Anyone advocating for Palestinians is better served finding pro-Israeli voters and showing them the brutality of the IDF.
I worry that showing the brutality of the IDF would actually encourage those voters to double down because they like what they see. Perhaps a better way is show the humanity of the Palestinian civilians.
I think PBS NewsHour has been doing a stellar job at this. They recently highlighted the father who lost his twins and his wife in a bombing. They then interviewed an American pediatrician who volunteered in Gaza. It certainly humanizes them.
I’d also remind them that IDF is so incompetent that they’ve killed more aid workers in this conflict than any conflict previously… Even when there is directly coordination with IDF command as instructed. They’ve even killed their own hostages who had their hands raised, unarmed, and with a white flag.
It’s astounding. I’d never really fallen for the “IDF MOST MORAL ARMY IN THE WORLD” shit ever since I became interested in politics as a teen, but I took it for granted that they were at least somewhat competent, if gruesome. Turns out, no, they’re both gruesomely immoral AND gruesomely incompetent.
Every time I see IDF officials talk I get big-time Kremlin rhetoric vibes. Now I’m not here defending Hamas in any capacity, but I just tire of IDF being elevated as “the good guys.” If they’re the good guys, then their standards should have been higher. Instead, just bomb a densely-populated building, killing scores of innocents and just say (without proof), “Oh well there was a high-value Hamas target so it’s all good.” They pulled the trigger and said that one target was more valuable than the dead children they knew they would kill.
Yeah, I despise Hamas and won’t mourn the passing of the shitheads, but Israel’s conduct in murdering Palestinian civilians has been nothing short of abominable.
This is what I don’t get. Even if we take them at their word that they’re finishing this for good, did they not learn a goddamned thing from 20 years of failed US military intervention attempting the same thing? Like… here I am just a Palestinian living in a slum exacerbated by blockades just trying to raise a family and unfortunately for me Hamas now controls the neighborhood I live in and I can’t do shit about it because they’re also being supported by outside nation-states no less. On the flip-side, it seems they’re the only marginal deterrent from IDF simply annexing and bulldozing my house… Then Hamas does something stupid; but then Israel claiming to be the good guys levels my apartment and kills my mother, wife, and kids…
Yeah, you bet I would radicalize after that.
So ultimately, the IDF is further destabilizing the region, not even addressing the root causes of extremism, and sowing further October 7ths down the road when all these orphans grow up.
Worst part is, US attempts at counter-insurgency were largely destroyed by outside factors (namely, the fact that we managed to piss off half the world, and the world was right in being pissed, in invading Iraq after having acquired near-infinite goodwill simply by suffering 9/11). We developed fairly effective COIN strategies - and what’s more, we offered experienced advisers in urban COIN specifically to Israel in the immediate aftermath of October 7th.
Our advisers left, frustrated, inside of a fucking week. Because the IDF had no interest in pursuing a counter-insurgency strategy. They were interested in pursuing their fucking old world blood feud.
It’s like being handed a fucking cheat sheet of what not to do and gleefully and knowingly doing everything listed and more. It’s insane.
Or it would be insane if one was operating on the premise that the Israeli government was interested in anything other than genocide as a final solution to the Palestine issue. What Israel has done is great for continuing to lock both sides into an insane war of annihilation that will not end well for either party.
They are absolutely NOT the good guys. Israel is having a smaller scale preview of what we’d see if we had the same scenario happen under a Trump presidency. We should try to curb their worst instincts, but you have to win the bloody election first to do it, and somehow account for the fact that the majority of Americans do not give a shit about Palestine.
The last poll I saw on the issue, is that ranking issues from most important to least, Palestine ranked around #9. Behind everything from Immigration, Economy, Women’s rights etc. And opposing them is one of the most well connected, well funded special interest groups that exist in the US today, in a country that loves money in politics so much that we legalized bribery.
It’s not an accident that some of the most vocal Pro-Palestinian voices in congress were primaried.
In that political climate, the best you can do is to do harm mitigation and make sure Republicans aren’t in the driver’s seat come 2025.
Yes, I’m being pragmatic. And I’d fucking hope you would be too, when millions of lives are at stake. I donated to Palestine for 20 years. Even back when I was living on a shoestring budget while I was in college. Do the feel good shit AFTER 11/20. I’ll be right there with you.
And for the love of god, vote.
Nobody gives a shit about nonvoters in this country. If you wanted to actually affect policy, a half a dozen congressmen that are willing to throw a wrench in things to get their way goes a LOT further than useless yammering about how you’re not going to vote because ‘both sides are bad’.
A couple of Blue Dogs managed to derail single payer healthcare. We could absolutely do the same for the Palestinian issue, if you could be bothered to get off your ass and vote.
Since being primarily concerned about the genocide is that unpopular of a position then why are you so concerned? If Harris made the decision that those voters are not as important to her then that’s that. You can’t have it both ways no matter how many self-righteous posts you make online.
Sounds like you don’t actually care about what happens and just want to feel self righteous and make some noise. So… the exact kind of person I had in mind making this.
You couldn’t argue on the merits, so you went with, “Haha, sure, I’m doing bad things, but it won’t matter so why do you care?”
Do you need me to spell it out for you to make it really obvious how dumb that argument is? Or were you just trying to be facetious?
Not voting for a candidate who is tacitly supporting a genocide on that basis is not “doing bad things” no matter how much bad faith spin you try to add. The candidate has to earn the vote and that applies to non-voters too. Some people care about certain issues enough to abstain from voting on that basis and others vote strategically because its not a team sport. You just want validation for your own voting decision by implying those abstaining from voting are directly or indirectly responsible for your candidate’s opponent winning which they are not. If Harris wins or loses it will be based on her and her party’s policy and campaign decisions.
Did typing that feel good? I mean, if you’re going to be playing ‘fuck around and find out’ with millions of lives, at least you should be getting something out of it, right?
If “She’s not Trump” isn’t all you need to know about how you should act in this election, I already know everything I need to know about how much of an actual ally you are as opposed to a willing collaborator who just doesn’t want the stink of being an out fascist.
The other side are fascists running on doing fascism.
That is the entire discussion.
If that is not enough for you then you’re just a fucking fascist, and you’ll be regarded as such when the revolution you probably cream your jorts fantasizing about leading starts among the people your self glorifying behavior actually endanger.
Either it makes political sense for her to adopt her current position or it doesn’t. You can’t get voters on both sides of an issue but you can mark where you stand on it and have people vote accordingly.
Either it makes political sense for her to adopt her current position or it doesn’t. You can’t get voters on both sides of an issue but you can mark where you stand on it have people will vote accordingly.
That’s exactly why pivoting left on Gaza is critical if Harris wants to secure a Victory. Hundreds of thousands of likely voters all over swing states would be gained of Harris makes Israel a partisan issue
An April 2024 poll of likely voters across the U.S. found that 30% strongly supported withholding military funds to Israel until the attacks on Gaza stop; another 25% somewhat supported that conditional aid policy.
Below we asked all respondents what minimum combination of policies would secure (for non-Biden voters) or solidify (for Biden voters) a vote for Biden for President. A third or more voters in every state except Minnesota said a lasting ceasefire was among the minimum policies that would be needed to secure solidify their votes
Although voters are split on whether they approve or disapprove of Biden’s handling of the war, the vast majority (≥ ~75%) across all states still support an immediate and permanent ceasefire. Only a small minority of voters, from 11.2% to 16.1% in Minnesota and Pennsylvania, respectively, strongly approve of the President’s approach on Gaza. Of those, the vast majority in each state (≥64%) strongly support an immediate and permanent ceasefire. That is to say, a change in approach would not lose those votes, but staying on the current path risks doing so.
Many of the broad suggestions (“Ceasefire now, condition aid”) end up polling poorly when specifics are brought up (“Pressuring Israel, removing aid until conditions are met”). People are generally not informed on foreign policy issues and vote on ‘gut instinct’, which makes propaganda, such as that peddled by AIPAC, very potent.
She’s probably going to do her damndest to be “everything to everyone”, not say anything that would upset Israel supporters whilst still trying to tack a more dovish position than the current Israeli position of “total genocide”, as that’s the old politician’s trick on base-splitting issues.
I agree that Harris SHOULD pivot leftwards on the issue, both morally and because I see it as more likely to be beneficial to the campaign. But it’s not a clear-cut issue in terms of electoral calculus. Whatever position she takes, including the aforementioned hedging bets option, it’s going to be a gamble, and a big one.
This is the foundation for which all Western Judicial systems are built on: Justice Blackstone’s, “Better that 10 guilty persons escape than 1 innocent suffer.”
… And also the reason why these Prisoner Swaps with Russia make complete moral sense.
I’d also remind them that IDF is so incompetent that they’ve killed more aid workers in this conflict than any conflict previously… Even when there is directly coordination with IDF command as instructed. They’ve even killed their own hostages who had their hands raised, unarmed, and with a white flag.
The incompetence goes even further as of May of this year 278 IDF were killed by friendly fire. I can only imagine that friendly fire death list has increase since the May reporting. The IDF seems to be shooting anything that moves, friend or foe.
The IDF didn’t kill aid workers on accident. I refuse to believe that all, or most, are accidental with the number of absolute noncombatants (journos, aid workers, etc) that have been illegally killed (killing press workers and aid workers deliberately is a war crime).
Like others have said, it’s a feature, not a bug. They’re not incompetent - they know who they’re killing AND DON’T REALLY CARE.
I worry that showing the brutality of the IDF would actually encourage those voters to double down because they like what they see. Perhaps a better way is show the humanity of the Palestinian civilians.
I think PBS NewsHour has been doing a stellar job at this. They recently highlighted the father who lost his twins and his wife in a bombing. They then interviewed an American pediatrician who volunteered in Gaza. It certainly humanizes them.
I’d also remind them that IDF is so incompetent that they’ve killed more aid workers in this conflict than any conflict previously… Even when there is directly coordination with IDF command as instructed. They’ve even killed their own hostages who had their hands raised, unarmed, and with a white flag.
It’s astounding. I’d never really fallen for the “IDF MOST MORAL ARMY IN THE WORLD” shit ever since I became interested in politics as a teen, but I took it for granted that they were at least somewhat competent, if gruesome. Turns out, no, they’re both gruesomely immoral AND gruesomely incompetent.
Every time I see IDF officials talk I get big-time Kremlin rhetoric vibes. Now I’m not here defending Hamas in any capacity, but I just tire of IDF being elevated as “the good guys.” If they’re the good guys, then their standards should have been higher. Instead, just bomb a densely-populated building, killing scores of innocents and just say (without proof), “Oh well there was a high-value Hamas target so it’s all good.” They pulled the trigger and said that one target was more valuable than the dead children they knew they would kill.
Yeah, I despise Hamas and won’t mourn the passing of the shitheads, but Israel’s conduct in murdering Palestinian civilians has been nothing short of abominable.
And unlikely to end Hamas, for that matter.
This is what I don’t get. Even if we take them at their word that they’re finishing this for good, did they not learn a goddamned thing from 20 years of failed US military intervention attempting the same thing? Like… here I am just a Palestinian living in a slum exacerbated by blockades just trying to raise a family and unfortunately for me Hamas now controls the neighborhood I live in and I can’t do shit about it because they’re also being supported by outside nation-states no less. On the flip-side, it seems they’re the only marginal deterrent from IDF simply annexing and bulldozing my house… Then Hamas does something stupid; but then Israel claiming to be the good guys levels my apartment and kills my mother, wife, and kids…
Yeah, you bet I would radicalize after that.
So ultimately, the IDF is further destabilizing the region, not even addressing the root causes of extremism, and sowing further October 7ths down the road when all these orphans grow up.
Worst part is, US attempts at counter-insurgency were largely destroyed by outside factors (namely, the fact that we managed to piss off half the world, and the world was right in being pissed, in invading Iraq after having acquired near-infinite goodwill simply by suffering 9/11). We developed fairly effective COIN strategies - and what’s more, we offered experienced advisers in urban COIN specifically to Israel in the immediate aftermath of October 7th.
Our advisers left, frustrated, inside of a fucking week. Because the IDF had no interest in pursuing a counter-insurgency strategy. They were interested in pursuing their fucking old world blood feud.
Biden even warned Israel immediately following October 7th to not overreact and make the same mistake as we Americans lol.
It’s like being handed a fucking cheat sheet of what not to do and gleefully and knowingly doing everything listed and more. It’s insane.
Or it would be insane if one was operating on the premise that the Israeli government was interested in anything other than genocide as a final solution to the Palestine issue. What Israel has done is great for continuing to lock both sides into an insane war of annihilation that will not end well for either party.
The hard-right government there wants there to always be chaos so they can remain in power indefinitely.
They are absolutely NOT the good guys. Israel is having a smaller scale preview of what we’d see if we had the same scenario happen under a Trump presidency. We should try to curb their worst instincts, but you have to win the bloody election first to do it, and somehow account for the fact that the majority of Americans do not give a shit about Palestine.
The last poll I saw on the issue, is that ranking issues from most important to least, Palestine ranked around #9. Behind everything from Immigration, Economy, Women’s rights etc. And opposing them is one of the most well connected, well funded special interest groups that exist in the US today, in a country that loves money in politics so much that we legalized bribery.
It’s not an accident that some of the most vocal Pro-Palestinian voices in congress were primaried.
In that political climate, the best you can do is to do harm mitigation and make sure Republicans aren’t in the driver’s seat come 2025.
Yes, I’m being pragmatic. And I’d fucking hope you would be too, when millions of lives are at stake. I donated to Palestine for 20 years. Even back when I was living on a shoestring budget while I was in college. Do the feel good shit AFTER 11/20. I’ll be right there with you.
And for the love of god, vote.
Nobody gives a shit about nonvoters in this country. If you wanted to actually affect policy, a half a dozen congressmen that are willing to throw a wrench in things to get their way goes a LOT further than useless yammering about how you’re not going to vote because ‘both sides are bad’.
A couple of Blue Dogs managed to derail single payer healthcare. We could absolutely do the same for the Palestinian issue, if you could be bothered to get off your ass and vote.
Since being primarily concerned about the genocide is that unpopular of a position then why are you so concerned? If Harris made the decision that those voters are not as important to her then that’s that. You can’t have it both ways no matter how many self-righteous posts you make online.
Sounds like you don’t actually care about what happens and just want to feel self righteous and make some noise. So… the exact kind of person I had in mind making this.
You couldn’t argue on the merits, so you went with, “Haha, sure, I’m doing bad things, but it won’t matter so why do you care?”
Do you need me to spell it out for you to make it really obvious how dumb that argument is? Or were you just trying to be facetious?
Not voting for a candidate who is tacitly supporting a genocide on that basis is not “doing bad things” no matter how much bad faith spin you try to add. The candidate has to earn the vote and that applies to non-voters too. Some people care about certain issues enough to abstain from voting on that basis and others vote strategically because its not a team sport. You just want validation for your own voting decision by implying those abstaining from voting are directly or indirectly responsible for your candidate’s opponent winning which they are not. If Harris wins or loses it will be based on her and her party’s policy and campaign decisions.
Did typing that feel good? I mean, if you’re going to be playing ‘fuck around and find out’ with millions of lives, at least you should be getting something out of it, right?
If “She’s not Trump” isn’t all you need to know about how you should act in this election, I already know everything I need to know about how much of an actual ally you are as opposed to a willing collaborator who just doesn’t want the stink of being an out fascist.
The other side are fascists running on doing fascism.
That is the entire discussion.
If that is not enough for you then you’re just a fucking fascist, and you’ll be regarded as such when the revolution you probably cream your jorts fantasizing about leading starts among the people your self glorifying behavior actually endanger.
Because elections in this country are often decided on fractions of a percentage point.
Either it makes political sense for her to adopt her current position or it doesn’t. You can’t get voters on both sides of an issue but you can mark where you stand on it and have people vote accordingly.
What an astounding way to say absolutely nothing.
That’s exactly why pivoting left on Gaza is critical if Harris wants to secure a Victory. Hundreds of thousands of likely voters all over swing states would be gained of Harris makes Israel a partisan issue
Many of the broad suggestions (“Ceasefire now, condition aid”) end up polling poorly when specifics are brought up (“Pressuring Israel, removing aid until conditions are met”). People are generally not informed on foreign policy issues and vote on ‘gut instinct’, which makes propaganda, such as that peddled by AIPAC, very potent.
She’s probably going to do her damndest to be “everything to everyone”, not say anything that would upset Israel supporters whilst still trying to tack a more dovish position than the current Israeli position of “total genocide”, as that’s the old politician’s trick on base-splitting issues.
I agree that Harris SHOULD pivot leftwards on the issue, both morally and because I see it as more likely to be beneficial to the campaign. But it’s not a clear-cut issue in terms of electoral calculus. Whatever position she takes, including the aforementioned hedging bets option, it’s going to be a gamble, and a big one.
Same poll I believe, but some different looks at the data
Most moral people would let 9 guilty men walk to avoid harming a single innocent
Exactly!!
This is the foundation for which all Western Judicial systems are built on: Justice Blackstone’s, “Better that 10 guilty persons escape than 1 innocent suffer.”
… And also the reason why these Prisoner Swaps with Russia make complete moral sense.
If an army has to go out of their way to explain how peaceful they are…assume the opposite.
The incompetence goes even further as of May of this year 278 IDF were killed by friendly fire. I can only imagine that friendly fire death list has increase since the May reporting. The IDF seems to be shooting anything that moves, friend or foe.
The IDF didn’t kill aid workers on accident. I refuse to believe that all, or most, are accidental with the number of absolute noncombatants (journos, aid workers, etc) that have been illegally killed (killing press workers and aid workers deliberately is a war crime).
Like others have said, it’s a feature, not a bug. They’re not incompetent - they know who they’re killing AND DON’T REALLY CARE.