cross-posted from: https://lemmit.online/post/1736886
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The original was posted on /r/simpsonsshitposting by /u/maninplainview on 2023-12-25 08:28:44.
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People who say “keep politics out of” anything are usually stupid. Most things are political. Implicitly supporting the status quo is political. Leaving things unsaid is political.
Usually the people who pop out that line mean “keep politics that are different than mine out of”.
But on topic, punk is extremely political. For example, please review these lyrics from The Clash “Know Your Rights”, 1982
You have the right not to be killed
Murder Is a crime!
Unless it was done
By a policeman or an aristocratNo, most things aren’t political. But punk isn’t one of them.
Care to name some media that’s about people that has no political dimension?
For example, if a story has only white people or a story has non-white people, that’s a political dimension to the story. “Political” doesn’t only mean waving a flag.
A story about rescuing a princess from a castle has a political dimension. Super Mario Brothers isn’t what most people think of as a “political” game, but that’s there. It’s saying monarchy is okay, and unremarkably so as it doesn’t really spend any time on it. That’s not even touching the gender role stuff.
A story about a boy pursuing a girl is rife with political subtext. Why is he pursuing instead of her? Why not an arranged marriage? Why not gay? When does No mean No? All of that stuff is there, whether you like it or not. It might not be noticeable if it’s the dominant paradigm, but it’s still there.
Someone might say “Well you’re just reading into things!”. Unfortunately for them, that’s like the entirety of literary analysis. Additionally, the author’s intent is one tiny sliver of what’s important, if it matters at all.
Finding a political dimension in, like, lyric-less chiptune music might be more challenging, but most stuff that involves people has a political aspect to it.
Chiptune music is made by trans folks. So, very much political.
On one hand there probably are a lot of non political things. On the other hand, once you’ve been involved exclusively into non political things for long enough you may find yourself in a very bad situation politically. Like being governed by arseholes that don’t give a damn about you or human rights but everyone thinks that they somehow represent you
Politics (from Ancient Greek πολιτικά (politiká) ‘affairs of the cities’) is the set of activities that are associated with making decisions in groups, or other forms of power relations among individuals, such as the distribution of resources or status.
That covers literally anything involving a group of people doing things.
I’d go a step further and say “punk” is by definition political, and more specifically anti-authoritarian and non-conformist.
That said, this is a relatively new usage of the word. 100 years ago it meant nothing of the sort.
Usually the people who pop out that line mean “keep politics that are different than mine out of”.
Really depends imo. A lot of political discourse naturally falls onto the same tracks towards the same repeated talking points, automatically making the worst assumptions about what people mean, being very defensive and suspicious (or even straight hateful) of anyone not proactively signalling being part of the same group. It’s important to face it and deal with it but you may want to take muddy boots off before you come in the house.
A few years ago when Trump was still in office my wife and I went to see Roger Waters in Tulsa, Oklahoma. We had 7th row seats that cost a few hundred apiece, but we had looked at getting seats in rows 1-3 but passed because they were $1,600.00 each.
Well come the night and Roger is putting on a fabulous show, but Jesus Christ he is laying into Trump hard the whole time with anti-trump videos running and pig drones flying around the room. It was awesome, you can find most of the show on YouTube if you’re interested.
Well six or eight cowboys in the first row walked out of the show, flipping off Roger Waters as they did so, yelling MAGA shit and screaming about what a dumbass Waters is and how he should keep politics out of his music…
Everyone is laughing their asses off because God DAMN, have you never read the lyrics to Pink Floyd songs? I mean, what the holy fuck.
Today I learned that Roger Waters is absolutely based. Glad to see it!
He is ABSOLUTELY not based. Look into the garbage he says about Ukraine and Russia.
From the first article I found on the matter:
The musician was invited by Russia to address the UN Security Council.
He called for a ceasefire and condemned Russia’s “illegal” invasion, but also denounced “provocateurs” in the West who he claimed were responsible.
Ukrainian ambassador Sergiy Kyslytsya called Waters’ speech “another brick in the wall” of Russian disinformation.
Yeah, either he got played or got paid, I think. But well, the people in media are not somehow godlike and not guaranteed to be correct always. If anything, that would be a cognitive bias to think so
I don’t see anything wrong with what he said. He does condemn russias actions
Yeah, but trying to play off Putin as some kind of inevitable result of western media is horse shit. He’s been anti-any-establishment for so long he’s lost perspective.
Holy shit, who did they think they were going to see perform?
Reminds me of that guy on twitter told Tom Morello that he had no business getting all political and to just stick to making music.
I think it’s wild that he’s more qualified than most politicians (BA in political science from Harvard in case anyone doesn’t know) to speak about politics but politicians want him to keep the politics out of his music.
They want him to stay out of it because he knows what they’re doing.
What machine did you think he was raging againsf, sir? The washing machine?
A printer, obviously. And I bet it was a HP, too.
Those are indeed the ragiest of rage machines.
Fuck you, I won’t do what you tell me.
THOSE WHO’VE DIED, ARE JUSTIFIED, FOR WEARIN THE BADGE THEY’RE THE CHOSEN WHITES
Smh my head, I can’t believe Rage Against the Machine went political.
god shave the queen
And her fascist reghime
I loved it when she died that song went into the charts.
Oof, I got shome bad newsh for ya
I mean, it’s possible to like bands but not buy into their ideologies. I love Propagandhi but don’t agree with all of their positions. Pretending that they don’t have those positions so you never have to interrogate your own positions is the essence of being a poser though.
True, but if politics are deeply baked into a genre it is part of the genre. Post 9/11 country is pretty right wing, I accept that, if I’m listening to it I accept I’ll get right wing content unless I seek out left wing country. Similarly if I’m listening to Appalachian folk music of the early-mid 20th Century It’s gonna be communist as all hell. It was a genre defined in part by its association with a location and time and the politics within it, namely being extremely pro unionization.
Punk is similar but it broke containment. Punk is deeply tied to anarchism and antifascism. There are punk musicians, including famous and foundational ones who aren’t, like the Sex Pistols, but the by the time the genre had solidified anarchism ran in its veins. If I go to a random punk show I expect far left, anti bigotry, anti authoritarian themes in the same way I expect themes of romance and desire at a pop show. It isn’t necessary to keep and it certainly doesn’t need to be in every song, but it’s expected and it’s inversion will be something notable.
any mid century appelachian folk recs? im staunchly pro union, sounds like my jam
Pete Seeger is the iconic one for good reason
Not Appalachian, but Woody Guthrie and Leadbelly are both excellent. Smithsonian Folkways has collected hours and hours of their recordings.
And look up the Bristol Sessions.
I mean, it’s possible to like bands but not buy into their ideologies.
I would think that’s pretty rare, except from people who absolutely do not pay attention to the lyrics or do not know how to interpret their meaning.
Propagandhi is actually a good example of a band that has some stances that you may not adhere to, but still find enjoyment in the spirit of the lyrics.
I can wave the black and red flag with them, while still eating meat and not liking hockey.
I never really considered veganism a political view… But I do like Morrissey, even though I also like meat. However, I’m not really into Meat is Murder specifically. I don’t agree with the lyrics and it’s not that great musically either 🤷🏻♂️
However, veganism isn’t really a harmful ideology, either. I can disagree with them and still respect them. It’s much harder (for me, impossible) to respect a white supremacist or other harmful/hateful groups. I have heard plenty of country songs that definitely have that kind of views embedded in it. Fuck those bands.
I should maybe clarify - I don’t find their veganism to be problematic. I just mean that I can sing along to songs like ‘meat is still murder’ without agreeing with that specific bit. But then the song ‘nation states’ comes on and I’m back to walking hand in hand with them waving an anarchy flag.
[Edit to add:
I never really considered veganism a political view…
I don’t necessarily consider it a political view. But it is a moral view, and the places where morals bump up against each other is the political part. To me.]
I hope not. I really enjoy immersing myself in political spheres I don’t necessarily agree with just to see what makes them tick, it’s really interesting to me and humanizes people I might otherwise hate as a matter of principle. Music turns out to be a really easy way to do this.
I can’t imagine I’m the only one, though it’s definitely not something I often see online.
I love classical music, but am not very religious. I’m guessing this situation, at least, is somewhat common.
Yeah and gospel music is a more extreme version of that. The religious elements can make me uncomfortable at times, but fuck if it isn’t good music.
I love the flute solos by Adolf H. Classic. Never looked into the guy.
It’s called cognitive dissonance, when a person holds two conflicting ideas or beliefs. It’s stressful to acknowledge the conflict and change beliefs and behaviours, so people instead do mental gymnastics to justify holding both.
Mental gymnastics = very painful for anyone but participating in the sport
The funny thing about art is that people can interpret it however they want, even in the most stupid ways. See the many idiots that thought/think Rage Against the Machine and Pink Floyd weren’t political.
It’s almost like
GOD SAVE THE QUEEN (AND HER FASCIST REGIME)
never happened.Good for him.
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I mean, you can have whatever opinion you want but this one in particular isn’t very helpful. Lots of new bands call themselves or are called punk.
https://bandcamp.com/discover/punk
Are you going to tell them they’re doing it wrong?
You could make an argument that there is “classic punk” like “classic rock”, and maybe people would know what you meant, but that’s not really the language as it is spoken today.
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Why do you accept “classic rock” exists alongside “rock” but not “classic punk” alongside “punk”?
Also here’s crobot. They’re tagged as classic rock: https://crobot.bandcamp.com/album/feel-this .They do a great live show
I sense “no true Scotsman” coming, though.
Poser alert!
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Exactly what a poser would say 😎
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I’m not really sure what part of your comment was an opinion, but “people don’t start punk bands anymore” is simply not true. There’s plenty of new punk acts out there, the genre didn’t just come to an abrupt halt in 1990. Just off the top of my head is IDLES and The Chats, but you can find tons of recent bands if you look.
Punk IS not was, it always has been and always will be.
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Rock
punk
classic rock
classic punk
Only if you want to start circumcising mosquitos here.
Classical as a word typically refers to the period of time the Greeks were at their height.
Classical Rock uses the spirit of the word Classical to describe this era of rock and roll as the basis for modern Rock and Roll.
Now if you want to use the term classical rock to describe an era, then no that era is gone. If you want to decide that only the period of the 70s and early 80s that punk was as you describe it then SURE punk is dead.
But punk started before the 70s and will continue long after you and I are dead.
By the arbitrary definition that punk was a genre of rock music that existed only during a certain time period… sure it was and no longer is.
I simply champion the idea that labeling punk as a genre is ironic in and of itself, to say it fits in a narrow definition is also kinda ironic.
Yes, but they won’t release new music, because then it wouldn’t be classic anymore.
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KEEP OPINIONS OUT OF EXPLICITLY OPINION-FOCUSED SOCIAL MEDIA SITES
Hmmm classic punk huh. I feel like the genre and sound has changed so much, but I’m still amazed that the identity has kept in tact. Truly a masterpiece of sounds and art 😄
Realest punk: I am a poser and I don’t care
