• Sterile_Technique@lemmy.world
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    11 months ago

    Would fucking love it if we just got rid of tipping all together. Employers -not customers- should be responsible for providing employees good pay.

    Factor the difference into up front price of the food/service and be done with it.

          • AtariDump@lemmy.world
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            11 months ago

            If Businesses don’t get a share of tips Square’s model dies and SE with it.

            Not my problem to figure out their business model.

          • Misconduct@startrek.website
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            11 months ago

            Ordering from a place that you know pays workers in tips and not tipping makes someone more of a bitch. You’re not changing anything because without legislation there will never be enough people to make it happen. The system is too established. At this point claiming to be working towards change by not tipping is just making an excuse because you weren’t ever going to tip and it’s not fooling anyone.

      • Annoyed_🦀 @monyet.cc
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        11 months ago

        Definitely. In my country, tipping aren’t expected but it’s a pleasant thing to receive in service industry, in US of A, tipping is expected and people will vehemently defend the status quo.

        • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          It’s expected because waiters can’t make minimum wage without it. It’s not defended because people like that waiters are paid so little, it’s defended because they’re paid so little and politicians, until now, have seemed to have no interest in changing that. Like so many things in this country, the people have to come up with a patchwork solution just to keep others alive because the politicians don’t care.

          So yes, I will defend tipping until this is fixed everywhere in the U.S. And I doubt it will be fixed any time soon. I’ll be surprised if it’s even fixed in these five states.

          • Annoyed_🦀 @monyet.cc
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            11 months ago

            It has already become your culture, like it or not. Whether you tip or not, employer has to make up the different if the tip doesn’t add up to the minimum wage, so you’re essentially subsidising the employer as of now. Fixing the minimum wage will not get rid of tipping culture either, and exploitative employer knows that, so they will continue to pay the bare minimum and expect the customer to foot the bill.

            I wonder if everyone reaction will change if we change “Tipping” to “Subsidising”, because that’s what the current status quo are.

            • Dojan@lemmy.world
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              11 months ago

              This hits the nail on the head. Exploitative employers will always only pay the absolute minimum they can get away with. If you’re going to have a federally mandated minimum wage, then that wage will need to be adjusted frequently.

              Has it been adjusted frequently?

              In my country we don’t have a minimum wage. Wage ranges are determined by the market and negotiations with unions. It gets really easy to figure out which employers do the bare minimum and which don’t.

          • SeaJ@lemm.ee
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            11 months ago

            Tipping is still expected here in Washington where the minimum wage for tipped employees is the same.

            • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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              11 months ago

              Sure, because it’s easier to have the same policy everywhere than to not know whether or not you should be tipping depending on the state you’re in. I think that makes sense. Do you really want people from Washington going to Oregon and not tipping because they think they don’t have to?

          • VikingHippie@lemmy.wtf
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            11 months ago

            Yeah, I’ve always thought of it that way too: abhor the underpaying bosses and the politicians who allow it and advocate for change, but until then keep tipping generously no matter the level of service.

            If you get bad service, your server might be having a rough day and/or the place might be busy or otherwise make their job of serving you more difficult. That doesn’t mean that you have a right to deny them rent and food money.

            • Sterile_Technique@lemmy.world
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              11 months ago

              Pretty much where I’m at. Not going to protest a shitty system by taking it out on a waiter, but will vote to abolish the whole thing and put the burden on the employer where it should be.

              That doesn’t mean that you have a right to deny them rent and food money.

              That’s the insane part - you do have the right to deny them rent or for food money. You shouldn’t, but under the tipping model you absolutely do.

              • VikingHippie@lemmy.wtf
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                11 months ago

                I mean yeah, you LEGALLY have the right, I meant that you morally and ethically absolutely don’t.

                • Sterile_Technique@lemmy.world
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                  11 months ago

                  Which is why I’m opposed to tipping as a system. It’s predatory. It transfers a moral responsibility to customers that should be on the employer, which provides the foundation for guilt-based social engineering targeting the customer, and a reliance of the employee on the success of that social engineering - the alternative being not getting paid because some asshole didn’t think you refilled his drink fast enough.

                  Imagine if a hospital or something was run like that. Your insurance covered the doctors’ and admins’ pay, but the nurses, techs, and support staff all just rely on tips! *shoves an iPad with a credit card reader onto your lap*

                  It’s insane that that model is legal for any business.

                • JCreazy@midwest.social
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                  11 months ago

                  I beg to differ. I think morally an ethically not letting society dictate. What you do with your own money is the correct stance. If you go to your job and you get paid that is your money and you should absolutely under no circumstances be obligated to tip because society has made you think that they need it to live. That’s your money that you need to live it’s absolutely ridiculous that people make statements trying to guilt trip you into thinking that you owe it to someone else to give your hard-earned money to them because their employer decides not to do it. Screw that. And no I’m not saying don’t tip, what I’m saying is don’t support businesses that expect you to pay their employees wages. I significantly cut down eating at restaurants because I don’t think that I should be obligated to pay employees wages, especially with the ridiculous prices. The restaurants charge for food nowadays. I absolutely hate the narrative of people guilt tripping other people because they choose not to tip. That is their obligation in right and they should absolutely not feel bad about it whatsoever.

              • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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                11 months ago

                Not going to protest a shitty system by taking it out on a waiter, but will vote to abolish the whole thing and put the burden on the employer where it should be.

                That vote / change will never happen if you don’t push back on tipping, that’s just the human nature of the situation.

            • AA5B@lemmy.world
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              11 months ago

              You’re assuming you owe the server rent and food money. Where are you the employer? How does that server deserve special benefits over the person at the drive through, the busser, the stocker at the grocery, etc? You’re an enabler, keeping an abusive system alive to benefit one small category at the expense of everyone else

              Granted, I tip generously as well, but that’s because I’m a pussy who doesn’t stand behind my beliefs

              • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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                11 months ago

                but that’s because I’m a pussy who doesn’t stand behind my beliefs

                Hey, at least you’re honest about it. :)

              • VikingHippie@lemmy.wtf
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                11 months ago

                The cost of paying those people at the very least minimum wage is factored into the price of your purchase, except for the busser, who shares tips with the servers.

                Because that’s not the case with servers, you tip in order for the server to get paid for performing a service for you.

                You’re an enabler, keeping an abusive system alive to benefit one small category at the expense of everyone else

                No. I’ve been clear from the start that tipping is a thing we have to do temporarily so that servers don’t starve or become homeless before we finally fix the system.

                • AA5B@lemmy.world
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                  11 months ago

                  Maybe the only way to finally fix the system is to stop tipping, so servers will go elsewhere until pay comes up. Normally I disagree with this line of thinking because it’s not easy to change careers, but serving is usually a “job” not a career. If we’re worried about minimum wage, I claim that many minimum wage jobs are easier to switch among. If a job requires special skills and knowledge, it deserves pay as such.

            • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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              11 months ago

              That doesn’t mean that you have a right to deny them rent and food money.

              Their bosses and/or their lack of wherewithal in obtaining a job that pays enough to meet their standard of living is responsible, not the customer of the company.

          • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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            11 months ago

            So yes, I will defend tipping until this is fixed

            Can’t defend the status quo and expect things to be fixed, they’re mutually exclusive of each other. Human nature demands that.

            • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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              11 months ago

              You absolutely can defend the status quo until things are fixed and work for things to be fixed. Maybe you think a change should come at the expense of waiters feeding themselves or their families. I do not.

              • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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                11 months ago

                You absolutely can defend the status quo until things are fixed and work for things to be fixed.

                It hasn’t so far, and human nature being what it is, makes it a safe bet that it won’t. Having said that, I hope I’m wrong.

                Also, its ethically wrong to put the onus on the customer to support the status quo, that’s the employer responsibility to take care of their employees in all ways, and an employees responsibility to not work for any boss that won’t do that.

                Maybe you think a change should come at the expense of waiters feeding themselves or their families. I do not.

                YES! Tortuuure them, make them SUUUFFEERRRRR!!1!!11!!! /s

                If the guy in the next stall asks me for a roll of toilet paper (because he’s out), I’m going to give him a roll, as a civic duty to take care of each other.

                If the guy in the next stall asks me to come over and wipe his ass for him, he’s on his own.

                • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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                  11 months ago

                  That’s a lot of words to say you don’t give a shit if a waiter can’t afford to feed their kids as long as you don’t have to give them any of your money. I hope you don’t go to restaurants if you feel that way.

        • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          and people will vehemently defend the status quo.

          Well, server employees will, because they don’t want to deal with the loss of pay and/or the upheaval in their salary intake. No one likes a negative change to how they make a living and pay the bills.

          Having said that, generally speaking, is it people, or ““people”” (aka corpo shills/bots) that are defending the status quo? Certain corporations have a big interest in maintaining the status quo and shaping the narrative towards that end.

        • TheSanSabaSongbird@lemdro.id
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          11 months ago

          Not only that, but there’s a very strong case to be made that from a purely economic perspective, a tipless system is better for everyone.

        • Misconduct@startrek.website
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          11 months ago

          We’re not defending the status quo we’re stuck with it. But yes, going to another country and ignoring their customs would make people look at you like an asshole because you’re being an asshole unless you genuinely didn’t know. We’re not dancing around delighting in tipping people. We just know that not tipping hurts absolutely nobody except the server. Maybe you’re comfy with making someone else suffer to prove a point but I’m not.

          • Annoyed_🦀 @monyet.cc
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            11 months ago

            You put too much emotional charged word into my mouth, thing i did not said, and that’s really tells a lot how you feels about tipping culture in US and will never spare a thought on why it’s as it is. I in no way should be responsible for the wellbeing of another’s employees, that is the responsibility of their employer. Not tipping isn’t making someone else suffer to prove a point, that’s like saying me not being a doctor is making someone else suffer. That’s some ridiculous kind of mental gymnastic.

            What tipping does is continuing the justification of paying them subminimal wage and demand the customer to foot the bill and hope it will make more than the minimum wage as employer might have to pay their worker more if the wage + tip didn’t add up to minimum wage. That’s some late stage capitalism stuff right here you’re supporting, or rather, “stuck” with.

            • Misconduct@startrek.website
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              11 months ago

              I told you in plain words how I feel about tipping culture. How you choose to interpret that is your business.

              I don’t need you to lecture me about what goes on in my own country or about how we feel because you’re not even talking from experience. Go ahead and “fight capitalism” by stiffing people on tips if it makes you feel better. You’re not helping anyone though so stop fooling yourself. You’re just being cheap.

              • Annoyed_🦀 @monyet.cc
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                11 months ago

                Well if you say so, i don’t need you to lecture me about being “generous” either. Take your opinion elsewhere if you don’t want it to be challenged in a conversation.

                What a toxic country. 🙄

    • agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works
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      11 months ago

      Unless “we” change it via legislation, that’s never going to happen. Let’s explore how it would play out as an individual restaurant initiative:

      Restaurant raises staff wages, raises prices to cover the increase. Even if you disclose it on the menu, customers don’t care: they see prices 20% higher, they choose to eat somewhere with cheaper menu prices. This is frequently what happens when restaurants try to do that.

      If the restaurant increases server wages less than what they would make in tips, the servers will leave for another restaurant. The benefit of tips is that the harder you work, and more tables you take, the more money you make. Good servers can make $50+ an hour if they hustle.

      Source: 8 years experience in the industry.

      • AtariDump@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        The benefit of tips is that the harder you work, and more tables you take, the more money you make. Good servers can make $50+ an hour if they hustle.

        I shouldn’t be paying my server’s wage; the restaurant should.

        Name one other job (that isn’t in the food service industry) where the buyers subsidize the worker’s salary voluntarily.

        • agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works
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          11 months ago

          Literally every other contractor. But that’s irrelevant to the point.

          This is the way it is. Whether or not it’s a good system, it’s the system which exists. Changing the system will require a transition. If that transition comes from individual restaurants changing their policy, they will have 1) staffing issues as no server will stay when they could make more elsewhere, 2) customer issues as customers will prefer restaurants with lower menu prices, even if the total is the same.

          This isn’t a value judgement, or a defense, this is a statement of fact. The only change that will stock would have to come from legislation. Societal systems have considerable inertia.

            • Misconduct@startrek.website
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              11 months ago

              Why are you so stuck on that? Other industries not doing it doesn’t matter. It’s the system in place now and would take a big effort from everyone (aka legislation) to change. That’s the point. They’re not even defending the tipping system.

                • fkn@lemmy.world
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                  11 months ago

                  Many services… Maid service in hotels and hotel services in the industry as well. Taxi/goods delivery(not just food, but things like target 2hr delivery)…

                  I’m not saying it’s good… And I think the fundamental problem exists in these jobs as well… Typing should just not exist. Japan, for example has no tipping… It’s ducking fantastic.

            • agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works
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              11 months ago

              It’s entirely irrelevant.

              Name one industry with security theater like air travel. Name one industry with lobbying like politics. Name one industry with subsidization like agriculture.

              The tipping situation is a product of a problematic history, but it is what it is. The entire system is based on it. Saying something is unique has nothing to do with the process to change it.

              • Tlaloc_Temporal@lemmy.ca
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                11 months ago

                Security Theatre is an overreaction to a single event. Most of it can also be trashed. Also, the air travel industry didn’t have security theatre for nearly a century.

                Lobbying? Very similar to shareholders and boards of directors. Other governments also have varying amounts of lobbying, so it’s definitely not intrisic to the system.

                Lots of industries get massive subsidies: Oil & Gas, Aerospace, Healthcare, Nuclear, Research, Energy, Automotive, Semiconductors, Real Estate, IT, many big corporation have squeezed a subsidy out just by threatening to leave a state! To some extent, every public service is a subsidy, just where the government owns the ‘company’. Some governments (probably) don’t do subsidies, but lots do, and one could argue that some system like subsidies is necessary for a well functioning government & country.

                However, I agree that the uniqueness of a practice says very little about how good it ultimately is for anything.

                • agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works
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                  11 months ago

                  My point has nothing to do with whether a practice is good or not. It’s about how deeply entrenched the practice is, and the practical complexities of uprooting the practice. Bad practices still require significant consideration in undoing.

                  My point is that “we should do away with ___” is an impotent sentiment by itself. Who is we? How are “we” going to actually do it? What does the transition period look like? What are the consequences? These are questions that, pragmatically, must be taken into consideration when implementing any large change, totally independent of any value judgement of that change.

              • AtariDump@lemmy.world
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                11 months ago

                Name one industry with security theater like air travel.

                The events industry. Do you really think those bag checks do anything with how quickly they “look” in your bag before going into a venue?

                I did one; now you do yours.

                • agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works
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                  11 months ago

                  Again, this “argument” is totally irrelevant, but:

                  If that counts the same as TSA, then hair/nail stylists, massage therapists, valets, Uber (and taxi and limo) drivers, hotel housekeepers and concierges are all traditionally tipped.

                  But again, that doesn’t matter. The system is what it is. Changing it is an option, but that does have practical considerations associated with it.

    • Kecessa@sh.itjust.works
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      11 months ago

      Thing is, no one would accept to pay what’s written on the menu if they charged enough to cover what people pay in tip, it’s all psychological manipulation.

      Prices would need to increase by about 20% and you wouldn’t have a choice to pay it anymore, contrary to tips. Or you accept that servers now only make minimum wage.

      • theherk@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        That’s interesting. In It works all across the world exactly how you say it wouldn’t work.

        • bjorney@lemmy.ca
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          11 months ago

          To be fair, in the rest of the world there aren’t tipped establishments competing with next door no-tipping establishments. People are bad at math, a menu of $13 + tip options seems cheaper at a glance than a menu of $15 no tip options. We are talking about the country where the 1/3rd pounder burger failed after all

          • theherk@lemmy.world
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            11 months ago

            This is actually true and raises the most important practical point about it, in my view. Convincing people to give up tipping isn’t too difficult; I think we’re getting there. But transitioning to a tip-free culture is very difficult.

        • Kecessa@sh.itjust.works
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          11 months ago

          Do servers make over 70k/year everywhere in the world?

          That’s something people don’t realize in North America, restaurant servers make fucking bank! If they complain about not having money it’s because of the restaurant culture of going out after every shift.

          • vithigar@lemmy.ca
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            11 months ago

            Some restaurant servers make bank. Some don’t even make enough with tips to bring them up to minimum wage. Yes, the employer is supposed to top them up to minimum wage when that happens, but if I had a nickel for every labor violation in the US, well I’d be making a lot more than minimum wage.

            • AA5B@lemmy.world
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              11 months ago

              This lack of fairness even within the industry, is yet another reason to end tipping culture. Some servers make excellent money but all too many make little. This is yet another institution benefitting a few well off at the expense of everyone else

          • nomous@lemmy.world
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            11 months ago

            What’s your experience in the restaurant industry?

            Good servers make about half of what you think they make. Your number is reserved for senior sommeliers and chefs; the only way FOH hits that is by selling drugs to BOH or working 80hr weeks.

            If it paid that well there’d be no staffing issues at all, think about it.

            • Kecessa@sh.itjust.works
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              11 months ago

              At my last job servers are making 300+ in tip every 8h shift and get their salary that’s way above minimum plus they have full benefits including a pension fund and the business still has a hard time finding staff because the restaurant industry in general is a mess including the people working in it that think grass is always greener elsewhere.

              Edit: Forgot, they’re unionized too

                • Kecessa@sh.itjust.works
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                  11 months ago

                  I’m just pointing out that saying “If they were paid that much we wouldn’t have trouble finding staff!” is bullshit. With even better conditions my previous employer has trouble finding staff.

          • theherk@lemmy.world
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            11 months ago

            There is a lot more to economy than some number in some currency. There are servers in many first world countries making wages where they are able to pay for their homes and have social services like healthcare, all while customers at their places of employment pay the listed price.

            70k USD means nothing in isolation, without respect for local economy and cost of living.

      • JCreazy@midwest.social
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        11 months ago

        That’s the thing though, they already charge enough to cover what people pay in tip but guess what? That doesn’t make them enough money. Next time they raise prices. They won’t take responsibility for it, they’ll blame it on the economy, but never the owners and shareholders that are making more profit than ever.

        • Kecessa@sh.itjust.works
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          11 months ago

          As a person who’s been in the restaurant business, no, the vast majority of restaurants in North America don’t make a large enough cut to pay their servers 35$/h. Most are always a couple of bad months away from closing. There’s a reason why it’s the type of business with the highest “turnover” rate for the business itself.

          Now if you want restaurants to give servers the same wage they’re making now it means all prices need to be marked up about 20% (since people tip based on price after taxes) and in the end the customers pay the same thing, they just don’t have a choice about it.

          • AA5B@lemmy.world
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            11 months ago

            Yes, just like everywhere else I have to spend money, why can’t I know how much I pay by looking at the prices? Why can’t we all be honest here?

    • Rediphile@lemmy.ca
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      11 months ago

      The only people who have the power to eliminate tipping are the customers. Even if employers randomly started paying servers $50 an hour, people could still tip…and many probably would to get that feeling of moral superiority. And that is sort of irrelevant anyway because how the fuck are the customers supposed to know the servers wage anyway? I literally have no idea what my server (or hostess or line cook or after hours cleaning crew staff) makes at the last place I ate at. Do you?

      It’s really not complicated. If customers stopped tipping, and servers can’t support themselves and therefore they are forced to quit and move towards literally any other industry with a higher/stable wage. Then employers either go out of business altogether or, more realistically, raise wages to replace those workers who quit since the employer would like to keep making money instead of not making money. And thus, menu prices go up to account for the lack of tipping.

      No one has ever been able to provide me a scenario where tipping ends without servers quitting due to inadequate/unstable income. But I’m certainly open to suggestions!

  • mechoman444@lemmy.world
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    11 months ago

    Please! For the love of God! Get rid of tipping!

    I hate tipping! As the consumer I should not be responsible for proving a living wage for someone else’s employees!

    • kameecoding@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      as a European I have to say both the Tipping culture and the not showing the full price in stores with VAT included is just mindblowing.

      It’s literally a culture of hiding true costs, weird af.

          • Raiderkev@lemmy.world
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            11 months ago

            Again, it’s prevalent in the US market, not sure about others. They advertise say $199 / night, but when you go to check out, there’s something like a ~$35- $50 /night resort fee to “pay for amenities like WiFi/ gym /pool”. You can’t reject paying the fee, so your hotel room is actually like 25% higher than advertised.

            • Paddzr@lemmy.world
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              11 months ago

              Yeah, that’d be quite illegal down here. I spent basically half a year living in hotels straight due to work all across the UK and primarily London then continued for a few years after. So we’re likely talking +300 nights. I have never seen an additional charge.

      • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        It’s literally a culture of hiding true costs, weird af.

        Makes me happy though in this day and age that people are waking up to this fact, and are starting to push back on it.

        In the past corporations/governments thought people were a lot more unaware, than they are today.

      • wieson@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        It’s a culture of trying to get away with whatever makes the most profits. We also have that, but there are some reasonable laws working against that. One of my favourites is the duty to display per kg or per litre price. Before that, shops made the package sizes deliberately confusing.

        • TheSanSabaSongbird@lemdro.id
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          11 months ago

          We actually do have that in the US as well, but it’s typically in very fine print and a lot of people don’t even know about it.

          • marx2k@lemmy.world
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            11 months ago

            I don’t think there’s any law like that in the US. If there were, 2 out of 4 national supermarket chains local to me are breaking the law and have been for years

      • wolfpack86@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        Have lived in both eu and us.

        Agree, but the challenge on tax is that it’s not harmonized across municipalities. This means that stores that are across the street from each other may have identical prices/profit margin and a different net price to the consumer. This would lead to consumer preferences biased by physical location and have lots of other weird side effects. You can see this in areas that border state lines when the tax is appreciably different.

        Step one is a harmonized tax rate, but that’s easier said than done.

        • Tlaloc_Temporal@lemmy.ca
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          11 months ago

          The true cost is different no matter how it’s advertised, no? Harmonized tax is great and all, but lying about price is still bad, irrelevant of the actual price.

      • TheSanSabaSongbird@lemdro.id
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        11 months ago

        It’s really not that weird at all. It’s a simple consequence of the EU having better consumer protection laws. Unfortunately the far right in the US is a lot stronger than in most of Europe and has been since the post-war era.

        We also, in the US, have an old and antiquated system that was deliberately designed to be difficult to change because the founders had to convince the slave-owning class that abolition couldn’t be forced on them if they agreed to join the newly-formed union. How did they do that? You guessed it! By making the Constitution almost impossible to change, which is one reason why it required the bloodiest war in our history to end slavery.

        Again, there’s nothing especially “weird” about it. As is true of a lot of contemporary reality, it’s largely a consequence of history.

        Interestingly, tipping culture is also at least tangentially a product of slavery as well, but that’s a bit more complicated so I’ll save it for another comment.

        And if you’re starting to suspect that a ton of what ails the US can be traced directly back to slavery, here’s a hint; you may be on to something!

        That said, it was the European colonial powers who brought slavery to North America in the first place, which kind of brings us full circle.

      • ☆Luma☆@lemmy.ca
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        11 months ago

        It’s not okay. I can hear some of my customers’ anxiety when they struggle to tip me. Some people lord it over me like I should revere them for their blessing. There is an unnecessary layer of stress to the customer service routine for everyone involved except the owner who benefits from this system. Not to mention some businesses pool their tips and share it with everyone, sometimes redirecting these funds into unscrupulous items like snacks without consent. >:(

        Tips don’t motivate me to provide great customer service to my customers. Tips serve to maintain cheap labor, but more important to me is how they erect social barriers. I can’t blame someone for wanting or being motivated by tips when they’re stuck near the bottom of the socio-economic ladder. I’m there too so I understand, but there’s just no reason for tips when we can get/provide great service without adding layers of paranoia; When we can provide a satisfying quality of life for everyone in the process with a not-so-simple wage increase (and God forbid, better budgeting and management from business owners).

        They also in general make my job harder, especially when an old person who’s basically blind can’t find any of the buttons or follow simple directions (PRESS 3 FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, MARIANNE)

        • ☆Luma☆@lemmy.ca
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          11 months ago

          I’d like to supplement that I’ve had access to my various employer’s records multiple times… because why lock the admin computer.

          With my current employer, my entire wages for the month are paid for with net profits in a single day thanks to the skeleton crew we operate. I get to work knowing every other day is going straight to my boss’s luxurious life-style because it’s certainly not coming back here.

          Don’t be surprised when you hear of another staff walk-out~

          Fuck tips, support good living standards for everyone!

      • Mamertine@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        It’s not socially acceptable to not tip servers in a full service restaurant in the USA. It’s becoming a required social norm to tip fast casual.

        The pandemic really changed the tipping norms in the USA.

      • mechoman444@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        No. I actually kinda do. Like if I’m out with friends I literally get judged if I tip poorly let alone if I don’t tip at all which is social suicide.

        And if I have a coupon for a meal, say 50% or something like that I still have to tip on the original amount before the discount was applied.

        Moreover, and most importantly in some restaurants tipping is the only source of income the server gets. Regardless of how I feel about it I am still responsible for this person’s wage.

        I hate tipping culture.

    • TangledHyphae@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      I was going to say this but fear of mass downvotes kept me quiet. Glad I’m not the only one. I’ve worked for tips but I’d rather just work for a reasonable wage instead, remove the guesswork and chances for abuse.

    • Tlaloc_Temporal@lemmy.ca
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      11 months ago

      One way or another, you’re paying those employees wage. One of them doesn’t get taxed or advertised is all.

      • ME5SENGER_24@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        Yes and no. All tips are supposed to be reported to the IRS. Whether they are or not is not really relevant. What really matters is that the customers aren’t forced to do an owners job. If an owner needs their customers to prop up their employees then the owners shouldn’t be in business.

        I used to make $2.35/h when I was in the service industry. Without my customers I would’ve been fucked. What’s worse is on a slow night, I really did get fucked.

        • spader312@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          I used to make $2.35/h when I was in the service industry. Without my customers I would’ve been fucked. What’s worse is on a slow night, I really did get fucked.

          I think that should be the point, employees should not be taking on the risk of a business doing poorly. That’s the business owner’s responsibility and risk, to be mitigated by them. Not screwing over a waiter because it was a slow night. Or because they were unlucky to work a tuesday night over a busy Saturday night.

  • DeGandalf@kbin.social
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    11 months ago

    As a german the whole tip system in the US is both redicilous and hilarious to me.
    We have tipping here, too (we literally call it “drinking money”). With the difference, that it’s pretty much voluntary and if you don’t have much money (e.g. as a student) noone will expect you to tip.
    Having tips be part of the actual wage totally defeats the point of them…

      • AA5B@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        This is actually a great reason for ending tipping. I used to feel like I was on the server’s side, slipping them cash the business couldn’t steal, but I never use cash anymore so have no idea who it’s going to. Also, businesses are getting more sleazy with required “tips” and fees, and it’s all one giant tax fraud no matter which way you put it.

        Actual prices on the menu are better for the customer, actual pay is better for the server, accounting for everything is better for the business and accurate reporting is better for all of us who depend on services paid for by taxes

      • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        Are you a true American if you don’t shaft your employees for every penny that you can though?

        No, but a true Capitalist, yes.

        (Sad of me to write that, as there used to be a time where companies made good products and accepted reasonable profit margins, going for the win-win scenarios. Today’s Capitalism seems all about the win-lose scenarios.)

      • brandocorp@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        11 months ago

        https://time.com/5404475/history-tipping-american-restaurants-civil-war/

        After the Constitution was amended in the wake of the Civil War, slavery was ended as an institution but those who were freed from bondage were still limited in their choices. Many who did not end up sharecropping worked in menial positions, such as servants, waiters, barbers and railroad porters. These were pretty much the only occupations available to them. For restaurant workers and railroad porters, there was a catch: many employers would not actually pay these workers, under the condition that guests would offer a small tip instead.

        “These industries demanded the right to basically continue slavery with a $0 wage and tip,” Jayaraman says.

    • DBT@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      I was so confused the first time I went to Germany. I asked someone there about tipping and they said, “you can, but you don’t have to.”

      That didn’t really clarify it enough for me so I just tipped like I do in the US. Didn’t want anyone thinking I was a jerk.

    • tiredofsametab@kbin.social
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      11 months ago

      As an American and former tipped employee, living in a country without tips is so much better. However, there are some groups trying to make tips happen here in Japan. If you get good service, tell the manager or corporate. If you’re a regular, give them an actual small gift (this happens anyway because people exchange gifts when they go on vacation and such). If it’s a bar employee, buy them a drink. I like this much better.

  • solrize@lemmy.world
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    11 months ago

    “Ballot measures pending in Michigan, Arizona, Ohio and Massachusetts, and a bill being reintroduced in Connecticut”. There.

    • CosmicTurtle@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      There’s a loop hole where companies don’t have to pay minimum wage if tips amount to the minimum wage that would have been earned by the employee.

      It’s a shitty way for companies to not pay their employees and expect customers to pay them.

  • fat_stig@lemmy.world
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    11 months ago

    While I abhor the whole concept of tipping, the thing that really grinds my gears is that we are expected to pay a percentage of the bill for service. If I order a basic cheese pizza or a 16 ounce tomahawk steak with a big chunk of foie gras and all the trimmings the server does not have to do much extra work for the latter. But if I have to tip $5 on a $20 pizza, why the fuck do I have to tip $100 for almost the same amount of service for the steak? Sure it weighs more and you might need to make an extra trip to serve the trimmings, but WTF, the server is not providing any more value by serving an expensive dish.

    If I order an expensive bottle of wine it takes no extra effort to serve, why should I pay a shit ton more service charge?

    USA, get your shit together, this is so not right. Land of the free? My arse.

    • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      Because restaurants decided to enforce tipping by percentage after world war 2 in order to keep payroll down. They lobbied for laws around it and ran advertisements to the public. Corporate governance is a huge problem in the US and tipping is just one facet.

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    11 months ago

    It’s also bullshit that tipped workers rarely pay taxes on the vast majority of their earnings. We’re subsiding their wages, access to infrastructure, and social services.

    • abracaDavid@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      Lmao this has got to be the most misplaced anger ever. You’re mad at people that don’t even make minimum wage aren’t paying taxes on the maybe $35k a year? How about the billionaires that basically don’t pay taxes? Maybe we should deal with that first.

      • Sarmyth@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        It’s been a long time since ither of you’ve been a server, huh? They’re doing better than that unless they are part-time.

        Your point stands, that taxing billionairs is good, but a full-time server is probably doing 50k+ in all but the lowest cost of living areas. Because a tipped employee earns a % of goods sold, they are hurt less by inflation. The rising prices people pay result in higher tips. But since most places aren’t cash, only the vast majority of their tips are via card and thus recorded and reported.

        TLDR, they aren’t as bad off as people think, and they are mostly taxed correctly.

          • Sarmyth@lemmy.world
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            11 months ago

            That’s at the minimum. My friend clears 100k working fine dining, but I know that’s an exception.

            Considering a 4 top will be guaranteed, get a bill over $100 their averages have risen. And since I am in California, they get their county’s minimum, which is $17/hour plus tips. So my friends who serve part-time make about 60k annually here. Not bad for part-time work.

            This is why I think most states should be moving our direction, as the article states.

        • pete_the_cat@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          Servers aren’t getting a constant influx of people every day that they work, it varies from day to day except for the most popular places, even then tips aren’t consistent amongst different groups of guests at popular places.

          It’s not their fault that their income comes from untaxed tips because their boss isn’t paying them a taxable wage.

          • Sarmyth@lemmy.world
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            11 months ago

            All business is like this, which is why we average our earnings in these discussions.

            When I managed a grocery store where tips were super rare and never % based, the slow days were about $36k earnings, and the busy days were about $92k. Unfortunately, a server still has to be present on slow days, which may be low earning days, but often that’s balanced with another preferred shift.

          • marx2k@lemmy.world
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            11 months ago

            Did they take the job? Who’s fault is it that they’re showing themselves to be ‘taken advantage’ of?

            • pete_the_cat@lemmy.world
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              11 months ago

              Not everyone takes a job because they want to, a lot of people wait tables because they need some source of income. They’re being taken advantage of because they’re willing to work for anything.

        • meliaesc@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          For reference, Musk paid 8.3 billion in federal taxes in 2021, after all the evasion tricks. So even if the servers are being taxed correctly, who cares, it doesn’t actually impact the economy.

          • Sarmyth@lemmy.world
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            11 months ago

            It does. That’s how taxes work. Musk’s taxes don’t benefit everyone equally. The server’s taxes will be split, and the portion that goes to their state may be one that a billionaire doesn’t pay into.

            But it doesn’t matter since you’ve created a straw man argument. I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said about taxing the rich. You just take exception to me stating that servers also pay taxes for some baffling reason.

          • Rodeo@lemmy.ca
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            11 months ago

            How much is that expressed as percentage of his total wealth?

            A quick search revealed $185b, which is probably his net worth and not his total wealth, but we’ll go with it:

            8.3 / 185 * 100 = ~4.49%

            For reference, I paid over 20% of my total wealth last year.

            So I actually paid more than 4x as much tax as Musk did, relative to the amount of wealth we have.

            • meliaesc@lemmy.world
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              11 months ago

              If he paid 37 billion dollars in taxes, you would be satisfied? I find “wealth tax” to be completely separate from income tax discussions.

              • Rodeo@lemmy.ca
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                11 months ago

                I’ll be satisfied when the quality of life for average citizens starts going up again.

    • AtariDump@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      I feel like this was true when cash was more widely used, however, anytime recently I’ve been out it’s always a tip on the card (which they can’t “hide” from the govt).

      • tiredofsametab@kbin.social
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        11 months ago

        I never worked at a place that made the servers produce all of their cash tips for accounting purposes. I only knew one server who was claiming everything all the time and it was because she was trying to get a home loan and minimum wage wasn’t going to cut it (most people seemed to claim enough to make just over minimum wage so that they didn’t have to have their paycheck adjusted later).

    • AA5B@lemmy.world
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      Why? I hope this is just the first step toward the end of tipping culture. Why should servers be held out as a special category deserving higher pay? They deserve a decent wage at least minimum, just like everyone else. If businesses need to pay them more to attract employees, then that’s the free market at work. That’s more predictable, transparent, honest toward all of the business, the employee, and the customer

      • eclectic_electron@sh.itjust.works
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        11 months ago

        Servers shouldn’t be special, obviously. The obligatory tipping system we have is an complete dumpster fire. But this is taking employees who currently make $30/hr in tips and changing their minimum wage from $2/hr to $7/hr. It’s not going to change anything. How could it? Would you give up a $30/hr job to take a $7/hr job on principle? Unless you’re independently wealthy, you couldn’t even if you wanted to.

        • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          But this is taking employees who currently make $30/hr in tips and changing their minimum wage from $2/hr to $7/hr. It’s not going to change anything.

          Well at that point then the employers will need to raise how much they’re offering the employees, or the employees will look for other work. Normal capitalistic market scenario.

          Bottom line is for the employees to keep making the same kind of money, but having that be done out of the employer’s pocket, and not the customer’s pocket.

          And if the employer refuses to give up some of their profits to the employee to do that, and instead just tries to raise the prices of their products to offset, then they’ll find themselves going out of business right quick like, again, normal capitalistic market scenario.

        • Rediphile@lemmy.ca
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          11 months ago

          Would you actually just put your head down and keep working there if that happened to you? Like…why?

          Especially when Joe’s Tavern down the road is starting people off at $40/hour! It’s like the only place left in town after everyone quit and all the restaurants went under, so they got away with charging $18 a beer and $29 a burger! The owner must be making a killing…

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        11 months ago

        Tipping is “not required” the way that not cheating on an SO is “not required”. No, you’re not going to get arrested for it, but that doesn’t make it okay.

        • Rediphile@lemmy.ca
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          11 months ago

          This is more like someone I barely know and never agreed to be in a relationship with getting upset about me seeing other people.

          If you agree to monogamy, it’s cheating and unethical for sure. If you don’t agree to monogamy, cheating isn’t even possible lol.

          So if I agree to pay the listed price of an item and then I pay for it in full…

          • urist
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            11 months ago

            This is more like someone I barely know and never agreed to be in a relationship with getting upset about me seeing other people.

            But you did decide to walk into a restaurant and order, knowing full well that the employees there currently require tips to survive, yes? And you also understand that your single act of not tipping one person doesn’t change societal convention, it only hurts that individual worker?

            Your analogy is fraught. Let me revise it for you:

            This is more like someone I barely know and never agreed to be in a relationship with getting upset that I shit in their toilet without flushing.

            • Rediphile@lemmy.ca
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              11 months ago

              I never consented to any of it. And no, I don’t know what the servers make. I only know what I made as one at a specific restaurant like 15 years ago. My uncertainty is even more pronounced when I’m on vacation in an area I’ve never worked as a server.

              Can you please just let me know the actual price so I can agree to pay it or not. I just want all the information so I can make a decision. How much is the cheeseburger that says $10 on the menu? Ffs I’m hungry.

              But no, it’s like you’re afraid to give an actual price because you don’t want to risk limiting the hypothetical maximum you can scam out of some sucker.

              • urist
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                11 months ago

                I have also worked as a server, briefly, at a corporate establishment. For each well paid server there is certainly one not making enough money.

                You’re still not getting the point: you choose to eat at a restaurant. If you’re just hungry and out of time and don’t feel like tipping, you’re able to patronize somewhere where the majority of the employees wage does not come from tips. Yes, every fast food place has those rip screens now and most people are ignoring them. I’m not talking about fast food employees, I’m talking about Jan at Bob’s greasy spoon diner or Tim at Chili’s.

                So, are you really arguing for using a server’s labor without compensating them for it?

                • Rediphile@lemmy.ca
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                  11 months ago

                  I’d just like to know the price of a ‘$10’ cheeseburger so I can make an informed decision. You’re refusal to state the actual price tells me everything I need to know.

                  And I’m not buying any of the servers labor, I’m buying a cheeseburger. The only business relationship I have here is between me and the business owner selling cheeseburgers. The only reason I came here is that I’m hungry for a delicious cheeseburger.

                  Are you really arguing about this from a device produced within a system where people in sweatshops get paid far less than servers and without even any possibility of tips? You must see the irony a bit…or did you somehow tip the sweatshop kids when you bought your phone/laptop? Or did you assume the entire chain of people who produced the device are paid fairly? I mean, sure, maybe they are (as unlikely as that is). But it’s going to take a whole lot of research to determine that or even come close to determining.

                  More than anything, I’d really just like to know how much currency I need to exchange for one cheeseburger listed on the menu for $10… but since the menu can’t be trusted. I’m asking, please, how much is that cheeseburger?

        • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          but that doesn’t make it okay.

          It’s okay to not to tip for normal service.

          Tipping is supposed to be done for extraordinary service, above the call of what the employee is normally required to do for the customer.

          If the employee is not earning enough then that’s a matter for between the employer and the employee to resolve, not the customer.

          • eclectic_electron@sh.itjust.works
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            11 months ago

            Unfortunately that’s not the reality in full service restaurants in the US, where I live. Servers are reliant on tips to live. The practice is pervasive. I don’t know of a single non-tipped full service restaurant in my city.

            • Cosmic Cleric@lemmy.world
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              11 months ago

              Unfortunately that’s not the reality in full service restaurants in the US

              As someone who lives in the US and was actually at a full service restaurant just last night, I can’t agree, just depends on the place/region.

              Also, if you are basing your existence on just the goodwill of others, that’s not a smart or healthy way to live.

              Really get tired of repeating the same points over and over again, so I’ll just leave it as “everyone is the captain of their own ship”, metaphorically speaking.

              It’s okay to not to tip for normal service.

              Tipping is supposed to be done for extraordinary service, above the call of what the employee is normally required to do for the customer.

              If the employee is not earning enough then that’s a matter for between the employer and the employee to resolve, not the customer.

              • EatATaco@lemm.ee
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                11 months ago

                From all I’ve heard, wait staff actually like tipping because, if you’re good, you can make a decent amount of money that way.

                I personally would love to get rid of the tipping culture in the US, as I think we’ve passed a point where tips are just being asked for in far too many places, but the idea that tipping is bad for waitstaff is something I think they might, on a whole, disagree with.

                And where are you in the US where tipping at a full service restaurant is not customary?

  • BigTrout75@lemmy.world
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    11 months ago

    While I do tip. It does suck that eating out pretty much requires a donation because we all agree that food workers don’t make enough to live on. And I live in a State where they get full minimum. Just give the workers food and boarding and we can call it a deal, oh wait… Let’s not.

    • BaardFigur@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      Non-american here. While I tipped last time I visited, I don’t think I will do it next time I visit. It will just legitimize a system, that has to go away. Due to the way tipping and minimum wage work together, I essentially just tip the owner of the restaurant (at least to a large degree). As a customer, I have no reason to pay more than the price that is asked for

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        11 months ago

        You’re going to get banned from a bunch of restaurants then. Anywhere worth eating enforces tipping. Some of them have it already included in the bill.

        I understand your frustration but that’s going to add far more stress to your trip, will result in servers being underpaid, and could result in the police being called if you refuse to pay a tip that’s already included on the bill.

          • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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            11 months ago

            Sure thing buddy. Here you go. As for the charges sticking? Who cares? You just got arrested on holiday.

            • BaardFigur@lemmy.world
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              11 months ago

              If it’s non-optional, and they make it clear that it’s non-optional, and the amount is stated. Sure, fine. I’m just annoyed why they hide the true price from the menu. Why would they hide VAT and non-optional gratuity from it, leaving me to calculate it for myself? I’ve been to countries like France, where they actually have a flat 15% gratuity everywhere. The difference is that it is included in the menu price, so I get no surprises afterwards.

            • wanderingmagus@lemmy.world
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              11 months ago

              Then I’ll turn around and counter-sue the restaurant, and make the restaurant owner’s life a living hell for the rest of their life. Maybe they’ll even end up on the street after their house gets taken from them.

              • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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                11 months ago

                Counter sue what? They aren’t sueing you and they didn’t arrest you. The legal advice to restaurants is to have the police come even for removing people because that shifts the legal liability.

                You can’t just make it up. The courts will dismiss your car and charge you money for the pleasure.

    • Rediphile@lemmy.ca
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      11 months ago

      Most of us against tipping have absolutely worked in restaurants, which is exactly why we are against it. The only people in favour of tipping (which also have reasoning that makes any sense) are those who don’t tip and end up being subsidized by everyone else.

      • negativeyoda@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        You either worked at a shitty place or you were bad at your job.

        I used to walk with $2-300 a night a decade ago. That industry allowed me to pursue other things and I have fond memories of it. It just brings your body down and the hours absolutely suck so as to be unsustainable.

    • RagingRobot@lemmy.world
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      11 months ago

      I think people who make tips like them because they get a bunch of money randomly on nights they work. But the problem with it is that it’s random. If they are required to pay you more money then your pay check will just always have a bunch of money in it so that’s better. People can still tip if they feel you did a good job. You shouldn’t be dependent on that to live. You should be guaranteed a living wage for showing up and doing your job.

      • negativeyoda@lemmy.world
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        11 months ago

        I don’t disagree, but who makes that decision? These are the areas servers swim in

        You’re not taking a stand or making any statement besides “I’m an asshole” if you go to a sit down restaurant and don’t tip

        • RagingRobot@lemmy.world
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          11 months ago

          I wasn’t even really talking about people who don’t tip. What if the people don’t ever come in? Then you wouldn’t get paid hardly at all if you only rely on tips. The owner of the restaurant has you there to clean and babysit their business in case a customer decides to show up and all you get is like $3 an hour for it because maybe you might get a tip if the customer is nice? That’s a shit deal. It’s not fair to restaurant employees. Also making them pay minimum wage doesn’t mean people won’t still tip. They totally will because the expectation is still there.

  • Roccobot@lemmy.world
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    11 months ago

    Since Lemmy is trying to be better than Reddit, can we agree that titles should be like ‘5 US states…’? Not every person that reads news here lives in the United States 🕊️

  • werefreeatlast@lemmy.world
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    11 months ago

    The state of Texas is committed to ending slavery in the coming decade. As a first step they are proposing that minimum wage should cover an entire cardboard box living quarters. And we’re not talking shoebox size Amazon hand me downs that still have the return address tag! They will remove the tag and provide enough duct tape to seal that portion of the box. Under article 17 of the 2024 end of slavery pact, they propose that men and women under the age of 27 shall not be responsible for sealing and or weather proofing their cardboard boxes. Older people are not covered yet, but may be covered as soon as two or three more migrant babies are sold back to their respective Mexican families. Indeed, Texas is making strides to accommodate the world’s demands for fair treatment of human rights and the people who should have them.