Despite a long track record of anti-LGBTQ+ comments and advocacy, he has insisted he can’t be a hateful person because he’s a Christian.
I think he’s got it backwards. He can’t be a Christian because he’s a hateful person.
No True Christian
I totally get your point, but I think there is validity in calling into question your right to identify as a member of a given religion when you go directly against your religion’s teachings.
Except what are the “real” teachings? How do you know? Who is the authority? Where is the solid evidence. The god of the Bible is silent on the matter of our interpretations over the centuries (if he even exists).
The Bible seems to condemn homosexuality in a few places and condemns “sexual immorality”. But interpretations of these passages and how they relate to many other passages are numerous, each person claiming to have it all figured out. Some think the OT doesn’t count anymore. Some think it still does but Jesus is essentially a get out of jail free card, some think Jesus is all about love, some define love to include various levels punishment, some believe God creates pre-damned people. Some think homosexuality is fine but the passages refer to sexual abuse. So we come back to the question: which interpretation is “correct”?
These books are translated from content written millennia ago. The gospels were written a generation after Jesus and we don’t have the sources. The oldest version of books in the OT dates centuries after the originals. Thus, evidence is weak that the originals said the same thing as the current version. We have insufficient evidence for divine inspiration in the writing, copying or translating of said materials.
When evidence is lacking then the only alternative, belief (faith) provides a very unreliable source of information.
Yes there’s no reliable manual, but generally people who were actually educated in the text mean following what has been written about Jesus: loving everyone independently of identity, forgiving people who offend you, helping the poor and the weak, refusing violence, doing funny rituals with fermented grape juice etc.
I should have mentioned I was a Christian for 40 years and did quite a fair bit of bible study so I’m coming at this as a former “insider”.
Certainly the things you list are among the main tenets that I suppose many Christians follow. Those were the main things I prioritized.
But in those decades I was exposed to a number of different schools of thought and I observed that the messages believers prioritized were not universal.
If someone claims to be “a Christian,” they are. There is no other qualification. Whether such a person adheres more or less to common Christian principles is a separate issue, let alone that there are so many splinter groups of “Christians” that the phrase “common Christian principles” barely has any meaning anyway.
I’m a lamp. Fight me.
“Lamp” is not a religion.
and ‘woosh’ is not a noise.
But a double woosh will create a gentle breeze.
Removed by mod
IDK, some people are pretty religious about their software stack.
Yeah, but are you oil based, or electricity based? That matters you know.
See it’s pretty easy to square the “I’m a lamp” circle, though. What do you mean by “I’m a lamp”? You could mean basically anything, even things you don’t mean it to mean, I could just come up with random shit it could mean and I’d be no less wrong. In a vacuum, much like identifying as a christian, it’s a pretty meaningless claim, the only commonality of the claim as it exists is that you decided to use that specific word. You know, much like a christian.
Are you a lamp cos you get turned on when I twist your switch?
Then why are things like excommunication (where you get kicked out of the religion for going directly against beliefs) a thing?
Excommunicated Catholics can still be Christians. The term means someone who believes in Christ, and everything else is negotiable. No one Christian or sect can decide what Christianity is for everyone else.
The term means someone who “follows the teachings of Christ”, not simply that someone believes in Christ. There are plenty of people/figures that believe in Christ who are not Christians. Satan, for example, is a believer in Christ who is also not a Christian.
That sounds like semantics to me, because everyone gets to interpret the teachings of Christ for themselves.
Satan is a good example, considering that the character is an amalgam of several biblical references to evil forces like the evil spirit tempting Christ, the Snake in Genesis, and the Red Dragon in Revelations. Most of the mythology of Satan is an invention of Catholic writers.
Also, not for nothing, but Satan (presuming he’s real) would not be a “believer” as much as a colleague. Satan would know for sure that Jesus was real, was really God, and was the only path to Heaven. Of course, if we presume Satan is real, and the Bible is the literal word of God, then the only rational conclusion is that Jesus is Satan. But that’s an entirely separate discussion.
That’s not correct in any way. The word “Christian” has a specific definition. If someone claims they’re a “Christian” but don’t believe in Jesus, then they’re not a Christian. They can’t be. If someone claims to be a “Catholic” but doesn’t “accept” Pope Francis as the legitimate Pope, they’re not a Catholic. I can claim to be a musician but, if I can’t play any instruments, I’m not.
Everyone knows words are stripped of their definitions on social media.
Yeah… if we used the definitions of social media, then the existence of trans people is a religious belief and wokeness is a religion. It’s the single stupidest chain of sentiment to come out since the belief in a flat earth.
If someone claims to be a “Catholic” but doesn’t “accept” Pope Francis as the legitimate Pope, they’re not a Catholic.
That’s not true. There have been quite a number of schisms in the catholic church which resulted in a split on who people thought was the pope. The guy who doesn’t come out on top in that situation is called an antipope. Sometimes it was difficult to decide in history which person was the pope and which was antipope. There have been about 40 of them with the last being in the 15th century.
The Palmarian Church is a catholic splinter group that has an antipope.
Yes it is. Catholic dogma dictates that the Pope is the true representative of God and that he functions as the literal mouthpiece of God. Schisms might be true but, according to Catholicism, there can’t be a mistake when it comes to the Pope and what he says when speaking on doctrine. It’s called Papal Infallibility.
Accordingly, that means any schisms from Catholicism, by definition, aren’t Catholic because they break the promise Jesus made to Peter.
This assumes that Catholic dogma is objectively true, and leans heavily on history being written by the victors.
That doesn’t change the fact that Palmerians consider themselves the one true catholic church and that they consider their members catholic. They would claim their anti-pope is the infallible one, not Pope Francis.
If someone claims they’re a “Christian” but don’t believe in Jesus, then they’re not a Christian.
That’s fair. It still hinges on a belief claim only. Based on a person’s other actions, you can doubt that claim, but the singular authority for what a person actually believes is what that person claims to believe.
That’s only true if that claim is made in good faith. I can claim to be a Christian all I want but, if I don’t believe in god, then my claim isn’t coming from a place of good faith (literally). I can’t make the claim and that claim be true if I’ve twisted the definition of what I’m claiming in order to make that claim. If I claim to be vegan but I have redefined “vegan” to ignore the use of animal products and am only focused on eating animals and animal products, then I’m a liar rather than what you’re inferring which is that my claim is true because I believe it to be true. A “vegan” walking around in leather pants is not a vegan, regardless of what they believe or claim.
Whether someone is a “vegan” depends on behavior in ways that “Christian” doesn’t. Even so, being “vegan” - even when the person does not directly and knowingly consume animal products - completely ignores the fact that they are indirectly making use of animal products, because they depend on a society that currently uses animal products, and where that society got to the technological level it’s at through the use of animal products over many millenia.
And we’re back to No True Scotsman, adjusting the definition to fit the circumstances.
You can play any instrument you like. Whether you’re “good at it” is a separate issue.
Sure… but if you don’t play at all, you’re not a musician no matter how much you believe it to be true.
As with “vegan”, “musician” depends on behavior in ways that “Christian” does not.
You can if you sing.
The voice is still an instrument. Stop being a pedant.
That’s not correct in any way. The word “Christian” has a specific definition.
Webster isn’t any more of a dictator of truth than anyone else. There’s a reason why Socrates spent a lot of time debating definitions with people. They’re hard to actually get right.
If someone claims they’re a “Christian” but don’t believe in Jesus, then they’re not a Christian. They can’t be.
But what if they also claim to believe in Jesus? How do you measure or test belief? How do you know what’s in the mind or soul of a person?
If someone claims to be a “Catholic” but doesn’t “accept” Pope Francis as the legitimate Pope, they’re not a Catholic.
What if they attend Catholic mass? Hell, what if they’re a member of the priesthood?
I can claim to be a musician but, if I can’t play any instruments, I’m not.
Even this is a bad argument. Aren’t singers musicians? How about rappers?
All of this debate is really over whether or not something is no longer a thing if they’re not a high quality version of that thing. I think it’s a fairly shallow debate because a wobbly stool is still a stool. A shitty singer is still a musician. A broken chair is still a chair, and similarly just because someone’s a bad Christian doesn’t mean they’re not a Christian.
… if they’re not a high quality version of that thing.
And who is the arbiter of quality, and who draws the line in the sand?
I know this has all kind of devolved into a semantic argument, and a weird discussion about Popery, and I think at this point it’s worth reiterating my initial point: If someone claims to belong to a religion, they do. Whether that claim enables anyone to make predictions or judgments about a person’s other statements or actions is another question entirely.
If someone claims to belong to a religion, they do.
I think this is 100% true for generic things like “Christianity”. When they’re more official organizations…still maybe, but if someone’s been excommunicated from something it makes sense to me from a practical standpoint that they no longer belong to that thing.
Webster isn’t any more of a…
We’re not talking about the definition from Webster. We’re talking about the definition from Jesus that was given to Saint Peter, the very first Pope. The definition here is not in question because the idea was defined by the people who founded the religion.
How do you measure or test belief?
You don’t have to. Being a Christian isn’t only predicated on believing in Jesus. If that was the case, then Satan is also a Christian because he’s personally met Jesus and, therefore, would be forced to “believe” in him. Luckily, Jesus himself supposedly stated and passed down what it means to be a Christian and those people supposedly wrote it down.
What if they attend Catholic mass? Hell, what if they’re a member of the priesthood?
Also irrelevant. A priest who molests children cannot be a Christian whether they were inducted into the priesthood or whether they attend Mass because the very rules of the religion, as instructed by their figurehead, remove them from the group based on their actions. It’s repeated numerous times throughout the Bible that Christians will be known by their actions.
Even this is a bad argument. Aren’t singers musicians? How about rappers?
It’s not a bad argument, you just misunderstood it. The voice is an instrument.
All of this debate is really over whether or not something is no longer a thing if they’re not a high quality version of that thing. I think it’s a fairly shallow debate because a wobbly stool is still a stool. A shitty singer is still a musician. A broken chair is still a chair, and similarly just because someone’s a bad Christian doesn’t mean they’re not a Christian.
No. Again, you’ve misunderstood the argument. If I started a religion today and I said that the only qualification of the religion is that people have to kiss me on the mouth, then it’s not possible for someone who has not kissed me on the mouth to be part of the religion. They can follow everything else I’ve said to the letter but, as long as they haven’t kissed me directly on the mouth, they cannot be a part of this particular religion because they are missing the central qualification. It’s not about whether someone is “good” or “bad” at doing something. It’s whether they’re doing that thing at all.
It’s not a bad argument, you just misunderstood it. The voice is an instrument.
Ok then, so who is this person that can “claim to be a musician” but isn’t?
As for the rest of your load of gish gallop: the bible, like all other texts, is up for interpretation and has been re-interpreted many times with many different takeaways. It’s not even the original text, was translated multiple times, and there is no way we can be assured that the King James Bible (Taylor’s Version) is the real deal. Definitions from it aren’t more authoritative than Webster…they’re even less so.
I claim to be Welsh, and you can’t tell me I’m not.
You’re not
It is similar to me calling myself Afro-American (I’m not). No one can stop me, but does it mean anything at that point?
I understand your point and generally agree, with an aside: The actual Nazis weren’t socialists, just because they added that to their faction’s official title.
It’s weird to me that you agree and yet have provided an excellent example disproving the entire point.
Because it’s an immature understanding of life to vote anything as black and white. Life is full color, and a bazillion shades of gray, besides. Grow up.
No one is “voting” anything as black and white, especially with regard to a question from an objective claim. If the claim is that someone is something simply because they tell you they are and you’ve disproved the claim with your example then the claim is objectively false.
Maybe you should stop telling people to grow up until you’ve done so first. In the words of Jesus, take the log out of your eye first.
There is no such thing as a religion having objective “teachings.”
It’s always been subjective.
Normal people are Jews and Muslims, and extremists like the genocidal Israeli colonizers, and the similarly genocidal Wahhabist/Salafi terrorists are still Jews and Muslims.
There is no “true” understanding of these religions.
There is no such thing as a religion having objective “teachings.”
So what is the Bible? Or the Qur’an?
Aggregations of objective teachings which contradict each other (within the same book).
The Bible is an assembled collection of curated religious stories and traditions. I can’t speak to the history of all of it but the first books of the OT were drawn from religious stories and traditions of north and south Judah and adapted to create religious (and thus political) unity by the king at the time in the face of the threat of rival, neighboring countries. Of the many gods worshipped at the time the OT books essentially retcon two of them to be one god, denounce polytheism, and create a mythical historical narrative of the country’s population. Mythical because archaeological evidence contradicts a great deal of the stories.
The NT is a collection of Epistles, gospels, etc., chosen from a large pool of similar sorts of writings and assembled into what we have today. I don’t know a great deal about what drove those selections and only vaguely know that some of the other writings were quite different theologically.
Fiction.
“No True Scotsman” is when you attempt to protect your generalized statement by placing counterexamples outside the bounds of the statement. But in the case of Christianity, people who don’t love are self-selecting out of that group by the words of the founder himself, who said “By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
I’m not saying they aren’t a Christian, and the OP isn’t saying that either. The person who is hateful is saying that they aren’t a Christian, as surely as a person who kicks puppies for fun is saying that they aren’t a dog lover. They could swear up and down later that they can’t be a puppy kicker because they’re a dog lover, but the fact that they’re kicking puppies self-selects them out of that group.
Incidentally, the wording of the fallacy here is an important point to observe. The qualifications for being a Scotsman are that someone is geographically or genetically connected to Scotland; and while there are fiddly gray areas at the edges, no one can say that you’re not a Scotsman because of a thing you do because the qualification is a connection to a place.
But the qualifications for being a Christian are explicitly a thing you do. Well, a thing you do and a thing you believe, but those two things are inherently linked by the fact that the object of belief (Jesus) commands the action (love).
The qualification for being a Christian is that you believe in Christ. That is literally it. You can be the worst person ever and be a Christian.
In fact, most Christians believe that everyone is a sinner, so being horrible is basically expected and accepted. You just need to repent eventually.
The qualification for being a Christian is that you believe in Christ. That is literally it.
No, the qualification for being a Christian is that you follow Christ. The Biblical writer James actually addresses this very thing ad absurdum by showing that, if the qualification is only to believe in Jesus, even the demons are Christians. Repentance is the first act of selecting into the group of “Christian.”
You can be the worst person ever and be a Christian.
No, you can have been the worst person ever and be a Christian. Repentance begins the journey and remains a constant throughout; as Martin Luther said in the first of his 95 Theses, “When our Lord and Master Jesus Christ said, ‘Repent,’ he willed the entire life of believers to be one of repentance.”
In fact, most Christians believe that everyone is a sinner, so being horrible is basically expected and accepted.
I’m so sorry that you’ve been given such a twisted view of this, though I totally understand why (I’ve seen this argument being made, particularly about Trump in 2016). Being horrible is explicitly not expected or accepted; Jesus himself causes people who claim faith but do awful things “vipers” and weaves a whip to use on them to prove he’s serious. The biblical writer Paul asks rhetorically, “shall I continue sinning so that grace may abound? God forbid!” And theologian after theologian for 2,000 years has said the same. If you’re gleefully continuing in being horrible, you’re proving that you aren’t a Christian; and Christians since the first century have affirmed that definition of the faith.
Finally… someone who knows what the fuck they’re talking about around here. It’s so refreshing to see someone who is actually familiar with the texts in question and the historicity of these claims.
It’s people like you that keep me wading through all this sewage and garbage.
I appreciate your kind words.
No, being horrible is not expected or accepted. The Puritans (read: Evangelicals) like to interpret it that way, and in fact they do that because it absolves them of personal responsibility. “Well, I don’t do that one really terrible thing, therefore I can feel secure and not worry about my behavior.”
In reality, sin just means error, imperfection. It’s an acknowledgement that no human can be perfect the way that God is perfect, no matter what. The correct response to this should be ongoing self-evaluation, humility, and caution against slipping into the many easy faults of humanity. We should all be repenting constantly because obviously we make mistakes all the time, and all we can do is keep trying to be better, do better. This is what you find in classical literature like Thomas Kempis’s The Imitation of Christ.
If you see someone (and I know this is common) running around claiming absolute security in their righteousness with God, then you’re seeing a person who is quite literally actively sinning.
The knock on effect of this whole situation is that Christians who don’t believe they know all and speak for God (another sin: taking the Lord’s name in vain) don’t get public attention because we don’t run around shouting at people about our religious beliefs.
It’s an acknowledgement that no human can be perfect the way that God is perfect, no matter what.
Does the scriptures speak towards why God is perfect, and why we’re imperfect?
Specifically, if we’re made in God’s image, then doesn’t that mean God is not perfect either, or that we were purposely made imperfectly?
Does the scriptures speak towards why God is perfect, and why we’re imperfect?
This is a close cousin to the problem of pain. Many smarter people than I have debated both around and around for centuries, and come no nearer an answer than when they started. The Bible gives us a how, and a who, but not a why. Honestly I wish there was more, but alas.
And who created this definition that you’re referencing? You speak as if it’s the authority on what is and isn’t Christian.
I’m not debating. Just sharing what I’ve been taught.
Incorrect. Anyone who says they are a Christian is a Christian, at least in Protestantism. You don’t have to do good works or anything of the kind to be a Christian. You just have to admit that you are a sinner, profess to regret those sins, and “accept Jesus into your heart”. That’s it.
In theory, accepting Jesus into your heart is supposed to improve your behavior, but it isn’t a requirement (obviously, with all of those rapey priests!!). As I’m sure you know, you can be the worst kind of sinner all of your life, but as long as you accept Jesus and confess your sins to Him before you die, you’re all good!
Ah Christianity…the ultimate get-out-of-hell-free card, and no one can gain-say you. It is just between you and your Saviour. It is just so darn convenient, like a drive-thru. No wonder it is so popular.
Incorrect. Anyone who says they are a Christian is a Christian, at least in Protestantism.
No. Anyone who believes in and follows Jesus is Christian; we just usually only have someone’s word to go by.
You don’t have to do good works or anything of the kind to be a Christian.
True, but a lack of love and good works proves that the repentance was a sham. “A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit.” Seasons of rebellion and momentary mistakes happen, but if a person’s life is marked by constant, unrestrained evil, they’re showing a lack of fruit that probably means they aren’t repentant.
You just have to admit that you are a sinner, profess to regret those sins, and “accept Jesus into your heart”. That’s it.
Yeah, that’s not Christianity. Not historically speaking, at least. It’s a shockingly new development and almost entirely centered on American individualism, and Christians from longer ago than the 1700s wouldn’t recognize any of that. Scripturally and historically, Christianity requires belief and repentance; which look, superficially and in the moment, like admitting you’re a sinner and accepting Jesus into your heart, but prove themselves to be something different over time.
In theory, accepting Jesus into your heart is supposed to improve your behavior, but it isn’t a requirement
Actually, it is. The writer of Hebrews says (13:12) equates sanctification with salvation. Historically, believing that one can happen without the other is just a bizarre idea because they were considered synonymous.
(obviously, with all of those rapey priests!!).
Indeed, they aren’t repentant, and are thus not Christians.
As I’m sure you know, you can be the worst kind of sinner all of your life, but as long as you accept Jesus and confess your sins to Him before you die, you’re all good!
Again, historically and theologically, this is unrecognizable as Christianity.
Ah Christianity…the ultimate get-out-of-hell-free card, and no one can gain-say you.
In America, at least. But the Church has, throughout the ages, excommunicated people for being horrible and “showing their faith to be a shipwreck.” We hear about unrepentant, non-Christian people (particularly among the puritans) who used excommunication as a weapon against those they didn’t like (particularly women), but it has been used correctly throughout history as well; to get the wolves away from the sheep.
It is just between you and your Saviour. It is just so darn convenient, like a drive-thru. No wonder it is so popular.
Individualism is popular now, to our great shame, but a community of faith urging one another toward sanctification is in the Bible, in the early church, and in the continuing line of Christianity throughout history.
Incidentally, the “drive-thru” analogy is pretty close to what Luther was “protesting” against in the first place. I think there’s another Reformation coming, and this one is going to be about the people who value and respect and love breaking away from the people who don’t.
No. Anyone who believes in and follows Jesus is Christian; we just usually only have someone’s word to go by.
This a pointless distinction. You have no knowledge of the true nature of the relationship between a person and their Savior. So, on this mortal plane you only have someone’s word. I, therefore, return to my point that anyone who claims to be Christian is a Christian, as far as any mortal being knows. I though the latter clarification was fairly obvious since I’m presumably talking to another human.
Indeed, they aren’t repentant, and are thus not Christians. (Quote referring to rapey priests)
See, now there’s the rub. How do you know the priests aren’t repentant? Even if they’ve committed hundreds rapes, they may still ask and receive the forgiveness of Jesus. The Bible does not define how many times you can commit the same sin and ask for forgiveness before Jesus doesn’t believe you anymore. The flesh is weak, but Jesus is forgiving.
The way religious communities have dealt with this epistemological problem of not being able to peer into someone’s heart is by distinguishing between what is acceptable in the community vs. what may be acceptable to God. The community judged their body and left God to judge their soul. Death-bed conversions were and are absolutely acceptable in Christianity and always have been. Indeed, torturing someone until they confess was common practice back in the day, partly because they believed in truth through duress, but also because it was a chance for a Christian to rescue his soul before death. Hate the sin, not the sinner. The sinner’s soul can always be saved right up to their last breath.
I think your grasp of what Christianity actually is may be contaminated by what you want it to be. But even what you want it to be contains the seeds of its own destruction. It is not logically consistent to say that Christianity is based on a personal relationship with God, while at the same time taking it upon yourself to judge who is a “real” Christian.
Luther tried that when the Catholic Church abused its authority and here we are again. Except this time we can’t point to a single authoritarian Catholic Church, but have to deal with a massive de-centralized super-community of corrupt churches. Luther wounded the big Dragon, but replaced it with a Hydra that keeps growing new heads, each one claiming to be the “real” Christians!
This a pointless distinction. You have no knowledge of the true nature of the relationship between a person and their Savior. […] anyone who claims to be Christian is a Christian, as far as any mortal being knows.
You know based upon how they act. If a person says they’re an avid hiker, but after observing them for a decade you never see them hiking, you know their statement was false. If you ask them after that decade and they still profess that they’re an avid hiker, you know they’re lying. This is what Jesus meant by “they’ll know you’re my disciples if you love one another.”
How do you know the priests aren’t repentant? Even if they’ve committed hundreds rapes, they may still ask and receive the forgiveness of Jesus.
Because true repentance brings with it a change in behavior. “Slipping up” once or twice with something
minor(edit: oh geez, that’s…a very poor choice of words. How about “something inconsequential”) is one thing. But big abuses, and patterns of abuse over decades, and efforts to hide or dismiss it once it comes to light shows a lack of repentance. This is what Jesus meant by “A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.” He’s speaking there specifically about false teachers seeking to harm others.Certainly, they could ask for and receive the forgiveness of Jesus. But by continuing in a pattern of sinful behavior, they prove that they have not, even if they claim to have done so.
The Bible does not define how many times you can commit the same sin and ask for forgiveness before Jesus doesn’t believe you anymore.
No, but Jesus does know the human heart, and will not be fooled by people trying to exploit apparent loopholes to look holy without actually pursuing sanctification. “You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence,” Jesus said. Or John the Baptist, who told the same corrupt religious leaders to “bear fruit in keeping with repentance.” So the Bible doesn’t give a limit because there’s a judge on the matter with perfect understanding.
Death-bed conversions were and are absolutely acceptable in Christianity and always have been. […] The sinner’s soul can always be saved right up to their last breath.
Sure, but if they believe God is that easily fooled by someone who knowingly waits until the last possible instant to “convert” so that they can sin during their lives, why would they believe even then? We’re not talking about some impersonal magic rules or an easily-befuddled genie, we’re talking about an intimate and infinite God who created the universe and knows your heart better than you do; and if you’re just checking the box at the end of your life in hopes of avoiding the flames, there’s no way it’s true repentance.
Indeed, torturing someone until they confess was common practice back in the day, partly because they believed in truth through duress, but also because it was a chance for a Christian to rescue his soul before death.
Yeah, inquisition is a terrible, dark, vile, truly despicable chapter in the church’s history. And while I think there may have been a few who were hoodwinked into believing that, the people who were teaching it had to have known that it was bunk.
I think your grasp of what Christianity actually is may be contaminated by what you want it to be.
I mean, I’m just reading the founding document, through the lens of the majority of Christians over the course of history and around the world. What it’s become in America in the past century or so flies in the face of what it has always been, and what it was intended to be.
But even what you want it to be contains the seeds of its own destruction. It is not logically consistent to say that Christianity is based on a personal relationship with God,
I don’t say that. The “personal relationship” thing is just not in the Bible. That’s a recent addition to satisfy the independent American, (edit: reintroduced from an ancient heresy called gnosticism) and nobody would’ve recognized that faith before American evangelicals
invented(edit: rediscovered) it. Christianity was always intended to be–and has historically been–practiced in community, with people in one another’s lives so that they can see sin in one another and exhort one another toward sanctification.while at the same time taking it upon yourself to judge who is a “real” Christian.
Once again, I am not making that judgment. The unrepentant person does not bear fruit in keeping with repentance, and thus it becomes obvious over time that they have not repented.
And to be clear here: I am not talking about a teenage girl who gets pregnant before she’s married. I’m talking about Fortune 500 CEOs who gleefully fleece their customers and their employees from Monday through Saturday, then show up at church on Sunday in some pretense of piety. I’m talking about police officers who worship next to Black men on Sunday morning and then have them in a chokehold on the curb on Friday night. I’m talking about politicians who claim that they’ve never needed to repent in their lives and that their favorite book of the Bible is “Two Corinthians,” and who tear-gas people protesting the murder of Image-Bearers so that they can have a photo op with a Bible that’s never been opened.
They’re all bearing unrepentant fruit, and I think it’s important to recognize them as such.
Luther tried that when the Catholic Church abused its authority and here we are again.
Indeed. I don’t remember if you’re the one I mentioned this to, but I think there’s another Reformation coming. I hope so, at least.
Except this time we can’t point to a single authoritarian Catholic Church, but have to deal with a massive de-centralized super-community of corrupt churches. Luther wounded the big Dragon, but replaced it with a Hydra that keeps growing new heads, each one claiming to be the “real” Christians!
Yes, agreed. The Second Reformation is going to be a long road to travel indeed. If there is any comfort, it is that there are many more Luthers this time. (And hopefully they’re less antisemitic.)
A rare, great explanation of NTS!
Thank you.
Technically, yes. It’s a fallacy to call all of the hateful christians “not real”. Since there’s just so many that identify and are identified as christians that are hateful, it’s mostly an academic distinction.
It IS interesting that so many christains don’t follow their own faith. For it is true that to be an overtly hatefuly or bigoted person is to ignore the core teachings of christianity.
to be an overtly hatefuly or bigoted person is to ignore the core teachings of christianity
And yet the history of Christianity is filled with hatred, and bloodshed. It’s almost like the “core teachings” are a smoke screen for the accumulation and abuse of power.
Also fun is technically, while it is a fallacy in the general sense, in the Christian religion they actually talk about false Christians as part of Christianity. So in a general sense it is a fallacy, but by its own rules they can be called as such and technically isn’t a fallacy. False prophets, pharisees, antichrist and whatnot.
I think the people downvoting you might not be familiar with the “No true Scotsman” fallacy.
No, they are familiar with it. He just used it wrong. The idea of the entire fallacy is that there can’t be qualifications to being a “true” Scotsman because the definition of a Scotsman is simply “someone who was born in Scotland”.
Funny, I don’t see any. But yeah, that’s what I was driving at.
So you’re saying there’s a Nougat of truth there
No True Nougat
Maybe he doesn’t hate and he just loves killin’
Important to understand that there’s also a form of civil war going on within the Church in the US between the more liberal churches, which this pastor represents, and the conservative, evangelical churches, which Mike Johnson represents.
Can confirm.
In my town, a lot of the churches are more about peace and love and helping the community. They fly lgbtq+ flags. Their biggest outdoor events involve feeding homeless, or cleaning the parks.
They absolutely hate these mega church types, and often get lumped into the shit.
That sounds a lot more Christ-like (feed the hungry, give as much as you can to the poor etc) than whatever mutation the evangelicals are worshipping.
The Episcopalians do it right. They allowed gay ministers well over a decade ago.
Jesus also instructed us on how to properly beat our slaves
< nitpick >I could be operating with incomplete information, but I don’t think that was technically Jesus, I’m pretty sure that was in Exodus, which was much earlier.< / nitpick >
Far more than just Exodus
https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/bible-verses-about-slavery/
And yeah my mistake, it was NT but not Jesus. Southern states used all of these verses to justify chattal slavery in the US.
That being said, Jesus referenced slavery all of the time without condemning it (in fact I think he tells slave masters to treat their slaves well. That’s not ok). He used slaves and slavery as allegories in his parables, etc.
Jesus himself said that he came to fulfill the old law and that not a word of it will change (in so many words). He explicitly supports Old Testament law, and therefore supports slavery and the rules surrounding beating them. If he didn’t, he could have very easily had said so.
He tacitly approved of it. And I couldn’t care less about “the times”. Slavery is bad, period. No matter what/where it’s taking place.
There’s a church near me that flies a pride flag. Now, I’m not Christian (or LGBTQ) so I wouldn’t go to pray there, but I was happy to see it. Too many places of worship make the news for how hateful they are. It’s nice to see one advertising how inclusive they are.
Again, I’m not Christian and thus not an expert on Jesus, but from what I know his message was a pretty good one. Help the poor, the sick, and anyone else who needs assistance. If more churches actually followed Jesus instead of screaming that the Bible says you should buy more guns, assault immigrants, hate people different from you, and worship Trump while giving the pastor as much money as possible, then maybe they would be in better shape.
Viva Christo Rey
Important to note that the sides are in like a 5:1 ratio and Johnson is on the larger side.
Also the liberal churches are far older and are shrinking; denominations and mega-churches who act like Johnson’s are growing.
Young people see it all as a bunch of bs, except the radical ones, which drives religion to greater and greater insanity.
It’s also a simple matter of funding.
The megachurches preaching prosperity gospel, cramming 10,000 people into a building, and hoarding their wealth (most don’t pay apportionments to a larger denomination that is used to fund service projects) find it easier to keep the doors open than the little churches that focus on compassion and community service.
Righteous Gemstones vibes
The divide falls between small churches that help their community, and large churches that help themselves…
So if theres a break between the churches… again. How long till we get some christian anarchist type beheading random pastors or some other John Brown type shit.
It just dawned on me that evangelicals are the evangélicos in South America. Let me tell you, South America being 90% Catholic, we see evangelicals as crazy fanatics. If someone told me that an evangélico was part of the government in the country I grew up with, most people would immediately dismiss whatever they have to say about people going to hell or whatever.
I guess the only difference with this guy is that he’s wielding too much power, which makes him dangerous. But other than that, anything he has to say will be met with “sure, sure, old man, praise the lord whatever, go pray somewhere far away from me.”
You know, watching religion decline in the west largely as a result of the more fanatical like Johnson, I kinda hope their side wins so we can be done with it. There are few things that are more of a cancer on society (globally as well) than religion and the dogmatic approach to the world that it espouses.
It’s worse than that, he’s a Republican
The Devil having found no traction with drug addicts, thieves & prostitutes, and perl programmers has decided to use Christian leaders.
It would be believable if the first groups didn’t entirely compose last one.
I agree that the devil would go after perl programmers, as sloth is a sin.
Something something who doesn’t remember Black Perl?
And that Pontius Pilate wrote only in Lingua::Romana::Perligata
People called Javascriptum they go the house?
then python programmers came and literally made a hash out of everything
same with the drug addicts
| Linux kernel 6.6.6 released
Coincidence?! I think not
Matthew 7:15-20
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
“I’ll take ‘Metaphor Translations’ for $100, Alex.”
What is made up bullshit?
To define “fruit,” reference Galatians 5:22-23 - “… the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.”
If I believed in God or the Devil, I’d find claim that he’s controlled by the Devil more believable than Johnson’s claim that he’s working for God.
Though these days I associate “Christianity” more with hate than with love.
Welcome to the club. Hateful is 90% of the Christianity queer people experience.
While I am mightily amused to see the God Squad fighting amongst themselves…
You should read the op-ed. It’s actually very good
This just in: superstitious con artists engage in slapfight.
Film at 11.
Mike Johnson controlled by the Devil…so the Devil IS the reason we can’t have a nice government to meet our needs.
As an Atheist, I think it is awful that Mike Johnson works with the Devil.
I don’t know if this weird little man is controlled by the xtian devil, but I do know that like so many of today’s cons/GOP, he is one creepy weirdo. A party filled with creepy weirdos.
Imagine thinking your god (note the lack of a capital g the provincial xtians love to use) gives you a right to poke around in others’ lives.
Xtians? Are we serious? Good grief lol
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I’m just going to say yes.
I can’t tell what that means ?
Think of it as how the shorthand version of CHRISTmas is Xmas and it make a tad more sense albeit still a rather unnecessary abbreviation in this situation.
I mean, strictly speaking, are not all abbreviations unnecessary? Sticking-my-tongue-out
ASCIIAmerican Standard Code for Information Interchange symbol face.It serves a purpose to be concise within professional circles but you do have to be more descriptive with the general public sometimes. Nobody gonna know what CYP2D6 means unless you explain it.
(It’s a liver enzyme that metabolizes various things)
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I just want to pause here and say that this kind of thing, much like basically any bumper sticker ever, is stupid as fuck and I hate it. Whether it’s my dumb fucking cousin saying “Killary” or equally annoying mouth breathers talking about “Drumpf.” Like, I’m as atheist as the day is long, and holy shit does it make the parent comment annoying to read. Your super great “hillary lied, people died” bumper sticker, the “honk if Trump should go to jail,” just all of it. It sucks, I hate it, it’s the laziest form of persuasion (spoilers, it’s persuading no one, it’s just pissing off the people you want to convince.) Oh you didn’t capitalize the ‘g’? Well fuck it’s me the pope, let’s peace out and go get tacos this Jesus thing was dumb anyway.
He supports the Antichrist, of course he is evil.
Just in case you are unaware the entire concept of the anti-christ was supposed to be Nero. The last book of the Bible was very controversial partially because of this reason. Other stuff you can argue about but to me at least this is a proven false prophecy and really should not be part of Christianity. However, I am a non-believer so maybe you shouldn’t follow my advice.
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free of journalistic bias and only cite news that factually happened with no agenda
Does such news even exist anymore?
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Ground News may be what you are looking for. On top of claiming to you the story straight, they show you stats of whether it’s getting more press on the left or right. They have a bunch of stats in their paid tiers, I think.
I don’t know the reputation of the people behind it, and I don’t use it heavily, but I like to hit their site/app from time to TMNT.
The devil has seen better days. You would expect a devil controlled human to be some sorta uber-human ultimate fighter. Zipping around the battlefield, single handedly committing whole outrages. Not some schmuck in a suit who got his job because of political stalemate.
I mean the devil is literally the great deceiver. in all biblical portrayals the only thing devil does is lie essentially. the lies sow doubts and people lose their faith.
what you’re describing is more along the lines of demons. and they’re technically easier to deal with because it’s so obvious.
I’m not religious but the devil really is a clever construct in Christianity, and highlights the best “feature”: salvation is based on faith and faith alone and everyone can be saved.
it is so much more effective at brainwashing than materialistic control
The devil never lies in the Bible. In the garden of Eden story (yes retrocon) he is the only one telling the truth. In Job he got something wrong but didn’t lie.
In any case there is no god so you can move on with your life.
How about, you’re both lunatics and religion is a scourge on society?
“Controlled by the devil” - that’s silly. I think the real debate is whether he’s controlled by Godzilla or Mothra.
But we can be sure he’s not controlled by Gamera because Gamera is a friend to all children. (and he’s really neat)
Mitch is full of turtle meat.
Those old Godzilla documentaries have higher production values than the bible dramatizations I saw as a kid.
