Do any of them know what the word “liberal” actually means?

  • Neato@ttrpg.network
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    6 months ago

    It has 2 common definitions:

    1. Neo-liberal: a political approach that favors free-market capitalism, deregulation, and reduction in government spending
    2. Leftism in general.

    You’re almost never going to hear the right-wing use #1. Authoritarian communists will use #1 as a catch-all for modern capitalism.

    • lugal@sopuli.xyz
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      6 months ago

      The US is such a right wing country that liberals are the mainstream left. In Europe, liberals are centrists and they aren’t further to the right than American libs.

      • Neato@ttrpg.network
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        6 months ago

        The meme says “American Republicans” so I thought we were considering this from an American pov. Definitions are going to change going to other countries and doubly so when talking about politics.

        • archomrade [he/him]@midwest.social
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          6 months ago

          It isn’t just about it meaning something else when ‘going to another country’. ‘Liberal’ has an actual definition with a history.

          I’m honestly kind of confused about american liberals digging their heals in on this definition when it has historically been taken to mean something they don’t seem to agree with anymore.

          • CileTheSane@lemmy.ca
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            6 months ago

            ‘Liberal’ has an actual definition with a history.

            The word “awful” has an actual definition with a history too. That history starts with it meaning “full of awe”
            https://www.etymonline.com/word/awful

            Word usage and definitions change over time. If you know people use a word differently then you need to at least explain the definition you are using or you’re just going to confuse or alienate people who understand the word differently.

            • archomrade [he/him]@midwest.social
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              6 months ago

              I’ll happily state my case for whatever usage I’m adopting, and ask for clarification when I suspect someone is operating on a different one, but I don’t see any case to be made for the vague american label when discussing anything beyond american electoral politics - for the same reason i’m happy to jab at the usage in the same context, because it’s the assumption of neutrality it asserts that I take issue with and am calling attention to.

        • lugal@sopuli.xyz
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          6 months ago

          But the definition doesn’t really change. Take universal healthcare. A liberal idea that’s considered common sense in Europe and left wing in the US. Obamacare would be something you expect from a center right European and a left American. Both are called liberal.

          And if the meme was from an exclusively American pov, it wouldn’t specify “American Republicans”

          • FozzyOsbourne@lemm.eeOP
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            6 months ago

            You’re correct, I specified “American republicans” to refer to the political party because everywhere else “republican” means anti-monarchist

        • lad@programming.dev
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          6 months ago

          Yeah, this is about as confusing as it gets, I feel like those labels rarely make much sense :(

    • archomrade [he/him]@midwest.social
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      6 months ago

      It’s extremely frustrating hearing this repeated so often here.

      It’s fine if this is the colloquial definition you’re used to hearing and using, but this is certainly not the way it’s used outside of American politics and pretending like it’s the only use comes off as both ill-informed and condescending.

      When used derisively from the left, rest assured it is not referring to either of your adopted generalizations but a very specific ideology.

      • thedirtyknapkin@lemmy.world
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        6 months ago

        ok, so among English speaking countries, how is it more often used? we’ve got multiple people in this thread aggressively telling him he’s wrong, but no other definitions.

        • archomrade [he/him]@midwest.social
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          6 months ago

          Like I said, it’s fine assuming your own definition if that’s the one most familiar to you, but that doesn’t mean you have to stubbornly double down on semantics when confronted with a competing definition. When used derisively from the left it is almost certainly being used in the original sense of the word as per John Locke

        • jaspersgroove@lemm.ee
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          6 months ago

          The definition I see most often used here on Lemmy is: Liberal - literally anybody who doesn’t have Xi Jinping’s and/or Vladimir Putin’s cock(s) alllllllll the way down their throat

      • CileTheSane@lemmy.ca
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        6 months ago

        pretending like it’s the only use comes off as both ill-informed and condescending.

        That works both ways. Pretending the European usage of the word is the only use comes off just as ill-informed and condescending.

        • archomrade [he/him]@midwest.social
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          6 months ago

          The people who are using liberal derisively are playing off the american liberal self-identity. They’re acknowledging both definitions in the jab.

    • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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      6 months ago

      Liberalism has never meant “leftism in general.” It has always been an ideology supporting the individual via private property rights. Neoliberalism is the modern form of it.

      Liberalism was considered left when feudalism was right, but liberalism has never meant leftism.