tectonic planet are rare
Time.
Timeline wise, we could be at the beginning of when other species are becoming sentient. Or we could have missed them by a billion years. The gap to get in contact is so massive that the odds are stacked against it ever happening.
Distance and time. No one seems to have a clue how far a light year is … I mean maybe ur finding someone in ur own galaxy over a big enough timeline but sorry 2000 light years to the nearest galaxy? Not a chance.
Yep, relativity is a bitch. Even if we could do the speed of light, our time here would pass so quickly that by the time we reached some place that had life, ours might have stopped existing.
And yes, I know a light year is not a measure of time, but distance, but it still takes time.
This is the answer,
100 different civilizations could have happened in our galaxy in the last 1 million years with only a few centuries of them emitting detectable signals.
And it could be worse, it could be 10 civilizations in the last 1 billion years.
Perhaps we’re just not as interesting as we think. Maybe aliens don’t want to contact us for the same reason I don’t want to contact kids playing in the park: I’m simply uninterested in whatever they’re doing.
Lol makes me imagine that the alien species have a law against approaching humans or be charged with pedophilia.
Nah, they just have a bunch of myths about the evil homo sapiens abducting their alien babies.
It is homo phobia.
Bravo.
Oh no! Makes all that probing worse.
“They’re made out of meat.”
https://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/thinkingMeat.html
It’s also likely that an alien species capable of interstellar travel doesn’t want anything we have. Our resources aren’t anything special, they have no need for slave labor and we don’t produce anything of interest to them. It’s a long drive. Why burn the gas and waste the time?
Knowledge.
Why are there scientists here on Earth studying the most boring subjects imaginable to anyone but them? Why does every tiny organism have a small, but dedicated group of scientists studying it at some point?
We must know - we will know! is a quote which represents humanity well. A factually wrong quote since we will not know everything but, an objective nonetheless. Why should other species believe different?
It’s not so much that we’re boring, it’s that we’re so far away and not trivial to send mass and energy towards.
I think that a sufficiently advanced civilization that could come over for a visit wouldn’t want to.
I also think a sufficiently advanced civilization with the curiosity and desire to learn about us could do so via probes and we’d never know they visited us.
Surely if intelligent life is rare, they’re all of interest
My point exactly.
But … but … I’m so interesting…
I remember a comedian making a joke about this. It’s like getting a signal from your dog to come out to the back yard.
Blipblop: “Those creatures on that planet are perplexing. Constantly at war, decimating their natural resources, consuming everything in their paths. Like a cancer overtaking an organism. Should we contact them?”
Morklorp: “Are you fucking crazy?”
Have you read the one about the talking meat?
I’d seen this before, but was happy to reread it for gems like this:
“You know how when you slap or flap meat it makes a noise? They talk by flapping their meat at each other. They can even sing by squirting air through their meat.”
Such a beautiful description of the human voice.
They are also loud and annoying!
And the smell….
I like how you assume another civilization would be any more rational.
I sure did, which is a pretty typical assumption when people think about beings from a different planet.
No, it really isn’t.
Why the clickbait? Just put why in the title
It’s the title of the article. Should the OP just put whatever they want for a title?
Yes, appended in square brackets, to indicate that it is not part of the original text.
This is a service I would appreciate. Or at least put it in the description.
Yes, modern article titles are designed to get you to click it so they make money off advertising to you
The whole article is the why. Not just a single headline-appropriate bullet point.
What, it wasn’t enough to just gesture meaningfully at the state of the entire godamn planet when looking for reasons why aliens might want to avoid us?
I was going to say this. To those species who are capable of interplanetary colonization, we look like savage war goblins who can only negotiate transaction-based societies and are compelled by number-go-uo at the expense of letting children starve.
deleted by creator
So if they are right, the Earth is incredibly rare and would be a great find for space faring civilizations. They also had plenty of time to pass by and find this incredibly rare life bearing sphere. But they didn’t. You can flip things how ever you want, the question remains - why haven’t we seen anyone?
It’s simple. We’re the first intelligent life in the galaxy. There is nobody else yet in our galaxy.
Also, probably nobody capable of traveling the stars wants to settle a planet. Once you figure out how to make huge spaceships (which you’ll need to travel interstellar space) you’ve essentially learned how to make cities in space. Our solar system would support a lot of people if we just used the resources available for space habitats, and by “lot” I mean in the quadrillions. And it turns out that all you need to support that population is a star to provide energy, and some planets to source materials from.
So with that in mind, why bother finding another habitable planet?
The thing is, out of a population of trillions (or even quadrillions as you say), you only need a few thousand to travel to the stars to colonize another planet. With how large the population is, that is bound to happen. Just like there were bound to be pioneers travelling to the new world to settle it, despite how dangerous the journey was. And how there will be pioneers to settle the moon or mars or further out.
And a civilization like that would absolutely send stuff to other star systems, if only for science, so most of the research for the journey would already be done. And this is assuming that a civilization wouldn’t want ever greater quantities of resources for ever greater projects, or access to other star systems for reasons we cannot fathom today (maybe neutron stars or black holes have some incredibly tempting uses? Or maybe there’s some useful resources out in the galaxy that we have yet to discover?)
Basically, a successful civilization like that is bound to spread out, it’s difficult to see scenarios where a successful civilization would be so homogenous in thought as for that to not happen. Amd then it’s before we even get to sending AI probes to “colonize” space and gather data.
Also, probably nobody capable of traveling the stars wants to settle a planet. Once you figure out how to make huge spaceships (which you’ll need to travel interstellar space) you’ve essentially learned how to make cities in space.
I don’t think it is a valid point. Yeah, if we can build a ship that take us to Alpha Centauri it would lool like a small city, but that does not mean that it can last forever and the traveller would never need to settle on a planet. And looking what the humans did in the past, it seems logic that while a part would want to continue to explore, another part would want to settle on a planet.
Our solar system would support a lot of people if we just used the resources available for space habitats, and by “lot” I mean in the quadrillions. And it turns out that all you need to support that population is a star to provide energy, and some planets to source materials from.
So with that in mind, why bother finding another habitable planet?
Because it is habitable and can be used as a transit point, advanced outpost, refuelling base or any other use you can do of an habitable planet where to do things you have not to fight even with the environment (tourism for example).
Or there are plenty of societies at least as advanced as we are, but we can’t find each other because space is big and our stars tend to drown out our own puny EM emissions.
Yeah agreed, there’s no way we’re picking up alien radio broadcasts, not over the noise produced by a star.
On the other hand, if a civilization were creating a Dyson sphere, or other large constructions, we’d be able to see those unusual elements in the light spectrum coming off the star. So it is conspicuous that we haven’t seen anything like that.
There’s a fair question of “would it ever be practical to do such large constructs”. As far as energy capture, between advances in energy efficiency and solar capture, one could imagine having energy beyond our greatest ambitions with no or minimal space based solar energy collection. The resources involved to construct such a thing would involve a mass equivalent to an entire planet to make a super thin shell, and we’d want to be pickier than just any old matter.
Similar to people dreaming of Mars colonization as a workaround for climate change. Anything we could do to make Mars livable would be even harder than engineering Earth’s climate. Now maybe population growth may demand more area one day, or non replacement birth rates become so normal that population just starts shrinking.
There is the possibility that no one can “win” against the physics, and things didn’t get much more advanced in space for any species than they are today for us. If that’s the case, then we shouldn’t be surprised that other hypothetical civilisations cannot be found.
Suhweeet! We can be the Old Ones, Chutulu flatghn la!
They actually haven’t had much time to pass by. Earths only been around for 4.6 billion years, a couple hundred million of that was spent being a cooling ball of magma. Space is fucking huge and the universe is still very young. It’s very likely we are on the early end of the development of life in the universe. A lot of things had to happen before our complex life could evolve.
As you said, after the formation of Earth, it took only a few hundred milion years for life to develop. That is incredibly short, almost instanteneously as soon as conditions for life were met, life formed. Our galaxy, the Milky Way, formed almost as soon as galaxies could form. So here we have a situation where a inteligent civilization could have formed anywhere in our galaxy 13 bil years ago or at any point in time after that. Chance is, if they had, by now they would have conquered the whole galaxy. Absence of any sign of inteligent life can be wxplained by the Great Filter. It could be any of the following: 1) interstellar travel is never feasible for any civ, no matter how advanced, 2) Earth-like planets are so rare, that we are probably the only inteligent civ in our galaxy, 3) Earth-like planets are not that rare, but inteligent civs tend to destroy themselves before they manage to spread out to other planets… We don’t know what the Great Filter is, but it must be pretty destructive for a civ. I just want to point out the fact that the Great Filter is probably still ahead of us and that we shouldn’t take our existence for granted. We need to meticulously examine and neutralize any possible threats to human civilization. This is not fearmongering. It’s just common sense, after you take all the facts into account that I laid out.
Actually life needs complex elements that only form in neutron star collisions(kilonovas) It could have been that the universe needed to be a couple billion years old before the elements that could create complex life actually came into existence. Everything else is pretty accurate, and I do think interstellar travel will end up being impossible, even terraforming other planets seems like it’s a couple thousand years away.
As far as earth-like planets being rare, even if they are only 1 in 10,000 there would likely still be tens of millions in our galaxy alone.
I think 1 in 10k is way too common still. Somewhere between 1 in a billion to one in a trillion is more reasonable.
We don’t know what the Great Filter is, but it must be pretty destructive for a civ. I just want to point out the fact that the Great Filter is probably still ahead of us and that we shouldn’t take our existence for granted.
If there is a great filter…
I mean, as you said, we’re pretty early to the scene. Why can’t we be the first in this galaxy? Perhaps planets like earth aren’t rare over the lifetime of a galaxy, but they are rare in these early years of a galaxy. In other words, earth just developed quickly, so now we’re here before any other earth-like planets have had a chance to develop intelligent life.
I don’t think that we are pretty early. Our galaxy already exists for so long, it’s unfathomable. Yet, it seems to be empty and lifeless.
My mistake, I thought you had said something to that effect.
Well for what it’s worth, we do seem to be early. Our sun appears to be among the first wave of “3rd generation stars” (stars that were born from the nebula of a supernova of a star that was born the same way, from another supernova). It’s thought that only those 3rd Gen stars will have planets with enough heavy elements to support life. All elements heavier than iron [26] on the periodic table, can only be created naturally in a supernova.
So yeah, the theory is, if we’re one of the first 3rd Gen stars out there in this galaxy, and if life formed on this planet basically as soon as it could have after the earth cooled enough, then we’re probably early on the scene for life.
- interstellar travel is never feasible for any civ, no matter how advanced,
I like the idea behind the concept of the Great Filter, but that point does not seems logic as it would imply that irregardless of how advanced a civ is, they would not be able to build anything that can even make just a one way travel to a star just a few year light far away. Right, it is not simple, but a civ even just a couple centuries head of us should be able to do it.
My friend, that’s exactly my point. That is, they’ve had enough time to show up but they are nowhere to be seen.
Wait a moment, maybe I understand wrong (English is not my first language) but I understand that you said that the Great Filter is the reason why we don’t see them and point out 3 possible points.
I dispute your first point to be not really an explanation or an option since saying “never feasible for any civ, no matter how advanced” just seems to be a too harsh limit on what a civ could do, which looking at our past history seems an unreasonable limit.
My friend, that’s exactly my point. That is, they’ve had enough time to show up but they are nowhere to be seen.
Your point seems to be that since there is the Great Filter (btw, to be proven) then there is no one else out there.
You exclude way simpler possibillities like the option that a civ just a couple centuries ahead of use could already be colonizating the nearby stars, they just are 1000 LY away so we cannot yet see them (assuming we even know what to look for).
Maybe it’s because we’re not as evolved as we think. If aliens did appear, how many kooks would want to attack them because they are different?
If they land in one country, would other countries get jealous or scared, thinking that country now has an advantage? Shit, what happens if the neighbouring country had nukes; would they launch?
More likely is that if aliens had detected life here, Earth would be marked as a red, no-go zone, because of how unstable, tribal and violent we are.
Every conservative on earth would demand we attack the flying illegal aliens. Our planet’s dumbest of dipshit right-wingers would be outside shooting at clouds all night long.
There are many ideas and no definite proof. I like the idea that species either try to reach the stars and fail because it costs too much energy, or they find a sustainable lifestyle and not leave their home planet as Dr. Fatima pointed out in a good video
Nice, thanks. I’m of the opinion that any form of civilisation is doomed in about 200 Earth years’ equivalent past their industrial revolution. It is a bit crude, but I will say: so far 100% of the cases I’m analysing have collapse as an expected outcome.
What even makes you think the industrial revolution is a given? It happened exactly once at earth. Also: We are not doomed. It is easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism but both are possible outcomes
I don’t think it’s a given, but the moment it happens, it’s over. I love your optimism but I’m far too old to have it too.
Dr. Fatima is incredible, absolutely love her.
gestures around broadly
It’s because we have chins. They think we’re weird.
It can be as low as only four out of 10,000 galaxies having one civilization
Well that’s a new depth of loneliness I didn’t know existed before. Great.
I like to think about it differently: That this planet is an incredibly unique and rare thing and humans are even more incredibly unique in the universe. And from that one thing makes us and our planet very very special.
deleted by creator
Rare Earth by Peter Ward is what you’re after here. I took an elective in college that effectively was reading a bunch of space science (and history, it was odd) and discussing. This one caught me off guard but was a decent breakdown of a possible answer to Fermi.
I don’t necessarily agree with the supposition, mainly because it still comes from a place of specifically carbon-based life as the end goal. But they do lay out reasoning in an easy to understand way that was super neat to learn.
So their whole argument is that tectonic plates are needed for complex life to emerge. There isn’t much proof for it either way obviously but I find the argument flawed.
In any case, here is why I think aliens are here, either waiting for us to divest ourselves of our economic system and destructive ways (capitalism breaks when you mix in easy space exploration and heavy automation) or observing us and how changes emerge in our society like we do with secluded tribes.
-
Any advanced civ can tell a planet has life on it from a great distance. If simple life is rare, they would of had a probe here a long long time ago.
-
We started modifying the climate over 3000 years ago. Any civ within an 1000 light year range would have had enough time to notice and make it here. That is around 7 million star systems.
-
An advanced civ would have covered every single solar system with Von Newman probes.
I think the fernie paradox is more of a test than a rule. Any civ that can’t pull itself out of the muck is probably bad news for galactic society, so they wait and see.
I find the idea that all intelligent species have the same dominator instinct driving them to explore, exploit, and colonize to be flawed. Not even all humans have this instinct, it’s just that our western societies are all about domination so we grow up thinking it’s the norm.
I agree, that is why I didn’t bring up the possibility of enslavement or colonization. I’d even say the chances are higher of a civ being benign than not when reaching a space faring stage. I base this on mostly nothing.
I do believe an intelligent creature is probably at least mildly curious. Couple that with the likely hood of an advance civ having enough resources to build whatever projects they want, only a small subset of their population would need to be curious enough to make it a reality.
-
“It’s like winning the lottery,” Taras Gerya, a geophysicist at the research university ETH Zurich in Switzerland and an author of the study, told Mashable. “It can be so rare that we don’t have much of a chance to be contacted,” added Gerya, who coauthored the study with Robert Stern, a geoscientist at the University of Texas at Dallas. -article
Why would they contact us? Kopernik got a lot wrong, but he was right in that we are nothing special. A species advanced enough to contact other lifeforms must run across planets in various states of ruin 12 a day.
I think it’s fundamentally interesting to see other biology. Just look at us trying to catalogue every possible life on earth, no matter how mundane.
What if we are the only ones obsessed with alien and space travels? What if there are quite a few aliens, but they are busy eating fruit and sleeping in the sun.
I liked the Jupiter rising explanation. Just a planet free range farming for organic matter. Would make alot of sense.
