I don’t like Joe Biden, I’ll never forget the Neoliberal bullshit he did with the Republicans in the 90s we are still suffering from further eviscerating the safetynet to the draconian war on people suffering addiction. He’s one of the OG former opposition party members the Reagan Revolution convinced to take the bigger bribe checks from Wall Street than Unions could ever match, today’s neoliberal(D) party.
That said, I voted for him in the last election, and I will again out of harm reduction. He has improved on policy, but l even if he didn’t, the American people do not get a vote on whether or not to elect a senile President this cycle.
You can have any President you like, as long as he’s senile. If you vote, we’ll get a senile President. If you don’t, we’ll get a senile President.
The question is whether you want senile and gleefully cruel®, or just senile(D). I’ll take just senile.
Or vote third-party, and you’ll probably get a senile President, but maybe not.
And more importantly, you’re helping to break the Duopoly and normalize voting third-party.
If a minor party manages to get 5% of the vote, they qualify for federal funding in the next election, and that might lead to real change.
Cornel West is polling at about 3% (and after Biden’s performance, I wouldn’t be surprised if Cornel picks up a couple more percent). We could be close.
Edit: Or just keep on thinking you have to settle for the lesser of two evils. (How’s that working out for you?)
If you’re in a state that will certainly be blue or red and has 0% chance of swinging unless a huge proportion of the population changes their party affiliation (California, New York, Mississippi, Alabama, to name a few) then vote 3rd party, sure.
If your state was within 10% of flipping colors in any of the past 3 presidential elections, DO NOT vote 3rd party. Your vote matters too much to risk it.
Yeah, that’s the conventional wisdom. When Ross Perot ran, most of his support came from states that weren’t swing states.
(Despite often being called a “spoiler”, he probably had little impact on the result of the election because of that.)
But! Later polls showed that 35% of voters would have voted for Perot if they thought he could win. And if all those people had voted for Perot, he would have won!
Just something to think about.
If we could somehow ensure that our actual desires were reflected by our votes without simultaneously risking our vote being wasted by splitting support between similar candidates, we could have actual representative democracy. But we all have a duty to prevent the worst to the best of our ability, even at the sacrifice of our support of what we think would be best, but unlikely.
Vote for ranked choice voting however you can. This paradox is intentional design, not an unforeseen consequence. We need to rework the voting system before things have any chance to get better without violent revolution.
It’s actually been mathematically proven that ranked-choice voting does not eliminate the so-called spoiler effect. It’s called Arrow’s Impossibity Theorem.
As people who live in a country with FPTP voting, we’re all intimately familiar with the drawbacks of FPTP voting. But all voting systems have their drawbacks.
(I’ve actually been a volunteer election worker in a country with ranked ballots and proportional representation, and the experience actually soured me on ranked ballots and proportional representation.)
Countries like Canada and the UK manage to have four or five parties with FPTP voting.
Stop waiting for the perfect voting system, because there is no perfect system.
Countries like Canada and the UK manage to have four or five parties with FPTP voting.
And they both are dominated by 2 parties. Hardly a defense of FPTP.
Stop waiting for the perfect voting system, because there is no perfect system.
There may be no perfect system, but there are certainly systems that utterly fail to capture the will of the people, and FPTP (especially the US’s implementation of it) is one such system. People aren’t going to magically all change their centuries long behavior of voting for 1 of two parties. This is a systematic problem, and the solution is election reform.
And they both are dominated by 2 parties. Hardly a defense of FPTP.
Justin Trudeau’s current government is a minority government being propped up by a minor party (the NDP). That minor party were able to get the government to pass a Pharmacare bill in exchange for their support.
With just 24 seats in parliament, the NDP were able to deliver on an election promise to their voters. I’d say that’s pretty good.
I disagree. I too have been involved in elections in my country (Australia) and preferential voting system is pretty popular. As candidates get eliminated your vote keeps moving to your next choice. What could possibly be fairer?
What could possibly be fairer?
Approval or STAR voting, since they are more heavily utilized by all citizens instead of just white people, they are purely additive unlike ranked, which allows for easy auditing and making sharing the results possible in real time.
They’re also far easier to explain, which makes voting more inclusive, and the results more straightforward to follow.
RCV is definitely better than what we have now, but if we’re gonna have election reform we should go for the best possible system, not a half measure like RCV.
And yet minor parties fair pretty poorly in Australian elections, and always have. Minor parties currently have 6 seats in Australia’s House of Representatives (up from 3 in the previous parliament).
In Canada, third-parties (Greens, Bloc Quebecois, and NDP) have 56 seats between them.
In the UK, there are 11 third-parties represented in the House of Commons, with 84 seats between them.
and he still would have lost. he got nearly 20% of the popular vote and exactly 0 electoral votes. until we change the system, they cannot win. sorry. please vote against fascism
Notably, had Perot won that potential 35% of the popular vote, he would have carried 32 states with 319 electoral votes, more than enough to win the presidency.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Perot_1992_presidential_campaign#Results
But he didn’t. He didn’t get a single electoral vote.
Yes, but he would have won if everyone had voted how their heart desired.
Both major parties want you to believe that voting third-party is “throwing your vote away”, but it isn’t true. Simply expressing your heart’s desire and having it counted on the public record makes voting worthwhile, even if your candidate doesn’t win. (And in the case of Ross Perot, he would have won.)
You might as well say that voting for anyone except the candidate who is leading in the polls is throwing your vote away if that’s how you see it.
A woman from a formerly Communist Eastern European country once told me a story. After their country had democratized, there was an election held on the day of a horrible blizzard. Her mother and father wanted to vote for one candidate, and her brother and sister wanted to vote for the rival candidate.
“Why don’t we all just stay home, since our votes will cancel each other out anyway”, someone said. And so her mother and sister decided to stay home. But her father and brother went out into the blizzard to vote, knowing that their votes would cancel each other out.
They just wanted to participate in democracy. They wanted to express themselves and be counted, even if it didn’t change anything.
^THIS^
Once First Past the Post voting is gone, and ranked choice is in, third party will be viable.
But right now, that’s not the reality we live in.
Once the thing that’s never going to happen happens…
Well it’s certainly not going to happen if you ignore the realities of first past the post voting systems, vote third party, and let the party that depends on tactics to subvert democratic will win an election they shouldn’t have. Do that, and you may just not get to vote at all anymore.
Well it’s certainly not going to happen if you ignore the realities of first past the post voting systems,
If you’ve got a large popular mandate that reliably shows support for a policy (say, a large plurality willing to change FPTP to STB or Approval voting or whatever) then you can affect the change.
But even more than FPTP, we have a supermajority mandate to make changes to the electoral system on that scale.
Easier to win 50%+1 on an issue of policy than 67% on an issue of electoral function.
Do that, and you may just not get to vote at all anymore.
Civil Rights and Women’s Lib had to be achieved outside the electoral system, because these groups were deliberately disenfranchised.
Or vote third-party, and you’ll probably get a senile President, but maybe not.
Vote third party and we are guaranteed to get a senile president. It’s a two party FPTP system.
Edit: Or just keep on thinking you have to settle for the lesser of two evils. (How’s that working out for you?)
Better than telling people to throw away their vote. How’s that working for you? How many 3rd party presidents have you gotten elected with your strategy? How many fascist policies has your strategy avoided us?
I’ve long fantasized of people being so fed up with both parties, that along would come a third party at the right time and enough people would flock to them that and vote them into office.
But it’s just that: A fantasy.
And anyways, there’s always the chance that said third party would be way way worse and maybe there’s a good reason why they weren’t more prominent to begin with.
I’d be lying if I said I didn’t have the same fantasy, but until we get election reform it will only ever be fantasy.
And until it happens, we will never get election reform.
Not necessarily. The MAGA crowd took over the GOP. The same could be done for the DNC, but with actual leftists and election reformists.
There are several reasons why the MAGA crowd were allowed to take over the GOP. First, because they weren’t pushovers, if the party had tried shenanigans to stop them there was a real possibility of people defecting from the party en masse, and even of violence at the convention. Second, because the things they wanted weren’t really all that contrary to what the rich donors wanted.
The Democratic base is much more weak willed and willing to go along with whatever to stop the right. We don’t have enough of that Karen energy, that “my way or the highway” attitude. And election reform is directly contrary to the interests of the establishment, and the aim of prioritizing ordinary people over the rich goes against the interests of the doners. They’ll crush any internal movement in that direction, and people will still vote for them because of “vote blue no matter who” and lesser evilist ideology.
It’s obvious third parties have no chance. Why even pretend that’s not true?
What if I don’t like any of the major minor parties either?
If every single person on Lemmy voted third-party I guarantee you they wouldn’t carry a single state. In a two party dominated FPTP/winner takes all system voting third-party for president is irresponsible
In a two party dominated FPTP/winner takes all system voting third-party for president is irresponsible
So the two major parties keep telling us.
So stats tells us.
Vote third part and see how that works out for you.
Please don’t
Most of these people can’t be reasoned with. We’re at the point where there’s no excuses for them not to vote to keep Trump from taking over.
The gloves are off.
Okay, but swinging at third party people does nothing to sway them, tends to do the opposite, and tires you out. It’s like punching your own dick instead of your opponent in a boxing match.
They’re not third party. I’ll all but guarantee it. They’re just trying to ensure no one votes for Biden.
Because people not thinking like you is clear indication they are wrong. Sure
Will do. Thank you.
the American people do not get a vote on whether or not to elect a senile President this cycle
I feel like I’ve somehow become trapped in some kind of simulation or thought experiment where the purpose of it is to make lesser evilism seem as ridiculous as conceivably possible, and every time I think it’s peaked with just comical levels of absurdity, it somehow manages to escalate.
do not get a vote on whether or not to elect a senile President this cycle
Yeah this is just false.
Which candidate of our only 2 parties that matter isn’t senile this cycle?
He’s probably a brain parasite guy.
Poor little guy starved to death.
I support the brain worms for all American humans policy.
Love that ratio!
It’s up to the DNC as to which candidate takes the running ballot. I’m betting there are a lot of conversations right now about who will be that person.
You are half right and half wrong because that decision will come down to whether establishment Democrats or populist Democrats win.
And to be quiet frank, I don’t even think the DNC gets a say. Since Biden is the incumbent, unless he bows out voluntarily, I don’t think we the people or the DNC get to choose.
Our hands are really tied when it comes to the presidential frontrunner, unfortunately.
It’s always telling when some one insists that a statement is true when they themselves know that it isn’t.
It’s 💯 the case the Biden isn’t the nominee today. I’m not arguing if it’s going to be a progressive or a insider that replaces him. Frankly, I could give a shit because either will be doing instantly better than Biden.
Biden is replaceable and there is a cult of personality that has developed that believes this isn’t the case. They’re wrong. There as delusional as the right wing MAGA crowd and their doing MAGAs work for them as the useful idiots that they are.
It’s important to keep it clear that I’m not arguing that some how magically were going to replace Biden with a progressive. I’m arguing that needs to, and will be, replaced. That’s what Thursday showed us, and I know for a fact that the Beltway heard this.
The party that needs to be convinced is Harris. And I think she can be. All of these machinations are happening this weekend, as we speak.
My called shot: Biden steps down as early as Monday, as late as two weeks from Monday. I’m going to be making some calls and seeing what tea I can find spilled.
I never refuted your claim in certainty, rebutting with my own truth statements. In my comment, I pointed to the variables in effect leading to whether Biden stays in the race or bows out. Realistically, it’s uncertain at this moment.
I will say that if and once donors dry up, I do think that the DNC will take action. What action that is will depend.
It’s going to be an exciting few days/weeks.
Except you do get to vote for no senility. That is what the primaries were for. Trump was actually struggling quite a bit against a young woman.
As was Biden for a hot second against a younger candidate. That was short lived. Biden was also getting a bit of a slap by a few people who were not on board for having Biden run the party again.
This is why you don’t sleep through the primaries and complain you only get the only one vote on parties.
You can have any President you like, as long as he’s senile. If you vote, we’ll get a senile President. If you don’t, we’ll get a senile President.
there are other candidates you can vote for
You’re still going to get a senile president.
Harm reduction dictates voting for the least harmful outcome, period.
the least harmful outcome is a third party winning
In which reality is that possible? Don’t be a dumbass.
The same reality that thinking voting for Biden in a rural deep conservative state is going to swing the vote. You can convince every person in the cities to vote democratic and still lose to the country side that state. Voting doesn’t work the same for every state, don’t shame people for voting their conscious. It’s always okay to shame voting for Trump, but don’t shame people for voting third party.
Afaik, that’s simply not true. Take a look at the margins that Biden won by in 2020 in a few key states.
You’ll notice that the third party votes could’ve easily swung the state outcome either way.
Finally, you’ll notice how far behind third party votes are. The conclusion I’m drawing is that the possibility of third party votes influencing the outcome between the two candidates is greater than the possibility of a third party candidate winning.
I think we both agree that there are locations and states where it does truly matter. I think where I’d disagree is that it’s not applicable for every state. Sometimes it’s already decided on where you live. It’s better not to shame third party voters in situations like that. The only way to get a third party one day is by starting in locations like that. Though coming from a situation like that, I also understand it’s a less stressful election than one that you have a chance of winning. Just not worth shaming others who don’t have the option of winning and vote third party for president for their conscious. Still voting blue for everything else though.
I am not going to vote for Joe Biden. I am going to vote for the Biden Administration. They can “Weekend at Bernie’s” the old man for all I care.
Biden could drop dead on January 21st and we’ll still get to call this mission accomplished, VP Jeffries ain’t a half bad outcome personally, although Kamala having her eyes on that incumbent effect is gonna make me groan come 28
Jeffries is literally one of the most corrupt neolibs in Congress in terms of taking bribe money.
That’s been the standard US Presidential SOP since Nixon developed a serious drinking problem and Kissinger demanded all orders go through him first (so as to avoid WW3).
They had an old, dementia ridden actor, and the dumb-ass Bush son for that reason, too. HW Bush could handle his shit but he raised taxes and puked on the Japanese PM so that’s a pass. Trump is just another stooge to be kept in line so that his doners get what they want.
This is a good perspective. Great way to look at it.
Sounds like a great strategy… smh
Might as well give Trump the presidency on a silver platter
Tell me you skim when you read without telling me you skim when you read. 🤣
Nah you should be advocating his replacement
Sounds like a great strategy… smh
Might as well give Trump the presidency on a silver platter
Better idea than voting for Biden’s earworms
Biden shit the bed and should fuck off. But I’d vote for his corpse over any filthy republican traitor.
Both candidates would be more attractive to me if they died actually lol I wish we had the option to just skip having a president for 4 years haha
A shame the electoral college voters won’t feel the same way
So the man has a stutter, and he’s old, what ever. All I can do is cast my single vote. Last time, I voted against Trump, and honestly, even after the debate, I’ll cast my vote this time for Biden.
I’d much rather cast my vote for Hakeem Jeffries, or Shift, or Bernie, or a dozen other people who aren’t an option.
Thing is, I’m going to cast my vote in Cook county IL, so it literally won’t matter. IL is going blue no matter what, and I feel like my participation is merely token.
I wish I could do more, I want to scream at clouds about what is happening to the country, and it doesn’t matter.
Saw a stat that says Trump is 65% to win, and want to physically grab people and shake them, but what would it matter?
Had I walked into that debate blind, not knowing who those people are, what the “facts” and the facts are, I’d have thought, that Biden guy seems weak and befuddled, and boy that Trump is sure a confident leader. It made me feel sick.
As I told my mother today, I don’t have kids, I live in the midwest, have a good job with a big stable company, truth is, even a second Trump term won’t effect me that much. I can just sit back, enjoy my 30 so years left, and watch the world burn, but damn it, I have empathy for others, and there are many, many people whose lives and livelihood are going to be seriously impacted, and that bothers me.
I’ll also be casting my vote in Cook county. I have hispanic kids. My wife is Salvadoran. She is a US citizen born and raised in the US. I’m a white atheist and a dual citizen of the EU who has had the audacity to previously speak poorly about my corporate overlords. I grew up in the south. I don’t trust these project 2025 fucks to stop at illegal immigrants. Biden sucks, but I’ll vote for him anyway because the system literally gives me no other option. Until the system changes or fails, this is what we must do.
If you value the supreme court, lower court appointments, social security, healthcare, childcare, the environment, action on climate change, a competent CDC for the pandemics we’re going to experience more frequently, etc., vote Biden. Yes he’s old. Yes he sucks. Unfortunately he’s the lesser of two evils. And by a wide margin.
If your district is definitely going blue then you could safely vote 3rd party… Think of it as a vote to change the fptp system. There is no way the system will ever change if we don’t start forcing it to.
2016 called, they want their apathy for keeping fascists out of the government back.
Sure wish the DNC and Biden would heed the call
This Biden protection is crazy. we need a candidate who actually stands a chance against Trump. this is insane. It’s 2016 all over again.
I don’t even see why that matters. Even if the candidate was an actual real turnip, the choice would be obvious.
I mean I don’t vote in your election but it seems quite clear to me.
I think part of our different view might be based on how our electoral system is.
So to explain: Trump’s never won a popular election before. Even when he became president, most Americans voted for his opposition Hillary Clinton. We have a very gerrymandered and corrupt voting system to oversimplify. Because of that The main decider for presidential elections is voting turnout. If a lot of people come out to vote, the Democrats usually win. If they don’t the Republicans win. Voter turnout is higher when people want to vote for the Democratic nominee. No one really wants to vote for Biden. Most of us will vote against Trump myself included. That being said, if we run a very unlikable candidate against him like we did in 2016, he might win and that’s terrifying. This election is serious so we should take it seriously and run somebody likeable and not half way to being a turnip.
God forbid if Biden stays in there, I hope he wins. I’ll even vote for him but I am not feeling good about his odds.
I think you missed their point. They, and many others, don’t know why anyone would vote for Trump to begin with. Of course, I said the same thing when he first started being presented as a candidate for 2016. Like, of all people, him? But, here we are today, wondering if he actually had a chance for another term.
A different voting method may have avoided him getting this far, but he really shouldn’t have even gotten out of the joke candidate category to begin with.
My bad Thanks for letting me know.
I totally get that sentiment. I don’t really understand it either. I have family members that votes for Trump. It’s like their brain is rotted. They constantly use words that they don’t have a definition for like woke or CRT. They think everyone is lying except for Trump. It’s terrifying honestly.
I think that’s about 30% to 40% of Americans sadly.
In my experience, the people who vote Republican/conservative/Trump do so out of a certain amount of philosophical and emotional laziness and denial. Confronting the roots of our societal problems is difficult and uncomfortable, and takes a degree of empathy and emotional intelligence that many people simply do not have. To be clear; it is rarely their fault and frequently a result of the external influences and education during their formative years.
The conservative viewpoint that has functionally become hereditary and contagious is that you are special and good, and the only people that are also special and good must have the same values, prejudices, advantages, and deficiencies that you do. This is why if you are nice and polite to conservatives they start spouting more and more bigoted bullshit. It’s because, in their mind, the only good people are the ones that agree with them, and they perceive you as “good” for extending basic decency to them.
This cognitive shortcut is how I have succeeded in planting a lot of seeds of progressive values in the minds of my classmates at the conservative, religious school I accidentally ended up in. Each one of them is a single starfish, so to speak, but each individual moves the needle a little bit. Small progress is better than no progress.
I also attended a small private religious conservative school growing up. Happy to see someone like me out in the world with progressive politics. Good on you stranger. ☺️ I hope you’re living life to the fullest.
That explanation makes sense to me. Good theory 👈😎
I compare my time in a similar situation to being exposed to some nasty disease. It was misery at the time but has provided some inoculation against authoritarianism and demagoguery since. Also let me know sadists are a thing.
This is why if you are nice and polite to conservatives they start spouting more and more bigoted bullshit
I always interpret this as projecting their opinions. If you give the person nothing to suggest a specific political leaning and have a positive enough interaction it’s too easy for them to assume you hold the same values as you.
I’ve honestly caught myself in the same, so I just try to stay apolitical in interactions at work until others reveal their opinions to me
TLDR: the Electoral College is DEI for Republicans.
Addendum point: The people we need to convince to win are not the people who see the obvious distinction between Joe and Trump, and if you haven’t convinced them yet, you probably aren’t going to – especially not after that debate performance (which is why they took the gamble to do that debate in the first place).
And before that, it was DEI for the pro-slavery States. Back before black people and even women could vote, whites didn’t have numbers enough to win many elections, so they created the Electoral College and made it so that black people counted as 3/5ths of a “person” and slave owners could vote in the names of their slaves.
Ah yes the 3/5 “compromise”.
Yeah, this is where I’m at. I’m not an American, but I will feel the impact of your country’s decisions very quickly. I think the best option is to beg the non-voters to get out and vote however you can while building a new party, or rebuilding an existing one, from the local level on up until you have a realistic chance of putting a leader worth having in place.
For what it’s worth, I think the Biden administration hasn’t done terribly. They could have done much better with the latest episode of the Israel-Gaza conflict, but we literally had Congress people advocating for a nuclear response. A lot of improvements in other areas were quietly made in the background that wasn’t really talked about. I can’t say if that’s because Biden picked the right people to get things done, he had the right vision, or he just had good handlers. I’m not sure I care because, whatever the answer is, the opponent certainly doesn’t have any of those.
Because he has to be effective for four more years after the vote.
Fuck its like you people think everything just closes up for the next four years and elections are just a one-day championship ceremony
After the ceremony, you plant the turnip in a flower pot and have the administration run things. There’s hundreds of other people, from ministers (or secretaries, over there) to all kinds of aides and attachés and whatnot. Just one guy missing wouldn’t really make much difference.
Agree, this astroturfing is insane. I can’t help but think it’s a coordinated campaign, because Biden was very clearly senile in that debate, if not something worse. Democrats can still win if they let Biden retire and choose someone who can rebut Donald Trump.
Just look at my two recent submissions to c/politics that were immediately down-voted anonymously for highlighting FOCUS GROUPS of UNDECIDED SWING VOTERS.
Not one substantive argument.
And you know I can’t tell if it’s scared Dems, or astroturfing right-wing operatives trying to ensure we maintain course with this sinking ship.
Dude I’ve been wondering the same thing lately. I’ve been countering the same types. I’ve been referring to him as blue maga.
Not astroturfers; brigaders…the worst kind of trumpian pussy
Are there any communities where we can look at that kind of data and commentary without being censored? Lmk, c/politics is insane.
c/politics is a radical conservative liberal shithole. None of those people give one single fuck about this country or it’s people. They’re fucking brunch lemmings who round up their change at Whole Foods and think they’ve saved the world
To be fair, that’s just Lemmy.world in general at this point in time. It’s only gotten worse.
Rich people who are less and less connected with those they pretend to be on the same side of. There is also a lot of entitlement of thinking they know how everything works and they and only they have the right answers from most of the user base of Lemmy. That’s a curse from everyone that’s here thinking they are “smarter” for being here than traditional social media.
Hey it worked out well when they protected Hillary…
Wait no it didn’t
Any other candidate just wouldn’t have the name recognition. Millions of Americans just vote for the incumbent regardless of who it is
If Biden gets out of the way (of his own accord or not) and somebody else becomes the nominee, they will have name recognition immediately. I promise you.
They really won’t. I think as someone on Lemmy you’re probably overestimating how much the average person pays attention to politics
I appreciate the non-rude and direct response. Someone else raised this point to me and I responded with this link that shows 70% of Americans watch cable news. Considering digital news is much bigger now, that means even more Americans watch the news regularly, so I believe you are incorrect.
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I hope you find a way to be happy one day stranger. It’s got to be miserable being that angry all the time. 🫂 I don’t think you find the release you need being rude to strangers online but where ever it actually is I hope you find it.☺️
Is this the new liberal bible prayer each night? Keep telling yourself
god is real and he loves youBiden will win because he’s a “good” choice for the idiots who don’t know better?Hey now that we have the benefit of hindsight I just wanted to show you how wrong you were and how confident you can be that youre right when you’re so so wrong please be a little more open-minded going forward and listen to people😏
Bush was clearly the face man of an executive admin that he didn’t run, he was s figure head. Clinton, it was assumed by the press and a lot of the voter base wasn’t running his admin, the first term Hillary was said to be running things and a slew of technocrats was assumed his second term, Reagan, we now know historically, was experiencing Alzheimer’s all through out his presidency, much like Trump, he also had a strict schedule of not even pretending he showed up to work.
There’s nothing wrong with electing the face of an administration you want in office, this is largely Obama’s admin still running the government, that’s what we all want. Unkie Joe can take all the naps he wants, it make no real difference.
And the guy who already beat him once just isn’t good enough huh
Biden seems to misunderstand why he won.
He seems to think that people were really impressed with him as a candidate and that since he’s so much more impressive than all the other potential Democratic nominees, he’s the only logical choice to try to beat Trump.
He certainly enjoyed the support of many people who believe that but he relied heavily on the support of several other cohorts to push him over the edge. Those cohorts didn’t like him. They didn’t like him at all. They just hated Trump more, held their noses, and voted for Not Trump.
Biden has been telling several of those cohorts that their priorities don’t matter. He had tenuous support from those groups and he took that support for granted. Many of those groups are now thinking, “You failed to deliver on the one thing we wanted from you. I no longer see you as a significant improvement over Trump.”
Claiming that they’re just throwing a tantrum over a raspy voice further trivializes their concerns and pushes them farther away.
A clever MAGA troll would make exactly this kind of post. All it does alienate critical voters from Democrats.
It’s important to remember Bernie was set to have the lead after Super Tuesday.
Then within like 24 hours of Super Tuesday, pretty much every other candidate dropped out and endorsed Biden.
It was too late notice for Bernie to campaign in all the states, or for voters to decide. They just followed their candidates advice and voted Biden.
Biden never had a mandate, and 2020 came down to a handful of states by like 10k votes each.
Mainstream media has been calling him “the next fdr” for so long I think he legitimately believes. He has no idea how unpopular he is with the average voter, because he doesn’t interact with the average voter. His campaign is tailored to getting donations from the wealthy, so Biden just gets handshakes from the famous and wealthy that tell him he’s perfect.
He’s insulated from real feedback and believe his yes men.
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The first primary was marred by controversy, as technical issues with vote reporting resulted in a three-day delay in vote counting in the Iowa caucus, as well as subsequent recounts. The certified results of the caucus eventually showed Mayor Pete Buttigieg winning the most delegates, while Senator Bernie Sanders won the popular vote in the state. Sanders then won the New Hampshire primary in a narrow victory over Buttigieg before handily winning the Nevada caucus, solidifying Sanders’ status as the front-runner for the nomination.[6][7]
Biden, whose campaign fortunes had suffered from losses in Iowa, New Hampshire and Nevada, made a comeback by overwhelmingly winning the South Carolina primary, motivated by strong support from African American voters, an endorsement from South Carolina U.S. Representative Jim Clyburn, as well as Democratic establishment concerns about nominating Sanders.[8] After Biden won South Carolina, and one day before the Super Tuesday primaries, several candidates dropped out of the race and endorsed Biden in what was viewed as a consolidation of the party’s moderate wing. Prior to the announcement, polling saw Sanders leading with a plurality in most Super Tuesday states.[9] Biden then won 10 out of 15 contests on Super Tuesday, beating back challenges from Sanders, Warren, and former New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, solidifying his lead.[9]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries
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and one day before the Super Tuesday primaries, several candidates dropped out of the race and endorsed Biden in what was viewed as a consolidation of the party’s moderate wing. Prior to the announcement, polling saw Sanders leading with a plurality in most Super Tuesday states
Biden won because every other candidate besides Bernie coalesced around him to stop Bernie from winning as projected.
Did you see the debate last night? That ain’t the dude who ran in 2020. Also I think the political pressure pot of 2020 was unique because people were trapped inside and forced to watch the news even more. People would have voted for anyone but Trump then. There’s still a lot of people that feel that way myself included. But not everyone who felt that way in 2020 feels that way in 2024. That’s just the reality. I really don’t think Biden has it this time.
He should have been running ads reminding people of 2020
Biden literally hung his mouth open like a brain dead zombie. He lost his train of thought multiple times… He said “we beat Medicare” ffs. Wtf does that mean?? I want to defeat Trump, but Biden is not going to accomplish that. Change the Democratic candidate before it’s too late.
Even he agrees he isnt. How does it feel to be this wrong lol.
I think it’s more insane to say that Biden doesn’t have a chance against Trump when he’s already beaten Trump once, which is why he’s President Biden.
People aren’t even giving him crediting for beating Medicare!
/s
In all seriousness though, I just can’t understand how someone can watch the 2020 debate and 2024 debate, and say the only thing wrong with Biden was his voice…
Like, he wasn’t great in 2020, but 2024 made it sound like Obama in comparison.
The worst part is he was coherent afterwards. The fuck happened.
I think he was massively over coached. Trying to fight to remember a ton of talking points and then getting them muddled up and stuck in that detail. He’d have been better off just freestyling it.
Seriously he just needed one or two dark brandon moments to get trump on tilt and it’s smooth sailing from there. Oh well. I’ll enjoy the dem campaign managers running around with their hair on fire while I can. They should’ve managed someone else into the spotlight years ago.
I hate that the can’t have notes, they should have a whole team up there to craft the best answer because that’s what I want them to do in real life, work as a team leveraging all available resources to make the best choice
My bet is that Trump’s stream of bullshit just threw Biden off completely, and his quick recovery to that fiery speech was him getting pissed that he got curbstomped by Shitler in a debate
Next debate should hopefully be VERY different
No way should it have. In fact that should have been the literal one thing they were expecting.
Hence him getting pissed after. Embarassment due to being stomped by a strategy he knows about
I may be a shitlib for saying this but biden debated trump before and handled him. There’s no reason he couldn’t have handled him now, except his brain is soup. Trump’s brain is likely in a similar situation, but seeing as he already spoke like a 3rd grader, the difference isn’t as alarming.
If that’s what’s true then both him and his prep team failed horribly. Everyone knew that was going to be Trump strategy. That’s a very common conservative strategy. There’s even words for it I’ve seen multiple YouTube videos breaking this issue down. Just a constant stream of unending lies. It’s what they do. There’s no way to beat it directly. The only thing you can do is scoff at it and redirect to something else.
Oh yeah for sure. It’s why I think his later fire is due to him being pissed - I’d be pissed at myself too if I got thrown off by something I should have KNOWN was coming
My bet is that Trump’s stream of bullshit just threw Biden off completely,
So, you think during those Camp David prep sessions everyone was talking about pre debate…
Not a single person expected trump would show up and act exactly like he has in the last two elections?
And you think it’s fine to leave these people in charge of beating trump?
exactly.
Y’all nibbas need Jesus
The deflection that has caused every Democrat loss in recent history.
“Biden shit the bed. WhAt DiD tRuMp Do??!?!1/11!?”
he was coherent afterwards
He was reported coherent as soon as he was off camera.
He’s at his very best when it comes to small talk & happy talk with small crowds of people. Small lines, empty promises. Quick touch-and-go interactions. No opposition. In debates where he’s required to explain himself, answer lines of questioning (without teleprompter), not so much.
It’s also possible he got another shot of drugs post-debate to perk him up for the crowd of his own supporters.
Funny the way you mentioned Obama because you are spot on.
Obama was by far the best US president in recent history and maybe ever. Then the Dems just went like OK we’ll never ever do something like that again.
Obama was by far the best US president in recent history and maybe ever.
If you ignore public policy and just fixate on optics, maybe.
If you ignore public policy and just fixate on optics
DNC: This is the way
Then the Dems just went like OK we’ll never ever do something like that again.
I mean, it’s because instead of pulling the DNC left. He just abandoned it because it was a relic of the past and it was easier to just ignore the DNC and let state parties handle their own shit.
His mistake was not completely burning the DNC down. So after he left office and moderates retook control in 2016, they’ve made a lot of moves to ensure a moderate or Republican are the only two options.
People talk about how much Obama pissed off trump.
But its nothing compared to how much Obama pissed off “moderates”.
But its nothing compared to how much Obama pissed off “moderates”.
Are you being fucking for real right now
Obama, and I say this as someone who has a positive opinion of Obama insofar as one can in the political environment that he came to power in, was very much himself a moderate. He didn’t ‘piss off’ moderates. He was one.
Jesus Christ.
Are you kidding?
The Dems lost the house of representatives in Obama’s years 3 and 4. Again in years 5 and 6. And then lost both the house of representatives and the Senate in Obama’s years 7 and 8.
And you’re wondering why they didn’t make a big move left after? They lost control in 3 out of 4 elections under Obama. There is more than just the presidential election you know. The left voters never showed up after the first election.
(And imo Hilary did make a move left in climate change with the map room. And guess what, the left voters didn’t show up.)
And guess what, the left voters didn’t show up.
To be fair, Clinton didn’t show up in a lot of swing states, either. She just assumed her Blue Wall would vote for her.
So what do you as the informed left voter, that wants things to move left do? You vote for Dems. You don’t wait to fall in love, you vote.
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On the contrary: that person is an “enlightened centrist” that blames every Dem loss ever on “going left”, even those of near-republicans with no charisma Hillary and Kerry 🤦
Your conclusion that they’re not worth the bother is absolutely right, though.
Lol I’m not a centrist, nice strawman.
More accurately I blame the left voters that never show up. These logical voters, that logically want a logical platform, that makes logical sense, and until then they will logically not vote, or logically vote 3rd party, because they are logical, but wait they need charisma to feed their feelings.
You really do show it’s the old “Dems fall in love, republicans fall in line.”
Nah, I’ve never missed an opportunity to vote.
Pretty sad state of affairs that you think it’s a binary of either no criticism of whatever corporatist is selected for you or ignoring that they’re the least awful choice 🙄
As for “Dems fall in love, Republicans fall in line”, it’s the opposite now: Republicans worship Trump and most of the people voting for Biden have no love for him but fall in line to avoid Trump.
As long as other people learn I’m happy to do it.
As a European, I miss seeing Obama being nice to everyone he meets. I also liked the tan suit btw… Shame he didn’t run again.
Biden has been a far more successful president than Obama when it comes to implementing policies in a progressive direction.
Obama was by far the best US president in recent history and maybe ever. Then the Dems just went like OK we’ll never ever do something like that again.
Here’s what I told someone else:
The Dems lost the house of representatives in Obama’s years 3 and 4. Again in years 5 and 6. And then lost both the house of representatives and the Senate in Obama’s years 7 and 8.
You need more than just the president. They lost in 3 out of 4 of Obama’s cycles. And you’re wondering why they aren’t running to the left? They lost 3 out of 4.
You think they lost because Obama was too far to the left? He was extremely centrist in office.
Sigh.
Why was Obama center for 6 years? Because he didn’t have control of Congress. You need Congress to pass anything. So he was forced to reach across the aisle.
Why? Because left voters never show up. And because left voters never show up, the Dems move to the center to find votes.
Left voters showed up to vote for him and then he basically abandoned the coalition he formed. He had a super majority and did like one, watered down Republican healthcare policy. He should’ve kept up the organizations and email lists he utilized to get into office to keep up the pressure on Congress in midterm elections, but that basically stopped as soon as he became President. He’s not unusual in that regard, every President except for Trump, does this. But it’s especially annoying for Obama because he had the closest to a broad coalition in recent history and it got him a super majority.
Bernie is basically the only Presidential candidate who has shown any awareness of how bottom up coalitions are used, not just to get one into office, but to continue to pressure with the power of the people. That’s why socialists were excited for him. Because he would’ve been an organizer-in-chief. Every other politician rules the same standard way.
Well, Trump does a bit of the organizing thing, too, makes good use of the bully pulpit, and keeps up his movement between election cycles, but mostly to keep himself in power and enrich himself from them. Still, he’s done a similar thing of gotten a lot of non-voters to show up, and pushed the party right. Democrats could do the same thing, and actually push the party left if they wanted to try, instead of showing open contempt for leftists, but it’s admittedly harder because you’d have to fight the corporate owned media and pass legislation, or show you’re actually trying hard to help normal people in public.
Ok Obama and ACA (or more broadly his first two years). He likely reached out for two reasons. One: he wanted to mend the divisions after Bush’s disastrous wars. Get the country unified and back on track and all that jazz. Two: any intelligent candidate knows it’s unlikely they’re going to have control of Congress for all eight years, so he wanted to come off as reasonable and could be worked with, so that he could still accomplish things later in his presidency. I barely blame him for that. Who knew that the GOP was going to explode and become obstructionist to that degree because a half black man got elected. (BTW Biden learned from that and said nuts to it, he’s doing what needs to be done. Biden ran center, but is acting left. Let’s see if it costs him the election when left voters don’t turn out.)
And what was the thanks for the most progressive healthcare legislation? He lost control for the next 6 years. And then the GOP tried their hardest to overturn it. (So no, not a watered down Republican healthcare policy. They fucking hate it.)
pressure with the power of the people
It’s congress. The house or reps and the senate. It’s not the people, it’s congress. That’s why Obama couldn’t do much for his last 6 years. He lost control of the house of reps and the senate.
And to further prove this point, congress even shut down the fucking government under obama. That’s where the power is. Bernie or obama or bill clinton, doesn’t fucking matter. It’s CONGRESS.
Democrats could do the same thing,
Dems need all 3 of presidency, house of reps, and senate to pass anything. They’ve had all 3 for 4 years of the last 24 years. And when they don’t have that they need to reach across the aisle to do something as basic as pass a budget.
The GOP needs only one of those to block literally everything. That’s mostly what the GOP wants to do: Block progress. Hit the big giant pause button on society. And they can do that with only 1 of those, which they’ve had for 20 years of the least 24 years.
That’s the unfortunate reality of progress. Progress takes all 3 houses. Progress takes time, effort, and hard work.
Stagnation (or regression) requires fuck all.
So no, the Dems can’t go left like the GOP goes right. If you want things to go left, then you need to give Dems consistent and overwhelming victories on all 3 houses.
The problem is even when they have control they can barely do anything because of dumb rules like the filibuster, or blue dog senators.
Biden also doesn’t act very left. He’s passed a couple good pieces of legislation, but he doesn’t support popular movements like labor strikes and prefers to make backroom deals (which residues their power for the future organizing), and he’s very staunchly pro genocide for some reason, and been as hard on the border as Trump. He’s just not as fascist as Trump but don’t let the skewed Overton Window deceive you. He’s a centrist moderate Democrat, like an Obama who learned to stop trying to reason with Republicans earlier and picked a few really good people for some cabinet positions (not Blinken, but like for the Secretary of the Interior BLM or FTC) and many meh people for others.
He’s not unusual in that regard, every President except for Trump, does this. But it’s especially annoying for Obama because he had the closest to a broad coalition in recent history and it got him a super majority.
Every president does this, right. The DNC will only let in presidents who do this, who never reach out to their voterbase, and instead focus on an increasingly shrinking, aging, middle class centrist population. So they can then go out and every single time compromise with republicans on policy that makes them look good, and then basically be the exact same on most other policy issues, most notably on foreign policy. Then when they don’t get anything done, oh, well, oh darn it’s gonna be by the metric of whoever the rotating super-corrupt bad guy is in the DNC, by whatever margin they might need. Oops, looks like you guys needed to all vote harder to get rid of manchin and sinema.
Point this all out, and people will call you a conspiratorial “both sides” -ing nutcase, but then people plod along every election with basically all of this baked in as a ground floor assumption, and the same exact strategy as always, and then are either surprised when it blows up and nothing happens, or they stand around with their hands in their pockets and bloviate about how everyone else just needed to vote harder, even though people will endlessly point out about how we have an electoral college, so it doesn’t matter, how the candidates pushed in the primary are guaranteed to be institution candidates, so it doesn’t matter, how voting districts are gerrymandered to shit, how we live in a two party fptp system, how studies confirm that well-funded political interest groups and lobbyists shape policy. How even if we give consistent and overwhelming victories we’ve been shown no indication that things are going to change beyond this, further down the line, because no change is even being attempted earlier on with less power.
They’ve actually shown the opposite by trying to outflank trump on whoever can be the most racist to migrants. They’re totally unwilling to even briefly entertain the idea that they could or should actually take a progressive stance on that issue, or try to explain how maybe migrants are all pretty much more chill than your average american, so instead their genius-level play is to try to take the same position as the guy who’s entire deal has been how racist he can be to migrants. It’s like they basically want to lose and keep the pendulum swinging.
It’s nuts, I don’t understand how nobody’s seeing this shit, we’re totally cooked.
raspy voice
The gaslighting will continue until morale improves.
Alternative is 4 years of more maga federal judges causing multiple generations of damage. It doesn’t matter at all about Bidens health. He has advisors. He has a vice president. No one would be filling federal benches in sewage. That it all that matters.
What does that have to do with anything? Did you reply to the wrong comment?
Sounded like you were saying “just calling it raspy voice is gas lighting”
Yes, which it is. What does that have to do with anything you said?
Because his voice/health has absolutely nothing to do with the election and shouldn’t change any vote from Biden since his health is of no consequence whatsoever.
We weren’t talking about the election or who to vote for, we were talking about his health. You can say that his health isn’t relevant to the question of who you should vote for, but you’re the one who brought that up in the first place. I’m just responding to a lie.
It’s literally just whataboutism, or a non sequitur. If a Trump supporter says something objectively false and I correct them, it would not a valid response for them to bring up problems with Biden in response to that. In the same way, if a Biden supporter says something objectively false and I correct them, then it is not valid to respond to that by talking about problems with Trump.
I’m allowed to keep you people honest, even if acknowledging reality is inconvenient for your narratives or goals.
since his health is of no consequence whatsoever.
Uhm yes? That is the entire point. It is a stressfull job and you need to be at full mental and sufficient physical capacity to handle it. Biden showed that he is not up to it anymore. Trump also is starting to show signs of decline, but he is further ahead of the curve than Biden is.
Either candidate is unfit for office, but for Biden health is the crucial issue. And old age is not something you can recover from. Just statistically it is entirely reasonable to expect either one of them to die in office.
In the unique situation that the country finds itself in with an authoritarian destructive candidate is that any mid alternative is golden. In any other election then less important things like the health of the leader of one of the parties(pres candidate) does matter.
In our situation if the mid party leader dies then he is replaced by another mid. The identity of the mid is of no consequence at all.
If you can’t keep up, I don’t know what to tell you.
Ok then, here’s my response:
There are strong ethical and practical arguments for going vegan, including reducing animal suffering and carbon emissions and reducing the risk of food contamination.
If you question how that relates to the conversation and isn’t just a complete non sequitor, then you can’t keep up and I don’t know what to tell you.
Cool story bro
Debates are little more than performances and Joe completely shit the bed.
This. Debates mattered 20+ years ago, when Candidates had just a few opportunities to talk about who they are, what they’ve done, what they want to do, and why those qualities make them the best choice for President.
Now, we have a near inescapable connection to politics. The content of the message is known, and the only reason for debate is confrontation, and delivery is all that matters.
tbf, debates have the potential to cut through the bubbles people put themselves in. You’re not seeing a manacured presentation of potential policy, you’re seeing it actively challenged…
At least, that’s the idea
I’m sure I didn’t originate that, but it’s fun to see it said.
No. Just no, dude. 64% of Democrats thought he was too old to run, and the party didn’t even hold a primary. Then he walks out for his first debate and gives an incoherent performance that completely validates everyone’s fears about his age, and you want to play it off with a, “bUt HeR eMaiLs!” meme? Screw that. We shouldn’t be trying to convince people they didn’t see what they saw, we should be figuring out how to get him off the fucking ticket.
Why does nobody ever talk about how Trump is too old to run?
Because that doesn’t help Trump get elected.
The people who helped Trump are the ones who made sure the candidate was an unpopular geriatric, not the people who pointed out that was a bad idea.
Being an unpopular geriatric doesn’t seem to be hurting Trump with his voters. You’re doing the very thing I called out in my comment.
Yeah, the difference is the GOP held a primary, and his voters chose a geriatric. The DNC didn’t hold a primary, and ignored polling that showed their voters didn’t want a geriatric. And since you’ve already admitted you haven’t seen the debate, I don’t actually care about what you’ve, “called out,” in your comment, since you literally don’t know what everyone else here is talking about.
I’ve heard Trump speak. I’ve seen the shit he posts. I didn’t need to see yet another example of him acting like a cracked-out dementia patient to know that’s what he is. I have yet to hear a single criticism of Biden that doesn’t fit Trump to a T.
You’re welcome to bury your head in the sand if you want, but then you don’t get to talk down to the people who aren’t choosing willful ignorance. Either watch the debate to find out why people are questioning Biden’s fitness or stop talking.
Trump could be the youngest presidential candidate in history and he would still be essentially just as bad. Possibly even worse. If Biden didn’t have these excruciating moments where he seems super senior and gets incoherent he would be pretty good. Unless you happen to be a Palestinian obvs.
Anyway, people have higher standards for Biden and THEY SHOULD.
He is too old to run, but he was able to form coherent sentences last night, and Biden couldn’t. Biden lost that debate. HARD. I wish he hadn’t, but he did, and pretending that he didn’t isn’t helping anybody.
The problem is that people are judging who “won” the debate by how confident the candidate sounded rather than, you know, how batshit crazy their positions are (Trump) versus how relatively normal their positions are (Biden).
Winning a debate isn’t about who’s position you agree with, it’s about who can create a better argument for their position. I 100% support Biden’s position on abortion over Trump’s, but I have no idea what Biden was trying to say about the 3 times of Roe v. Wade, while Trump’s position (that it should be decided by state law) was completely clear. He also threw in a bunch of lies about how it was an unpopular Supreme Court decision (it was actually a pretty uncontroversial decision I’m 1973), but I understood what he was saying.
I still don’t how you could say Trump presented better arguments for anything. He lives and dies by the non-sequitur. He does, however, project 100% confidence in anything he says. He is a man of confidence. A confidence man.
This is not what I’m saying, this is by far the overwhelming consensus. If you think they did equally bad, fine, but the majority of people did not see it that way. This isn’t just leftists or MAGA shitting on Biden, here’s centrist Democrat Claire McCaskill on Rachel Maddow openly questioning whether or not Biden will be forced off the ticket after this performance.
That video says nothing about the actual content of the debate and who “won”. It’s just saying that Biden was low energy and occasionally incoherent, which I think everyone can agree on. And it’s dangerous because that’s what Republicans have been hammering on since before the last election.
I didn’t see the debate, but calling Trump coherent under any circumstances is very generous. He just spews word salad and bullshit with no regard to the topic he’s supposed to be addressing.
You should go ahead and watch the debate and then get back to us.
People would start talking about it if Biden stepped down and the Dems put up someone under 70. But since we’re comparing him to Joe those sort of critiques don’t hold as much weight.
Thanks for illustrating my point by spewing anti-Biden bullshit while giving Trump a free pass for bent a dottering old moron.
I tried convincing trump voters hes shit long ago, but every conservative community immediately bans me.
- They do, but it’s always coupled with a mention of Biden as part of a “both sides” argument
- Biden’s age is the most problematic thing about his candidacy. For Trump, it’s the least because it’s overshadowed by so. many. other. problems that are so much worse (being a treasonous fascist, for example).
Because it’s far down on the list of reasons he shouldn’t be president.
Fucking exactly, amen. Biden couldn’t make any sense. Trump should be in jail, and Biden needs to be replaced on the dem ticket asap.
Gaslighting the public in to maintaining the status quo for the rich and powerful…
E: and before the die hard liberals descend on me and accuse me of being a trump supporter because they can only see the world in blue or red - the alternative being worse doesn’t make your guy any good (nor did I mention the word “vote” - or don’t - once), it only proves that the system is rigged to never serve you. Now if only you were willing to confront this admittedly uncomfortable fact and move on from the fairy tale you’ve been sold, we might actually get some progress instead of treading water by “reducing harm” (all the while harm is not actually being reduced, we’re just being held hostage in exchange for it theoretically not getting worse)
It’s been obvious for a long time and the lies just kept going. Now, instead of eating shit, they’re changing the narrative. If you see through it, though, welcome to Moscow, comrade!
They did hold primaries. It just was not as showy as the republican one.
No they didn’t. There were no debates. Alternative candidates were kept off the ballot in multiple states. Florida and Delaware didn’t even hold votes. If this had happened in a foriegn country we’d be calling it autocracy.
FALSE. Biden was in trouble for a hot second. And trump was struggling against a young woman. You and the rest of these idiots complaining ONLY NOW WHEN IT’S TOO LATE about elected candidates just thought the trump trial was more entertaining at the time.
Everything I said is a fact, except for the last sentence, which is opinion. And if you think I just started complaining about Biden’s age and the lack of a Democratic primary, you’re welcome to go through my comment history and find out how spectacularly wrong you are.
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Looking at this objectively as an international, biden will lose and should step down
Go away Russian bot.
Hey, just thought you should know, Russian bots have successfully infiltrated and gained control over the New York Times
This is a hhill I’m willing to die on… Looking at his recent speeches what made you think “this guy’ll invigorate the nation”
Go huff your own farts russian bot
Do you know that a bot is?
Put the pizzagate down, russian bot.
I’ll take that as a no. Blocked then.
So having a very popular American opinion makes your a Russian bot now lol
You do realize he didn’t do well, right? This is having a huge influence on his electability. Especially because he has been hiding from cameras forever and things won’t get better for him
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Not voting is a no-brainer
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RBG, Feinstein, now Biden. Selfish geriatric boomers should learn when to retire.
most important thing is that he can still use his arm to sign legislation. that’s all you need him for. the actual deal is the cabinet. that’s what you’re voting for.
too bad most people don’t think about that, and fuck the dnc for putting the country in this situation.
…primaries where you get vote among these candidates. There were options.
In my state there were literally not other options. We had a single candidate primary.
Almost as if the DNC is not democratic and making sure to get their puppet in, instead of a leader.
idk how that’s relevant now
Just like complaining who’s running the parties isn’t relevant now. That’s the point.
i gotta admit that my brain is too small to comprehend your point
Sounds like a you problem then.
yeah definitely a me problem
This is a terrible sentiment. You need a team and you need someone to lead that team. Having the leader just be a puppet is terrible.
You’ll get a dysfunctional cabinet this way, you will get grifting, taking advantage of the puppet showing his face to bad ideas and you will get foreign influence prying on the weak puppet president.
And even if the president is not a puppet and “only weak”. We have a government falling apart and in deadlock because of our chancellor being a weak leader in Germany. The only thing holding them together at this point is the fear of them losing power sooner in an early election. All it does is give even further rise to the fascists.
You need a competent leader at the head of the cabinet. And that starts with her or him having their mental capacity.
oh you’re right. voting for biden may give rise to fascists… so we should let the actual fascists win instead. how have i never thought of this before‽
You let the Democrats gaslighting work on you. Since half a year they make us think, that the only two options are Trump and Biden, when in fact they could have allowed for proper primaries. They could have worked to prop up other candidates as viable alternatives. But they wanted the puppet they can control.
It is not too late to acknowledge Biden to be unfit and put up a different candidate. I have been advocating for this here since months. But instead of acknowledging that there is more real options, the DNC propaganda worked and works hard to limit our thinking to “its either one of them, no looking past the fishbowl”.
Biden was never voted because he was Biden. He was voted because he wasn’t Trump. Any halfway decent candidate that does not shares Bidens dogmatic support for genocide in Gaza and abusing immigrants can fill this role a hundred times better. Any such candidate could win the election in a landslide.
Pull the emergency brake on the Biden train. The Biden train is going into the abyss.
just tell us who you think people should vote for, instead of weaseling around it.
People should force the DNC to make primaries and have the people decide on a candidate.
they won’t, and that’s not an answer to my question
Then you vote third party and take the fight to the streets because you do not accept two genocidal mass murderers as legitimate options
Biden has been president for almost 4 years and we haven’t seen any of those things. That’s how I know all this FUD is overblown. The things you are describing were rampant under Trump, not Biden.
We should all be screaming at the top of our lungs for Biden to drop out now. Fast. Throw in Newsom or Whitmer. I’ll vote for either, doesn’t matter.
This is a no brainer, and no loss. Either they do it which would be great, or we’re stuck with biden anyway, who now looks to be much worse off against trump.
Everyone should be telling biden to drop out. Everyone everyone everyone. And loudly.
Sure, let’s all pretend the problem was his voice. Ignoring all problems will do wonders in november.
This whole night was so many layers of exhausting, but probably not for the reasons you think… No rational, serious person was expecting Biden to Willy Wonka front somersault into this debate? it was going to be what this was, the only true surprise was probably the volume of his voice (which they chalk up to a cold, okay fine, I guess) and actually how well he did quickly processing and responding to trump’s gish gallop and unchecked stream of consciousness mistruth firehose with little help from the impotent moderators for the majority of the night.
The people in this country, in their immediate reaction to this debate, demonstrate that they just fundamentally lack the focus, empathv and frankly basic intelligence to process the substance of this or any debate. On average, we respond solely to voice pitch, tonality, body language and facial expressions, like a still developing toddler… Or a dog.
Volume is a minor issue, the problem was the half finished thoughts and odd transitions between them.
It’s called watching the clock and getting flustered trying to not run over time.
It’s always fun when people suddenly forget that Biden has a stutter. I’m not even 40 and, perfectly healthy, sometimes can’t finish a fucking sentence and just move on to the next point. The only reason people don’t say I have dementia is because I don’t look old enough to hurl the accusation.
How many stuttering acting presidents do you remember?
Also Biden isn’t just having a stutter. It was clear he lost his train of thought multiple times, like destroying medicaid, constantly mixing thousands, millions, billions and trillions or his talk about abortion trimesters.
This sounded like they gave him elaborate sentences to remember beforehand and he butchered them all, because of not learning them by heart and not fully grasping what they actually mean.
Meanwhile Trump was just doing Trump and Biden came wholly unprepared for that. Repeating what Trump said with “the idea that … is ridiculous” is just repeating what he said, further giving it agency. How could they be unprepared for Trump being Trump after 8 years of him already?
Elaborate on “trump doing trump”?
“We had the best administration ever.” “The economy was great. He destroyed it all.” “We have the worst economy now.” “He is the worst president.” “We will make America great again.” “It is the millions of immigrants.”
It is the exact same rhetoric like in 2016 and 2020 and during all of his presidency. Trump is the greatest the others are the worst, blame the immigrants and claim the other side to be unpatriotic.
Trump was sometimes even addressing Biden directly with “Joe what are you doing?”. And in the end the only topic were Biden sought the confrontation was on who of them is the better golfer, which only made him look more detached from the people. He would have needed to attack Trump, provoke him, expose his lies in a way where he is stumbling over his contradictions. If he was rhetorically smart about it, Biden could have overplayed his poor health.
Sounds like you’ve never socialized with others who have a stutter. Instead of understanding how different mental/physical impairments affect people, you’d rather just make assumptions and baseless claims that confirm your own biases. Biden’s stutter is a well documented ailment that has affected him, in similar ways, for a long time - we just got to see it when he was clearly under the weather.
You can factually disagree with Biden’s policies, but to create this elaborate scenario out of whole cloth and purposely ignore Trump’s own verbal missteps just tells all of us all we need to know about why you commented.
What are you talking about? There is certain demands to the health, to the intelligence, to the eloquence and charisma of a president. Biden showed little of it in the debate.
If he has a stutter, which i don’t remember seeing in press conferences a few years back, then it got much worse on the one hand and the strategy for what to say and what not to say on the other hand failed tremendously.
I know one thing about stutters though. How strongly it shows is often directly related to how nervous, scared, agitated or stressed someone is. If Biden is emotionally troubled with dealing with Trump like this, to make his stutter show this extremely, then i don’t want him to be in a room with leaders like Putin or Xi, who will just eat him alive.
It showed that Biden is an old men with declining physical and mental health. Anyone watching him in this debate and the many occasions in the last year where he was blitzed out, recognizes that.
Biden is unfit for office. Trump is unfit for office. Anyone riding the Biden train now and blocking the pulling of the emergency brakes is riding this train into the abyss. And that is what helps Trump and the Reps the most.
Elections are all about optics, and the optics are he might not even make it to the general election, let alone the following 4 years if elected. The populace is starting to wonder how much Biden is just a real life Weekend at Bernies now where they really weren’t before.
It’s called dementia
Thankfully that’s only a problem for one of the candidates, right? Right?
Oh no, definitely both of them suck, and both are showing cognitive decline. Biden is just showing it worse. Or maybe it’s just that Trump has always been a rambling moron, so it’s harder to tell if he’s having a senior moment or just being himself.
Either way, Trump’s supporters are too stupid to care or even notice his mental health. Half of them probably don’t even believe in mental health. The people Biden needs to vote for him do notice and care though. It’s just a fact of life, and the DNC really needs to come to terms with reality.
I guess from that point of view it really is only a problem for one of the candidates.
For what it’s worth, watch a video of Trump after 9/11. He was still a narcissistic ass, but he was far more cogent.
Not really. I’ve had some close family get dementia, it doesn’t look like that. If Biden had dementia, there is 0 chance they would have stood him up for a debate. It’s really a condition called “fucking old”.
This definitely is dementia. I know it from my own family. Especially with people having good days and bad days. The talk now about how Biden just had a bad day, is just reinforcing it.
Trump was showing what it looks like to “just be” “fucking old”. Probably by the time he is Bidens age he will be equally far demented, but he is three years younger. There is absolutely no way that Biden won’t be a complete vegetable in the last year of the upcoming term and for Trump it is a pretty solid risk.
The DNC needs to switch out Biden now. They should have done it many months ago, but the denial and delusion about Bidens health are going to help make Trump win this one.
You know the moderators are there to enforce the rules of the debate, right? They aren’t live fact checkers. Their job is to manage clocks, present questions, and occasionally, ask a followup question, not to defend one particular position or person.
Strawman, nobody is arguing the point you’re trying to make about the moderators themselves? I’m citing CNN as host and moderator, their anchors are just deaf weight seat filters under strict orders from zaslov and the billionaire.
They are saying that the network that wraps and produces the entire thing should have done it with a real time overlay graphic fed by a room of professional fact checkers working in real time to provide context (you did notice that the debate was coming into your living room through a magic plastic box and it was not actually a tiny window into a tiny room in your home that held two tiny old men inside arguing, right?)
This is extremely simple and completely necessary with trump - simple because he just repeats the same 5 lazy, limp lies, you wouldn’t even need to research in real time, just 5 big brightly colored buttons to press that display pre-written fact check graphics for each of those stale lies.
Imagine in your opinion though, a plain text box that says, "There is no support CNN has found for Mr. trump’s claim that ‘everyone in Mexico is a terrorist that is both murdering, and has just been murdered, at all times.’ is “defending one particular position or person”.
Child.
…how well he did quickly processing and responding to trump’s gish gallop and unchecked stream of consciousness mistruth firehose with little help from the impotent moderators
This ain’t you fam? Maybe read what you wrote before you accuse someone else of building a strawman.
Now take your shitty ad-hominems and fuck off.
He needs to withdraw. He has to. The man looks like he’s dying. It’s time to stop playing pretend. This is fucking stupid. He’s literally not physically capable of being president. He doesn’t just have a raspy voice, he rambles incoherently, he can barely seem to register what’s going on at any moment. He nods off in public. He’s ancient. He should be no where near a political office.
If he runs he’s handing Trump the presidency. And I don’t even fully believe he cares. If he cared he would never have run in the first place. He also chose to hammer home on his unending support for Israeli colonialism and crimes against humanity. Just to further aleniate the progressives and moderates who want him to stand up for human rights.
I have no faith in him to drive a car let alone handle the political office of the presidency. He could be a literal corpse and he’d still get my vote over Trump. But you’re asking people to vote for someone who is openly incapable of doing the job he’s campaigning for. He HAS to step down. He CANNOT defeat fascism. He is not capable of it and he is so chronically neoliberal that he cannot even create a strong opposition to fascism.
We’re all freaking the fuck out because this is the worst scenario. The one we ALL SAID WAS COMING. We were all told not to talk about how old he is Trump is old too and all that. And Trump absolutely is old but he’s a fascist for one and fascists vote differently than anyone else does. But much worse he always rambles incoherently so standing next to Joe he looked as he normally does and Biden was the one who had visibly aged.
Enough is enough is enough he has to go. Where is the real political effort to have him withdraw. The clock is ticking until November and he HAS TO GO.
