Research says involuntary celibate men make "fundamental errors" about what women want in a partner.

Research says involuntary celibate men make “fundamental errors” about what women want in a partner.

  • yesman@lemmy.world
    54·
    11 个月前

    Malignant misogyny isn’t mental illness.

    We can address problems with male alienation, isolation, and loneliness without having to coddle terrorist reactionaries.

        • The_Lopen@sh.itjust.works
          10·
          11 个月前

          Providing mental help does not equal women accepting abusive partners, how tf did you make that mental leap?

          Edit: Upon reread, I see that you were genuine, and I actually do need to check and correct myself. Apologies.

          • mojofrododojo@lemmy.worldEnglish
            11·
            11 个月前

            how tf did you make that mental leap?

            did you read the link or just jump into the comments with a rageon? because the link explains how the right wing thinks of this shit. I didn’t make it up, they did.

            • The_Lopen@sh.itjust.works
              9·
              11 个月前

              My bad, I assumed we were actually staying on topic - getting incels mental help. I’ll correct myself and assume from now on that any comments that fail to make sense are bad-faith attempts to co-opt a post.

              • mojofrododojo@lemmy.worldEnglish
                5·
                11 个月前

                yeah I got that. that’s why I responded:

                that depends on what you mean by addressing

                because there’s a wide array of responses and I’m genuinely curious to learn what the OP of this thread meant. Not because I was attacking their premise, but because there’s past history of this tact - that the world should accommodate a percentage of the population who have shown misogynistic tendencies. To which I say: nah. nope. naw.

                • The_Lopen@sh.itjust.works
                  2·
                  11 个月前

                  I apologize. I’ve been up for twenty-four hours, the last twelve of which were on a delayed and then stranded bus in a snow storm. I was taking out my frustrations on you, and was needlessly snarky.

                  Upon reread, I see that you were genuine, and I actually do need to check and correct myself. I’ll leave my earlier comments up with an edit.

        • Evia@lemmy.world
          6·
          11 个月前

          Why would I mean apologism? They need their worldview reprogramming because their current worldview is misogynistic and false. Reprogramming would include comprehensive challenging of negative attitudes and modelling of correct, non-misogynistic beliefs. It should be done by people with psychological training because they have the skills and knowhow needed to reprogramme someone’s thinking but it doesn’t particularly need mental health professionals or collusive, misplaced sympathy.

      • cheese_greater@lemmy.world
        3·
        11 个月前

        I think you’ll find that when you have what you need and dissolving that which you need not, there’s way less room for crap like racism and the -phobias

      • yesman@lemmy.world
        19·
        11 个月前

        trauma response

        What trauma? listening to Jordan Peterson? If being rejected makes you hate women, then you were an entitled asshole to begin with. Nobody is owed affection, companionship, or romance.

        This attitude is an insult to lonely men people everywhere, who everyday cope with romantic failure without regressing into a chud. Incels are deplorable people; fuck 'em.

        • agitatedpotato@lemmy.world
          26·
          11 个月前

          Sigh. Just say you don’t know shit about mental health and move on with your performative outrage for any time you hear the word incel. I don’t have time to teach an idiot about trauma informed perspectives and it’s clear you’re not looking to learn anything, so I’m going to ask you to shut up and listen to the mental health professionals, like the one’s in the article who did the study. Because your little rage fit over incels is NOT more informed than studies conducted by professionals, and in fact is much more regressive so congrats for a perspective that make the problem you pretend to care about worse. Must feel nice to teach those incels a lesson though I’m sure you showed them.

          • totallynotarobot@lemmy.world
            12·
            11 个月前

            This is a really gross and condescending take. Outrage over incels isn’t performative, and if you think so you’re either stupid or a psychopath. Just because you don’t personally face threats of bodily harm doesn’t mean it isn’t real.

            Go outside.

            • agitatedpotato@lemmy.world
              14·
              11 个月前

              Whats gross and condescending is looking at people who need mental help then saying “no they dont” simply because you don’t like them. You’re a moron who wants to feel better than another group of people and can’t see past your own dislike to actually solve a damn problem. If you don’t want it to be solved just say so. Just say “id rather do nothing an keep watching schools get shot up so I can look down on a group”. Your beliefs sound a lot more like a psychopath than beliefs that try to make it so incels dont exist anymore. So I repeat, you’re a moron.

              Also if you’re outrage demands no solutions but to ignore the problem, then it’s exactly performative, because you don’t want to change anything, you just want to yell. Tell me whats more performative then outrage with no change?

              • totallynotarobot@lemmy.world
                3·
                10 个月前

                That was completely incoherent and makes a hell of a lot of assumptions. I didn’t say half of what you’re crediting me with.

                You’re unproductive. And not even addressing what my actual comment was about.

            • agitatedpotato@lemmy.world
              7·
              11 个月前

              So don’t you want to take steps to stop that or do you want to ignore it and just hope schools stop getting shot up?

              • mojofrododojo@lemmy.worldEnglish
                1·
                10 个月前

                I didn’t say that, I said I dislike them. Just as I dislike idiots like you who jump to the dumbest conclusions automatically.

          • 2fat4that@kbin.social
            4·
            11 个月前

            This was a well composed response but it doesn’t change the fact that nobody cares about incel mental health. And they shouldn’t because incels don’t really matter. Forget them. They are so far down the list of groups that need support it’s laughable. They are a joke and should be regarded as such. Your recognition of incels empowers them which warrants suspicion.

            Also, your faith in mental health professionals is concerning. Are you, by chance, Canadian?

            • agitatedpotato@lemmy.world
              14·
              11 个月前

              Your recognition of incels empowers them which warrants suspicion.

              Sure bud. Recognizing problems is bad, and ignoring them is how we fix them. Huge brain take. If you really need find a group to feel superior to, you do you, but I suggest therapy and a better world view as a healthy alternative. You seem more eager to let the problem perpetuate, which warrants ACTUAL suspicion.

              • shiroininja@lemmy.world
                6·
                11 个月前

                it’s on them to fix themselves. not society. I’m alone, divorced, but I still don’t blame women or society. that’s the incel’s problem: lack of personal accountability, entitlement to a woman, society blaming.

                it takes two to make a relationship, and I’m tired of my fellow man being offended at having to work at having a relationship

                • Narauko@lemmy.world
                  1·
                  11 个月前

                  You sound like the barely middle class referring to the homeless. “It’s on them to fix themselves, not society. I smoked pot and drank in college, but I didn’t fall into addiction and lose my job and my home. That’s the homless’ problem: lack of personal accountability and willpower to get clean and sober and maintain a job.”

                  Making substance abuse a stigma instead of recognizing it as a physical and mental health condition hasn’t helped the homeless population pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Recognizing incelism as needing mental health treatment is no different. If it’s obviously a problem, it affects society, maybe we should look at it instead of turning out noses up and pretend not to see the problems.

                • petrol_sniff_king
                  1·
                  11 个月前

                  I’m alone, divorced, but I still don’t blame women or society.

                  I’ve got this everybody.

                  Ahem.

                  Clap

                  There you go. Your one, single congratulations.

                  Can you get out of the way now? Give psychologists the space to do their god damn job?

              • 2fat4that@kbin.social
                1·
                11 个月前

                Incels aren’t a problem for regular people. They only really exist in social media which is, obviously, not real life and cannot hurt you. Unless, you want them to? Did a troll hurt your feelings? Did he call you a cunt on Tinder? Did they call you “bud” in a sassy reply? You gave them power by being so fragile and now you want to give them more recognition. 80% of incels will grow out of it. This article, and you, are validating Jordan Peterson. Congratulations, you’re an incel ally.

            • barsoap@lemm.ee
              13·
              11 个月前

              They are so far down the list of groups that need support it’s laughable.

              Are you somehow thinking that “Giving incels help” means “enable them to continue being assclowns”? Because that’s the only way I can make sense of what you’re writing.

              Giving potential offenders help in the form of enabling them to form relationships which aren’t abusive is helping not just incels, but also the people they would victimise. This isn’t a zero-sum game helping them to get their shit together is a win-win scenario.

              • agitatedpotato@lemmy.world
                6·
                11 个月前

                Thank you. It’s not like they’re getting “special incel” mental health, its literally just normal mental health treatment that we have to find a way to get to them. Everyone here seems to think therapists are going to star talking like podcast bros, no, we just need more mental health everywhere, and that somehow pisses them off. Inhumane fucks.

                • barsoap@lemm.ee
                  1·
                  11 个月前

                  Everyone here seems to think therapists are going to star talking like podcast bros, no,

                  Vaguely gestures at Dr. K

  • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
    50·
    11 个月前

    I can see that. These guys don’t know how to date/flirt etc they didn’t have the same milestones others kids did. They should have learned when everyone in their cohort was learning. Imagine if you didn’t learn the fundamentals of any subject but had to keep going to harder and harder levels. End up with the dating mind of a 13 year old trying to deal with 23 year olds. Of course you need experience to get experience like a fucking zen riddle so they fall even further behind. Partners don’t want to deal with the awkward insanity of a boy in a man’s body.

    • Dashi@lemmy.world
      29·
      11 个月前

      To be honest, dating 20+ is a shit show. The things i learned about dating in my teens didn’t help me dating in my 30’s. Sure they have issues dating but we all do. It’s the willingness to learn, adapt, and care for someone else that i don’t see in incels and that isn’t learned from dating in your teens. They seem to blame outside forces for their issues and not seek to improve themselves

      • endhits@lemmy.world
        8·
        11 个月前

        You can only blame yourself so much before it causes so much emotional anguish that you turn your frustration outwards.

      • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
        7·
        11 个月前

        Well for me it made a big difference. I don’t think me and my wife would have stayed together had it not been for other woman I had dated prior. Learned how to have an argument, how to show random acts of kindness, gotten the nerve up to tell them when they are hurting you unintentionally, etc. This stuff didn’t come naturally to me.

        • Dashi@lemmy.world
          4·
          11 个月前

          100%! I am not saying learning these things doesn’t help. But blaming lack of dating in their teens for an incel becoming who they are is not a valid justification in my opinion.

    • mojofrododojo@lemmy.worldEnglish
      20·
      11 个月前

      Partners don’t want to deal with the awkward insanity of a boy in a man’s body.

      nor should they be required to; the enormous amount of work we put on women to make relationships work is already crushing. This reminds me of the screeds about how “liberal women will need to compromise for the good of the demographics of the country, they’ll need to date conservatives of course!” - THEY REALLY THINK THIS SHIT. They feel they’re being DISCRIMINATED against for their views hahahaha, that’s how fucked up they are. https://www.nationalreview.com/magazine/2021/07/12/political-discrimination-as-civil-rights-struggle/

      it’s obscene.

      https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/3675477-young-women-are-trending-liberal-young-men-are-not/

      • EatATaco@lemm.eeEnglish
        3·
        10 个月前

        “liberal women will need to compromise for the good of the demographics of the country, they’ll need to date conservatives of course!” - THEY REALLY THINK THIS SHIT.

        I think I know where this argument is coming from, but it’s a gross misrepresentation of what was actually said. Neither of your links support that anyone thinks this is the case. In fact, from the very conservative one, even without having access to the full article, they very explicitly note, after having said that only 6% of college women would date a trump supporter “While people are free to discriminate however they wish in dating, this attitude bleeds into problematic spheres such as hiring and social toleration.” It’s clear that they are trying to make the argument that this dating bias is an indication of a deeper bias. It’s still dumb, but I’ve yet to hear anyone of merit actually argue “liberal women will need to compromise for the good of the demographics of the country, they’ll need to date conservatives of course!”

        • mojofrododojo@lemmy.worldEnglish
          2·
          10 个月前

          well if you only need evidence to shut up, then:

          https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/11/22/marriage-polarization-dating-trump/

          https://fair.org/home/wapo-tells-women-if-you-want-marriage-compromise-with-misogyny/

          is it unrealistic? sure is, the entire premise is facile - and mostly fabricated as that second link points out. It’s the fact that conservatives took to their opeds to decry the ‘discrimination’ that makes me sick. lilly white rich misogynists’ don’t need affirmative action dating programs.

          • EatATaco@lemm.eeEnglish
            1·
            10 个月前

            That opinion piece you link to mainly makes the argument that it’s good for the individual as “on the whole, while politically mixed couples report somewhat lower levels of satisfaction than same-party couples, they are still likely to be happier than those who remain single.”’ To be fair, in passing, it also mentions it’s good for society.

            Of course, it also clearly notes that “marriage isn’t for everyone. Nor is staying in a physically or emotionally abusive marriage ever the right choice.” So this whole claim that they are saying women should “compromise with misogyny” is completely untrue. It’s basically pointing out what should be obvious to everyone: who a person votes for does not tell the whole story about them. Granted, don’t get me wrong, voting for Trump really makes me raise an eyebrow, but I’m very liberal and work in a very mixed field and know plenty of people who voted for Trump and they are all good people. These are all people I spend a lot of time with and while I would vehemently disagree with them on politics and policy, I can also see that they are decent people. While I am lucky that my wife and I align very well, including politically, I think assuming that I could never have a fulfilling love life with someone who voted for Trump seems pretty narrow-minded.

      • CulturedLout@lemmy.ca
        9·
        11 个月前

        Try interacting with women without the expectation of an intimate relationship. And I don’t mean “be friends for a while with the end goal of getting with them”. I think a big issue is seeing women as an achievement instead of as people.

        • Cringe2793@lemmy.world
          4·
          11 个月前

          The thing is women don’t want male friends as well. They are taught by society that men are all perverts and dangerous. So when men try to make friends, they’re automatically suspicious or just straight up reject them.

          • boogetyboo@aussie.zone
            5·
            10 个月前

            What? Most women I know, including myself, have male friends. What are you on about? Are you doing a bit, per your username?

            • Cringe2793@lemmy.world
              1·
              10 个月前

              Must you insult people when you reply? Is that really necessary? I’m not gonna reply anyore so don’t bother, since you seem to lack basic respect.

      • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
        2·
        11 个月前

        I am not sure exactly what to advise, I imagine the longer you don’t do something about this the worst is going to get. So maybe be proactive?

    • SuperSpruce@lemmy.zip
      4·
      11 个月前

      This is exactly my situation and it seems to get more dire every year that I stay single. I wish I could upvotes you a thousand times.

      • Augustiner@lemmy.world
        3·
        10 个月前

        Hey man, I had some of the same anxieties about being a late bloomer, never finding a girl, not knowing what to do if someone showed interest etc. This will probably not be new advice to you, but here we go:

        No matter how old you are, it‘s never too late to start things. Go out and have some fun, socialize with women, try dating, do hobbies with women involved etc. Invest in yourself, have a basic level of hygiene and dress socially acceptable. At some point you will find someone who is into you, and if you are open and up front about your lack of experience, they will probably overlook most of the early dating blunders.

        Just don’t go into it all with the expectation that something has to happen, or that if you do the right things someone has to be into you. It’s ok to fail, it’s ok to be awkward, you learn a lot from it.

        If you wanna talk privately about this stuff, shoot me a dm.

    • LerajeEnglish
      35·
      11 个月前

      Everyone already knew that, yes, but in order to get these who control the purse strings to yield cash to address it, it needs formalising.

        • LerajeEnglish
          7·
          11 个月前

          Adequately funded universal healthcare would, yes. We have universal healthcare here in the UK but it has been starved of resources and doesn’t pay it’s key staff well at all. No one here questions the quality of the staff - from cleaners all the way up to senior consultants - the vast majority who work in the NHS are dedicated, compassionate highly skilled people but without resources and funding it can feel pointless.

          Mental health takes a distinct back seat. The waiting list just for an assessment and diagnosis for ADHD for example is 2 years.

    • Augustiner@lemmy.world
      11·
      11 个月前

      Even though we all knew that stuff falls to the ground if you leave it unsupported, we still needed someone to gather some scientific data, find reasons why and prove that gravity exists. That’s just how science works.

  • cheese_greater@lemmy.world
    19·
    11 个月前

    I wonder if this outlook is more a sign that these people need some help getting started and in a productive tradjectory. Pretty sure this would be me if I hadn’t gotten laid+decent-pay, and had to live with family/random people, never having anything of my own…

    • HubertManne@kbin.social
      8·
      11 个月前

      I don’t know about that. I was pretty fine before my first. Place of your own and decent pay. Yeah. everyone needs that. Adults should be able to at a minimum have an efficency of their own while being able to pay at least minimal bills and if they split a multibedroom with roommates or rent out a room from a house they should be able to have a bit more spendy of a life. That should be the minimum and be easy to get. Not something you have to work hard to achieve.

      • cheese_greater@lemmy.world
        2·
        11 个月前

        I feel like you were mildly pushing back then ended up convincing yourself to the point you basicaly agree. Not that I want people to not be able to be satisfied even if they have to share a place, I’m just way to eclectic and crave freedom the moment the lock goes click lol

        • HubertManne@kbin.social
          2·
          10 个月前

          well I think the place of your own and independence is important for all adults but the virginity thing not so much.

          • cheese_greater@lemmy.world
            1·
            10 个月前

            Haha i was def referring more to the living situation tbh. I just mean people get obsessed often if they can’t obtain or experience something culturally significant aligns with one’s fundamental drives and for males it can be a more socially alienating thing to not have one notch under your belt.

            Like if incels are who they are online with chicks or they were not having luck with being decent/kind pre-incel, it can create a vicious spiral of antisociality and mental degradation

            • HubertManne@kbin.social
              2·
              10 个月前

              yeah all the same I did not have sex till my upper twenties. granted I was in a challenging college major and did a year of a phd program and then after a few years of working in my field decided to change it which meant more study. So I had a lot to occupy me.

              • cheese_greater@lemmy.world
                2·
                10 个月前

                Its not a crime aha. It honestly scares me how much people are willing to compromise, give up, and tolerate just to “have access” to sex. I wouldn’t tradea thing that a toy can give me for a one-time like $100 investment lol.

                Obviously there’s more to it than that but I wouldn’t sacrifice anything for its sake

                • HubertManne@kbin.social
                  1·
                  10 个月前

                  Well anyone who wants any kind of relationship, be it it sexual, social, or business, has to compromise. My way or the highway with everyone will certainly result in being alone in all things. But that does not mean giving up stuff that is important to ones self. Generally compatibility comes about when both the people compromising are giving up either relatively unimportant or at least not very important things and of course it has to happen with both. Then there must be benefit that outweighs the sacrifice so that the relationship is strong. Sex itself should be its own thing and should not be considered a benefit, usually anyways sometimes someone is just amazing and you got to consider that a benefit. Sex though should be its own thing as there is a compatibility that is needed for that.

  • AdolfSchmitler@lemmy.world
    16·
    11 个月前

    I mean there’s so many underlying issues with incels and trying to overcome learned helplessness is no small task. But an idea that helped me was that there is either a problem with me and what I’m doing, or there’s a problem with all women. One of those issues I can take steps to try and improve, the other is completely out of my control and nothing I do will ever change that.

    If you are incapable or unwilling to go through an honest introspection of yourself then things will never change for you imo.

    • AnalogyAddict@lemmy.world
      15·
      11 个月前

      You have very aptly demonstrated the core problem with the incel worldview: that women are somehow fundamentally different from men to the point that they are women first, and barely human.

      The Venn diagram of traits of women and men is almost a completely overlapping circle. They aren’t some alien species with different fundamental needs, drives, and capabilities.

      The problem with men-only spaces isn’t that they are only men. It is that they have been used historically to bar women from participating in things that would give them power.

      You don’t need to exclude women to give men access to male friendships. It’s just that men are unused to having to work for emotional things when women are present. It’s time for them to take initiative and learn to treat women like human beings instead of objectives.

        • AnalogyAddict@lemmy.world
          4·
          10 个月前

          Women can roughhouse to bond. They do it all the time. But that isn’t what I’m talking about, and you know it. Apparently having female friends hasn’t taught you much about broader dynamics of women’s issues.

          Women get women only places to be SAFE from men, not because they can’t handle men having access to power. The premise is very different. For example, I’d have no problem with men having male-only gyms if they were so afraid of being sexually attacked by women they couldn’t work out in peace.

          The problem isn’t men needing anything, so you can take that poor pity cap off and get out of the corner. The problem is men expecting everyone else to supply them with what they need because any other option doesn’t even cross their mind.

          If you seriously think women aren’t largely treated as objectives, your head is so far in the sand, there’s no hope of me digging it out. Good luck to you.