A top Hamas political official told The Associated Press the Islamic militant group is willing to agree to a truce of five years or more with Israel and that it would lay down its weapons and convert into a political party if an independent Palestinian state is established along pre-1967 borders.
That will never happen while Netanyahu and his regime are in power. And the only time steps were taken in that direction, the Israeli Prime Minister got assassinated.
Assassinated by hard line Israelis who refuse to accept any type of two states solution. I have always wondered if we would have seen a true two state solution if Yitzhak Rabin hadn’t been shot. I think it probably would have happened.
After reading his biography I fully believe that he could have created Middle East peace he could have been so fucking great he was a good man
The crazy thing is he wasn’t some flower in the hair, love and peace is all we need kind of guy. he was part of the IDF and fought in several of the early conflicts. Then once he entered politics he was the defense minister for 10 years. He had the makings of any hardliner. But he was a guy that believed that peace was the only way forward for a conflict. A soldier who knew war and knew peace was the better choice.
Yeah that’s the best part about it… I firmly believe he was the last chance
nor will the Hamas remain peaceful…
Considering they’re the only ones offering to lay down arms, I’d say they’re more likely to be peaceful than the IDF and Netanyahu, who are not making such an offer.
They also justified the terrorist attack on the 7th of october, welcomed the large attack on Israel, are not “ashamed to say that Israel has no place in their land and has to be removed” and “will do it again and again”.
So yeah they may lay their weapons down, but they never remain peaceful.
Source: https://news.yahoo.com/hamas-member-says-repeat-attacks-065643206.html?guccounter=1
Okay? I still only see one side saying they’re willing to lay down arms. “This will end when we get an independent state” vs. “this will end when you’re all dead?” The former seems more reasonable to me. Your mileage may vary.
Your mileage may vary.
It does. I agree that Netanyahu has to go and Palestine should have the chance to be independend, but the Hamas has also to be put down for good. With those terrorist fucks and their degenerated supporters, there will be no peace in the middle east.
How did ‘Al Qaeda has to be put down for good’ work out for the U.S.?
How did ‘Al Qaeda has to be put down for good’ work out for the U.S.?
Not that bad since Osama and Zawahiri are dead. Their last big terrorist attack against America was when, 2010? Against the west in general, in France 2015? Since then they pretty much done or in a clash with the Taliban. If we can do the same with the Hamas, I would call it a win.
Mission Accomplished! Haliburton won ^ every contract^
You can’t shoot an idea. The only way to kill Hamas for good would be genocide. Or actually solving the underlying problem with Palestine, and so starving them of redicalised recruits.
If Palestine wasn’t oppressed, no one would be joining Hamas and they would have no power. This is a problem Isreal created for themselves.
I recommend this video, it really shows how what Isreal calls peace is still so oppressive.
They shouldn’t be ashamed to say it. Israel has no place on their land and should be removed. We aren’t talking about mom and pop tourists but militants that are forcing people out of their homes and killing their children.
What the fuck are you smoking?
It’s pointless arguing this on Lemmy. Everyone here is convinced that the Islamic jihadists are oppressed and just want peace despite what they actually say and do.
I’m not saying that. You guys seem to think Arabs are born angry, though, and so can’t be dealt with just by not being consistently a bastard yourself.
Hey what’s your thoughts on manifest destiny? Just curious
Never heard of it
How do you feel about Irish independence then?
Removed by mod
They also justified the terrorist attack on the 7th of october, welcomed the large attack on Israel, are not “ashamed to say that Israel has no place in their land and has to be removed” and “will do it again and again”.
Now do Israel with the same energy.
I think Clinton may have been the last individual human that could have prevented catastrophe in Gaza. He should have capitilised on it and essentially refused to take no as an answer from Israel. Instead, he just kind of went “oh well”, and here we are.
or while the us is interested in maintaining their geopolitical presence in the region.
honestly i doubt it would be that easy at all.
Lmao, fuck this guy. He doesn’t give two fucks about Palestine or its people.
The fact that a large number of people in the West are denying this and portraying Hamas as freedom fighters is very worrying.
Well then who is Israel attacking? If Hamas is in Qatar?
You can’t be seriously asking this in good faith.
I would personally reject this deal.
The Palestinian people do not deserve to live under the rule of Hamas. In 19 years of living under Hamas, after all the money given to them by the US, France, the UK, Qatar, Iran, and even Israel, the only thing they built for the Palestinian people has been tunnels to commit terrorism from.
I would personally reject this deal.
The Palestinian people do not deserve to live under the rule of Hamas.
Instead, they deserve to live under the genocidal tyranny of Israel. Clearly that’s the much better choice.
Why do all of you message me specifically to use the same dishonest bad faith debate tactics?
The Israeli imposed closure on Gaza began in 1991, temporarily, becoming permanent in 1993. The barrier began around Gaza around 1972. After the ‘disengagement’ in 2007, this turned into a full blockade; where Israel has had control over the airspace, borders, and sea. Under the guise of ‘dual-use’ Israel has restricted food, allocating a minimum supply leading to over half of Gaza being food insecure; construction materials, medical supplies, and other basic necessities have also been restricted. This has been a deliberate tactic of De-development.
Gaza Policy Forum summary: Experts agree that Israel’s dual-use policy causes acute distress
Through 1993 Israel imposed a one-way system of tariffs and duties on the importation of goods through its borders; leaving Israel for Gaza, however, no tariffs or other regulations applied. Thus, for Israeli exports to Gaza, the Strip was treated as part of Israel; but for Gazan exports to Israel, the Strip was treated as a foreign entity subject to various “non-tariff barriers.” This placed Israel at a distinct advantage for trading and limited Gaza’s access to Israeli and foreign markets. Gazans had no recourse against such policies, being totally unable to protect themselves with tariffs or exchange rate controls. Thus, they had to pay more for highly protected Israeli products than they would if they had some control over their own economy. Such policies deprived the occupied territories of significant customs revenue, estimated at $118-$176 million in 1986. (Arguably, the economic terms of the Gaza—Jericho Agreement modify the situation only slightly.)
- page 240
In a report released in May 2015, the World Bank revealed that as a result of Israel’s blockade and OPE, Gaza’s manufacturing sector shrank by as much as 60 percent over eight years while real per capita income is 31 percent lower than it was 20 years ago. The report also stated that the blockade alone is responsible for a 50 percent decrease in Gaza’s GDP since 2007. Furthermore, OPE (com- bined with the tunnel closure) exacerbated an already grave situation by reducing Gaza’s economy by an additional $460 million.
- Page 402
The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-Development - Third Edition by Sara M. Roy
What specifically in this wall of text is a direct response to what I said?
All you said was complete stupidity. 19 years of rule under Hamas only produced terrorist tunnels?
All of that is a direct response to 30+ years of Israeli genocide.
Building tunnels as the sole piece of infrastructure for your people is the sole response to a 30 year genocide?
I don’t think that is true, and I don’t believe you think that is true either. It sounded good when you said it though, and I’m sure it felt even better.
the only thing they built for the Palestinian people has been tunnels to commit terrorism from.
I wasn’t the one who said that tunnels were the only thing they have done, that was literally you. But it’s also irrelevant because I wouldn’t expect any infrastructure works to be prioritised when a small country is under attack.
When the IRA demanded their land back, we were allowed to agree with their cause of no occupation without saying that their tactics of bombing trains was a good thing.
When the LTTE violently attacked Sri Lanka, people were allowed to feel for the ongoing Tamil persecution, without agreeing to the murdering.
Why can’t I say that Hamas is a product of its environment, caused by the pain that Israel creates while also saying that the actions of Hamas are terrible.
The money never made its way to the Palestinian people, is the point.
Where did it go?
They also do not deserve to live under an Israeli genocide.
I mean yeah, but why can’t we have a two state solution that gets rid of Hamas as a governing authority and also stops genocide?
The thing you will notice about these accounts is that they aren’t actually allowed to make unqualified anti-Hamas statements.
Because they almost certainly aren’t real accounts.
Everyone who thinks different than me are not human.
Clearly humans are operating the accounts, friend.
Are you being forced to jump to the defense of Pro-Hamas accounts, or is it a hobby?
Oh, it’s just that everyone that thinks different than you is under duress huh? Or paid? I guess I’m that case I don’t think you’re being vacuous.
I have probably 15 accounts in my inbox accusing me, an explicitly pro-Palestinian person, of being pro-genocide, because I have made anti-Hamas comments. You being one of them.
Perhaps you have a better explanation. Is the movement so full of idiots who can’t differentiate between Hamas and the Palestinian people, or is something else happening here? You tell me.
Hey it’s you again… Getting paid overtime this weekend I hope
Probably thr same rate as you. Though somebody told me they aren’t actually paying you, just offering vague promises of virgins in the afterlife.
Lol there is no afterlife my guy. So ain’t no promise of virgins is going to convince me to do anything.
Why would I want to fuck virgins anyway? I’d prefer the ladies be somewhat experienced… Otherwise it’s boring.
I wouldn’t accept payment for this, I have a real job that’s actually productive and makes peoples’ lives better in tangible ways. That’s enough for me. This is just bonus.
Maybe that’s just a “leftist” attitude that you can’t comprehend.
Are Pro-Hamas tankies actually part of the left though? I don’t know, man, so far I would say you are severely too rightwing for me.
After Ireland gained independence they fought a civil war. Same in countless outer places. The Greeks fought one while fighting for independence. I fully expect the Palestinians to do the same.
The thing is: the Israelis don’t get to decide any of this. That what independence from Israel means.
It said a free Palestinian State not Hamas rules
The Palestinian people do not deserve to live under the rule of Hamas. In 19 years of living under Hamas, after all the money given to them by the US, France, the UK, Qatar, Iran, and even Israel, the only thing they built for the Palestinian people has been tunnels to commit terrorism
An independent Palestinian state would give the Palestinian people a chance to throw off the yoke of Hamas.
I don’t believe that. Right wing fuckheads with weapons don’t generally give up their power, especially after they had already taken away the right to vote.
A lot of dead Palestinians will be on your hands if you are wrong here. The price of being wrong is too high for me to agree with you, though I wish I could.
I don’t believe that. Right wing fuckheads with weapons don’t generally give up their power, especially after they had already taken away the right to vote.
Man, if the choice is “right-wing fuckheads in a sovereign and potentially functional state” and “right-wing fuckheads in a Bantustan that’s currently being genocided by a foreign country, boosting the popularity of said right-wing fuckheads”, I think the choice is obvious.
I’m not personally willing to settle for a choice between genocides Palestinians or Jews, and with Hamas in power, you are going to get both.
If Hamas wants to prove me wrong, and responsibly lead their people, maybe their political apparatus should stop being cowards, leave their Qatari skyscraper, and return to Palestine, and prove they want the responsibility of leading a nation.
They don’t want that. Stop taking terrorists at their word just because they are the underdog.
I’m not personally willing to settle for a choice between genocides Palestinians or Jews, and with Hamas in power, you are going to get both.
Hamas doesn’t have the power to carry out the genocide they want to. Israel does.
They don’t want that. Stop taking terrorists at their word just because they are the underdog.
Fuck man, I’m anything but pro-Hamas. I don’t think they’re making this offer in good faith, and even if they were, there are certainly more resolutions to pick from. I’m just pointing out that between the current state of affairs and a bad peace, the bad peace is preferable.
So if the Hamas terrorists are in Qatar why is Israel bombing Palestine
I ask myself the same thing.
Right-wing fuck heads with weapons? You mean like israel? And you say the price of being wrong is too high for you to agree with someone… there is no price for you!!! You live in comfort, not being bombed everyday. You’re an armchair critic who pays not 1 ounce of a price for your dumb opinion.
The price is more dead Palestinians and Jews.
And no offense, but you aren’t paying that cost either. Doesn’t mean we deny the cost will be paid.
I mean there are literally almost no more Palestinians alive on Earth anymore but go off
Hamas has been given millions of dollars by Israel over the years while any other potential political group has been surpressed. Without Israel they may actually have a chance at forming alternative groups. There is already the blood of nearly 40,000 Palestinians on our hands.
You might have blood on your hands, but I don’t.
You mean to fight the occupation?
…can you be more clear about what your comment means in reference to what I said?
Probably, but they don’t deserve to live under Israel either, and one of those is much more effective at killing them all.
Two state solution has to be the way to go, after that the people can have a Palestinian Spring if they want and overthrow Hamas, but whoever comes after is likely not going to be much better. They never are.
Yes, a two state solution is the only viable option. The problem is that Palestine never agrees to any of them. They won’t this time either. As far as Hamas is concerned they’ll only accept it if Tel Aviv is part of the independent Palestine. They regard the whole area as Palestine.
The guy in the op is literally talking about the 1967 green line.
Ahh yes. Reject the deal, continue the starvation and murder of thousands and thousands of Palestinians by Israel. Because what would be more liberating than being murdered?
I see statements like “Free Gaza from Hamas” to justify the continued genocide. It is no suprise, given that the Nazis wrote “Arbeit macht frei”. “Work makes free”,
Twisting genocide into claiming it to be a liberation of the people they are genociding. Now i am not sure, if you belong to these bad faith people, but if you wonder, why you are getting backlash, it is because your statement seems to be advocating for that.
Why do you automatically assume somebody who is anti-Hamas is pro-war?
Probably so you have an excuse to call people Nazis.
I won’t be engaging with that nonsense. You can message again with an intent of more respectful dialog or you can be blocked.
If you are not arguing in bad faith, then you should acknowledge the consequences and the context of “not taking a deal from Hamas”. And these consequences are continued death and destruction. You didn’t address that context. Which is why i provided the context of these kind of statements by people using these stances in bad faith.
The Palestinian people do not deserve to live under the rule of Hamas
Depends. Does conversion to a political party imply free elections and opposition parties to exist?
No, obviously Hamas would not take a deal that is conditional upon [the UN?] removing them from power and holding elections.
Not obviously. Hence my request for clarification.
Which terror groups that took full power restored the right to vote after having already stripped their people of that right?
A terror group with full power is no longer a terror group.
So… You concede that there are no terror orgs who have expanded the rights of the people they control?
The basis of your statement is nonsensical.
Terror organisations don’t control the rights of people. (If they did, then terrorism would not be needed)
Which is why they won’t be handed autonomy over Palestine.
Glad we are in agreement.
But are Hamas asking for autonomy over Palestine? Conversion to a political party doesn’t necessarily imply this.
I agree…but one thing at a time. When Palestine is free, then they can get rid of Hamas. But right now, they’re on the same team against Israel…against literal genocide. A violently oppressive fundamentalist government is obviously something to shed when you have a state to expel them from. But they’re living under the worst case scenario right now. Hamas is their only defense at the moment against genocidal colonialist state. Fighting a battle on two fronts is a recipe for complete destruction.
Before people go off about them being evil, how much worse would it be if you tried? If it fails you’re just back in the same place. If it works then you have peace.
Before people go off about them being evil, how much worse would it be if you tried? If it fails you’re just back in the same place.
Alright, while on a moral level this offer would be definitely the right thing to accept (ASSUMING complete good faith), it could be much, MUCH worse. Hamas has shown a willingness and ability to commit to large-scale attacks on Israel - considering the long, long history of antisemitic and genocidal rhetoric Hamas officials have engaged in, “Five years of not disrupting an enemy’s plans and organization” is a five-year recipe for an even-better coordinated and funded attack.
Follow the North Ireland model independent verification of compliance (on both sides).
The Hamas guy in the OP is literally talking about how they would lay down arms and become a party. IRA to Sinn Fein.
(Will there be splinter hardliners? Sure! There is a civil war at the end of Independence. But there is a promise of peace after the civil war.)
The Hamas guy in the OP is literally talking about how they would lay down arms and become a party. IRA to Sinn Fein.
Yes, like I said, assuming complete good faith. But even then, laying down their arms wouldn’t mean that fighters for their cause would no longer exist; it would simply mean that a better-organized Palestinian military would take its place.
My point isn’t “Five year truce bad”, it’s “Five year truce good but there ARE reasons to not accept it even from an abstract standpoint”
A better organized Palestinian military is a natural consequence of independence. And ideally yes, the best trained Hamas fighters will be joining it and be under government control, fighting against the hardliner splinters to enforce the hypothetical Independence Peace agreement, rather than being the hardliner splinters.
The road to peace will be very very messy. It is the bed Israel made and has to sleep on. The time when a relatively clean, peaceful transition to 2SS could have happened was right after Oslo. But here we are and it’s either a super messy transition to 2SS that will require nerves of steel to not intervene in the civil war, or a super messy transition transition to a democratic post-apartheid 1SS that will also require nerves of steel and a political and cultural transformation. Or … the ethnic cleansing, which hardliners in both Israel and Palestine dream of and we all dread.
hamas can’t commit large-scale attacks on israel… Nobody can… Does anybody remember the iron fucking Dome that they have? Nobody is attacking Israel it’s retarded to think that they are.
Peace means Israelis can’t steal land from people their government murdered.
Peace doesn’t sell arms (weapons)
If you consider that Hamas only exists to fight against Israeli oppression over an ineffective PA, it makes sense that if the oppression ends, Hamas becomes irrelevant.
It’s important to note that for most of its existence, “fighting against Israeli oppression” explicitly meant Israel no longer existing. This is the first time I can remember them even implying that they would accept a two state solution.
they accepted a two-state solution previously, the isreali PM that was negotiating with them at the time was assassinated.
Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by an Israeli law student who didn’t believe in the peace talks. Hamas didn’t even kill him, Israel did it. No fucking surprise there.
Hamas was also not in power back then, in no position to accept or reject any solution.
they accepted a two-state solution previously, the isreali PM that was negotiating with them at the time was assassinated.
That was Fatah, not Hamas. Hamas was irrelevant back in the 90s and didn’t rise to prominence until the mid-2000s.
Before 1948, Palestinian Leadership repeatedly advocated for a Unitary Binational State for decades: Palestinian Arab Congress advocating for Unified State 1928, Arab Higher Committee advocating for Unified State 1937, Arab League advocating for Unified State 1948
After the founding of Israel, the Two-State Solutions were utilized to further annex the Palestinian Occupied Territories and enact military control over Palestinians while denying them human and civil rights. This is apartheid. Despite this, both Fatah and Hamas have accepted a Two-State Solution on the 1967 borders, with the two most important factors being the Right of Return of Palestinian refugees and an end to the permanent occupation.
Oslo Accord Sources: MEE, NYT, Haaretz, AJ
History of peace process - The Intercept
The settlements represent land-grabbing, and land-grabbing and peace-making don’t go together, it is one or the other. By its actions, if not always in its rhetoric, Israel has opted for land-grabbing and as we speak Israel is expanding settlements. So, Israel has been systematically destroying the basis for a viable Palestinian state and this is the declared objective of the Likud and Netanyahu who used to pretend to accept a two-state solution. In the lead up to the last election, he said there will be no Palestinian state on his watch. The expansion of settlements and the wall mean that there cannot be a viable Palestinian state with territorial contiguity. The most that the Palestinians can hope for is Bantustans, a series of enclaves surrounded by Israeli settlements and Israeli military bases.
- Avi Shlaim
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
Well, they did fuck around and find out. Now they are facing an existential threat of their own and suddenly reasonable?
They said they would accept 1967 borders in their 2017 charter, so it’s been done before. It was also less antisemitic than their previous charter. I think they’re trying to be less extreme and more flexible to get more recruitment maybe, but that’s just my guess.
They’ve publicly held this position for nearly 20 years now. When they publicly adopted it and got elected as the new Palestinian Authority because of it, Israel immediately declared war and prevented them taking power.
That’s a chicken and egg problem, though, isn’t it: Netanyahu’s government wants Hamas because the conflict keeps Bibi out of prison, and Hamas wants to remain relevant. All the same, the Israeli and Palestinian people are the ones who suffer due to both regimes being in power, and Hamas doesn’t shed its guilt just because Israel doesn’t want a reasonable Palestinian government. Neither side wants to blink because they have multi-generational hatred for the other side, and that means popular support for further violence probably isn’t going anywhere. You back down! No, you back down!
The result is that neither side is going to take real steps to deescalate, because both sides benefit from the conflict. That the Palestinians are suffering more, by orders of magnitude, doesn’t make either side’s position any less entrenched: Bibi wants to stay in power (and free), and Hamas wants to remain relevant and in power, and they’re more justified now than ever. Both regimes need to be replaced.
The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: ‘The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.’
-Article 7 of Hamas’ founding charter
They were founded to kill Jews and push them out of Palestine. They’re not righteous freedom fighters.
“Oh Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, destroy the Americans and their supporters. Oh Allah, count them one by one, and kill them all, without leaving a single one.”
-prayer of Sheik Ahmad Bahr
They’re just as genocidal as Israel has been as of late, they just lack the same capability Israel does.
Hamas began twenty years into the occupation during the first Intifada, with the goal of ending the occupation. Collective punishment has been a deliberate Israeli tactic for decades with the Dahiya doctrine. Violence such as suicide bombings and rockets escalated in response to Israeli enforcement of the occupation and apartheid.
Hamas 1988 Charter and Revised 2017 Charter
The 1988 Charter, which is certainly unreasonable in its fundamentalism with Sharia Law and is antisemitic, does not call for the extermination of all Jewish People. Hamas wants an end to Israel as an Apartheid State, not an extermination of all Israelis. Under Ahmed Yassin in the 1990’s, truces were offered in exchange for Israeli to withdrawal from Gaza and the West Bank to the 1967 borders. The 2017 Revised charter explicitly accepts a Two-State Solution of the 1967 Borders. Check Article 7 and 13 of the 1988 Charter to see yourself, compare it to Article 20 and 24-26 in the revised charter.
The slogan From the River to the Sea is about Palestinian liberation that started in the 60s by the PLO for a democratic secular state, not Genocide. The Syrian leader Hafez al-Assad in 1966 maybe, but he’s not Palestinian.
History of Hamas supported by Netanyahu since 2012
No I don’t support Hamas as a ruling party, I want Palestinians to be able to have free fair elections.
Thanks for the links, I’ll give this a read later today.
I think that person you’re replying to’s point is they won’t be able to recruit at the same right without the huge group of angry, oppressed people that Israel keeps producing. They’ll wither away out off non-relevance.
Hamas has lied about peace and democracy in the past. They became the state of Palestine by winning an election in which they promised to stop attacks on civilians and be democratic, then refusing to hold an election for 2 decades.
Israel is a genocidal regime and needs to be stopped. But that doesn’t make Hamas the good guys. A long-term solution can’t include the current governments of either Israel or Palestine.
Hamas won an election in 2007, which no other country accepted the results of. Israel responded with a blockade. Not saying they’re the good guys but it’s not like it’s a level playing field.
What! They “won” an election that nobody outside HAMAS found legitimate??? And then the country they promise to exterminate reacted? No way!?!?!?!?
Don’t let facts get in your way:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election
International observers noted that the elections, for the most part, were conducted fairly and in accordance with international standards.
There were some reports of voter obstruction - caused by Israel.
Yes also don’t forget that Fatah immediately led a coup against them, with public support and arms from Israel and support from US.
Quite a long term they have, 17 years and counting.
I thought we don’t accept the results of the election?
Immediately after the election, Fatah, with US and Israeli support dismissed the Hamas government, which Hamas obviously disagreed with.
At this point there’s a stalemate where we (the West) and Fatah don’t recognize the Hamas government and Hamas can’t call an election because they have not officially governed.
Nothing is stopping them from holding another election. There’s clearly a desire for one, since Hamas has violently quelled dissent in the past.
The fact of the matter is that Hamas is looking out for Hamas, and that they haven’t held elections in 14 years heavily underscores that.
To be absolutely clear, Israel is still the greater evil here. But that doesn’t mean that Hamas isn’t an authoritarian dictatorship either.
HAMAS exists to exterminate Isreal and its inhabitants. Their offer is ‘free Palestine, let us be the dominant political party, and let us form and official national army, then we chill for 5 years! Don’t worry what we might do after that!’
Hamas isn’t going to just die out if they win. Isreal would be suicidal if they agreed to the ‘deal’.
Oke, and Israel exists to exterminate Palestinians and other arabs in their holy quest for greater Israel. Why is Israel continuing to settle the West Bank if Hamas is the big bad?
Hamas ran in the 2006 election under a completely different name, in an effort to demonstrate that they can in fact separate themselves from their militant faction.
Remember, Israel also had its origins in armed struggle (against the British).
Edit: although this is probably Israeli projection, given that the armed factions did become the Israeli military. And we all know what they’re up to.
Gotta love the wording in this article “Hamas, which is committed to the destruction of Israel…”
It’s because the “state” of Israel is inseparable from a military blockade that imposes a starvation regime and illegally settles lands in the West Bank in direct defiance of the UN. It’s like saying I’m committed to the destruction of the US because I’m committed to ending criminal wars of aggression, unconstitutional mass surveillance, and a prison system with 2 million residents.
“The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.”
Made up tripe should be treated as such, and people who believe in any kind of religious doctrine are delusion and deranged. We shouldn’t trust religious people with positions of authority or power, look at where this has gotten humanity.
Fully agree.
And to be crystal clear - that applies across all religions. It’s all bullshit and none of it should influence people in positions of power in any government.
“Best we can do is value menu holocaust.”
Even that they are failing hard at. Despite all the unimaginable cruelty and choicest Western weaponry, all they have succeeded in is causing utter destruction and wholesale slaughter; they have neither decisively defeated Hamas or broken the resolve of a people they have blockaded more or less since 1967. What a bunch of losers.
Two issues. The first is that they aren’t going to get pre-1967 borders. The larger more important point though is that Hamas just admitted they aren’t a legitimate government power and are actually terrorists instead. Own goal.
Terrorism is a verb.
Terrorists are people that commit terrorism.
Official count is now 42,000 dead Palestinians, but that is because the ability to count the dead no longer exists. The number is probably closer to 100,000
Israeli doctors have come forward to detail how amputations are regular for Palestinian prisoners who have been zip tied for months now.
Any definition of terrorism that includes Hamas, also includes the Israeli government.
Edit: recognizing your username, now is when you’ll call me antisemitic.
The number is probably closer to 100,000
Based on what exactly?
Based on time under starvation conditions, the mass graves the IDF seems constitutionally incapable of not leaving behind, and counts of missing family members.
It is interesting that Lemmy is so small that I can recognize the usernames of genocide defenders so easily.
Tell me: is there any line crossed, any action taken by the IDF that you wouldn’t automatically defend?
Do you think it is right that Palestinians prisoners should be zip tied long enough that their limbs die and need too be cut off?
Based on time under starvation conditions, the mass graves the IDF seems constitutionally incapable of not leaving behind, and counts of missing family members.
Can you share your methodology of calculating this number? You are not basing this on anything but your gut-feeling. Given how most of your comments consist of blindly parroting propaganda instead of even trying to form any in-depth understanding of this topic, that’s not surprising. Hell, you once attacked me for trying to bring nuance into this debate, at which point I was done with you for that day, because could there be anything more intellectually bankrupt?
is there any line crossed, any action taken by the IDF that you wouldn’t automatically defend?
Sure thing. If orders to deliberately exterminating Palestinians came to light, that would certainly be it. Those should exist if the goal of the IDF, as frequently claimed by people like you who make up fantasy numbers to then feel outraged about, was genocide. Of course, this clashes with various efforts of the same IDF to prevent Palestinian civilians from being harmed, which is kind of odd, don’t you think?
So either they are using e.g. roof knocking and a whole range of other warning measures just for PR-purposes (even though it significantly hurts their military efforts and their PR - Hamas can escape and the moment any building is being roof-knocked, dozens of cameras are immediately on it in order to film it, with lots of people feeling perfectly safe, trusting that this building and only this building will be hit; strange that) or the truth isn’t as simple as you are so desperately trying to make it be. You haven’t exactly been writing particularly well thought out comments on this topic at any point. Not that this limits your enthusiasm for your self-righteous preaching. Dunning, meet Kruger.
Do you think it is right that Palestinians prisoners should be zip tied long enough that their limbs die and need too be cut off?
No, but good job trying distracting from your fantasy numbers. This might constitute criminal neglect. Those responsible should be punished and measures should be undertaken to prevent this from occurring. While internal review processes are far from perfect at the IDF, they do at least exist and are being applied. Two senior officers responsible for ordering the recent air strikes on aid workers were sacked, for example. The same could happen here as well.
GAZA STRIP: Famine is imminent as 1.1 million people, half of Gaza, experience catastrophic food insecurity - Integrated Food Security Phase Classification (IPC)
Would you mind providing the source of this visualization so that I can read further into this? Thanks!
I get that this is the other side of the conflict, but this is a whataboutism. All of that which you wrote can be true without invalidating what the previous person wrote.
When one side is committing a genocide and intentionally killing children then maybe, just maybe, it’s important to call that out.
What the OP did was try to justify an ongoing genocide by calling the other side terrorists.
That is what you’re defending by calling responses to that as whataboutism. Good job.
One side? Both sides are doing this. The details are different, but both sides are being evil here.
Hamas did some war crimes by taking civilians as hostages, which is bad, and I condemn them. But they aren’t perpetrating a genocide like Israel is. It’s two very different scales of evil here, and it’s important to point that out.
What the OP did was try to justify an ongoing genocide by calling the other side terrorists.
I don’t believe that is what their comment was implying at all. Again, both things can be true. Hamas can be terrorists and Israel can be guilty of exceptionally disproportionate violence fueling an agenda of unforgivable genocide.
Reality doesn’t exist in black and white.
You’re at the very least anti-partsofspeech.
You just got downvoted for correctly realizing that terrorism is literally a noun. Strange times.
My comment was terrorismed.
I didn’t downvote you, but I didn’t understand your comment are all. But, I probably couldn’t diagram a sentence anymore.
But, at the risk of being stupid here, wouldn’t terrorist be the noun and terrorism the verb?
Terrorist is someone who uses violence against a civilian population to enact political change, and terrorism is the act of using violence against a civilian population to enact change?
Thanks for asking. I respect that.
Terrorism is a noun. It is the use or act of political violence to create fear in a populace. It’s a little tricky because those sound like doing something, which would be a verb. But we’re describing the thing those people are doing.
Terrorists do acts of terrorism. People do things. What do they do? They terrorize. They terrorized. They will terrorize. She terrorizes. That’s the verb.
Terroristic would be the adjective.
Huh, okay, I think I see where you are coming from.
The only issue I have with trouble with understanding is that I don’t think terrorism and terrorize can be considered the same word.
If I’m a terrorist, I do a terrorism, I don’t terrorize.
Similarly, I terrorize my cats when the get poop on a paw with water, but I don’t commit a terroristic act against them when I wash their feet
Of course, I think most of that comes from creaturely a poorly defined word with an amorphous meaning that is based off of, but isn’t, a similar word.
Terror may be a root word for terrorism, but I fell like the definition has changed enough that the conjugation is different
I honestly don’t understand how people who think this is easy can think math is hard.
Than you got your previous response, too. I did find out useful.
Edit: to be clear, I am fully aware I have no idea what I’m talking about here, language wise, so the above ‘I think I can see where you were coming from’ was meant more as a ‘I think I understand’
What’s the difference between terrorists and the resistance to an occupation?
I suspect you are not asking in good faith, but I’m answering anyway: Methods and goals. Hamas methods are clear: Legitimate resistance doesn’t deliberately and as a core policy murder, abduct and rape civilians. Hamas are no different from IS in this regard, which nobody calls resistance or freedom fighters.
Goals: Hamas actual and openly stated goal is the creation of a global Islamic caliphate and the murder and/or enslavement of all “nonbelievers”, not the liberation of the Palestinian people.
How many Palestinian prisoners do the IDF hold from the west bank?
How are they taken?
What level of evidence is required for them to be ‘arrested’?
Do they face the same legal processes as the Israeli ‘settlers’ when arrested?
What is the difference between the words ‘hostage’ and ‘prisoner’ to you?
How many Palestinian prisoners, including children, are reported raped each year in prison?
I’m all for the establishment of a free Palestinian state, but Hamas has to go.
Preferably through police action rather than the genocide that is a military intervention by Israel.
Anyway, the Israeli government is in the wrong on all the counts you raised, but Hamas still needs to go. They’ve been fully co-opted by all sorts of outside groups, and their rule in Gaza before October 7th was one of fear and oppression. They are no one’s saviors, they’re just the meanest bastards in the prison, lashing out at the guards while abusing the other prisoners.
The actual path to peace is a multinational police and peacekeeping force to come in and take over from the IDF, keeping the IDF out of it completely, and then opening up Gaza and the West Bank to the rest of the world. Possibly even ejecting the settlers from the West Bank and giving the land back.
But a large part of this would be arresting Hamas leadership.
And don’t think I’d let the IDF and Israeli government off scot-free for their part in all this. I’m sure there’s plenty of room in the local prisons for all the bastards in this mess.
The end goal might be a single, secular state, where all people are guaranteed full rights and protections by the government.
Well that’s a lie.
This seems to directly contradict the claims of the actual Hamas statements we are looking at right now.
Interesting that you can pick and choose which Hamas leader statements to believe in forming this narrative. Also, it is a little ironic that you claim others are engaging in bad faith while you manipulate which statements are valid from the same source.
The distinction comes from the ends they seek and the means they go about achieving those ends.
Oh Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, destroy the Americans and their supporters. Oh Allah, count them one by one, and kill them all, without leaving a single one.”
-prayer of Sheik Ahmad Bahr
I could easily get behind a platform that acknowledges that 7 million Jews now live in Israel and forcing them out (or even worse, killing them) would be a humanitarian catastrophe, but instead Hamas’ position is just as unyielding and genocidal as what Bibi’s admin has been waging upon the people of Gaza and the West Bank. They’re only now talking about laying down their arms because it benefits their attempts to paint themselves as the reasonable party in this conflict which I find to be a farce. More conflict and death benefits both Likud and Hamas.
A political organisation can have an armed wing but whatever.
Israel is a terrorist state
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The charter of Likud says
Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.
so let’s see if Israel chooses security or expansion this time. Every other time they have chosen expansion and a Greater Israel, but hopefully they choose peace this time.
sounds reasonable but on the other hand I wouldn’t trust that terrorist dipshit a second. The Hamas does not care about Palestine or it’s people…
So what’s the downside? If they break their promise you just end up in the same place you’re already in. Are you afraid there might actually be peace?
Can indepent mean independent from Hamas (which was basically crafted by Israel)?
According to the definitions of the words yes it can
Pre-1948 borders are the real solution for the Palestinians to have their own place. I support pre-1948 borders versus everything we are seeing today. People are behaving exactly like the people they feared and despised the most. It’s weird, but so are they.
Pre-1948 as in going back to the borders of the one state Mandatory Palestine? Any solution that entails the destruction of the state of Israel is dead in the water for the international community.
What the official is proposing here (two states) would be about the only way to peace.
I would be happy with Palestinians having equality
I don’t think they would, but I certainly support testing this claim.
dude LET’S GO
Pre 1967 borders.
Youd have better odds of me shitting out a herd of albino rabid kittens than Israel ever agreeing to those terms.
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sounds good
Update: it was rejected.
