I will vote for Biden if he ends his support for genocide. That’s it. That’s all I need to vote for him. I just want that one thing, even after he let me down by breaking the rail strike and continuing brutal anti-immigration and doing nothing abiut over policing and expanding American oil and stopping peace negotiations in Ukraine.
I voted for Biden to stop fascism and now he’s a genocide collaborator! Would Trump be worse? Maybe - it’s unclear, because at least Democrats would oppose Trump. Trump saw the largest protest movement in American history, Trump inspires Democrats to actually ask for more, Trump will further isolate America (and Israel) geopolitically, it’s hard to predict.
I’m not voting for him, I’m actually voting Democrat down ticket, but if he wins it’s not the end of the world. It’s an opportunity.
In the meantime? Withholding my vote is literally the only way I can exert pressure on Biden. I have a moral obligation to oppose genocide. I won’t vote for it. If he’s smart he’ll reverse course on Israel to save his campaign and this will all be moot. Why is Biden helping Trump win?
You don’t need to exert pressure on Biden. You need to help push the entire system back to the left. When Democrats in general are in government, it allows more room for further left candidates. Just like how electing Republicans made room for the Tea Party and the MAGA crazies. If the window had been more toward the left, they’d have been outside the Republican party.
I’m voting Democrat down ticket. I’m just not voting for genocide Joe.
That’s the only way I can exert any pressure on him, and I don’t have to wait a year for that pressure to manifest. If enough Democrats had the courage to stand up to Biden he’d be forced to change his policies. Instead, you are all choosing to be complicit in genocide.
Not voting is a valid choice, one that says you’re okay with either candidate winning. And that is being complicit with genocide. If you’re not okay with that, vote.
If you don’t want to wait a year, you can call, write, protest, and donate to groups to do those things on your behalf. But to throw away your vote is incredibly short-sighted.
As a non American, seeing people claim that not voting doesn’t help republicans is fucking hilarious. You’d think that after Trump winning in 2016 and stacking the supreme court, directly being the cause of abortion being outlawed in red states in the fucking 21st century (along with a host of other horrifying things), would make people actually fucking vote. But no here we are. Honestly I really hope you all get the government you want, but the longer I read politics posts on Lemmy the more I’m aghast at people who’d rather let it all burn down than aim for incremental positive change.
Apologies for any bad English, just putting my thoughts out there.
You’d think that after Trump winning in 2016 and stacking the supreme court, directly being the cause of abortion being outlawed in red states in the fucking 21st century (along with a host of other horrifying things), would make people actually fucking vote.
none of this has any bearing on whether voting for trump is the only way to help trump.
>Honestly I really hope you all get the government you want, but the longer I read politics posts on Lemmy the more I’m aghast at people who’d rather let it all burn down than aim for incremental positive change.
biden isn’t incremental positive change. he’s more of the same, and that’s exactly what got us trump in the first place.
Man these libs suuuuure hate when you question their doctrine huh?
Here’s a question for the one or two thinkers in this thread. I don’t want replies, because replies will carry with them egos and snark for the peanut gallery. These questions are for you, (and no-comprendo’s). Questions i had rolling around in my liberal brain before i transitioned to full troll or whatever liberals call leftists these days, questions that take time and reflection to answer.
If the Democrats only campaign to stop Republicans, but DON’T STOP the Republicans (only campaign to stop them), then when do we dem voters get to vote to help ourselves? Is there a timeline?
It has been 12 years of presidents, 12 long years of waiting, tightening our belts, “fighting for democracy”. Why does it seem like the voters are the only ones interested in preserving it?
The DGA and the HRC campaign both have paper trails showing they’ve attempted to elevate extremism in the Republican party. Considering this is still a tactic in use, here’s the million dollar question:
If the Democratic party could, would they keep running against a candidate like Trump every single election in the future?
Edit: thank you, those of you who are thinking. We need more people out there like you doing that
It has been 12 years of presidents, 12 long years of waiting, tightening our belts, “fighting for democracy”. Why does it seem like the voters are the only ones interested in preserving it?
So you were happy with first term Obama but not second term Obama?
Lol you’re right. I was on a roll and added a whole term, oops! Let’s pretend i meant to include bidens second term, which makes me right and not wrong
I wonder why republicans spend so much time trying to get people not to vote. Purging rolls, being against mail in voting, closing polling stations, etc. Seems dumb given that people not voting doesn’t help them.
Oh well. You probably know more about elections than them. Glad we have an expert in the house.
I think my meaning was quite clear. You are a fool if you think suppressing the vote doesn’t help republicans. They’ve bet everything knowing that people not voting is good for them.
So congrats, you are helping elect our new fascist overlords by not voting for the unpalatable, but not fascist, dude that is on offer. It sucks, but grow the fuck up. Trump winning is going to be a disaster for literally everyone, including Palestinians.
Great way to throw away a vote against fascism voting for candidates with literally zero chance of winning.
Look up why the Nazis came to power sometime. Part of it was that people refused to rally around a single countervailing force. Biden is the countervailing force that has a chance of winning. Trump is literally opening quoting Nazis at this point and people aren’t fucking alarmed. smh
With Biden, Democrats are mostly falling in line behind the genocide. It’s a bipartisan genocide, with even Bernie being unwilling to support a ceasefire. With Trump, on the other hand, Democrats would reverse course and actually support a ceasefire to obstruct Trump.
-but that’s all speculation. I don’t know, for sure, that it would happen that way. What I do know is I won’t vote for genocide, and I will withhold my vote unless Biden changes his policy on Israel. I won’t vote for Trump, I’ll even vote Dem down ticket, but I won’t vote for genocide.
You, on the other hand, are literally voting for genocide if you support Biden. You just want to absolve yourself of that moral responsibility.
By not voting for Democrats one of two things will happen: Most likely they’ll continue shifting right because that’s what all those pro-corporate pieces of shit want to do anyway. Or the party will finally move to the left. I really don’t care which way they go. But I’m done rewarding them for being obstructionists.
Well if trump wins, it’s fascism and genocide and climate apocalypse. If Joe wins, it’s genocide and climate apocalypse. Y’all need to fuckin rise up lol.
You just want to absolve yourself of that moral responsibility.
That’s exactly what you are doing. You’re focusing on this one issue, retreating yourself from the binary decision because neither options stands for what you (or I, or morality) would prefer. Completely ignoring that withdrawing from the choice plays into the hand of the infinitely worse candidate. So by not choosing, you do nothing to stop the situation in Gaza, but might actually make things a lot worse for people all over.
You can virtue signal that you did not compromise on your believes, while actually helping your country make a worse place.
We’ve raised lots of issues. The amounts of the stimulus checks, the way he fucked us over with the BBB, the way he negotiated down for student loan forgiveness, for fucking over the rail workers. The list goes on. Every time we mention something we get shut down. For someone who wants our votes so badly you have a really odd way of showing it.
I voted for Obama twice and Biden once. Call me whatever you want. At the end of the day, do you need my vote or not? If you want it I’ve given you the terms: don’t elect procorporate trash in the primaries.
Like I said, there are so many other issues that Biden has betrayed me on. This is just the red line. Here and no further.
You will let Biden do anything he wants to you and beg for more, just to stop Trump. It’s revolting.
If enough Democrats pressured Biden to endorse a ceasefire by withholding their votes, he would! He’s a politician. That’s what politicians do. This is our only leverage! This is all we can do to stop the genocide, and I really think Biden would reconsider if it looked bad enough.
I thank god I’m not this illiterate. What do you think Trump’s policy is gonna be? He caters to Republicans who WANT funding to Israel. He pushed the Overton window. What do you think he’s gonna do? Is he gonna weave them baskets and pick them flowers? 🤔
I think he’s going to be obstructed by Democrats, who I am voting for down ticket. I think he’s going to ruin Israel’s relations with the rest of the world and turn it into a pariah state. I think he’s going to overextend himself and fail. I think he’s a fat old man and might just die lol
We slide farther to the right with each passing year regardless of which party wins. You all seem fine with the direction so we’re just upping the timeline. If you want to go in a different direction tell Joe Biden to stop fucking over voters he’s depending on. And tell anyone who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries they’re a fucking asshole.
So you admit what you just said is a lie? You knew all along we didn’t have just one issue with Biden but you’re out here saying it because you’re a liar? Great. Glad we cleared that up.
Of course Biden wouldn’t be worse than Trump. I don’t care? You’ll have to do better than that if you want my vote. Millions of people had that opportunity in the 2020 primaries and they chose to vote for a procorporate piece of trash. Fuck those people. If they think they can ignore us in the primaries then we’ll ignore their shit candidate in the general. Don’t like it? That’s how democracy works.
You’re not voting for Biden? YOU’RE GETTING TRUMP.
You don’t get to pretend that not voting means you nothing will happen. Right now- you either drink the piss, or you eat the shit. You don’t get to chose neither.
Right, my choice was made for me by selfish pieces of shit in the 2020 primaries who chose a procorporate trash candidate. They can go fuck themselves.
Trump did say what he would have done, but given it’s Trump he’d probably not do what he said:
Trump criticized Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, lauded Hezbollah militants as “very smart” and sought political gain from the attacks that killed 1,200 people by claiming that if the last election was not “rigged,” he’d be the American president and they’d never have happened.
Yup. Ending genocide is not on the ballot. Keeping American democracy on life support is on the ballot. And if we lose it because of this childish bullshit, abstainers in 2023 are to blame. You’re as useless as the Dem voters we’re already desperately trying to activate off the couch. Worst part is you’re doing it on purpose. You’re voting for Trump. It doesn’t matter how you feel. This is a fact. We’re hanging on by a thread and you’re whining to your own comrades about your feelings and discomfort. Vote far left down ballot. Elect a democratic president. Otherwise fuck yourself, your words mean literally nothing when you’re hauled off to camp from your family or put on the wall. Thanks for your opinions.
Vote for this one person to save democracy or go fuck yourself.
Sounds like a really healthy democracy you’ve got there. 🙄
Anyway, the reason we’re in this position is because everyone who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries is a complete asshole who intentionally fucked over progressive and leftist efforts. Now they’re mad we won’t show up for him in the general? Get fucked.
Nobody is saying that we have a healthy democracy. In fact, just the opposite: they are pointing out that we do not and that is why we are on such thin ice.
And yet, when it came time to select the Democrat nominee millions of people were like “I know we’re on thin ice but I’m still going to vote for the procorporate trash candidate.”
People who voted for Biden in the primaries are fucking assholes.
Bernie was buy-and-large the most popular candidate in 2016. Mainstream media all but refused to put him on air(He was bad for business, i.e. for millionaires/billionaire executives). The DNC completely fucked us when they still elected to put Hillary on the ballot; even with the GOP colluding with the FBI to investigate her, whether or not that was legitimate is irrelevant. The DNC fucked us. And yet… Like others have said, our democracy is currently so fragile that we have no real other choice other than to vote D straight down the ballot.
The only other possible option would be for a major of the country to write-in the same person in the primary election and then for that person to register as an official candidate and then run in the general election and win. The vast majority of states require a candidate to be registered for them to be a write-in. And good fucking luck convincing a majority of this country to agree on one person. Personally, if that were to happen I would proudly write-in Jon Stewart.
Biden hasn’t been that bad. Not bad enough to risk never getting to vote again.
A) The incumbent party always runs the sitting president if they are eligible for another term. That’s not rigging, it’s literally how it works.
B) Yes, the DNC rigs the primaries. Did you already forget when the DNC forced Hillary on us in 2016? Hell, if you’re asking that question than you obviously already forgot 2016, so of course you don’t even remember 2020.
C) For someone with such strong opinions, you don’t seem to know much about the process. Seriously, is this your first time paying attention? Or is this your first time as an eligible voter?
Lol. Like all the bad loser pathetic whiney bitches who were big mad when we didn’t show up for Hillary? Stop voting for procorporate trash in the primaries.
It’s not my responsibility to propose a solution to prevent the end of democracy. It’s the responsibility of everyone who voted for Joe Biden in the 2020 primaries why they’re such pieces of shit.
If that’s true then the people who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries are absolute pieces of shit. Fuck them for fucking over progressive and leftist efforts.
You don’t even use logic. Those concepts have no relationship. You’re just an idiot with too much time online. You even go to DSA protests? Activism? You’re nothing.
I do not give a fuck. What are you not understanding here? What did you people not fucking get in 2016? Who the fuck thought it was a good idea to test us again by voting for Joe fucking Biden in the 2020 primaries. Fuck all of those people. They actively fought us and proved we’re not on the same side.
Wah wah wah wah this is hard and didn’t go my way so I’m gonna whine and fuck everyone even harder, my fellow victims included. So we should get sent to the fucking chamber and women made breeding machines bc you’re a whiney bitch. If you’re not gonna help, go get hit by a bus instead of bringing the rest of us down. You’re disgusting and sad.
Welcome to Democracy. You aren’t entitled to my vote. If you need it then make better choices in the primaries. If you don’t need my vote continue voting for procorporate trash and then crying when they lose in the general election.
“democracy is on life support”… yeah… didn’t say this was healthy. Thanks for demonstrating the problem with binary zero sum game thinking. You’re not grounded in reality if you can’t see we’re on life support. You don’t give a dying person meth and have them run a marathon. You hold on for dear life.
And fwiw wrt primaries… I voted against him. I voted against Hillary. I even voted against Pelosi for being too conservative. You’re fighting your comrades and the movement and that’s why you’re in the wrong and you don’t mean anything. Your politics and intellectualism mean nothing with the barrel of a gun between your eyes. Get your head out of your ass and vote against fascism. Or be a baby and have my friends and family killed in a few years. But I should get fucked. Thanks comrade. I’ll think about this comment looking out the window of the train at my kid for the last time. I’ll forever remember your vote, when I work to death in that mine, picturing my child screaming and crying the last time they see me.
You should’ve gotten your head out of your ass and voted for someone better in the 2020 primaries. You voted for Biden. I’m not responsible for how your garbage candidate performs in the general.
Also, I’m not voting for Trump! I’m even voting left down ballot, I’m just not voting for Biden specifically.
If Trump wins and Democrats control both chambers, what the hell can he even do? Bloviate? I guess maybe he’ll do some executive orders that the 6-3 Court will uphold, but if Democrats aren’t worthless cowards they’ll just refuse to enforce his orders and it won’t matter anyway.
There are so many issues that I oppose Biden on, this isn’t single issue. After betraying the railroad workers, after betraying migrants and refugees, after betraying over-policed and hyper-incarcerated minorities, how can I just accept yet another thing to hate about Biden? When will it end? I will not lay down and let him have his way with me because Trump is worse.
This is just the red line. Here and no further. If you let Biden do anything he wants to you and beg for more, why would he ever stop?
You do realize if Trump loses the Republican primaries you’re gonna have to come up with a brand new narrative to explain why we have to vote for Biden right?
Go ahead and list the issues you have with Biden that would be worse than the issues you’d have with Trump. Keep in mind, that the orange-utan has threatened to use the military once in power to keep people like you in line. Also worth mentioning, he plans on strengthening the abortion ban, more oppression of the LGBTQ+ and withdrawing from climate agreements.
So please. Enlighten us on how your single-issue is worse than dealing with a tyrant.
You can accept the truth of this, or you can pout and hold on to your vote, but I’ll warn you than the latter is a vote for Trump no matter how you try and justify it.
So please. Enlighten us on how your single-issue is worse than dealing with a tyrant.
We’ve raised a lot of issues with Biden. You just haven’t been paying attention.
Do the right thing.
Millions of people had the opportunity to do the right thing in the 2020 primaries and instead they voted for procorporate trash Joe Biden. Fuck those people.
Go ahead and list the issues you have with Biden that would be worse than the issues you’d have with Trump. Keep in mind, that the orange-utan has threatened to use the military once in power to keep people like you in line. Also worth mentioning, he plans on strengthening the abortion ban, more oppression of the LGBTQ+ and withdrawing from climate agreements.
Know what? Nevermind. I don’t want to hear from you anymore.
Look at this closely people.This is the misinformation campaign for the election.
Both sides support this war, this stance that a republican would do anything different is laughable.
This is the rhetoric that will be blasted all around social media creating a bullshit narrative of a rational liberal “taking the high ground” and encouraging others to follow by voting blue for everyone but Joe Biden.
I’ve been seeing a lot of this lately and I agree, it definitely feels like an astroturf campaign.
Most single issue voters are focused on domestic issues such as abortion or the economy. And you would think that someone who cares so much about Israel would also be worried about other aspects of foreign policy such as Ukraine.
The whole premise is ridiculous. And I think it speaks to Biden’s success as a president that this is the best campaign they can come up with.
Look at this closely people.This is the misinformation campaign for the election.
I dunno, is it that crazy to think the venn diagram of liberal voters and people that hate genocide are a near-perfect circle?
Biden doing an end-around Congress to send more weapons, while we can all see how they are being used seems like a misinformation campaign?
Frankly, why would voicing distaste for Biden or ones intention not to vote for him cause people to do the same??
Like are you changing your mind right now? Of course not. A passionate person such as yourself should be even more determined to vote for Biden knowing i will not.
I hate the bullshit shutdown tactic of calling an opinion an astroturf campaign.
It’s meant to keep voting democrats that are on the fence at home.
It’s not just voicing distaste, it’s providing a rational justification to this voter pool which appeals to a “morality of the left” mindset of not voting for a candidate because of singular issues even though the totality of the candidate is much better than the alternative.
It’s also providing a bad-faith argument. Another Trump presidency would completely back this and potentially fuel an internal racial cleansing once the cult gets new talking points on who the bad people are.
It’s meant to keep voting democrats that are on the fence at home.
Meant? My comments are 'meant to do something? This just sounds goofy. Who actually thinks this way except pollsters and astroturfers? I have opinions, wrong and right, i share all of them on the Internet.
it’s providing a rational justification to this voter pool which appeals to a “morality of the left” mindset
I want to talk to you more deeply about this. Do you believe other people on lemmy are so credulous and yet so uninformed, so lacking in morality that reading about my opinion on it will sway them? These people are also voters that definitely vote normally, but are also so easy to manipulate that my words make them stop?
It’s also providing a bad-faith argument. Another Trump presidency would completely…
Stop.
A bad faith argument would be to say that there are only 2 choices, but that really there is only one choice.
That any argument against your belief is astroturf or a lie to help the opposition.
That states a guess of what the other candidate would have done as fact.
Who out of the two of us has done these things?
Vote Biden! Vote hard, cuz i won’t. You, in the meantime need to stop talking, you do more harm than good to your cause.
Do you believe other people reading about my opinion will sway them?
Yes I believe that there are people who will make decision opinion based on the social media discourse they read in the coming months. I would estimate its 15% of the voting population.
A bad faith argument would be to say that there are only 2 choices, but that really there is only one choice.
It is a bad faith argument because regardless of who is president, American Congressional support for Israel will continue. The original poster implied that by not voting, genocide would be avoided.
Vote hard cuz I won’t
Cool, if you’re not voting your opinion doesn’t matter.
It matters enough for you to write a point-for-pointer debunking it, tho. I wonder why
Your thoughtless disrespect, misrepresenting of op’s position, and besmirching the intelligence of your fellow voters notwithstanding, the time you spent on your opus makes me happy, believe it or not.
Okay, then by that logic, why is Biden helping Trump get elected by playing into this strategy?
Like I said, Biden has betrayed me over and over, but like a beaten dog I will crawl back to him if he just does this one thing. That’s all I’m asking for. It would be so easy for Biden to get my vote. It’s entirely in his hands. Yet he won’t do it. Why? Why is he determined to help Trump win?
The outcome will not change regardless of who is President because Congress is beholden to the defense industry and will always support selling weapons.
So no one is helping anyone win because the outcome is the same. If this is your true opinion, get your head out of your ass and see the big picture. Otherwise, fuck you for trying to spread facism.
I still think you’re wrong, I think Biden can be forced to endorse a ceasefire because politicians actually do care about elections. Right now the Biden team believes that Democrats are loyal to the core and can be counted to vote blue no matter who, there’s zero incentive to endorse a ceasefire. Why bother? He can do anything he wants to you and you’ll still vote for him. They’ve basically said as much.
And do you realize what that does? That’s not a “single issue”. Biden broke the railroad strike. Biden approved the Willow oil and gas pipeline project. Biden has fought to keep Trump’s COVID border policies, despite basically giving up entirely on controlling the spread of the virus otherwise. Biden allowed Manchin to stonewall almost everything when there was a huge Democratic majority.
By voting blue no matter who, you have enabled Biden to completely ignore the demands of his own base. You’re enabling genocide.
The outcome will not change regardless of who is President because Congress is beholden to the defense industry and will always support selling weapons.
Sounds like Democracy is already broken then. Remind me what I’m supposed to be defending here?
A fascist regime today is better than one tomorrow. You people have no idea how to change trajectory here you just tell us to keep kicking the can as the country slides to the right. It’s pathetic.
You can construct whatever ethics puzzles you want to absolve yourself of guilt, but you are literally voting for genocide. I’m not.
This is our only leverage, and if enough of us made it clear to Biden that he will lose then he would change his policies. This is the only power we have and we have a moral obligation to use it. Instead of cowardly voting for genocide, force Biden to the left like y’all promised.
I can’t imagine being this dense, wow. Trump would be so obviously worse but you pretend to care about Biden instead. It’s all so fake, nobody is going to give you virtue points when democracy dies.
They’re fascist trolls trying to push leftists away from viable candidates. I see queermunist and go_go_gadget all over the place and they’re always spouting this same shit. I guarantee if Bernie or some other progressive candidate began to seriously pick up steam they’d immediately pivot and make up some shit like “Warcrime Stein” or “Brutality Bernie”.
This is such a bizarre argument to make in the context of supposedly saving Democracy. Being morally obligated to vote for one person I despise isn’t Democratic. Sorry to burst your bubble.
Ending genocide isn’t on the ballot this year, Trump is. Your choices are between probably more genocide if you don’t vote for Biden and possibly less genocide if you do vote for Biden. It’s really that simple.
Yes, we live in America and don’t get to vote on those sorts of things generally. The choices available are shitty and limited, if you haven’t figured that out yet I’ve got some terrible news because that’s how it works here. You can vote for the lesser evil and hope to move things in a better direction, or you can empower Trump and pretty much guarantee the horrorshow will be intensified.
I won’t vote for evil at all. Not if it means this. I’ve voted that way, (lesser evil) in hopes that i could do like you said, but it didn’t pan out that way in the 25 voting years I’ve experienced. The (quite likely) fact you have closer to that many total years as i have voting years, and that I’ve been a political hobbyist for most of those means your attempt at dismissal is a sloppy one.
Your judgment is not good then, I’ve been a voter for a bit longer than you. I don’t think you really have a choice in “voting for evil”, not voting or throwing your vote away on a third party is just as much a vote for evil as directly voting for Trump because it still serves to empower Trump and the GOP.
You’re basically saying you’re “moral purity” is more important than the people who will be directly impacted by a trump presidency. When trump decides to, or more accurately motivate others to, “purify” this country of it’s queers, Jews, and brown people my wife and I will have people like you to thank, who’s moral purity was somehow more important than my life. Your decision isn’t moral, it’s evil.
Would you like to discuss why what your said is not a strawman?
i imagine you understand what one is. You ostensibly have fingers, so you can Google it, and i imagine also that you have eyes, and therefore some understanding that what you have said has already been said, and said better, then you, just now.
Still here? Considering both of these points (and the implicit understanding between us that you also have a brain), what on gods green earth did you smoke that made you think this opinion was worth sharing with me?
Because you can’t possibly think you’d convince me with your ignorant, late, copy-cat finger-wagging.
Gosh. Letting out my frustration on you felt good. That probably wasn’t your intent though. What on earth were you attenpting to do?
No one replies to your moronic comments hoping to change your mind, it’s for anyone else who is impressionable that might find some twisted logic in your confused hogwash.
Ah! So it was for the peanut gallery. I hope you don’t take as much damage next time you take a bullet for the poor impressionable lurkers in future threads. I wonder if they will also witness your winning an argument you made up?
Are you the type who needs the last word? Please be my guest, hero.
Well, we made it pretty clear we were fed up with procorporate trash candidates in 2016. But then a bunch of pieces of shit decided they were voting for Biden in the 2020 primaries. We gave him a chance and he fucking blew it. Fuck Joe Biden and fuck everyone who voted for him in the primaries.
The few people on the Internet that read this or feel like you. Grow up. You’re not changing anything. You’re electing Trump. I’ve heard this bullshit for over 20 years and it’s been a slippery fucking slope.
They really do come across as naive children, the people who espouse this kind of belief. Demonstrating a lack of awareness of how complicated global politics are while also demonstrating a lack of awareness of how, in some ways, simple American politics are. They remind me of myself as a high schooler, all full of righteous indignation and hope for change without understanding how things work.
There will only be two choices for president, no matter how much we may want it to be otherwise or pretend that it could be otherwise. That will remain the case until we can get rid of first past the post and no amount of protesting is going to change that. If you truly want a third party candidate, your focus should be on getting rid of first pass the post. Until then, we only have two options.
Yes, that does mean our democracy is broken. No, that doesn’t mean it’s unsalvageable. And as I said above, a broken democracy is better than a fascist regime.
That’s the absolute worst part bc at that age I’d say shit like “well maybe they have to sacrifice their kids for there to even be a fucking future!” and thinking that’s reasonable. Getting older, and enough dystopian media about hard choices, I’ve learned to ask “why” a lot more and remember… What are we fighting for in the first place if we lose ourselves along the way? But yeah… You couldn’t change my mind then, even if I couldn’t see a Nazi on my doorstep like this. Very scary to be naive.
No matter how much people vote against Biden, that won’t end the genocide. Regardless of the fact that Trump would carry it out probably more enthusiastically, neither of them have the power to stop Netanyahu. And Netanyahu doesn’t give a shit what Americans citizens think. He has the military might to subjugate the Palestinians with or without the US and he has made it clear that that’s what he intends to do.
I will vote for Biden if he ends his support for genocide. That’s it. That’s all I need to vote for him. I just want that one thing, even after he let me down by breaking the rail strike and continuing brutal anti-immigration and doing nothing abiut over policing and expanding American oil and stopping peace negotiations in Ukraine.
Just this one thing.
If that’s too much to ask, he won’t get my vote.
Unfortunately the alternative is a literal wannabe-dictator. By not voting, you’re basically helping Trump.
I voted for Biden to stop fascism and now he’s a genocide collaborator! Would Trump be worse? Maybe - it’s unclear, because at least Democrats would oppose Trump. Trump saw the largest protest movement in American history, Trump inspires Democrats to actually ask for more, Trump will further isolate America (and Israel) geopolitically, it’s hard to predict.
I’m not voting for him, I’m actually voting Democrat down ticket, but if he wins it’s not the end of the world. It’s an opportunity.
In the meantime? Withholding my vote is literally the only way I can exert pressure on Biden. I have a moral obligation to oppose genocide. I won’t vote for it. If he’s smart he’ll reverse course on Israel to save his campaign and this will all be moot. Why is Biden helping Trump win?
You don’t need to exert pressure on Biden. You need to help push the entire system back to the left. When Democrats in general are in government, it allows more room for further left candidates. Just like how electing Republicans made room for the Tea Party and the MAGA crazies. If the window had been more toward the left, they’d have been outside the Republican party.
I’m voting Democrat down ticket. I’m just not voting for genocide Joe.
That’s the only way I can exert any pressure on him, and I don’t have to wait a year for that pressure to manifest. If enough Democrats had the courage to stand up to Biden he’d be forced to change his policies. Instead, you are all choosing to be complicit in genocide.
Not voting is a valid choice, one that says you’re okay with either candidate winning. And that is being complicit with genocide. If you’re not okay with that, vote.
If you don’t want to wait a year, you can call, write, protest, and donate to groups to do those things on your behalf. But to throw away your vote is incredibly short-sighted.
I’m voting for Democrats down ticket, hardly throwing it away. I’m just not voting for any pro-genocide candidates.
And if Biden is smart, he’ll see how much support he’s losing and change his policy towards Israel.
Biden is an empty suit. If the party tells him to change, he’ll change.
Alternatively, Trump wins and everything gets even shittier, and we lose even the possibility for things to get better.
I like how you found yourself being down voted the moment you acknowledged what a piss poor excuse for “Democracy” this is.
And the Party would tell him to change if the Party knew they’d lose the presidency.
Do you think the Party would rather Trump win than stop supporting Israel? I doubt that.
The solution to our choices being a centrist and a literal fascist isn’t to push the Overton window even further right. Such thinking is beyond naive.
What centrist? All I see are two fascists, because genocide sure as fuck isn’t centrist.
You don’t have to be fascist to be genocidal. The two just tend to overlap.
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>By not voting, you’re basically helping Trump.
only a vote for trump helps trump
As a non American, seeing people claim that not voting doesn’t help republicans is fucking hilarious. You’d think that after Trump winning in 2016 and stacking the supreme court, directly being the cause of abortion being outlawed in red states in the fucking 21st century (along with a host of other horrifying things), would make people actually fucking vote. But no here we are. Honestly I really hope you all get the government you want, but the longer I read politics posts on Lemmy the more I’m aghast at people who’d rather let it all burn down than aim for incremental positive change.
Apologies for any bad English, just putting my thoughts out there.
>Apologies for any bad English, just putting my thoughts out there.
it was flawless. better than half my comments today, honestly.
You’d think that after Trump winning in 2016 and stacking the supreme court, directly being the cause of abortion being outlawed in red states in the fucking 21st century (along with a host of other horrifying things), would make people actually fucking vote.
none of this has any bearing on whether voting for trump is the only way to help trump.
>Honestly I really hope you all get the government you want, but the longer I read politics posts on Lemmy the more I’m aghast at people who’d rather let it all burn down than aim for incremental positive change.
biden isn’t incremental positive change. he’s more of the same, and that’s exactly what got us trump in the first place.
Man these libs suuuuure hate when you question their doctrine huh?
Here’s a question for the one or two thinkers in this thread. I don’t want replies, because replies will carry with them egos and snark for the peanut gallery. These questions are for you, (and no-comprendo’s). Questions i had rolling around in my liberal brain before i transitioned to full troll or whatever liberals call leftists these days, questions that take time and reflection to answer.
If the Democrats only campaign to stop Republicans, but DON’T STOP the Republicans (only campaign to stop them), then when do we dem voters get to vote to help ourselves? Is there a timeline?
It has been 12 years of presidents, 12 long years of waiting, tightening our belts, “fighting for democracy”. Why does it seem like the voters are the only ones interested in preserving it?
The DGA and the HRC campaign both have paper trails showing they’ve attempted to elevate extremism in the Republican party. Considering this is still a tactic in use, here’s the million dollar question:
If the Democratic party could, would they keep running against a candidate like Trump every single election in the future?
Edit: thank you, those of you who are thinking. We need more people out there like you doing that
So you were happy with first term Obama but not second term Obama?
Am I reading this right?
Lol you’re right. I was on a roll and added a whole term, oops! Let’s pretend i meant to include bidens second term, which makes me right and not wrong
You were happy with second term Obama?
Indeed, I even voted for Obama second term. Was i as happy with him as the first time? Nah, but i was still a registered dem back then
when he carried on bush’s war crimes, i was done with him. i thought executive orders would be undone, not expanded.
Was it Clinton or Biden that caused you to turn your back to them?
i couldn’t even make it to obama’s second term.
close gitmo
universal healthcare
student debt forgiveness
all lies.
I wonder why republicans spend so much time trying to get people not to vote. Purging rolls, being against mail in voting, closing polling stations, etc. Seems dumb given that people not voting doesn’t help them.
Oh well. You probably know more about elections than them. Glad we have an expert in the house.
if you have something to say, say it. what I said was true.
I think my meaning was quite clear. You are a fool if you think suppressing the vote doesn’t help republicans. They’ve bet everything knowing that people not voting is good for them.
So congrats, you are helping elect our new fascist overlords by not voting for the unpalatable, but not fascist, dude that is on offer. It sucks, but grow the fuck up. Trump winning is going to be a disaster for literally everyone, including Palestinians.
I’m going to probably be voting for cornel west, but I could still be won back by Jill Stein.
neither of those votes help Trump
Cool.
Great way to throw away a vote against fascism voting for candidates with literally zero chance of winning.
Look up why the Nazis came to power sometime. Part of it was that people refused to rally around a single countervailing force. Biden is the countervailing force that has a chance of winning. Trump is literally opening quoting Nazis at this point and people aren’t fucking alarmed. smh
>Look up why the Nazis came to power sometime.
liberal democracy
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they are both running against Trump
Biden is most definitely fascist
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what I said is true
Sure.
He’s helping Israel do genocide. Like???
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what I said is true
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You think Trump will “end the genocide”?
He will go even harder on “USA needs to support Israel defending God’s promised land”.
Remember he is the one who moved the US embassy to support Netanyahu’s agenda.
With Biden, Democrats are mostly falling in line behind the genocide. It’s a bipartisan genocide, with even Bernie being unwilling to support a ceasefire. With Trump, on the other hand, Democrats would reverse course and actually support a ceasefire to obstruct Trump.
-but that’s all speculation. I don’t know, for sure, that it would happen that way. What I do know is I won’t vote for genocide, and I will withhold my vote unless Biden changes his policy on Israel. I won’t vote for Trump, I’ll even vote Dem down ticket, but I won’t vote for genocide.
You, on the other hand, are literally voting for genocide if you support Biden. You just want to absolve yourself of that moral responsibility.
This is the most naive comment I’ve ever seen in my damn life.
“When you grow up sweatie you’ll understand you need to vote for genocide to stop fascism.” 🤡
We must always always always vote for the turd in every election, for if the turd doesn’t win we’ll be stuck with turd plus vomit.
Maybe it’s time you stop voting for the lesser of two evils and rise up.
So what is your alternative? Don’t choose the lesser evil and accept the greater evil? What rising up are you doing?
By not voting for Democrats one of two things will happen: Most likely they’ll continue shifting right because that’s what all those pro-corporate pieces of shit want to do anyway. Or the party will finally move to the left. I really don’t care which way they go. But I’m done rewarding them for being obstructionists.
Well if trump wins, it’s fascism and genocide and climate apocalypse. If Joe wins, it’s genocide and climate apocalypse. Y’all need to fuckin rise up lol.
rise up to…?
Have something more than WWII on America’s “good deeds” list?
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That’s exactly what you are doing. You’re focusing on this one issue, retreating yourself from the binary decision because neither options stands for what you (or I, or morality) would prefer. Completely ignoring that withdrawing from the choice plays into the hand of the infinitely worse candidate. So by not choosing, you do nothing to stop the situation in Gaza, but might actually make things a lot worse for people all over.
You can virtue signal that you did not compromise on your believes, while actually helping your country make a worse place.
We’ve raised lots of issues. The amounts of the stimulus checks, the way he fucked us over with the BBB, the way he negotiated down for student loan forgiveness, for fucking over the rail workers. The list goes on. Every time we mention something we get shut down. For someone who wants our votes so badly you have a really odd way of showing it.
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The stupid thing was to vote for Joe Biden in the 2020 primaries. Those people can go fuck themselves.
Ahhh… so you’re a trumper.
I voted for Obama twice and Biden once. Call me whatever you want. At the end of the day, do you need my vote or not? If you want it I’ve given you the terms: don’t elect procorporate trash in the primaries.
Like I said, there are so many other issues that Biden has betrayed me on. This is just the red line. Here and no further.
You will let Biden do anything he wants to you and beg for more, just to stop Trump. It’s revolting.
If enough Democrats pressured Biden to endorse a ceasefire by withholding their votes, he would! He’s a politician. That’s what politicians do. This is our only leverage! This is all we can do to stop the genocide, and I really think Biden would reconsider if it looked bad enough.
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Good job playing into the hands of the conservatives. If they can’t get your vote they’ll push arguments like yours in order to win.
Good job playing into the hands of Zionists, they need you in order to continue the genocide.
This is dumb and self-righteous. It’ll be 100 times worse with Trump and we all know this.
Really? Why not a million times? A billion!
🤡
I thank god I’m not this illiterate. What do you think Trump’s policy is gonna be? He caters to Republicans who WANT funding to Israel. He pushed the Overton window. What do you think he’s gonna do? Is he gonna weave them baskets and pick them flowers? 🤔
I think he’s going to be obstructed by Democrats, who I am voting for down ticket. I think he’s going to ruin Israel’s relations with the rest of the world and turn it into a pariah state. I think he’s going to overextend himself and fail. I think he’s a fat old man and might just die lol
Posting clown emojis just makes you look like a clown. Use your words.
We slide farther to the right with each passing year regardless of which party wins. You all seem fine with the direction so we’re just upping the timeline. If you want to go in a different direction tell Joe Biden to stop fucking over voters he’s depending on. And tell anyone who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries they’re a fucking asshole.
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Tell Joe Biden to stop fucking over voters he’s depending on.
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It’s not one issue buddy. We’ve had lots of issues with Biden. You’re just so far into denial you’re not hearing us.
Yeah, every president has a lot of issues. You’re just demonstrating that you don’t care about electing a dictator.
So you admit what you just said is a lie? You knew all along we didn’t have just one issue with Biden but you’re out here saying it because you’re a liar? Great. Glad we cleared that up.
Go ahead and list the issues you think would be worse than what Trump has done, and promises yet to do.
We’ll all wait here.
Of course Biden wouldn’t be worse than Trump. I don’t care? You’ll have to do better than that if you want my vote. Millions of people had that opportunity in the 2020 primaries and they chose to vote for a procorporate piece of trash. Fuck those people. If they think they can ignore us in the primaries then we’ll ignore their shit candidate in the general. Don’t like it? That’s how democracy works.
You’re not getting how this works.
You’re not voting for Biden? YOU’RE GETTING TRUMP.
You don’t get to pretend that not voting means you nothing will happen. Right now- you either drink the piss, or you eat the shit. You don’t get to chose neither.
So either move to another country, or pick one.
Right, my choice was made for me by selfish pieces of shit in the 2020 primaries who chose a procorporate trash candidate. They can go fuck themselves.
Trump did say what he would have done, but given it’s Trump he’d probably not do what he said:
Yup. Ending genocide is not on the ballot. Keeping American democracy on life support is on the ballot. And if we lose it because of this childish bullshit, abstainers in 2023 are to blame. You’re as useless as the Dem voters we’re already desperately trying to activate off the couch. Worst part is you’re doing it on purpose. You’re voting for Trump. It doesn’t matter how you feel. This is a fact. We’re hanging on by a thread and you’re whining to your own comrades about your feelings and discomfort. Vote far left down ballot. Elect a democratic president. Otherwise fuck yourself, your words mean literally nothing when you’re hauled off to camp from your family or put on the wall. Thanks for your opinions.
Sounds like a really healthy democracy you’ve got there. 🙄
Anyway, the reason we’re in this position is because everyone who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries is a complete asshole who intentionally fucked over progressive and leftist efforts. Now they’re mad we won’t show up for him in the general? Get fucked.
Nobody is saying that we have a healthy democracy. In fact, just the opposite: they are pointing out that we do not and that is why we are on such thin ice.
And yet, when it came time to select the Democrat nominee millions of people were like “I know we’re on thin ice but I’m still going to vote for the procorporate trash candidate.”
People who voted for Biden in the primaries are fucking assholes.
That’s more of a DNC decision. It’s traditional for both parties to run their incumbent candidate because the incumbent usually wins.
Bernie was buy-and-large the most popular candidate in 2016. Mainstream media all but refused to put him on air(He was bad for business, i.e. for millionaires/billionaire executives). The DNC completely fucked us when they still elected to put Hillary on the ballot; even with the GOP colluding with the FBI to investigate her, whether or not that was legitimate is irrelevant. The DNC fucked us. And yet… Like others have said, our democracy is currently so fragile that we have no real other choice other than to vote D straight down the ballot.
The only other possible option would be for a major of the country to write-in the same person in the primary election and then for that person to register as an official candidate and then run in the general election and win. The vast majority of states require a candidate to be registered for them to be a write-in. And good fucking luck convincing a majority of this country to agree on one person. Personally, if that were to happen I would proudly write-in Jon Stewart.
Biden hasn’t been that bad. Not bad enough to risk never getting to vote again.
Did you just admit the DNC primaries are rigged?
After Bernie got fucked, was there ever any question?
I didn’t have any question no. But the people who are telling me I have to vote for Biden regularly assure me democracy is functioning.
First time?
A) The incumbent party always runs the sitting president if they are eligible for another term. That’s not rigging, it’s literally how it works.
B) Yes, the DNC rigs the primaries. Did you already forget when the DNC forced Hillary on us in 2016? Hell, if you’re asking that question than you obviously already forgot 2016, so of course you don’t even remember 2020.
C) For someone with such strong opinions, you don’t seem to know much about the process. Seriously, is this your first time paying attention? Or is this your first time as an eligible voter?
Buddy I was talking about the 2020 primaries. You misread my comment.
Who said they’re not. But that has nothing to do with you choosing to elect Trump. That’s just you being a bad loser pathetic whiney bitch.
Lol. Like all the bad loser pathetic whiney bitches who were big mad when we didn’t show up for Hillary? Stop voting for procorporate trash in the primaries.
And did win.
That has nothing to do with today. You’re dumb.
Call me whatever you want. If you don’t need my vote ignore me. If you need my vote then fucking pay attention.
In all of your comments, I’ve yet to see you propose a solution to prevent the end of our democracy. Just complaining it’s not enough of a democracy.
How does letting Trump get elected get you closer to your goals, not further?
It’s not my responsibility to propose a solution to prevent the end of democracy. It’s the responsibility of everyone who voted for Joe Biden in the 2020 primaries why they’re such pieces of shit.
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When will we have a choice? Tell me how many more times I’m morally obligated to vote for your piece of shit candidate?
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If that’s true then the people who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries are absolute pieces of shit. Fuck them for fucking over progressive and leftist efforts.
You don’t even use logic. Those concepts have no relationship. You’re just an idiot with too much time online. You even go to DSA protests? Activism? You’re nothing.
Buddy, I have phone banked, canvassed, donated and voted.
Then you don’t need my vote and you can just ignore me.
No. I will not put up with this for 48 more years.
Correct. Because this won’t be here.
Good.
People had a choice in the 2020 primaries and they chose procorporate trash Joe Biden. That’s on them for picking a shit candidate. Not me.
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I do not give a fuck. What are you not understanding here? What did you people not fucking get in 2016? Who the fuck thought it was a good idea to test us again by voting for Joe fucking Biden in the 2020 primaries. Fuck all of those people. They actively fought us and proved we’re not on the same side.
Wah wah wah wah this is hard and didn’t go my way so I’m gonna whine and fuck everyone even harder, my fellow victims included. So we should get sent to the fucking chamber and women made breeding machines bc you’re a whiney bitch. If you’re not gonna help, go get hit by a bus instead of bringing the rest of us down. You’re disgusting and sad.
Welcome to Democracy. You aren’t entitled to my vote. If you need it then make better choices in the primaries. If you don’t need my vote continue voting for procorporate trash and then crying when they lose in the general election.
“democracy is on life support”… yeah… didn’t say this was healthy. Thanks for demonstrating the problem with binary zero sum game thinking. You’re not grounded in reality if you can’t see we’re on life support. You don’t give a dying person meth and have them run a marathon. You hold on for dear life.
And fwiw wrt primaries… I voted against him. I voted against Hillary. I even voted against Pelosi for being too conservative. You’re fighting your comrades and the movement and that’s why you’re in the wrong and you don’t mean anything. Your politics and intellectualism mean nothing with the barrel of a gun between your eyes. Get your head out of your ass and vote against fascism. Or be a baby and have my friends and family killed in a few years. But I should get fucked. Thanks comrade. I’ll think about this comment looking out the window of the train at my kid for the last time. I’ll forever remember your vote, when I work to death in that mine, picturing my child screaming and crying the last time they see me.
You should’ve gotten your head out of your ass and voted for someone better in the 2020 primaries. You voted for Biden. I’m not responsible for how your garbage candidate performs in the general.
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You’ve got no plan.
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America has never been a democracy. 🙄
Also, I’m not voting for Trump! I’m even voting left down ballot, I’m just not voting for Biden specifically.
If Trump wins and Democrats control both chambers, what the hell can he even do? Bloviate? I guess maybe he’ll do some executive orders that the 6-3 Court will uphold, but if Democrats aren’t worthless cowards they’ll just refuse to enforce his orders and it won’t matter anyway.
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There’s no guarantee we won’t already be in WW3 before the election (Israel is trying its best) so it’s hard to game things out that far.
Also, Trump has praised Hezbollah’s military. The guy is a clown and just says whatever pops in his head.
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There are so many issues that I oppose Biden on, this isn’t single issue. After betraying the railroad workers, after betraying migrants and refugees, after betraying over-policed and hyper-incarcerated minorities, how can I just accept yet another thing to hate about Biden? When will it end? I will not lay down and let him have his way with me because Trump is worse.
This is just the red line. Here and no further. If you let Biden do anything he wants to you and beg for more, why would he ever stop?
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You do realize if Trump loses the Republican primaries you’re gonna have to come up with a brand new narrative to explain why we have to vote for Biden right?
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Beautifully said my friend!
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There’s lots of other issues. You just weren’t paying attention to what people have been saying.
Go ahead and list the issues you have with Biden that would be worse than the issues you’d have with Trump. Keep in mind, that the orange-utan has threatened to use the military once in power to keep people like you in line. Also worth mentioning, he plans on strengthening the abortion ban, more oppression of the LGBTQ+ and withdrawing from climate agreements.
So please. Enlighten us on how your single-issue is worse than dealing with a tyrant.
You can accept the truth of this, or you can pout and hold on to your vote, but I’ll warn you than the latter is a vote for Trump no matter how you try and justify it.
Do the right thing.
We’ve raised a lot of issues with Biden. You just haven’t been paying attention.
Millions of people had the opportunity to do the right thing in the 2020 primaries and instead they voted for procorporate trash Joe Biden. Fuck those people.
I say again;
Go ahead and list the issues you have with Biden that would be worse than the issues you’d have with Trump. Keep in mind, that the orange-utan has threatened to use the military once in power to keep people like you in line. Also worth mentioning, he plans on strengthening the abortion ban, more oppression of the LGBTQ+ and withdrawing from climate agreements.
Know what? Nevermind. I don’t want to hear from you anymore.
You never did.
Look at this closely people.This is the misinformation campaign for the election.
Both sides support this war, this stance that a republican would do anything different is laughable.
This is the rhetoric that will be blasted all around social media creating a bullshit narrative of a rational liberal “taking the high ground” and encouraging others to follow by voting blue for everyone but Joe Biden.
I’ve been seeing a lot of this lately and I agree, it definitely feels like an astroturf campaign.
Most single issue voters are focused on domestic issues such as abortion or the economy. And you would think that someone who cares so much about Israel would also be worried about other aspects of foreign policy such as Ukraine.
The whole premise is ridiculous. And I think it speaks to Biden’s success as a president that this is the best campaign they can come up with.
I dunno, is it that crazy to think the venn diagram of liberal voters and people that hate genocide are a near-perfect circle?
Biden doing an end-around Congress to send more weapons, while we can all see how they are being used seems like a misinformation campaign?
Frankly, why would voicing distaste for Biden or ones intention not to vote for him cause people to do the same??
Like are you changing your mind right now? Of course not. A passionate person such as yourself should be even more determined to vote for Biden knowing i will not.
I hate the bullshit shutdown tactic of calling an opinion an astroturf campaign.
It’s meant to keep voting democrats that are on the fence at home.
It’s not just voicing distaste, it’s providing a rational justification to this voter pool which appeals to a “morality of the left” mindset of not voting for a candidate because of singular issues even though the totality of the candidate is much better than the alternative.
It’s also providing a bad-faith argument. Another Trump presidency would completely back this and potentially fuel an internal racial cleansing once the cult gets new talking points on who the bad people are.
Meant? My comments are 'meant to do something? This just sounds goofy. Who actually thinks this way except pollsters and astroturfers? I have opinions, wrong and right, i share all of them on the Internet.
I want to talk to you more deeply about this. Do you believe other people on lemmy are so credulous and yet so uninformed, so lacking in morality that reading about my opinion on it will sway them? These people are also voters that definitely vote normally, but are also so easy to manipulate that my words make them stop?
Stop.
A bad faith argument would be to say that there are only 2 choices, but that really there is only one choice.
That any argument against your belief is astroturf or a lie to help the opposition.
That states a guess of what the other candidate would have done as fact.
Who out of the two of us has done these things?
Vote Biden! Vote hard, cuz i won’t. You, in the meantime need to stop talking, you do more harm than good to your cause.
Not your comments, the other’s comments.
Yes I believe that there are people who will make decision opinion based on the social media discourse they read in the coming months. I would estimate its 15% of the voting population.
It is a bad faith argument because regardless of who is president, American Congressional support for Israel will continue. The original poster implied that by not voting, genocide would be avoided.
Cool, if you’re not voting your opinion doesn’t matter.
It matters enough for you to write a point-for-pointer debunking it, tho. I wonder why
Your thoughtless disrespect, misrepresenting of op’s position, and besmirching the intelligence of your fellow voters notwithstanding, the time you spent on your opus makes me happy, believe it or not.
I hope you have a nice night :D
So, my comments? Fuck off, I’m also just expressing my political positions!
Your political positions are inane and childish, please keep them in your head until you graduate high school.
Okay, then by that logic, why is Biden helping Trump get elected by playing into this strategy?
Like I said, Biden has betrayed me over and over, but like a beaten dog I will crawl back to him if he just does this one thing. That’s all I’m asking for. It would be so easy for Biden to get my vote. It’s entirely in his hands. Yet he won’t do it. Why? Why is he determined to help Trump win?
The outcome will not change regardless of who is President because Congress is beholden to the defense industry and will always support selling weapons.
So no one is helping anyone win because the outcome is the same. If this is your true opinion, get your head out of your ass and see the big picture. Otherwise, fuck you for trying to spread facism.
… if that’s true, then elections don’t matter in the first place! What the fuck?
If the outcome will not change regardless of who is President, why are you crawling up my dick about refusing to vote for Biden?
Your single issue outcome is the same, not every outcome.
That’s more reasonable.
I still think you’re wrong, I think Biden can be forced to endorse a ceasefire because politicians actually do care about elections. Right now the Biden team believes that Democrats are loyal to the core and can be counted to vote blue no matter who, there’s zero incentive to endorse a ceasefire. Why bother? He can do anything he wants to you and you’ll still vote for him. They’ve basically said as much.
And do you realize what that does? That’s not a “single issue”. Biden broke the railroad strike. Biden approved the Willow oil and gas pipeline project. Biden has fought to keep Trump’s COVID border policies, despite basically giving up entirely on controlling the spread of the virus otherwise. Biden allowed Manchin to stonewall almost everything when there was a huge Democratic majority.
By voting blue no matter who, you have enabled Biden to completely ignore the demands of his own base. You’re enabling genocide.
Sounds like Democracy is already broken then. Remind me what I’m supposed to be defending here?
A broken democracy is better than a fascist regime.
A fascist regime today is better than one tomorrow. You people have no idea how to change trajectory here you just tell us to keep kicking the can as the country slides to the right. It’s pathetic.
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Maybe you need to look up how the rail strike ended… its clear you’re exceptionally misinformed.
https://www.npr.org/2023/02/10/1155763336/freight-rail-workers-union-paid-sick-leave-bernie-sanders-csx
Joe has been a phenomenal President so far
There’s no excuse for blocking a strike. Fuck Joe Biden and fuck the 44 Democrat senators and 36 Republican senators who helped him.
Ah yes, The fact the workers got what they wanted isn’t good enough is it?
Fucking hate phony people like this. Pretending you care about workers but don’t actually.
They didn’t get what they wanted. They wanted 15 days. Nobody has 15 days. I know more about this issue than you.
I really despise people like this that fake care about workers
That’s you bud.
It’s bullshit workers went from 0 sick days to 7. Fuck joe Biden, piece of shit. Amirite??
Buddy, a few workers from one union have 7 days. You don’t know what you’re talking about. Yes, fuck Joe Biden.
Stop defending him for blocking a strike. That ain’t pro worker any way you look at it. Fuck Joe Biden.
“Those of us in Congress who voted for seven days… we are not going to forget this issue,” Sanders warned on Thursday, Feb 2023…
Yes… OP read one headline and then forgot about it lol
But not Amtrak Joe 💪
Fuck off. You’re just going to be supporting someone who will be even worse about it and potentially even bring it home.
I hope your conscience feels real good when that happens.
My conscience is clean because I’m not voting for genocide. You are, and you’re mad at me for pointing that out.
By not voting, you are still, implicitly, voting for the candidate who you wouldn’t have voted for. Do you think he’s not supporting Israel?
Do you think he even has any moral standing?
That’s who you’re voting for by not voting.
And if you vote for Trump, that’s actually two votes for Trump! 🤡
And every dollar you don’t donate to Biden is a dollar donated to Trump! 🙃
So if a Republican chooses to not vote because they don’t like Biden or Trump, they’re actually helping Biden! 😱
So you’re fine if, when presented with two choices, you picked the one that made things worse? Ok.
You can construct whatever ethics puzzles you want to absolve yourself of guilt, but you are literally voting for genocide. I’m not.
This is our only leverage, and if enough of us made it clear to Biden that he will lose then he would change his policies. This is the only power we have and we have a moral obligation to use it. Instead of cowardly voting for genocide, force Biden to the left like y’all promised.
I can’t imagine being this dense, wow. Trump would be so obviously worse but you pretend to care about Biden instead. It’s all so fake, nobody is going to give you virtue points when democracy dies.
They’re fascist trolls trying to push leftists away from viable candidates. I see queermunist and go_go_gadget all over the place and they’re always spouting this same shit. I guarantee if Bernie or some other progressive candidate began to seriously pick up steam they’d immediately pivot and make up some shit like “Warcrime Stein” or “Brutality Bernie”.
This is it exactly. “If I can’t get everything I want I’ll take my ball and go home!” is such an obvious fash tactic and talking point.
This is such a bizarre argument to make in the context of supposedly saving Democracy. Being morally obligated to vote for one person I despise isn’t Democratic. Sorry to burst your bubble.
Me trying to convince you to vote for a particular candidate is democratic, you knob.
And me saying “no” is also.
Removed by mod
Ending genocide isn’t on the ballot this year, Trump is. Your choices are between probably more genocide if you don’t vote for Biden and possibly less genocide if you do vote for Biden. It’s really that simple.
Look at that comment. Really, really, look at it.
Yes, we live in America and don’t get to vote on those sorts of things generally. The choices available are shitty and limited, if you haven’t figured that out yet I’ve got some terrible news because that’s how it works here. You can vote for the lesser evil and hope to move things in a better direction, or you can empower Trump and pretty much guarantee the horrorshow will be intensified.
I won’t vote for evil at all. Not if it means this. I’ve voted that way, (lesser evil) in hopes that i could do like you said, but it didn’t pan out that way in the 25 voting years I’ve experienced. The (quite likely) fact you have closer to that many total years as i have voting years, and that I’ve been a political hobbyist for most of those means your attempt at dismissal is a sloppy one.
Your judgment is not good then, I’ve been a voter for a bit longer than you. I don’t think you really have a choice in “voting for evil”, not voting or throwing your vote away on a third party is just as much a vote for evil as directly voting for Trump because it still serves to empower Trump and the GOP.
I dunno, i am ending this farce :D
You’re basically saying you’re “moral purity” is more important than the people who will be directly impacted by a trump presidency. When trump decides to, or more accurately motivate others to, “purify” this country of it’s queers, Jews, and brown people my wife and I will have people like you to thank, who’s moral purity was somehow more important than my life. Your decision isn’t moral, it’s evil.
Would you like to discuss why what your said is not a strawman?
i imagine you understand what one is. You ostensibly have fingers, so you can Google it, and i imagine also that you have eyes, and therefore some understanding that what you have said has already been said, and said better, then you, just now.
Still here? Considering both of these points (and the implicit understanding between us that you also have a brain), what on gods green earth did you smoke that made you think this opinion was worth sharing with me?
Because you can’t possibly think you’d convince me with your ignorant, late, copy-cat finger-wagging.
Gosh. Letting out my frustration on you felt good. That probably wasn’t your intent though. What on earth were you attenpting to do?
No one replies to your moronic comments hoping to change your mind, it’s for anyone else who is impressionable that might find some twisted logic in your confused hogwash.
Ah! So it was for the peanut gallery. I hope you don’t take as much damage next time you take a bullet for the poor impressionable lurkers in future threads. I wonder if they will also witness your winning an argument you made up?
Are you the type who needs the last word? Please be my guest, hero.
It would be if you cowards had the guts to tell Biden that he will lose if he continues to support genocide.
Sorry but that’s not how it works and insulting me won’t change anything.
That is how it works! Politicians change their policies based on what their supporters demand of them.
What do you think politics is? Do you think we’re helpless to the whims of politicians between election cycles?
You just want to absolve yourself of guilt for actively supporting genocide.
Again, insulting me won’t change anything. I obviously don’t support genocide. I’m done with whatever you’re doing.
You are voting for genocide. You can’t escape it.
By voting against Biden, including not voting, you are voting for genocide as well. But equally importantly, also voting for fascism.
Well, we made it pretty clear we were fed up with procorporate trash candidates in 2016. But then a bunch of pieces of shit decided they were voting for Biden in the 2020 primaries. We gave him a chance and he fucking blew it. Fuck Joe Biden and fuck everyone who voted for him in the primaries.
The few people on the Internet that read this or feel like you. Grow up. You’re not changing anything. You’re electing Trump. I’ve heard this bullshit for over 20 years and it’s been a slippery fucking slope.
They really do come across as naive children, the people who espouse this kind of belief. Demonstrating a lack of awareness of how complicated global politics are while also demonstrating a lack of awareness of how, in some ways, simple American politics are. They remind me of myself as a high schooler, all full of righteous indignation and hope for change without understanding how things work.
There will only be two choices for president, no matter how much we may want it to be otherwise or pretend that it could be otherwise. That will remain the case until we can get rid of first past the post and no amount of protesting is going to change that. If you truly want a third party candidate, your focus should be on getting rid of first pass the post. Until then, we only have two options.
Yes, that does mean our democracy is broken. No, that doesn’t mean it’s unsalvageable. And as I said above, a broken democracy is better than a fascist regime.
That’s the absolute worst part bc at that age I’d say shit like “well maybe they have to sacrifice their kids for there to even be a fucking future!” and thinking that’s reasonable. Getting older, and enough dystopian media about hard choices, I’ve learned to ask “why” a lot more and remember… What are we fighting for in the first place if we lose ourselves along the way? But yeah… You couldn’t change my mind then, even if I couldn’t see a Nazi on my doorstep like this. Very scary to be naive.
Sounds like you don’t need our votes then. Go win the 2024 general election all on your own.
Biden is electing Trump by alienating his base. 80% of Democrats want a ceasefire! What the fuck?!
Your cynicism is noted, but change is possible if you aren’t too much of a coward to try.
No matter how much people vote against Biden, that won’t end the genocide. Regardless of the fact that Trump would carry it out probably more enthusiastically, neither of them have the power to stop Netanyahu. And Netanyahu doesn’t give a shit what Americans citizens think. He has the military might to subjugate the Palestinians with or without the US and he has made it clear that that’s what he intends to do.
Then fuck Joe Biden, fuck the Democrats, fuck this country and fuck this “Democracy”. You all can try to win the general on your own.
I hope you see you will be to blame for the consequences
Nope. I’m going to blame every shithead who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries. Fuck those people. Fuck every single one of them.