I voted for Biden to stop fascism and now he’s a genocide collaborator! Would Trump be worse? Maybe - it’s unclear, because at least Democrats would oppose Trump. Trump saw the largest protest movement in American history, Trump inspires Democrats to actually ask for more, Trump will further isolate America (and Israel) geopolitically, it’s hard to predict.
I’m not voting for him, I’m actually voting Democrat down ticket, but if he wins it’s not the end of the world. It’s an opportunity.
In the meantime? Withholding my vote is literally the only way I can exert pressure on Biden. I have a moral obligation to oppose genocide. I won’t vote for it. If he’s smart he’ll reverse course on Israel to save his campaign and this will all be moot. Why is Biden helping Trump win?
You don’t need to exert pressure on Biden. You need to help push the entire system back to the left. When Democrats in general are in government, it allows more room for further left candidates. Just like how electing Republicans made room for the Tea Party and the MAGA crazies. If the window had been more toward the left, they’d have been outside the Republican party.
I’m voting Democrat down ticket. I’m just not voting for genocide Joe.
That’s the only way I can exert any pressure on him, and I don’t have to wait a year for that pressure to manifest. If enough Democrats had the courage to stand up to Biden he’d be forced to change his policies. Instead, you are all choosing to be complicit in genocide.
Not voting is a valid choice, one that says you’re okay with either candidate winning. And that is being complicit with genocide. If you’re not okay with that, vote.
If you don’t want to wait a year, you can call, write, protest, and donate to groups to do those things on your behalf. But to throw away your vote is incredibly short-sighted.
Yup. But in the choice of who to vote for president, there’s the establishment candidate, or the “dictator for a day” candidate. Or there’s not voting, which is saying “yes, either of those are okay”. One of those things has the chance of making progress, and it should be obvious.
They know they’re not going to lose on this issue, though, because anyone who seriously evaluates the election has come to the same conclusion that I already said: a Trump victory is the worst outcome. Again, you’ll have to put pressure on the party through other means, just one of which is electing more leftist downballot candidates.
I don’t understand why people think the democrats losing to someone farther right would make them move left. Doesn’t it make more sense they’d move to the right since that’s what more voters wanted?
As a non American, seeing people claim that not voting doesn’t help republicans is fucking hilarious. You’d think that after Trump winning in 2016 and stacking the supreme court, directly being the cause of abortion being outlawed in red states in the fucking 21st century (along with a host of other horrifying things), would make people actually fucking vote. But no here we are. Honestly I really hope you all get the government you want, but the longer I read politics posts on Lemmy the more I’m aghast at people who’d rather let it all burn down than aim for incremental positive change.
Apologies for any bad English, just putting my thoughts out there.
You’d think that after Trump winning in 2016 and stacking the supreme court, directly being the cause of abortion being outlawed in red states in the fucking 21st century (along with a host of other horrifying things), would make people actually fucking vote.
none of this has any bearing on whether voting for trump is the only way to help trump.
>Honestly I really hope you all get the government you want, but the longer I read politics posts on Lemmy the more I’m aghast at people who’d rather let it all burn down than aim for incremental positive change.
biden isn’t incremental positive change. he’s more of the same, and that’s exactly what got us trump in the first place.
Man these libs suuuuure hate when you question their doctrine huh?
Here’s a question for the one or two thinkers in this thread. I don’t want replies, because replies will carry with them egos and snark for the peanut gallery. These questions are for you, (and no-comprendo’s). Questions i had rolling around in my liberal brain before i transitioned to full troll or whatever liberals call leftists these days, questions that take time and reflection to answer.
If the Democrats only campaign to stop Republicans, but DON’T STOP the Republicans (only campaign to stop them), then when do we dem voters get to vote to help ourselves? Is there a timeline?
It has been 12 years of presidents, 12 long years of waiting, tightening our belts, “fighting for democracy”. Why does it seem like the voters are the only ones interested in preserving it?
The DGA and the HRC campaign both have paper trails showing they’ve attempted to elevate extremism in the Republican party. Considering this is still a tactic in use, here’s the million dollar question:
If the Democratic party could, would they keep running against a candidate like Trump every single election in the future?
Edit: thank you, those of you who are thinking. We need more people out there like you doing that
It has been 12 years of presidents, 12 long years of waiting, tightening our belts, “fighting for democracy”. Why does it seem like the voters are the only ones interested in preserving it?
So you were happy with first term Obama but not second term Obama?
Lol you’re right. I was on a roll and added a whole term, oops! Let’s pretend i meant to include bidens second term, which makes me right and not wrong
Oh yeah, but you can’t overestimate how much prop we get shoved down our throats. Kinda like McDs you don’t realize how shit it is for your system until you stop eating it daily
I got into politics more deeply than ever, going door to door for bernie back in '16. The verdict by the judge in 17 saying the DNC is a private entity caused me to no longer believe in the Dem’s primary process. The way HRC’s campaign wanted to control both her and trump coverage in the media, the podesta emails, and that whole related scandal really put a beat down on my whole belief system.
So i kept reading and thinking and adjusting my political worldview and here i am, arguing it on a small forum on the web (or cynically working tirelessly to helpTrump win, depending on your pov)
I wonder why republicans spend so much time trying to get people not to vote. Purging rolls, being against mail in voting, closing polling stations, etc. Seems dumb given that people not voting doesn’t help them.
Oh well. You probably know more about elections than them. Glad we have an expert in the house.
I think my meaning was quite clear. You are a fool if you think suppressing the vote doesn’t help republicans. They’ve bet everything knowing that people not voting is good for them.
So congrats, you are helping elect our new fascist overlords by not voting for the unpalatable, but not fascist, dude that is on offer. It sucks, but grow the fuck up. Trump winning is going to be a disaster for literally everyone, including Palestinians.
Great way to throw away a vote against fascism voting for candidates with literally zero chance of winning.
Look up why the Nazis came to power sometime. Part of it was that people refused to rally around a single countervailing force. Biden is the countervailing force that has a chance of winning. Trump is literally opening quoting Nazis at this point and people aren’t fucking alarmed. smh
As a sincere question, what do you think Trump is going to do that is better than what Biden is going to do when it comes to the genocide in Gaza?
Because regardless of who you vote for or who you want to win, it will either be Biden or Trump, unless one of them dies or becomes invalidated. So, how will Trump be better for the Palestinians than Biden will be?
Unfortunately the alternative is a literal wannabe-dictator. By not voting, you’re basically helping Trump.
I voted for Biden to stop fascism and now he’s a genocide collaborator! Would Trump be worse? Maybe - it’s unclear, because at least Democrats would oppose Trump. Trump saw the largest protest movement in American history, Trump inspires Democrats to actually ask for more, Trump will further isolate America (and Israel) geopolitically, it’s hard to predict.
I’m not voting for him, I’m actually voting Democrat down ticket, but if he wins it’s not the end of the world. It’s an opportunity.
In the meantime? Withholding my vote is literally the only way I can exert pressure on Biden. I have a moral obligation to oppose genocide. I won’t vote for it. If he’s smart he’ll reverse course on Israel to save his campaign and this will all be moot. Why is Biden helping Trump win?
You don’t need to exert pressure on Biden. You need to help push the entire system back to the left. When Democrats in general are in government, it allows more room for further left candidates. Just like how electing Republicans made room for the Tea Party and the MAGA crazies. If the window had been more toward the left, they’d have been outside the Republican party.
I’m voting Democrat down ticket. I’m just not voting for genocide Joe.
That’s the only way I can exert any pressure on him, and I don’t have to wait a year for that pressure to manifest. If enough Democrats had the courage to stand up to Biden he’d be forced to change his policies. Instead, you are all choosing to be complicit in genocide.
Not voting is a valid choice, one that says you’re okay with either candidate winning. And that is being complicit with genocide. If you’re not okay with that, vote.
If you don’t want to wait a year, you can call, write, protest, and donate to groups to do those things on your behalf. But to throw away your vote is incredibly short-sighted.
I’m voting for Democrats down ticket, hardly throwing it away. I’m just not voting for any pro-genocide candidates.
And if Biden is smart, he’ll see how much support he’s losing and change his policy towards Israel.
Biden is an empty suit. If the party tells him to change, he’ll change.
Alternatively, Trump wins and everything gets even shittier, and we lose even the possibility for things to get better.
I like how you found yourself being down voted the moment you acknowledged what a piss poor excuse for “Democracy” this is.
Yup. But in the choice of who to vote for president, there’s the establishment candidate, or the “dictator for a day” candidate. Or there’s not voting, which is saying “yes, either of those are okay”. One of those things has the chance of making progress, and it should be obvious.
And the Party would tell him to change if the Party knew they’d lose the presidency.
Do you think the Party would rather Trump win than stop supporting Israel? I doubt that.
They know they’re not going to lose on this issue, though, because anyone who seriously evaluates the election has come to the same conclusion that I already said: a Trump victory is the worst outcome. Again, you’ll have to put pressure on the party through other means, just one of which is electing more leftist downballot candidates.
I don’t understand why people think the democrats losing to someone farther right would make them move left. Doesn’t it make more sense they’d move to the right since that’s what more voters wanted?
The solution to our choices being a centrist and a literal fascist isn’t to push the Overton window even further right. Such thinking is beyond naive.
What centrist? All I see are two fascists, because genocide sure as fuck isn’t centrist.
You don’t have to be fascist to be genocidal. The two just tend to overlap.
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>By not voting, you’re basically helping Trump.
only a vote for trump helps trump
As a non American, seeing people claim that not voting doesn’t help republicans is fucking hilarious. You’d think that after Trump winning in 2016 and stacking the supreme court, directly being the cause of abortion being outlawed in red states in the fucking 21st century (along with a host of other horrifying things), would make people actually fucking vote. But no here we are. Honestly I really hope you all get the government you want, but the longer I read politics posts on Lemmy the more I’m aghast at people who’d rather let it all burn down than aim for incremental positive change.
Apologies for any bad English, just putting my thoughts out there.
>Apologies for any bad English, just putting my thoughts out there.
it was flawless. better than half my comments today, honestly.
You’d think that after Trump winning in 2016 and stacking the supreme court, directly being the cause of abortion being outlawed in red states in the fucking 21st century (along with a host of other horrifying things), would make people actually fucking vote.
none of this has any bearing on whether voting for trump is the only way to help trump.
>Honestly I really hope you all get the government you want, but the longer I read politics posts on Lemmy the more I’m aghast at people who’d rather let it all burn down than aim for incremental positive change.
biden isn’t incremental positive change. he’s more of the same, and that’s exactly what got us trump in the first place.
Man these libs suuuuure hate when you question their doctrine huh?
Here’s a question for the one or two thinkers in this thread. I don’t want replies, because replies will carry with them egos and snark for the peanut gallery. These questions are for you, (and no-comprendo’s). Questions i had rolling around in my liberal brain before i transitioned to full troll or whatever liberals call leftists these days, questions that take time and reflection to answer.
If the Democrats only campaign to stop Republicans, but DON’T STOP the Republicans (only campaign to stop them), then when do we dem voters get to vote to help ourselves? Is there a timeline?
It has been 12 years of presidents, 12 long years of waiting, tightening our belts, “fighting for democracy”. Why does it seem like the voters are the only ones interested in preserving it?
The DGA and the HRC campaign both have paper trails showing they’ve attempted to elevate extremism in the Republican party. Considering this is still a tactic in use, here’s the million dollar question:
If the Democratic party could, would they keep running against a candidate like Trump every single election in the future?
Edit: thank you, those of you who are thinking. We need more people out there like you doing that
So you were happy with first term Obama but not second term Obama?
Am I reading this right?
Lol you’re right. I was on a roll and added a whole term, oops! Let’s pretend i meant to include bidens second term, which makes me right and not wrong
You were happy with second term Obama?
Indeed, I even voted for Obama second term. Was i as happy with him as the first time? Nah, but i was still a registered dem back then
when he carried on bush’s war crimes, i was done with him. i thought executive orders would be undone, not expanded.
i couldn’t even make it to obama’s second term.
close gitmo
universal healthcare
student debt forgiveness
all lies.
Oh yeah, but you can’t overestimate how much prop we get shoved down our throats. Kinda like McDs you don’t realize how shit it is for your system until you stop eating it daily
Was it Clinton or Biden that caused you to turn your back to them?
I got into politics more deeply than ever, going door to door for bernie back in '16. The verdict by the judge in 17 saying the DNC is a private entity caused me to no longer believe in the Dem’s primary process. The way HRC’s campaign wanted to control both her and trump coverage in the media, the podesta emails, and that whole related scandal really put a beat down on my whole belief system.
So i kept reading and thinking and adjusting my political worldview and here i am, arguing it on a small forum on the web (or cynically working tirelessly to helpTrump win, depending on your pov)
I wonder why republicans spend so much time trying to get people not to vote. Purging rolls, being against mail in voting, closing polling stations, etc. Seems dumb given that people not voting doesn’t help them.
Oh well. You probably know more about elections than them. Glad we have an expert in the house.
if you have something to say, say it. what I said was true.
I think my meaning was quite clear. You are a fool if you think suppressing the vote doesn’t help republicans. They’ve bet everything knowing that people not voting is good for them.
So congrats, you are helping elect our new fascist overlords by not voting for the unpalatable, but not fascist, dude that is on offer. It sucks, but grow the fuck up. Trump winning is going to be a disaster for literally everyone, including Palestinians.
I’m going to probably be voting for cornel west, but I could still be won back by Jill Stein.
neither of those votes help Trump
Cool.
Great way to throw away a vote against fascism voting for candidates with literally zero chance of winning.
Look up why the Nazis came to power sometime. Part of it was that people refused to rally around a single countervailing force. Biden is the countervailing force that has a chance of winning. Trump is literally opening quoting Nazis at this point and people aren’t fucking alarmed. smh
>Look up why the Nazis came to power sometime.
liberal democracy
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they are both running against Trump
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Biden is most definitely fascist
Sure.
He’s helping Israel do genocide. Like???
As a sincere question, what do you think Trump is going to do that is better than what Biden is going to do when it comes to the genocide in Gaza?
Because regardless of who you vote for or who you want to win, it will either be Biden or Trump, unless one of them dies or becomes invalidated. So, how will Trump be better for the Palestinians than Biden will be?
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what I said is true
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what I said is true
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