could be bothered to get off your ass and vote. Sure, they’ll lose their seats in the next election, just like the blue dogs did, but the job will be done. In the meantime, how about we don’t throw out the baby with the bath water, because if Trump wins, there won’t be anything or anyone left to save.
Did you not read my comment? Everything I said was about the fact that most pro-Palestinians are still voting for Harris, but just want her to be a good person.
You want her to commit political suicide before winning an election.
I’m with you. I agree with you that Israel needs to chill the fuck out. But instead of just going with my feelings, I also looked at the polls. Most Americans don’t care, and AIPAC is very, VERY well funded. And US politics runs on money. And most of the folks that would decide the election? The ‘swing’ voters that can’t make up their mind on whether or not they’re voting for Harris or Trump even after he tried to overthrow the government in 2020? A lot of them think Palestinians are just terrorists. They’re looking at the news the right wing is funding of Palestinian/Muslim protests in Europe and thinking, “Well fuck, I don’t want those nutjobs over here?”
Giving that endorsement right now would be a dream come true for Republicans. They’d finally have the attack angle they need.
Harris says that now? She loses. Trump is president, and Palestine is even more fucked than they are now. And everyone else gets fucked with them too. You want the Democrats to change course? You have to change that calculus first. Until you can prove that you vote in greater numbers, and more consistently than the brain dead ‘swing’ voters in middle America, nothing will change. Promising you’re not going to vote is the absolute worst thing you could do in that situation.
I’m being realistic about the state of the country I live in. You’re not. This isn’t the time for pie-in-the-sky idealistic bullshit. If Trump wins, we’re all fucked. We’re not going to get a do-over if we lose this one.
If you’re a real person, then you have serious reading comprehension issues you are once again saying that I said something I didn’t, I said nothing about not voting, I infact said the opposite. The rest of your assertions I don’t have time to respond to currently, and I’m not going to waste that time if you’re an AI as I expect.
Translation: I can’t actually make a proper argument as to how my position does anything to further my goals, so I’m going to pretend I don’t have time… while wasting time on the comments section of a meme making fun of people exactly like me.
Boop boop. Bloviating idiot detected. Commencing snark protocol.
Once again, failing to respond to my point, by saying something unrelated. I happen to be a student, that means I can’t type out a whole response to several points while in a class that I need to focus on. You seem to forget that people have lives outside of the internet.
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It is true that the majority of Americans are more favorable of Israel than Palestine, however, according to a recent poll of 1,000 Americans, by YouGov, petitioned by the CEPR, 52% of Americans support an arms embargo on Israel. In another poll by YouGov of 3 swing states, it is shown that in Pennsylvania 34% of respondents said they would be more likely to vote for Harris, compared to 7% who said they’d be less likely to if she vowed to stop supplying weapons to Israel. Similarly, in Arizona it was 35% to 5%, and in Georgia, it was 39% to 5%.
Sources: https://www.cepr.net/press-release/poll-majority-of-americans-say-biden-should-halt-weapons-shipments-to-israel/ https://zeteo.com/p/poll-harris-democrats-gaza-ceasefire-arms-embargo
Polls can be worded to show bias. The primaries showed exactly what the current reality of the situation is. When AIPAC weighs in, the candidate they’re trying to burn loses. They ‘burned’ two members of the squad and left two. The two they chose not to campaign against won their primaries, they two they did? Lost.
It’s almost like they wanted to send a message. “We can fuck you up, don’t get too far out of line”.
At least as it stands now, the number of people who are willing to actually show up to vote for congressmen/women that vocally support Palestine isn’t enough to match the funding advantage their opponents will have.
All the more reason that telling folks to not vote unless they get what they want is counterproductive. No amount of talking and protesting or complaining online matters. The only thing that counts is actually showing up and voting.
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Dude, fuck off, if all your going to do is insult me I’m not going to continue talking to you. I happen to be using a phone keyboard, making it extremely easy to misspell something.
There isn’t a keyboard in the world that mangles “previous” to “previse”.
But okay, lets pretend you’re not a dum-dums. I don’t want to be hurting your feelings or anything. You don’t seem to handle that very well.
Over 55% support at least conditional aid to Israel. The notion that most Americans don’t care about the genocide in Gaza is entirely false. Just because it’s not a top issue when comparing to others like immigration or abortion does not mean voters don’t care. The anti-genocide protestors are Democratic Voters, they are likely voters. These are the kind of voters that go door knocking, the kind of voters you want if you want to win a campaign.
Pivoting left on Gaza is critical if Harris wants to secure a Victory. Hundreds of thousands of likely voters all over swing states would be gained of Harris makes Israel a partisan issue. That pivot would gain her massive support and momentum, especially in critical swing states. It’s correct on a moral standpoint, it’s correct on a political standpoint, it’s also correct on the standpoint of international law.
An April 2024 poll of likely voters across the U.S. found that 30% strongly supported withholding military funds to Israel until the attacks on Gaza stop; another 25% somewhat supported that conditional aid policy.
Below we asked all respondents what minimum combination of policies would secure (for non-Biden voters) or solidify (for Biden voters) a vote for Biden for President. A third or more voters in every state except Minnesota said a lasting ceasefire was among the minimum policies that would be needed to secure solidify their votes
Although voters are split on whether they approve or disapprove of Biden’s handling of the war, the vast majority (≥ ~75%) across all states still support an immediate and permanent ceasefire. Only a small minority of voters, from 11.2% to 16.1% in Minnesota and Pennsylvania, respectively, strongly approve of the President’s approach on Gaza. Of those, the vast majority in each state (≥64%) strongly support an immediate and permanent ceasefire. That is to say, a change in approach would not lose those votes, but staying on the current path risks doing so.
Get fucked zionist.
Yeah I’m sure repeatedly saying that Trump is gonna be worse over and over is gonna win over the Palestinian-Americans who’s families are still in the region and will continue to be at risk for being killed if nothing is done. And with everyone saying this election will be close leaving those votes on the table and just expecting them to follow along cause at least the Democrats won’t directly get involved seems like a bad strategy.
This assumes that the protesters won’t vote for Harris come election time.
Protests are important - especially obnoxious, inconvenient ones. If Harris and the general public can’t ignore the protesters, Harris is more likely to act on the protested issue instead of sidestepping it.
unless an arms embargo is put into place before the election, I will not be voting for harris. if the PSL is on the ballot in my state, I will be voting for them, otherwise it’ll probably be Stein. I’m sure I’m far from the only person with this opinion.
unfortunately, with her responses to Palestinian protestors at her campaign events (the whole “I’m speaking” debacle), and the administration averaging about 1-2 arms shipments to Israel a day since October, I don’t see her campaign walking back their stance and imposing an embargo, so she’s probably not getting my vote.
If she’s serious about wanting to win, I think she needs to pivot hard on Gaza. There are so many that would want to vote for Harris if she just made that change. And I can’t blame any of them for it, having pro-genocide be a red-line is completely valid. It’s completely insane that Trump can get away with acting like the peace ticket, wtf has happened to the Democratic party since 2016. Somehow it’s the pro-war and anti-immigration party now, even though those kind of voters will still ride Republican regardless.
tldr: they support the Palestinian genocide because it will stop global warming(see below for “details”)
this is a bad post.
…
what’s your math here?
pro-palestinian protesters vote republican? or don’t vote?
i don’t see the line you’re trying to draw.
The IDF is concluding a genocide that most countries have been complicit in for decades.
people are upset about that and protesting.
you’re not making any sense.
UPDATE: this is their math they gave me:
Apparently the hope of OP is that if the genocide against Palestine can be completed, global warming won’t be so bad in a few decades.
Not a great post.
OP is making fun of some of the actors here on Lemmy who will go “I won’t vote for genocide! I’m voting 3rd party!” Which because of America’s broken ass electoral system, will absolutely let Trump win, and we end up with a new Bush + Iraq 2.0, as 3rd party candidates basically helped give Bush the presidency by 200 votes and kicked off two decades of fucking bullshit and ridiculously bad climate policies that will only get worse. Vs Harriss who has thrown a lot of support behind legit climate policies
It’s a really obtuse way of posting a “congratulations you played yourself” meme at single issue 3rd party voters
Oh kay, thanks.
I appreciate you shedding some light on the thought process here.
for W, I’d point a lot more to the Supreme Court allowing Florida(run by Ws brother) to stop counting votes again because W was about to lose the count again before I’d blame 3rd party voters.
And gerrymandering.
And voter disqualification/obfuscation.
literally wheeling away voting machines on election day too.
Nah, people voted who they voted for, and that’s their right.
there’s plenty of much more significant factors to point at without denigrating the right to vote.
and I’m not railing at you, i appreciate the context.
And first past the post voting system which makes any 3rd party other than the biggest 2 parties a troll
great point, fptp can get outta here
yeah all the same its because all of the things you would blame that we can’t have republicans have any more power at all and we need to make them extinct from the political landscape. Those blame issues are getting worse when they are in office so we need literally 100% effort to not have them in office.
I agree with conservatives not being in political office as much as i agree that everyone gets to vote who they want to vote for.
which is a lot.
Here, I made you a picture, this seemed like it’d be more your speed, if you had trouble following that argument.
you think israel should complete their genocide…and the genocide of palestine will improve global warming.
your critical reasoning and your regular reasoning is critically flawed and objectively inaccurate.
I don’t feel like retyping my last comment, so just click my name and read my most recent one.
i read it, seems completely irrelevant to the topic.
you should slow down, your post and comments are not making any sense.
It’s not a hard argument to follow. The problem might be on your end.
not hard to follow, and not correct.
a palestinian genocide does not prevent millions of climate-related deaths.
I think there’s definitely some miscommunication here, rather than just misinterpretation. I don’t think Varyk is in opposition to your essential point.
They’re also protesting the republicans, but don’t let facts get in the way of you trying to tell everyone that you’re superior to people protesting genocide. 😉
They should only be protesting the Gee Oh Pee
They’re protesting against genocide, so it’s fitting they protest against those who aid genocide. Democrats are currently in power and are fully supporting israel’s campaign of genocide, so they deserve to be protested against. If democrats do not want to be protested, they could stop their support for genocide. This does not seem like too much to ask for, right?
Imagine thinking anything would have been different had a Democrat been at the helm when 9/11 happened. Trying to ridicule people of conscience will regularly not go how you expect.
It’s actually theorized that Bush being ultimately elected was what caused 9/11 to slip past the usual degree of scrutiny already in place.
The delay in beginning the transition process from Bush suing over the recounts meant that the usual reports on the plans that had been uncovered weren’t delivered until whoever had gotten them would be having to prioritize what to look at, and Bush is not famous for his ability to prioritize well.
Had Gore Won, there’s a non zero chance he could have been riding into the midterm election cycle on having stopped what would have been the most catastrophic attack on America since Pearl Harbor.
Feeling like more protests should be happening where netanyahu can see them… but what do I know 🤷
I’d like it for the protests to have an actionable outcome that helps everyone involved, however this doesn’t seem to be the goal of them. Lots of astroturfing, lots of bad-faith arguments.
Keep in mind this is an election year, there’s always fuckery and pressure from outside influences during election years.
