Why are conservatives so weird when it comes to women playing sports? Like why do they care about their genitals?
Maybe we need to start calling them perverts.
They are so perverted.
Lots of weirdos and perverts out there. Bring a taser just in case.
Easy way to get arrested by one of said weirdos/perverts. Self-defense isn’t particularly straightforward if you aren’t straight and white.
Which is unfair, and should be changed. I’m fortunate that getting arrested would be a clearly better choice than being assaulted.
Honestly, most conservatives are just directing their rage toward whatever conservative politicians and talking heads tell them to direct it at. Conservatism lives and thrives on hate, requiring in-groups and out-groups that must be pitted against one another. The new fad is to care about a person’s genitals.
You see, conservatives don’t believe in gender equality, so someone who isn’t a cis woman will always perform better than cis women, because they believe that women are inherently weak and men are inherently strong, failing to believe that any other form of gender identity even exists.
Except here’s the thing; I’m pretty sure I’ve read this athlete has a vagina, and has had one all of her life. They just don’t understand sex, and how complex it can be.
deleted by creator
Trans women were allowed in the Olympics for 20 years and haven’t won a single gold medal. The whole debate is just some made up unscientific garble by bigots.
Imane is literally a cis-gender woman and there’s no evidence that she is intersex, trans, or anything that indicates non-normative chromosome or hormone production.
It is completely fair for her to compete and it’s just right wing people who are trying to claim and decide that she’s not womanly enough to be considered a woman.
There are literally no trans people competing in the Olympics this year and only two non-binary competitors. This is all being posed as if the entirety of the Olympics is being skewed by trans competitors when there aren’t any and this controversy is just being invented for the sake of affirming control over women.
Removed by mod
Sex isn’t a binary.
Why are conservatives so weird when it comes to
women playing sportsgestures broadly?Agreed, conservatives are weirdos.
Don’t know if it’s being underreported, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it is … it seems the instigator is regretting the kindling of transphobia paranoia they ignited.
She wasn’t the instigator. People just said what they wanted to say. Her unsportsmanlike conduct was just the gap needed to wedge in some hate.
She definitely knew what she was doing. Carini is a policewoman with connections to the Italian alt right. She was paid 50k after the match by the IBA, the ones that disqualified Khelif in 2023 after winning the gold.
Why does this comment smell like a conspiracy theory? Will read article and delete if this is referenced.
Edit: did not see anything about a payoff there. Got a link showing Russian involvement/payment by chance?
Double edit for rule. Didn’t want to change username. He/him
There you have
Ty, definitely adds good context to the political rat behaviour. Looks like the Italian Boxing Federation won’t accept the offer, but that doesn’t say anything about Carini or her coach. https://apnews.com/article/olympics-2024-boxing-italy-c2fc28a02c220e507152f18a44d7dbef
Double edit for rule. Didn’t want to change username. He/him
thatll work, thanks!
IBA is Gazprom.
new rule : https://lemmy.ml/post/18758874
Hmmm this seems annoying for you! Really good example of the value of user flairs
So long as this is a public community it feels like a perennial problem. Though private communities aren’t here yet, it seems you and the mods here want this to be a relatively public community. So community specific user flairs seem like the only workable solution (where there could be a default “use handle” flair or something or a requirement for first time posters to select a flair).
Don’t know if there’s an issue for it or others pushing for it, but this situation seems like an idea case for its value.
I messaged dessalines about it at some point I think.
Ah right. Makes sense. Sorry for jumping in then if that was annoying/repetitive.
no problem
Probably 90% or even more of the Italian athletes that participate in the Olympics (of anyway compete at higher level in minor sports) are either part of police, carabinieri, “fiamme gialle” (Guardia di finanza) or army. This is just the way it is, since those corps have sport teams which pay a salary.
It is basically welfare, since those people don’t usually have any of the regular duties that policemen etc. have.
Furthermore, I am not even sure what is “Italian alt right”, but anyway I searched in Italian and I couldn’t find a single source that “links” her to any particular political party. Can you provide anything to support your claim?
At the moment it looks like you are spreading misinformation to create hatred towards a single person, not cool.
I don’t think the future actions of the Hungarian can be used as arguments for the actions of Carini which happened before.
Either way, I read that interview and it’s very similar to what it came out right after the fight: she was concerned about the match (had a small crisis), but didn’t probably premeditate it. She said herself she didn’t and that she entered the ring to fight. She might be lying of course, but we will never know and we can only speculate one way or another.
Either way, as sus as it can be, the fact that she is in Police is completely irrelevant, she didn’t accept IBA money and I couldn’t find links with alt-right (or anybody else), which means all 3 sentences of the comment I was answering to are either false or misleading.
Personally, I think she showed bad sportsmanship, but what I observed here was the exact mirror of what conservatives are doing to the Algerian athlete: try to channel hatred with made-up facts, and I personally disapprove it.
That said, her sincere apology has gone a long way to calm the moderates. It’s only bigots that don’t care about anything other than having a target that are still pushing this.
And they would do that regardless of any outcome with the flimsiest of excuses.
new rule : https://lemmy.ml/post/18758874
Would a 99% Muslim country like Algeria really allow a trans person to represent it at the Olympics? I highly doubt it.
Honestly, I find the whole things reeks of ignorance. I don’t expect everyone to know everything, but I thought Algeria is a well known enough country; and I am surprised that the fact Imane came from there did not clue in everyone as to why she can’t be a transwoman! I am in a discussions group and one person brought up the controversy in the chat. The guy is a boomer and probably fell easily to fake news from social media. I gave the simple response that she’s from Algeria to clue him in, but others had to explain several times why it is fake news that Imane is supposedly a transwoman!
As I grow older, I realise that people can’t know what you know and vice versa. Which is completely fine; but on the one side it shows how each of us are in our own bubble which can have detrimental effects, not just for our own personal growth, but also to the wider society.
I mean Iran recognizes trans women as women and trans men as men. Treats both like shit and is wildly homophobic but it does nominally recognize binary trans people post transition (mid transition is a different story). And Casablanca was at one time a bottom surgery hotspot to a point that a trans person “going to Casablanca/morocco” had an understood reason akin to Thailand today
Removed by mod
How are you able to believe that. Is there some sort of concrete evidence that everyone else is missing or is it a gut feeling justification?
The international boxing association Russian president claimed that the DNA results showed two athletes had xy chromosomes but never published the results. That claim only came after Imane, an Algerian boxer, defeated the Russian boxer Azalia, and the claim was used to disqualify Imane’s victory.
Of all the conspiracy theories, isn’t it more reasonable that the Russian president wanted to protect the Russian boxer and made up a reason to DQ Imane to ensure that his home country wasn’t stained by a loss?
Sabine Hossenfelder did a video on trans women in sports, and despite her checkered history of non-physics related topics, she raised some good points. ( on YouTube )
Hossenfelder she points out, whether we’re looking at college sports, pro sports or the Olympics, we’re less seeking fair competitions as we are interesting ones. (As she notes, it’s not fair that Usain Bolt got long legs and she didn’t), as a result we sometimes separate contestants into classes. Boxing, for instance, is separated not just by sex, but by three weight classes, because otherwise, the 120kg mountain of pure muscle punches all the featherweights over the ropes.
What we’re looking for when matchmaking is the same that we are when we match-make for gaming competitions, which is to say near-peers where the outcome of a contest is closely undecided, where we are unable to guess with much accuracy who would win until after the outcome. And in today’s athletic classes we’re able to categorize trans women with other athletic women who are near-peers and get exciting contests where the outcome is unpredictable.
Hossenfelder suggests all this is going to change once it becomes routine to genetically engineer our offspring. But that will be another era.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=r6Kau7bO3Fw
I think there’s another one of these videos too. Don’t trust anything she says outside of physics. She’s a physicist, but she confidently speaks on issues she has no knowledge on. She’s a bad educational YouTube because she lies and pretends like she has knowledge she doesn’t have.
This YouTube also has a great video about Sabine’s pro-capitalism video where she is varifiably wrong about many things but just doesn’t care. She’s not reliable, except maybe within her field… possibly.
Even within the field of physics, I find her a little questionable. She stated once that she thinks falsifiability is overrated. That just flys in the face of testability and verification, which opens up room for any untestable theory or hypothesis to take root.
Sorry, but after her Trans care Video I don’t have a single ounce of respect left for her. Surely you can find better people to quote here?
100%. She should really stick to physics.
I get it, and I saw the trans-care vid and was repulsed by it as well. (Her take on capitalism sucks as well.) But she did make analyses of sports that I’ve not heard elsewhere, so even if she’s not a reliable authority she can sometimes offer sound logic.
And yes, no-one else breaks down how we sort sporting matches or raises the question of fairness, because it’s impossible to make sports fair since genetics can be a bigger advantage than sex (or, for that matter, weight) since it informs not just the capacity for training discipline, but responsiveness to training and peak levels.
It could be that some of us really don’t get sports. As a kid, I was criticized for being small (I gained my full height and strength when I was well out of High School and studying computer science) and yet I was harshly criticized for not being as burly as my classmates in sports. (And could get no sympathy when I was bullied by bigger kids as well.) So I don’t get why we celebrate athletics competitively, when we should be striving for a personal best.
And as Hossenfelder points out, those who like sports don’t want a fair match, but an interesting one. Hence if an ogre with a genetic throwback is able to one-punch every other heavyweight contender, that’s not exciting. What’s exciting is if two rivals who are nearly evenly matched, are punching it out for the crown.
And in that regard, Imane Khelif and Lin Yu‑ting are established contender their boxing league. Sometimes they win against other contenders, sometimes they lose, and so the ambiguous outcome of the next match is what is important. I’d think if a non-binary person with male sexual characteristics were fighting in the league and wasn’t showing clear advantages, they should be allowed in the league, and if someone completely outperforms everyone else in the league, then their gender doesn’t matter, they need a different league.
(This has become an issue in some high school wrestling leagues, since sometimes a girl wants to wrestle, and is a strong contender, but other high-schools get wary and misogynistic and no-one wants to wrestle her – possibly for fear of the stigma of getting beaten by a girl.)
That said, a lot of people are opining about this who really shouldn’t be given authority, so I’d suggest challenge every take critically, whether it’s coming from Hossenfelder or not. Especially mine.
So we’re past the strawmans and they are just going full Don Quixote now?
Honestly we might just need a different metric than gender to separate sports. Something like testosterone level or something, similar to weight classes. Because no matter how you look at it, this isn’t really fair for their opponents, regardless of gender. But then again, there’s also other body differences that might not have anything to do with current testosterone level, so I don’t know.
Testosterone is complicated. Women athletes have higher than average testosterone. Some have higher than athletes who are men! Also T-levels don’t accurately correlate to performance, so there’s a factor of hormonal responsiveness as well.
But yeah, boxing also has weight classes, so we already know that sometimes we have to segregate leagues in order to keep contests among near peers and exciting.
Here’s an interesting article about that: https://daily.jstor.org/gender-incommensurability-in-sports/
The issue is that these athletes are already exceptional. If I, a 6’ tall man, got into the ring with any of these women I’d get my ass handed to me. I’m not asking them to make a division that I could win though.
I don’t know what the best solution is, but there should be an open “Premier league” that anyone can compete in. If we decide to have other leagues then that gets complicated. Should we have one for class differences, hormone levels, mental capacity, or all other conditions? I’m unsure. The playing field can never be leveled though.
For sure, I have no clue how all that works but there has got to be a better way to do it than just separating by genders.
The “problem” is that gender is a spectrum and there doesn’t exist any real metric to discern or categorize people into a social binary. Honestly, I’m surprised this topic is even popping up again when I thought this was hashed out several years and Olympics ago when right wingers were bringing this up back then. Trying to categorize and disqualify women by testosterone content just doesn’t work. This is all ultimately a method of trying to police and control women’s bodies.
In a similar vein, why aren’t men looked at in the same manner. Why not say that any particular man either has too much estrogen and is either too womanly or not manly enough to qualify or compete. It’s because these people aren’t looking for fairness, safety, or any other dog whistle they might cry about. It’s all just about controlling women.
I don’t want to disqualify anyone, I want them to compete with people at their level. It has nothing to do with women, this should be done to men too, and everyone else.
Fair for her opponent? The punch that ended the fight didn’t knock out her opponent nor did it break her nose nor even give her a nose bleed. And suddenly all the rules need to be changed? Trying to get that granulated opens a whole new can of worms. What about arm length and height? Blood sugar levels? Angle of shoulders and hips? By this logic Shaquille O’Neal had a unfair competitive advantage on everyone.
I didn’t say her in particular, I didn’t even watch that fight. But as the world transitions to treating the genders as no longer binary, doesn’t it make sense to change the binary gender sports rules as well?
The governing body for whatever sport and region already making those rules. The Olympics already has rules in place for trans athletes. So what else needs to be done? This whole panic over this is way overblown and is a distraction that negatively impacts women and trans athletes.
I think there are already limits to T levels? I don’t follow sports closely though.
there’s also other body differences that might not have anything to do with current testosterone level
Like what? Bone density changes with hrt, that’s the only example I see people use.
I’m not saying this would happen, because it’d have a lot of side effects, but I could see a situation like how wrestlers try to drop as much water weight and everything else before weighing in, people drop as much testosterone before measurement. Again, this is purely a hypothetical and not a criticism of anything in our world today, just something I could imagine. Sex/gender is complicated, but hormone levels are also probably also not ideal measurements because it could lead to issues like the above, which I’m sure isn’t healthy. I really don’t know what the right solution is, but there’s clearly no perfect one.
I think because you can have a normal T-level currently but have a more “manly” body because of past T-level. How would they test it in these scenarios, I do not know.
Removed by mod
I don’t know exactly if the anatomy of trans women is similar to that of non-trans women. I’m ignorant about this. However, if there are equal conditions, it can happen in trances. If there are no equal conditions, I think it can be opened to a separate category. Why shouldn’t there be an extra category of trans women or trans men next to men and women?
Why shouldn’t there be an extra category of trans women or trans men next to men and women?
Because trans women are women, and trans men are men. Why shouldn’t there be a category for women with pcos?
Current science actually shows that trans women perform worse than cis women in several categories and identical in others. Which correlates with the fact that in the 20 years that trans women have been allowed to compete in the olympics, not a single one has made it there. It was a small study and needs to be expanded upon, but is still better evidence than what any of the reactionary bans have.
Here’s a link to an article that includes a link to the actual study https://www.outsports.com/2024/4/12/24091267/transgender-athletes-study-research-science-sports-governing-bodies/
Why. Just reduce it to a single category.
Hell yeah, men VS women, let’s go!
Removed by mod
