Personal background: I strongly feel just about everyone grows up and has something shitty about them. I know growing up I definitely thought and said some less-than-ideal jokes about women, minorities, etc. And while some of that was the proverbial ‘the times’, and some was growing up in a sheltered hyper Christian southern American conservative situation, I regret my actions and am happy I grew past that. And I do think people, especially younger, can grow past their shittiness, especially with the help of others, which was true for me too… When I got my first W2 job a superior I looked up to helped mold me into a better person by calling me out on things and modeling a better behavior.
Current situation: I’m now the supervisor position, have been for a decade (retail is a trap) and I’ve taken that to heart, calling out jokes that aren’t funny, etc. But recently we hired a new kid who acts really incel-ish, and who apparently has attached himself to me instantly. I’ve had moderate success so far just telling him his ‘lol women dumb’ jokes aren’t funny, and modeling how working with women is… normal? Anyways, I don’t wanna screw this up so do y’all have any suggestions for me to help keep him from going down an unfortunate path? I know at the end of the day I’m not responsible for others’ routes in life, but I feel we should all do our parts.
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This is such a lovely question. Thank you for being you.
I’d say that it would be important to talk positively about the women you know. If you have a female SO, for example, tell him how smart and curious and funny she is. Make a point to be open about the respect you feel for the contributions of your female co-workers. Tell him stories about when girlfriends were clever, and so on.
I don’t recommend talking about SOs. Incels may (appear to) be misogynistic but in the end, they turned out that way because they are (or feel) completely unwanted, for whatever reason they come up with, valid or not. Talking about your girlfriend or wife to them will probably remind them what they are missing, make them more envious and aggravate them more, despite claiming to hate women.
This is a good point.
I definitely do some level of this but I can step it up for sure. I’m the only guy in my position and while I have about five years of experience on any of them I respect them all and give them the same deference they do me, we’re one big team and all in the same position, nobody’s anybody’s boss in any way.
I don’t talk about my wife enough though, I could do that and hopefully at the same time counter the “boomer humor” comic sorts of jokes
I mean it’s a good thing he’s found you as a helpful mentor.
One online personality who I know is fairly good at explaining things in terms even people caught in right-wing pipelines can understand: Beau of the Fifth Column on YouTube.
Take this video for example on the topic of masculinity. Here Beau talks about the current trend of projecting masculinity and “being manly” through things like posture, limiting yourself to specific hobbies, talking certain ways and making yourself appear stoic to attract girls. He says it’s not unlike how women were trained to behave in the 19th century in order to court a man.
His style is patient, and he speaks in a way that can resonate with a lot of people, including those who are confused about certain progressive people movements, and even those that are settled deep in the conservative tar pit.
You’ll want to avoid sounding too preachy all the time, and be sure you recognize and empathize with anything he might be struggling with.
Huh, that’s an interesting route to take. I worry it’ll become too similar to the trap of “pink isn’t a girl’s color, it’s actually a boy’s color and they switched in the XX’th century and it’s the color of blood so it’s manly” that I’ve seen a lot of people fall into (kicking myself because I was one of them). It’s not a bad step to be in, in that it helps normalize normally “feminine” actions/dress/etc. as things men can wear, but it’s also just… still gendered unnecessarily?
To be clear, I haven’t watched it yet and still intend to, I just worry about that from your description of it.
Yeah one of the big things that helped me snap out was male role models teaching me that all of that masculinity crap doesn’t matter. The BEST phrase I heard was when someone said something stupid like “real men don’t like Taylor Swift” my mentor responded “Real men don’t care”. That stuck with me.
Having a man I look up to tell me that real men do whatever they like and don’t let others dictate what they can or can’t so succinctly was just a game changer. No one had worded it like that to me. Real men don’t care.
real men do whatever they like and don’t let others dictate what they can or can’t
this might not be a good message to deliver to a member of a group so prolific in the mass-shooting community that they have a wikipedia article dedicated to that fact
Out of context there, he was just so casual and chill about it. It was more “they don’t care if other people are judging them” and they shouldn’t, no one should. Of course the subtext applies that “as long as you aren’t hurting anyone else”.
i would raise a very similar point about understanding nuance
I try to avoid directly saying the phrase “toxic masculinity” because some have incorrect preconceived notions about what that means, and it often invites a tangent into that side discussion, but I like to still reinforce the core idea there: that society expects men to be a certain way, including by enforcing norms of telling men what they’re not allowed to do or be. Gatekeeping what “real men” are and what manhood means is itself toxic, and has done lots of harm to men. And by explaining these concepts to men, and focusing the discussion on how these outdated gender norms are harmful and dangerous to men can help open up the dialogue about how gender norms are also harmful to women, too. And about how men who have been forcing themselves to fit a particular vision of manhood are also harmful to those around them (regardless of gender), as it affects their relationships with others, and their ability to regulate emotions.
oh for sure, you can’t tell them they’re being toxic, they’ll take that as a badge of pride. Personally that’s probably why that statement hit me so hard, it wasn’t anything that I could latch onto to say “Well that’s just some feminist idea” or some other BS, it was just a man that I looked up to, so casual, just brushing it off. He didn’t even care about it. It just blew my entire worldview up. and not in the “Whatever man fuck society way” but in a “eh they can judge if they want, I don’t care”.
Yeah that’s the kind of thing Beau is good at. I didn’t want to spoil too much of the video and kept the summary to two sentences, but that’s one of the points where Beau challenges the viewer with something unexpected, that gets them to open their mind up and think a little, even if for just a moment.
Just watched that Beau’s video, and it’s pretty good, in a non-preachy way. He only puts up some generic examples of what women were sold on in the 18th century, and how men are being sold on the same kind of stuff in the 21st century, to end with the real truth: anyone telling you how to be a man/woman, is just trying to sell you stuff. Plus a call to think by yourself.
pink isn’t a girl’s color, it’s actually a boy’s color
Related to that, I like the history of high heels: from something strictly practical, to a gender-neutral status symbol of non-working classes, to a patriarchal monarchy status symbol, back to a general status symbol with an extra twist of marking women as unable to do any work, to a sexualizing split into an extremely unpractical version for women and a practical looking version for men, with a late addition of a much more practical version for women while still retaining some of the sexualization… all the time being bad for the wearer’s health, with much healthier modern alternatives for the strictly practical uses.
another good one is knowing better on youtube. His videos are more focused on history stuff, but they sometimes cover a wide range of topics and mostly focus on debunking commonly held beliefs, and expanding on topics that many of us only touched on briefly during school (for example his video on Pearl Harbor is really deep). His videos are really long, but he also really goes in depth into stuff and cites a shitload of really interesting sources to boot.
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Like others have said, not only is it good to model that his behavior is unacceptable, I think it’s better to try to teach him that not only can he act better, teach him how rewarding it is for him to act better. It’s so much of a nicer feeling to treat others as they’d like to be treated, instead of being mean and bitter about it all.
I think being clear that the behavior is wrong is good. I think framing it as a “you’re better than that” is better than just telling them it is unacceptable though. It helps to paint other people they hear that shit from as being pathetic and not who they should model their behavior after. Ok not sure how to do that in a practical sense but everytime someone has criticized my behavior with disappointment rather than anger it has left a stronger impact I think.
But I’ve never done this so I don’t know what’s best. Bare minimum is definitely not letting them get away with it. Make your disdain known. Don’t just distance yourself.
The disappointment approach is my jam! It’s what helped me turn things around, and it’s what has worked so far with this kid. I’m just calling it out here because this was way better worded than mine, and needs the ups so if anybody else is looking for ideas they know this one is great!
You ultimately aren’t responsible for this person’s behavior, but I understand wanting to help them. Calling him out for bad behavior is definitely a good way to go, try not to be harsh though. Maybe push him to try and become friends with a female coworker. If they’re friends with a girl they aren’t necessarily sexually attracted to, it’s a great way to teach him to view girls as regular people.
Maybe push him to try and become friends with a female coworker.
Please ask her before you use her to teach a lesson.
Encouraging them to seek out a female friend isn’t using the seeked out person as a lesson. What an weird way to interpret that.
It sounds like you’ve never had the experience of being the woman used as a lesson, and I’m really glad for you. I’m sorry you think my lived experience is weird! Blessed be.
That’s awesome, but it’s literally a “hey, you should go to talk her”
I feel this comment is brushing off the important point the commentator above is making. I understand that you wanted to clarify or defend your original statement. But if you don’t respond appropriately to what the person you’re talking to has said, you’re not really having a conversation. Instead you’re just talking at someone.
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would you want to have an extended conversation with some weird incel?
obviously not
so would you want somebody pointing you out to that incel as a great person to have an extended conversation with?
again, obviously not
You gotta admit, you did specify female coworker. You sound well intentioned but I cant say your plan is not without its issues
You should really have the decency to contemplate why a woman would not want that before you tell her she’s wrong for not wanting it.
Don’t know why you think I didn’t. I work with people and have a lot of girl friends. I know very well how they think and empathize well. I’m responding to a random username who’s likely perpetually online so I don’t exactly value their opinion.
You also have no idea who I am or my experiences before you assume I’m wrong, just like you say I am doing to them.
All I know about you is this conversation, and your response here sounds a lot like “I’m not sexist, I have women friends”.
Wow now I’m apparently sexist for disagreeing with you. Maybe you should have the decency to contemplate why anyone claiming to be female online must be automatically right. That’s pretty sexist to tie truth to gender. You know literally nothing about me, so don’t draw any conclusions.
Maybe you should have the decency to contemplate why anyone claiming to be female online must be automatically right. That’s pretty sexist to tie truth to gender. You know literally nothing about me, so don’t draw any conclusions.
what the fuck are you talking about
you said a dumb thing online and people are calling you out on it
there’s nothing more to it than that
A long time ago, I tried giving similar advice to someone on reddit I saw had a similar vibe I felt I probably had some version of back in my 17 - 22 age range period. I think telling someone who feels hopeless about their own chances in relationship success stories where you personally can relate are the best way to pull someone out of an otherwise toxic spiral they often get stuck in.
Not the typical “be yourself” parental type advice, but like “I also felt” and “well until I” type of personal experience perspective. Use your own genuine growth and self-reflection as a cornerstone of how you talk to them. If you want to help, you need to talk to them in a way that makes them feel like they’re not the only person in the world who is experiencing or who has experienced the sort of despair they have.
And - as someone else pointed out - it isn’t your responsibility. And ultimately, the person has to themselves want things to be better. If they’ve decided it’s hopeless, there’s nothing anyone but themselves will be able to do… but it is noble to try.
At one point in my life, I had decided I would stop feeling hopeless after being rejected by those who I had fallen for, and instead work on myself. As a result, I ended up getting into really great shape, going on dates, and meeting lots of really wonderful people and growing as a person - ultimately finding someone who I eventually married and had a family with. I realized far after the fact that I must have been someone miserable to be around in at least some way - due to the way I was raised (also religious Southern sheltered family), and the poor socialization skills I had lacked as a result.
However, for some folks, being themselves is the exact opposite thing they should be doing if they want to get out of that rut. Some people really do just need to change who they are.
I think it helps when guys can grow comfortable and vulnerable enough to be real with each other. Do you think you’re there yet? If not, it could come off as holier than thou. Take it at an easy pace. If you might remember from your Christian roots, certain—if not all—denominations have a one-on-one discipleship/mentorship thing where you walk through life together. This goes beyond your work relationship, so I don’t know how appropriate it is at work. If anything, it doesn’t even need to be as deep. I experienced some of it in college, both in Christian and non-Christian settings. One of the things I currently respect most about people is the ability to own up for one’s mistakes. And I see you’ve done that in your own life. If you make any mistakes in front of him, I believe it takes strength and humility to acknowledge it, and to correct yourself (whether immediately or later).
Not only model the correct behavior, but also the root of that behavior. What drives you to be that strong, kind person? Why treat and respect others as equals? Why be kind?
Sorry I don’t have any concrete advice. Just things to think about.
I appreciate you, how you’ve changed, and your desire to make a better life and world for those around you.
Hey, sounds like you’re doing a good job already! One thing I want to add is to establish a boundary for the three different relationships you’ll have with your coworker - mentor, personal, and working. You don’t necessarily need to be explicit with him about it, but you should have a pretty clear idea where the lines are for yourself. This is so that you can be aware of when you need to be a mentor, when you should be a boss, or when you should just be another human. Of course those boundaries will change over time, so it’s good to re-evaluate every once in a while.
It’s also good to remember that at the end of the day, you can’t actually change how your coworker behaves - it is up to him to make the choice to not say shitty things, be kind, and do good.
I certainly wouldn’t ask an internet forum. Any answer other than advising you to seek the help of a professional is the wrong one.
This. Call 1-800-SAVE-INCEL for a professional incel saver.
What professional can you call to help a coworker from being a shit person???
I’m literally sending an email to help@saveincels.org as I type this, while calling the incel hotline, and writing a letter to The Incel Whisperer at 42069 Incel Therapy Rd.
How so?
I have an gaming buddy that is waaaaaaaaay down the conspiracy rabbit hole, I wish I had the energy and position to help him. Another friend of mine that is closer to him says he’s gone, she’s been trying for years to talk him out of it. He has a constant stream of right wing insanity on in the background of his house.
You’re doing a wonderful thing for this young man
This might help too: https://youtu.be/uAmZiyhZlpw
Ima just keep it real and tell you that you arent responsible for molding people to be in a way you find more pleasant. If you just act in a way that this guy finds attractive to emulate then he will do that. Otherwise you are essentially asking us “how do i program this guy to be more like me”.
I think OP is pretty clearly asking for ways to help him, not to “mold” him. Having an incel coworker is a massive pain from my experience so it helps to be able to help them to not be that guy
Haha, I’m no saint, I’d like him to be better than that!
But more seriously, I agree I’m not responsible for others’ routes in life, I said so at the end of my post. However, there are certain behaviors that society in general tends to disapprove of, and incel behavior is one of them. If I can help him move away from that path with my actions, I’d say that’s worth doing. No?
This is the same logic that mormons use when they ring my doorbell 2 times a day for the last 4 years. You need to either let him do his thing and find you aa a good mentor or keep it pushing and let him do his thing. All as long as it doesnt get him into trouble. If he gets himself into trouble thats when you step in; if he seeks your advice then give him your wisdom. Otherwise, leave your subordinate alone.
This is the same logic
no it isn’t
OP’s case seems less about converting anyone, and more about helping a guy get the hang of the rules acceptable at his workplace.
PS: If Mormons pester you, ask them to show you the original from which their book got translated. I did once, on accident, before knowing the full story… the reaction was priceless (and sepulcral silence fell onto the land).
This is 100% the case, OP is saying some things are correct for society and other is not. OP is trying to mold this kid there is no question here.
Perhaps there was some confusion or miscommunication here. I’m not asking to convert him to my religion, make him “more liberal”, get him to be a mini-me, make my work life “easier” by making him more “standable” or anything like that. I am personally able to work just fine with the kid as it is, and have no professional issues with them.
I do not feel I have any sort of agenda I’m pushing, I just see them exhibiting misogynistic behaviors and drifting towards a subgroup that’s known for mass shootings, and I think I can in any way help prevent him from going that route.
There is a difference between good and bad things
Crazy, I know
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