Seinfeld is very exceptional in that it was a show which featured unapologetically bad people, and glorified them, very effectively.
You can be extremely cynical in your scripting while still holding up characters who have some sort of moral center and are trying to do the right thing. Old-season Simpsons did this very well. The characters are not bad. They are not nice and they have genuine failings, and the situations they find themselves in are not sugarcoated. But, it’s still a show about trying to maintain your humanity, in a pretty realistic portrayal of the grim reality we all find ourselves in. The original “Arrested Development” is similar although a little more upper-class and light hearted.
Maybe I am a corny motherfucker but I do think that it’s important to try to keep your eye on doing the right thing instead of the wrong thing, because it’s real shit that every human being runs into and it’s definitely not easy. Art does influence the ways people behave and the way they perceive the world. Seinfeld is a show about absolute horrible sociopaths, who ruin relationships and other people’s lives over and over again because of their commitment to selfishness, and if you only look superficially, how relatable and fun and entertaining they can be to spend time with, and how easy it is to overlook what abominably bad people they are as long as it all seems fun.
Somewhere there is a video talking about how Jerry Seinfeld is actually one of the darkest comedians working. I don’t even know where I could start to find it, but the guy talks about watching a Seinfeld bit about throwing trash in the movie theater before he leaves for someone else to clean up, and how the guy watching got this chilling feeling he never got from much more serious topics: Like it’s not an act, he genuinely just feels nothing below surface level, and doesn’t give a fuck what happens.
Seinfeld is very exceptional in that it was a show which featured unapologetically bad people, and glorified them, very effectively.
I think that this contrasts rather heavily with It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia. I had a lot of trouble getting into the show because I thought that that was what they were doing. But, in reality, we’re NOT supposed to empathize with or relate to them. The Gang are unapologetically awful people who, despite never really getting what they deserve, cause nearly all of their own problems through their greed and selfishness (plus, Dennis is probably a serial killer).
Yeah I consistently find myself appreciating that show more and more. One of my favorite themes is with the recurring characters. Consistently if they give in to the gang’s bullshit like Cricket their life gets worse and worse, but if like Carmen they don’t their life gets better every time you see them.
And each of the characters seems to understand that the others suck. Like, Mac calls out Dennis and Dee’s rape. Everyone in the gang acknowledges that Charlie is a stalker and that Mac is a hypocrite. It’s a group of terrible people who push away everyone else so they keep coming back to each other.
My favorite episode is definitely the musical. It seems like the one time that The Gang (or most of them) aren’t trying to scheme and genuinely are doing their best. They just sabotage themselves because they’re all too selfish and stupid to not, even when they are trying.
I don’t think it’s either/or. IASIP is good because it both mocks the characters for being awful while simultaneously making you like and empathize with them. You can think someone is horrible and a human that deserves things at the same time. In fact I think what makes that show exceptional is exactly these two viewpoints having truth to them. It would’ve gotten old really fast to me if it was just laughing at assholes.
That’s fair. Like, the spiritual successor to Seinfeld, Always Sunny, is made by people who hate their characters as people. The show goes out of its way to explain to the audience that Dennis and Dee are both rapists because some of the audience didn’t see it. In Seinfeld I can absolutely imagine a scene in which the characters describe sexually violating someone and acting like the victim is overreacting, and the narrative treating that person like they might’ve overreacted. Things are left open to audience interpretation as they consistently act like everyday sociopaths
Seinfeld is very exceptional in that it was a show which featured unapologetically bad people, and glorified them, very effectively.
I think that’s more just the consequence of celebrity. They’re supposed to be normal New Yorkers, which is to say petty and superficial and cheap and rude. And that’s supposed to be a funny thing to watch.
But by the ninth season, you’ve developed a parasocial relationship with them. You find the petty rudeness and the stingy superficiality endearing. And they’ve been one-upping themselves for so long, a lot of it just looks absurd rather than obnoxious.
Somewhere there is a video talking about how Jerry Seinfeld is actually one of the darkest comedians working. I don’t even know where I could start to find it, but the guy talks about watching a Seinfeld bit about throwing trash in the movie theater before he leaves for someone else to clean up, and how the guy watching got this chilling feeling he never got from much more serious topics: Like it’s not an act, he genuinely just feels nothing below surface level, and doesn’t give a fuck what happens.
Go back and listen to “I’m Telling You For The Last Time”, the comedy album he put out right after the show rapped.
I think a lot of the show is Larry David’s own brand of cynical humor. But Seinfield was the perfect vehicle precisely because he’s just this soulless husk of a human being who has filled his emptiness with unlimited money.
I agree! I think just about anyone who has stupid amounts of money has no conscience, personally. Maybe Bill Gates a little. But I especially believe that Seinfeld was showing us who he really was during the whole show. Well maybe not the first year when he was relatively normal, but after success hit, I honestly think he just became a narcissist.
Nah, Bill Gates is just like the rest of them. He pushed for a Covid vaccine just so he could own it. The researchers didn’t want to profit from it and he shot that down. Check the Behind the Bastards episode on him.
But you have to look at it within the context of the time. At that point, even the horrible people had redeeming qualities. Archie Bunker was a right-wing racist, but his heart was often in the right place. Murphy Brown was horrible to her coworkers, but she fought for the right causes.
And then Seinfeld came out. Everyone in it was horrible. Irredeemably so. There was just nothing else like it at the time.
It also did some really interesting things in terms of experimentation with what you could do with a sitcom, like the episode that takes place entirely while they are waiting in a restaurant for Chinese takeout.
It’s a totally outdated concept now because it’s been done again and again, but it was pretty revolutionary at the time. Personally, I credit this to Larry David, not Jerry Seinfeld.
Seinfeld is very exceptional in that it was a show which featured unapologetically bad people, and glorified them, very effectively.
You can be extremely cynical in your scripting while still holding up characters who have some sort of moral center and are trying to do the right thing. Old-season Simpsons did this very well. The characters are not bad. They are not nice and they have genuine failings, and the situations they find themselves in are not sugarcoated. But, it’s still a show about trying to maintain your humanity, in a pretty realistic portrayal of the grim reality we all find ourselves in. The original “Arrested Development” is similar although a little more upper-class and light hearted.
Maybe I am a corny motherfucker but I do think that it’s important to try to keep your eye on doing the right thing instead of the wrong thing, because it’s real shit that every human being runs into and it’s definitely not easy. Art does influence the ways people behave and the way they perceive the world. Seinfeld is a show about absolute horrible sociopaths, who ruin relationships and other people’s lives over and over again because of their commitment to selfishness, and if you only look superficially, how relatable and fun and entertaining they can be to spend time with, and how easy it is to overlook what abominably bad people they are as long as it all seems fun.
Somewhere there is a video talking about how Jerry Seinfeld is actually one of the darkest comedians working. I don’t even know where I could start to find it, but the guy talks about watching a Seinfeld bit about throwing trash in the movie theater before he leaves for someone else to clean up, and how the guy watching got this chilling feeling he never got from much more serious topics: Like it’s not an act, he genuinely just feels nothing below surface level, and doesn’t give a fuck what happens.
I think that this contrasts rather heavily with It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia. I had a lot of trouble getting into the show because I thought that that was what they were doing. But, in reality, we’re NOT supposed to empathize with or relate to them. The Gang are unapologetically awful people who, despite never really getting what they deserve, cause nearly all of their own problems through their greed and selfishness (plus, Dennis is probably a serial killer).
Yeah I consistently find myself appreciating that show more and more. One of my favorite themes is with the recurring characters. Consistently if they give in to the gang’s bullshit like Cricket their life gets worse and worse, but if like Carmen they don’t their life gets better every time you see them.
And each of the characters seems to understand that the others suck. Like, Mac calls out Dennis and Dee’s rape. Everyone in the gang acknowledges that Charlie is a stalker and that Mac is a hypocrite. It’s a group of terrible people who push away everyone else so they keep coming back to each other.
My favorite episode is definitely the musical. It seems like the one time that The Gang (or most of them) aren’t trying to scheme and genuinely are doing their best. They just sabotage themselves because they’re all too selfish and stupid to not, even when they are trying.
I don’t think it’s either/or. IASIP is good because it both mocks the characters for being awful while simultaneously making you like and empathize with them. You can think someone is horrible and a human that deserves things at the same time. In fact I think what makes that show exceptional is exactly these two viewpoints having truth to them. It would’ve gotten old really fast to me if it was just laughing at assholes.
That’s fair. Like, the spiritual successor to Seinfeld, Always Sunny, is made by people who hate their characters as people. The show goes out of its way to explain to the audience that Dennis and Dee are both rapists because some of the audience didn’t see it. In Seinfeld I can absolutely imagine a scene in which the characters describe sexually violating someone and acting like the victim is overreacting, and the narrative treating that person like they might’ve overreacted. Things are left open to audience interpretation as they consistently act like everyday sociopaths
I think that’s more just the consequence of celebrity. They’re supposed to be normal New Yorkers, which is to say petty and superficial and cheap and rude. And that’s supposed to be a funny thing to watch.
But by the ninth season, you’ve developed a parasocial relationship with them. You find the petty rudeness and the stingy superficiality endearing. And they’ve been one-upping themselves for so long, a lot of it just looks absurd rather than obnoxious.
Go back and listen to “I’m Telling You For The Last Time”, the comedy album he put out right after the show rapped.
I think a lot of the show is Larry David’s own brand of cynical humor. But Seinfield was the perfect vehicle precisely because he’s just this soulless husk of a human being who has filled his emptiness with unlimited money.
If the last 2 decades had a tagline…
Found it on Reddit I think: https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/18oeiw/clip_from_jerry_seinfeld_standup_on_letterman_feb/
I agree! I think just about anyone who has stupid amounts of money has no conscience, personally. Maybe Bill Gates a little. But I especially believe that Seinfeld was showing us who he really was during the whole show. Well maybe not the first year when he was relatively normal, but after success hit, I honestly think he just became a narcissist.
Nah, Bill Gates is just like the rest of them. He pushed for a Covid vaccine just so he could own it. The researchers didn’t want to profit from it and he shot that down. Check the Behind the Bastards episode on him.
Ok cool didn’t know that.
And his wife bounced afrer Epstien news dropped.
Ooph, legit reddit vibes with that exchange, as I hadn’t seen BTB referenced on lemmy yet. I need to check out that episode too! Appreciate it
And listen to all of them laughing
“I’m a jackass who throws trash on the floor, hurrdedurr!”
But you have to look at it within the context of the time. At that point, even the horrible people had redeeming qualities. Archie Bunker was a right-wing racist, but his heart was often in the right place. Murphy Brown was horrible to her coworkers, but she fought for the right causes.
And then Seinfeld came out. Everyone in it was horrible. Irredeemably so. There was just nothing else like it at the time.
It also did some really interesting things in terms of experimentation with what you could do with a sitcom, like the episode that takes place entirely while they are waiting in a restaurant for Chinese takeout.
It’s a totally outdated concept now because it’s been done again and again, but it was pretty revolutionary at the time. Personally, I credit this to Larry David, not Jerry Seinfeld.