-liberal attempts at reform without radical change
-more liberal attempts at reform without radical change
-more liberal attempts at reform without radical change
Again, none of this is actually to the left, it’s still liberalism and still center-right. For people who believe the system itself is fucked and needs to be restructured, of course moderate reform isn’t going to be enough.
You’re proving my point. Biden is decent for a liberal, at being a liberal. That is not a leftist. Trump is great at being a fascist, and fascists love to vote for him. Leftists have to bite their tongues and fall in line with a moderate right winger that will never attempt to appeal to them.
I did. My point is that you’re recasting the real situation into a totally cockeyed reinterpretation. If a Democrat tries to do something left-wing, and it doesn’t work within the system, and they have to pare it back to something more establishment-friendly but that still helps a whole bunch of people when they get it passed, I don’t think it’s accurate to blame the Democrat for that situation. You can have a productive conversation about “yo that sucks how do we make this less corrupt,” and tons of ideas within or not-within the system can help get that done.
It’s like ten people standing around a burning building, and five people are trying to put out the fire while five are actively trying to stop them and light new fires, and you’re saying this whole organizational structure is fucked (accurate) we have to fix it (accurate) what the fuck you five guys who are trying seem like your firefighting efforts aren’t working (here’s where it breaks down for me).
You want to bring in better more qualified firefighters? Fuckin’ A, man, that sounds great. In the meantime, I think letting the ones who are trying continue to try is not somehow a bad thing, definitely better than helping the ones who are lighting new fires take control.
Also, “fall in line with” is a very weird phrasing. I’ve never in my life fallen in line with a Democratic politician. (“voting out of fear” is another). I just vote for the person I think will be better than the other person, because I want to have a better outcome instead of a worse one. Why are you searching for ways to cast that pretty sensible decision in some kind of negative emotionally charged light?
(Also, I have asked this of people of your ilk I have talked to on Lemmy before: What should I do, instead of voting, to support leftist change within the US? What is your activist organization, what is your movement to work for change? Because working for something better than the current establishment Democrats sounds great, yes. How can I do that?)
Democrats aren’t doing anything left wing, nor are they trying to, though. That’s my point. If the Democrats were trying to do left-wing things, then leftists wouldn’t always be so upset that they have to bite their tongues, plug their nose, and vote for the center-right candidates.
For your burning building analogy, that is only accurate if you’re a center-rightwinger. The actual analogy is if you have 2 groups of people, one starting 3 fires and putting out 2, and the other starting 3 fires and trying to stop the other person. Both groups are starting fires, one is just better. As a leftist, both liberals and fascists are still bad, though liberals are not nearly as bad as fascists, both are still negative.
Again, I vote for the center-right wingers, and criticize them as they continue to fumble the ball. I’m not advocating for better liberals, I’m advocating for leftists. I am not supporting abstaining from voting, or voting for fascists, I’m asking you to look in the mirror and realize that while Biden may be great for you, he’s far from a leftist and isn’t actually implementing leftist change, so leftists will understandably be upset.
You haven’t had to fall in line because you aren’t a leftist, and liberals are doing a good job in your eyes. Simple as. Leftists have to fall in line and vote for the lesser of two evils, while you get to vote for what you perceive as at minimum positive change.
To answer your question at the end, it greatly depends on where you are. Actual, leftist change comes from grassroots movements, so it will depend on your area. I’m not asking for you to dox yourself, so instead I’ll give generalized information. Unionize your workplace, join something like the IWW or Food Not Bombs, educate and advocate, volunteer for local leftist politicians that may upset the liberal or fascist status quo, read theory, teach others, and donate to strike funds. Those are all pretty achievable for most people, at least partially. You don’t have to be a union leader or anything, but every bit helps.
You haven’t had to fall in line because you aren’t a leftist, and liberals are doing a good job in your eyes.
I’ve noticed this a lot on Lemmy: It’s a common arguing technique to simply tell the other person what their views are, and base your argument on that. In this case, you are 1,000% wrong. Wrong as hell.
I was registered third party for like the first ten years of my voting life, because I was disgusted with the Democrats. Bernie Sanders has been the only presidental candidate I’ve been genuinely happy with in recent memory. Don’t tell me what my views are, and assume that I must be saying what I’m saying because of what those imaginary views are.
while you get to vote for what you perceive as at minimum positive change.
I think this is where our fundamental disconnect comes in. Before I say anything else, I want to ask, what are things that have gotten worse under Biden, to you? Oil extraction and Gaza, I assume; what else?
Don’t be surprised if I label you a liberal if you’re coming in batting full force for tepid, liberal Capitalist reform, and that leftists should be happy with it because it is good change.
Either way, Capitalism continues to erode, resulting in more disparity, less worker power, and no meaningful change in favor of Worker Ownership. Biden is doing a pretty good job for liberals, who wish to maintain the status quo, but for people who actually desire substantial reorganization of the economy into a worker-owned format, he’s done absolutely nothing.
I answered, and it isn’t bad-faith. I said leftists are understandably upset that liberals are liberals, then you got upset and tried to convince me that actually, liberalism is good. It doesn’t work like that.
You’ve explained to me your philosophy on what these words mean and how they apply a sufficient number of times; I don’t need to hear it again. I am asking a specific factual question. Just firmly repeating your worldview is not going to lead me to suddenly start to agree with it. You must normally have these discussions with very suggestible people or something if you expect it to work that way.
What specific policies has Biden done that made specific factual things in the world worse? This isn’t like a gotcha; I’m expecting there to be a real and somewhat-valid answer. I have my list of good things he’s done, but I wanted to hear your list first and genuinely hear you out. I thought that you were engaged enough in the topic that we’d actually be able to talk about it with that as the starting point, but I’ve given you a couple of chances now and you’ve just been trying to berate me with your worldview instead, so maybe not.
What are things that have gotten worse under Biden, to you? Oil extraction and Gaza, I assume; what else?
Let’s start over, we are clearly talking past each other. I’m going to list a set of assertions that I believe, as a leftist, that are common among leftists.
Capitalism itself is bad, and in constant decline.
Liberalism is a continuation of the Capitalist status quo, and thus Liberals seek to continue Capitalism.
By continuing Capitalism, disparity continues to rise. Letting a fire burn without putting it out is a bad thing.
Where among those 3 statements do you draw disagreement? I’ll retract my half-serious claim of you as a liberal, and ask you as a fellow leftist: where do you disagree with me here?
Following the previous 3 statements, we can look at Biden. Biden has done close to nothing to move away from Capitalism and towards Socialism. He’s put a few band-aids on a gaping wound, but that inaction in the face of the gaping wound is itself allowing the situation to deteriorate, such as skyrocketing housing prices, continuing rises in disparity, and an increasingly strangled working class.
I’ll add: I advocate for voting for the lesser evil. What my original comment was about, however, was getting liberals to understand and accept that they face a fundamentally different set of electoral issues from right wingers. Right wingers are fascists, and have openly fascist candidates to vote for. The GOP is actively appealing to the far-right. The DNC, however, is appealing to the center-right, and feels entitled to the votes of leftists because they aren’t as far-right.
That’s the key! Because the DNC is content with maintaining the Capitalist status quo, in the eyes of leftists, the DNC will always be a lesser of two evils. Even an extremely competent DNC would still be an extremely competent liberal Capitalist party, and would still be the lesser of two evils.
If a Democrat tries to do something left-wing, and it doesn’t work within the system, and they have to pare it back to something more establishment-friendly […]
Buddy, I mean this in the nicest way, but this is exactly the point
I’m gonna start categorizing the weird bad faith responses I get. I call this one the “Mission Accomplished”: Where you simply announce proudly that the other person has just unwittingly proven your argument without you even needing to make any kind of statement at all, and just start running victory laps for yourself, hands held proudly in the air.
Aha! A concrete statement. This one, I can respond to.
“Liberal reform is not enough. It’s a positive thing for the world if good things happen obviously, but by no means enough. Continuing to work for genuine reform is necessary if any survivable society is going to continue on earth beyond this generation. On the other hand, letting Trump end the world prematurely is obviously also something we should avoid if we want to be in a position to do any of those things.”
Fixed it for you. I would love a landscape where Biden is the weird right-wing outlier because we have left-wing candidates in the ring. How do we get there?
Or, are you suggesting doing away with voting and political parties entirely and just living in a libertarian utopia where clearly the people with all the money and corporate power won’t instantly take over even more so than they already have? You tell me.
You asked for examples of direct action earlier - this is it bud.
Dissenting to a party that refuses to take meaningful action against threats to ‘any survivable society’ is the bare-minimum action you could possibly take. Voting is the one tool that is given to you by a liberal democratic system to voice support or opposition, and if you’re unwilling to use that tool to pursue necessary action, then i’m really not sure there are any actions you would find more agreeable to your strikingly liberal disposition.
A worker’s union exercises power by threat of a worker’s strike, a leftist coalition exercises power -in part- by threat of withholding support. You wouldn’t blame a worker’s union of being in favor of layoffs for going on strike to win concessions, at least not unless you’re a boot-licking capitalist.
Dissenting to a party that refuses to take meaningful action
I think this is where the whole thing breaks down for me. This just seems like a childish point of view.
Yes, the system is rigged. The rich people are in control and steering the bus towards the cliff. I agree completely with putting someone in charge who will actually apply the brakes. I just don’t see how, if one guy is trying to grab the wheel and steer it towards the cliff on purpose, and one guy has been trying to do some good things but it doesn’t seem like it’s enough to actually avoid disaster, it’s productive to sit back and say “Well they’re both going off the cliff so I will not get involved.”
Voting for someone isn’t like a tribute you give to a ruler. It’s exercising control over what is going to happen. And I don’t see that voting for a candidate who isn’t 100% of what you need to see is in any way mutually exclusive with working for the level of change that will actually be required (whether in primaries, direct action, organizing better candidates for future elections, etc).
It’s like you’re sitting back and saying “well I will not help things get better until you do all the work for me and put someone on my plate who I will perfectly support and then I’ll show up and vote for him.”
if one guy is trying to grab the wheel and steer it towards the cliff on purpose, and one guy has been trying to do some good things but it doesn’t seem like it’s enough to actually avoid disaster, it’s productive to sit back and say “Well they’re both going off the cliff so I will not get involved.”
I am getting involved. I’m appealing to the guy -and the party- at the wheel to fucking steer it the other way.
It’s exercising control over what is going to happen
Yup
And I don’t see that voting for a candidate who isn’t 100% of what you need to see is in any way mutually exclusive with working for the level of change that will actually be required
It’s not that Biden ‘isn’t 100% of what we need to see’, it’s that he’s 100% in support of the things we really need to change. And if me withholding my vote is of enough concern that it’s tantamount to enabling a fascist dictator to take control, then maybe the democrats should consider taking some meaningful action.
But frankly, that it’s been almost 5 months since Israel started their genocide and they are still cow-toeing around publicly criticizing it -let alone continuing to actively aid it- tells me that they must not actually need the support anyway.
It’s like you’re sitting back and saying “well I will not help things get better until you do all the work for me and put someone on my plate who I will perfectly support and then I’ll show up and vote for him.”
LMFAO ok this has to be a bit, there’s no way this is genuine
-liberal attempts at reform without radical change
-more liberal attempts at reform without radical change
-more liberal attempts at reform without radical change
Again, none of this is actually to the left, it’s still liberalism and still center-right. For people who believe the system itself is fucked and needs to be restructured, of course moderate reform isn’t going to be enough.
You’re proving my point. Biden is decent for a liberal, at being a liberal. That is not a leftist. Trump is great at being a fascist, and fascists love to vote for him. Leftists have to bite their tongues and fall in line with a moderate right winger that will never attempt to appeal to them.
Did you even read my comment?
I did. My point is that you’re recasting the real situation into a totally cockeyed reinterpretation. If a Democrat tries to do something left-wing, and it doesn’t work within the system, and they have to pare it back to something more establishment-friendly but that still helps a whole bunch of people when they get it passed, I don’t think it’s accurate to blame the Democrat for that situation. You can have a productive conversation about “yo that sucks how do we make this less corrupt,” and tons of ideas within or not-within the system can help get that done.
It’s like ten people standing around a burning building, and five people are trying to put out the fire while five are actively trying to stop them and light new fires, and you’re saying this whole organizational structure is fucked (accurate) we have to fix it (accurate) what the fuck you five guys who are trying seem like your firefighting efforts aren’t working (here’s where it breaks down for me).
You want to bring in better more qualified firefighters? Fuckin’ A, man, that sounds great. In the meantime, I think letting the ones who are trying continue to try is not somehow a bad thing, definitely better than helping the ones who are lighting new fires take control.
Also, “fall in line with” is a very weird phrasing. I’ve never in my life fallen in line with a Democratic politician. (“voting out of fear” is another). I just vote for the person I think will be better than the other person, because I want to have a better outcome instead of a worse one. Why are you searching for ways to cast that pretty sensible decision in some kind of negative emotionally charged light?
(Also, I have asked this of people of your ilk I have talked to on Lemmy before: What should I do, instead of voting, to support leftist change within the US? What is your activist organization, what is your movement to work for change? Because working for something better than the current establishment Democrats sounds great, yes. How can I do that?)
Democrats aren’t doing anything left wing, nor are they trying to, though. That’s my point. If the Democrats were trying to do left-wing things, then leftists wouldn’t always be so upset that they have to bite their tongues, plug their nose, and vote for the center-right candidates.
For your burning building analogy, that is only accurate if you’re a center-rightwinger. The actual analogy is if you have 2 groups of people, one starting 3 fires and putting out 2, and the other starting 3 fires and trying to stop the other person. Both groups are starting fires, one is just better. As a leftist, both liberals and fascists are still bad, though liberals are not nearly as bad as fascists, both are still negative.
Again, I vote for the center-right wingers, and criticize them as they continue to fumble the ball. I’m not advocating for better liberals, I’m advocating for leftists. I am not supporting abstaining from voting, or voting for fascists, I’m asking you to look in the mirror and realize that while Biden may be great for you, he’s far from a leftist and isn’t actually implementing leftist change, so leftists will understandably be upset.
You haven’t had to fall in line because you aren’t a leftist, and liberals are doing a good job in your eyes. Simple as. Leftists have to fall in line and vote for the lesser of two evils, while you get to vote for what you perceive as at minimum positive change.
To answer your question at the end, it greatly depends on where you are. Actual, leftist change comes from grassroots movements, so it will depend on your area. I’m not asking for you to dox yourself, so instead I’ll give generalized information. Unionize your workplace, join something like the IWW or Food Not Bombs, educate and advocate, volunteer for local leftist politicians that may upset the liberal or fascist status quo, read theory, teach others, and donate to strike funds. Those are all pretty achievable for most people, at least partially. You don’t have to be a union leader or anything, but every bit helps.
I’ve noticed this a lot on Lemmy: It’s a common arguing technique to simply tell the other person what their views are, and base your argument on that. In this case, you are 1,000% wrong. Wrong as hell.
I was registered third party for like the first ten years of my voting life, because I was disgusted with the Democrats. Bernie Sanders has been the only presidental candidate I’ve been genuinely happy with in recent memory. Don’t tell me what my views are, and assume that I must be saying what I’m saying because of what those imaginary views are.
I think this is where our fundamental disconnect comes in. Before I say anything else, I want to ask, what are things that have gotten worse under Biden, to you? Oil extraction and Gaza, I assume; what else?
Don’t be surprised if I label you a liberal if you’re coming in batting full force for tepid, liberal Capitalist reform, and that leftists should be happy with it because it is good change.
Either way, Capitalism continues to erode, resulting in more disparity, less worker power, and no meaningful change in favor of Worker Ownership. Biden is doing a pretty good job for liberals, who wish to maintain the status quo, but for people who actually desire substantial reorganization of the economy into a worker-owned format, he’s done absolutely nothing.
Whoops, we took a little turnoff towards the bad faith highway I guess.
You just told me even more aggressively what I believe. I asked a simple factual question:
I answered, and it isn’t bad-faith. I said leftists are understandably upset that liberals are liberals, then you got upset and tried to convince me that actually, liberalism is good. It doesn’t work like that.
You’ve explained to me your philosophy on what these words mean and how they apply a sufficient number of times; I don’t need to hear it again. I am asking a specific factual question. Just firmly repeating your worldview is not going to lead me to suddenly start to agree with it. You must normally have these discussions with very suggestible people or something if you expect it to work that way.
What specific policies has Biden done that made specific factual things in the world worse? This isn’t like a gotcha; I’m expecting there to be a real and somewhat-valid answer. I have my list of good things he’s done, but I wanted to hear your list first and genuinely hear you out. I thought that you were engaged enough in the topic that we’d actually be able to talk about it with that as the starting point, but I’ve given you a couple of chances now and you’ve just been trying to berate me with your worldview instead, so maybe not.
What are things that have gotten worse under Biden, to you? Oil extraction and Gaza, I assume; what else?
Let’s start over, we are clearly talking past each other. I’m going to list a set of assertions that I believe, as a leftist, that are common among leftists.
Capitalism itself is bad, and in constant decline.
Liberalism is a continuation of the Capitalist status quo, and thus Liberals seek to continue Capitalism.
By continuing Capitalism, disparity continues to rise. Letting a fire burn without putting it out is a bad thing.
Where among those 3 statements do you draw disagreement? I’ll retract my half-serious claim of you as a liberal, and ask you as a fellow leftist: where do you disagree with me here?
Following the previous 3 statements, we can look at Biden. Biden has done close to nothing to move away from Capitalism and towards Socialism. He’s put a few band-aids on a gaping wound, but that inaction in the face of the gaping wound is itself allowing the situation to deteriorate, such as skyrocketing housing prices, continuing rises in disparity, and an increasingly strangled working class.
I’ll add: I advocate for voting for the lesser evil. What my original comment was about, however, was getting liberals to understand and accept that they face a fundamentally different set of electoral issues from right wingers. Right wingers are fascists, and have openly fascist candidates to vote for. The GOP is actively appealing to the far-right. The DNC, however, is appealing to the center-right, and feels entitled to the votes of leftists because they aren’t as far-right.
That’s the key! Because the DNC is content with maintaining the Capitalist status quo, in the eyes of leftists, the DNC will always be a lesser of two evils. Even an extremely competent DNC would still be an extremely competent liberal Capitalist party, and would still be the lesser of two evils.
Does this make sense to you?
caging kids at the border, for one.
allowing russia to invade ukraine isn’t exactly a highlight.
he lied to me about a $2,000 check
he broke a union strike
i don’t follow everything the man does because frankly i think electoral politics are a sham, but you can’t possibly think he’s made the world better.
Buddy, I mean this in the nicest way, but this is exactly the point
I’m gonna start categorizing the weird bad faith responses I get. I call this one the “Mission Accomplished”: Where you simply announce proudly that the other person has just unwittingly proven your argument without you even needing to make any kind of statement at all, and just start running victory laps for yourself, hands held proudly in the air.
“Liberal reform is ineffectual from a leftist perspective because it stops short of changing the system that is being opposed”
Is it weird because you don’t understand it? Or because it’s uncomfortable?
Aha! A concrete statement. This one, I can respond to.
“Liberal reform is not enough. It’s a positive thing for the world if good things happen obviously, but by no means enough. Continuing to work for genuine reform is necessary if any survivable society is going to continue on earth beyond this generation. On the other hand, letting Trump end the world prematurely is obviously also something we should avoid if we want to be in a position to do any of those things.”
Fixed it for you. I would love a landscape where Biden is the weird right-wing outlier because we have left-wing candidates in the ring. How do we get there?
Or, are you suggesting doing away with voting and political parties entirely and just living in a libertarian utopia where clearly the people with all the money and corporate power won’t instantly take over even more so than they already have? You tell me.
You asked for examples of direct action earlier - this is it bud.
Dissenting to a party that refuses to take meaningful action against threats to ‘any survivable society’ is the bare-minimum action you could possibly take. Voting is the one tool that is given to you by a liberal democratic system to voice support or opposition, and if you’re unwilling to use that tool to pursue necessary action, then i’m really not sure there are any actions you would find more agreeable to your strikingly liberal disposition.
A worker’s union exercises power by threat of a worker’s strike, a leftist coalition exercises power -in part- by threat of withholding support. You wouldn’t blame a worker’s union of being in favor of layoffs for going on strike to win concessions, at least not unless you’re a boot-licking capitalist.
I think this is where the whole thing breaks down for me. This just seems like a childish point of view.
Yes, the system is rigged. The rich people are in control and steering the bus towards the cliff. I agree completely with putting someone in charge who will actually apply the brakes. I just don’t see how, if one guy is trying to grab the wheel and steer it towards the cliff on purpose, and one guy has been trying to do some good things but it doesn’t seem like it’s enough to actually avoid disaster, it’s productive to sit back and say “Well they’re both going off the cliff so I will not get involved.”
Voting for someone isn’t like a tribute you give to a ruler. It’s exercising control over what is going to happen. And I don’t see that voting for a candidate who isn’t 100% of what you need to see is in any way mutually exclusive with working for the level of change that will actually be required (whether in primaries, direct action, organizing better candidates for future elections, etc).
It’s like you’re sitting back and saying “well I will not help things get better until you do all the work for me and put someone on my plate who I will perfectly support and then I’ll show up and vote for him.”
I am getting involved. I’m appealing to the guy -and the party- at the wheel to fucking steer it the other way.
Yup
It’s not that Biden ‘isn’t 100% of what we need to see’, it’s that he’s 100% in support of the things we really need to change. And if me withholding my vote is of enough concern that it’s tantamount to enabling a fascist dictator to take control, then maybe the democrats should consider taking some meaningful action.
But frankly, that it’s been almost 5 months since Israel started their genocide and they are still cow-toeing around publicly criticizing it -let alone continuing to actively aid it- tells me that they must not actually need the support anyway.
LMFAO ok this has to be a bit, there’s no way this is genuine