To be clear, staging militant attacks from a hospital is a war crime.
To make matters worse, it opens up the likelihood and justification of counter-attacks against that hospital and the people in it.According to international humanitarian law (IHL), health establishments and units, including hospitals, should not be attacked. This protection extends to the wounded and sick as well as to medical staff and means of transport. The rule has few exceptions.
Specific protection of medical establishments and units (including hospitals) is the general rule under IHL. Therefore, specific protection to which hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used by a party to the conflict to commit, outside their humanitarian functions, an “act harmful to the enemy”.
Medical establishments and units enjoy protection because of their function of providing care for the wounded and sick. When they are used to interfere directly or indirectly in military operations, and thereby cause harm to the enemy, the rationale for their specific protection is removed. This would be the case for example if a hospital is used as a base from which to launch an attack; as an observation post to transmit information of military value; as a weapons depot; as a center for liaison with fighting troops; or as a shelter for able-bodied combatants.
Source: The International Committee of the Red Cross
Nobody should beat around the bush here. Hamas are using injured civilians as a human shield to stage attacks, and in doing so they are inviting retaliation and suffering under well-establish terms of international law. There’s not really any particular gray area here. It’s horrible, it’s unethical, it’s criminal, and it’s just plain wrong.
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I don’t think any intellectually honest person that supports Palestine thinks Hamas are the “good guys”, they are an evil created and grown directly and indirectly by Israel’s actions.
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Who is doing that? Who is saying it’s justifiable for Hamas to use a hospital as a base? The only thing remotely close to that I’ve seen is people saying that a group like Hamas is an inevitable byproduct of Israeli occupation. Everyone knows putting a garrison in a hospital is shit, what’s disturbing is how many people think that justifies murdering every civilian in there
It’s the only place they could make a garrison, any other building Israel even remotely thinks is related to terrorism is summarily obliterated. If you leave people two options and one isn’t plausible you can’t be all too surprised they choose the other option.
The US spent 20 fucking years fighting in Afghanistan which also had hospital garrisons, I don’t seem to remember a pattern or practice of leveling them though. In fact the hospital that was destroyed kicked off a three party international review, the us apologized and paid the families. Israel on thee other hand said fuck it let’s go bomb hospitals.
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It’s not a justification dude, it’s still wrong but you’re lying to yourself if your say you wouldn’t do it either.
Take a guess where all of the known presidential bunkers are in the us.
…/u/? On lemmy?
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That’s understanding not justification. Saying they get why it was done is not at all the same as saying it’s morally or logically correct.
It specifically does not remove protections, it makes limited military intervention legal. I agree with the rest but that phrasing makes it seem like anything is on the table when it isn’t.
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Hi there. How about an old soldier who actually had to know this stuff and use that knowledge in a war?
First off, a single incident isn’t enough. A sniper or even a squad doing stuff can be dealt with in other ways. In order to strike a hospital (or any protected target) with explosives you need evidence it’s a target of “military or strategic value”. This is why Israel isn’t just claiming a few sporadic attacks but instead that all of the hospitals are actually command centers.
Second, the protected target can only be hit by proportional force that accomplishes a specific goal. If there’s an artillery battery in the parking lot and I level the obstetrics wing with dumb bombs then I’ve committed a war crime. Smart bombs with very low yields absolutely exist. Another example is the eponymous claim of rooftop rockets. I can hit that with an airburst explosive to prevent structural damage to most concrete buildings. In the context of protected targets these things matter. You don’t get a green light to demolish it unless it’s basically been hollowed out for military use only.
Third, whoever fires on the protected target is responsible for providing the evidence it was required. And war crimes investigators take a very dim view of “they did it once a decade ago”, as a reason. Israel and it’s allies have yet to do anything that actually proves the existence of a military or strategic target in places like the UNRWA Gaza headquarters.
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While proportionality is in LOAC, if there is ample intelligence that the hospital is being used to commit attacks, it doesn’t have to be used exclusively to commit attacks to be a legal target.
Rule 28. Medical units exclusively assigned to medical purposes must be respected and protected in all circumstances. They lose their protection if they are being used, outside their humanitarian function, to commit acts harmful to the enemy.
“the protection of medical units ceases when they are being used, outside their humanitarian function, to commit acts harmful to the enemy. This exception is provided for in the First and Fourth Geneva Conventions and in both Additional Protocols.[37] It is contained in numerous military manuals and military orders.[38] It is also supported by other practice.[39]”
“While the Geneva Conventions and Additional Protocols do not define “acts harmful to the enemy”, they do indicate several types of acts which do not constitute “acts harmful to the enemy”, for example, when the personnel of the unit is armed, when the unit is guarded, when small arms and ammunition taken from the wounded and sick are found in the unit and when wounded and sick combatants or civilians are inside the unit.[40] According to the Commentary on the First Geneva Convention, examples of acts harmful to the enemy include the use of medical units to shelter able-bodied combatants, to store arms or munitions, as a military observation post or as a shield for military action.”
And that’s before we get into the creative reinterpreting of LOAC for terrorists in non- international armed conflicts fought by non-state insurgent groups which were invented post 9-11.
I never said it had to be in exclusive use to get fired on.
I did say the party firing on the hospital needs to provide evidence that each hospital, at each time, was a legal target. “I said so” doesn’t pass muster.
My friend, they celebrate an airstrike with multiple rocket enough to create a crater few meter wide, using it on a human target, inside a crowded refugee camp. They certainly will not listen to any reasoning.
First off, a single incident isn’t enough.
This is not an isolated incident.
We don’t even have evidence of a single incident.
And before you reply with LoOk At ThE ViDeO!11
That’s one guy. In the street outside a hospital. That in no way justifies anything other than the infantry going by to check it out and help the doctors. One guy with an RPG (not the sensationalist ATGM setup the headline would have us believe) is nowhere near the evidence required to drop ordinance on a hospital.
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I’m older than you think. I was in the 2003 Iraq invasion. And I was specifically a mortarman. I have vivid memories of listening to the fires net and the Battalion coordinator asking for exact details and then us getting exact fire mission specifics to minimize damage. ( A normal mission would be something like all guns fire 10 rounds of ground det HE as fast as possible. These missions were more like our best gun firing one airburst or smoke at a time.) The thing is, those details are all recorded because you have to be able to account for every mission fired on a protected target. They wouldn’t be sensitive either, not the parts about how exactly Hamas is using the building as reported by units on the ground. The reporting method is known and Hamas’ tactics are something they want to show the world.
It’s the absence of these reports along with the completely lackluster post battle evidence that has me wondering what the hell the Israelis are doing.
It doesn’t give them the right to bomb the hospital point blank period, proportionality clauses kick in and it’s arguably reason to ground assault it but they cannot ignore the civilian cost of life when they’re are other ways to go about clearing the garrison.
Ed: Jesus Christ, 3 seconds on Google prior just can’t seem to do.
The principle of proportionality prohibits attacks against military objectives which are “expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated”. In other words, the principle of proportionality seeks to limit damage caused by military operations by requiring that the effects of the means and methods of warfare used must not be disproportionate to the military advantage sought.
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No the fuck they don’t!
You just ain’t right bud, do some fucking reading before you spout Israeli talking points.
The principle of proportionality prohibits attacks against military objectives which are “expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated”. In other words, the principle of proportionality seeks to limit damage caused by military operations by requiring that the effects of the means and methods of warfare used must not be disproportionate to the military advantage sought.
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https://casebook.icrc.org/a_to_z/glossary/proportionality
The principle of proportionality prohibits attacks against military objectives which are “expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated”. In other words, the principle of proportionality seeks to limit damage caused by military operations by requiring that the effects of the means and methods of warfare used must not be disproportionate to the military advantage sought.
Same source, you know that’s theres like thousands of laws in relation to war correct?
I don’t know better boss, but I can use the search bar and read, you don’t need much more than that to know you’re objectively wrong and your source agrees.
Lol “garrisoned”. This isn’t Age of Empires. Gaza is one of the most densely populated area on the planet. They have no freedom of movement, and the area is completely blockaded. Anywhere anyone in that area tries to stage a defense is a “civilian area.” They’re literally prohibited from having anything else.
So there is nowhere they could defend from that you wouldn’t consider “human shield.”
But you know that.
Edit: Corrected. Because fascist apologists love getting honest interlocutors hung up on semantics. I misspoke, and it’s “just” one of the most densely populated areas. Because that changes my argument in any real way whatsoever.
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I know what the word means. If you want to get all semantic about it, Hamas isn’t a “military force,” they’re an insurgency. I’m not sure an insurgency “garrisons”.
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Gaza is not even close to being the most densely populated area on the planet, what is your source for that?
Also have you seen a map of gaza? There are many open areas hamas could use to launch attacks from, but it chooses (rather rationally I might add) to site its materiel in places where israeli retaliation will cause civillian casualties.
I apologize that I forgot to add “one of the” before “most.” The point still stands.
Oh, you looked at a map of Gaza, and because of that you are an expert on the land and you know the best strategic locations for them to set up? Fuck off.
Israel made an open-air prison, and when a group of extremists react, they bomb the entire fucking prison (strangely aiming at the hospitals, and the areas where they instructed refugees to go).
Edit: After re-reading this comment, i’d like to correct something. I don’t think it’s even accurate to say Israel created an open-air prison, or to call Gaza a prison. The word “prison” heavily implies that the people there did something to deserve their punishment. I wonder if anyone could let me know all the terrorist acts those Gazan children performed… Was it “throwing rocks at IDF”? Because that’s usually punishable by death.
Open areas, you know! Those places everyone can see, who needs operational security when you have all that room for activities!
“Rather rationally I might add” what did you take this part to mean?
Sadly I think there’s just an overwhelming tendency for bias to make people think “everything my side does is right and everything the other side does is wrong”.
Random people on the internet, many of whom are mostly (if not entirely) detached from realities of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and may only just be learning about it for the first time from social media, have now formed ranks and picked a side that feels right in the moment. I’d ask people to resist the urge to do that, and instead take some time to read into the complete history of the region and the conflict, but I think it’s much easier to go along with what other people on the net/TV/radio/etc are shouting.
People should keep in mind that there’s a 3rd side to every conflict: the side of the innocent people who have found themselves caught in the middle of an armed conflict that they never wanted or asked for. The Israeli student who was shot to death at a festival, the old Palestinian woman whose family were buried alive in a knocked-down building, the young child who was taken hostage by Hamas scared and alone, and the Gaza teenager who has lost all possibility of the normal, peaceful life and education that so many of us take for granted. Their side is the only side that anyone should be on. And it’s those very innocent civilians who Hamas are knowingly putting in danger by treating them as human shields in a way that openly invites retaliation.
When you stop to think for a minute about what’s really going on here, and when you’ve taken even the bare minimum amount of time to read up on the history of this conflict (one of the longest-running geopolitical conflicts in modern history), it’s not hard to understand that both sides really do have blood on their hands. There are no “good guys” other than the people who have managed to stay innocent, and as the conflict goes on and the desire for revenge burns in people’s hearts, eventually some of those people will become “bad guys” too.
And that’s just a very sad thing, because if nothing else it means that there is no light at the end of the tunnel.
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Meanwhile there are people whos education doesn’t pass high-school screaming that this isn’t legal, or its incorrect
So…Joe Biden and UN?
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University of Delaware
Biden attended the University of Delaware in Newark, where he was more interested in sports and socializing than in studying,[15] although his classmates were impressed by his cramming abilities.[33] He played halfback with the “Blue Chicks” freshman football team (at the time, freshmen were not eligible to play varsity sports).[25][26] However, when he got a poor 1.9 grade point average for the semester, his parents told him that he had to give up football to concentrate on his classes.[26] He continued to get mostly “C” and “D” grades for his next two semesters.[34] His grades then began to improve, but never became especially good.[34] He wanted to return to the football, and by the spring practices of his junior year he thought he was about to earn a starting spot as a defensive back on the varsity for that fall.[25][35][26]
It’s literally wikipedia dude, the university of Delaware says the same, but do go on, who’s your source.
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I told you wiki, I need not link it as I’m certain you’ve the ability to type.
Similarly it contains many sources and you’ve as of yet not proved any part of your claim, you’ve not even provided a source that backs up your “lol biden didn’t graduate” claim, dudes an asshole but he graduated from college and law school. The fuck are you huffing?
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Ok, let’s send them to the Hague I guess? Why do you think this is an important point? Hamas isn’t actually a legitimate organization that signed on to international law and would ever care what “legitimate warfare” is. They just went into Israel and murdered a bunch of civilians. If these fighters are caught whether the UN thinks they were wrong is the least of their problems.
And none of that makes Israel attacking a hospital (or just the blatant collective punishment) justified.
Except it literally does justify attacking the hospital. Black on white, letter and spirit of the law.
No it doesn’t, and you’re a shitty person for thinking that.
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“Whether it’s ok to bomb a hospital” isn’t a legal question.
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Except it literally does justify attacking the hospital.
“Justified” and “legal” are two separate judgements. OP wants to conflate them to excuse an unjust act.
This is not a matter of personal opinion
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How many war criminals from US, Russia have been charged and are rotting in jail? Bush, Obama, Trump? or does this law only apply when you want to use PR for your war contractors against brown people?
“According to international humanitarian law” my ass.
Umm, sir, are you OK? You’re supposed to want them to all kill each other so we can claim their souls.
Jokes on you. I’m a ginger so I’ve just been “tactically acquiring” them.
To be clear, no one here is defending Hamas or saying that it isn’t a war crime.
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It’s not comical how many anti-Semitic and/or pro-genocide apologists are on Lemmy.
It’s weird how you are okay with genocide against Palestinians, including all the classic hallmarks of genocide via settler colonialism (displacement, apartheid and blockade, massive civilian damage, etc) that we’ve seen countless times since the Native Americans, but if anyone says that’s wrong you immediately cry anti-Semitism. Israel is not the one in danger of being genocided here, they’re the ones perpetrating it. Even lots of Jewish people can see it. To mix up the colonial ethno-state of Israel with all Jewish people is real, deceptive purposeful propaganda.
I’m not okay with genocide against the Palestinians (or anyone else), hence the “pro-genocide” in my post above. I’m not okay with anti-Semitism either. I’m also firmly in the camp of “criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitic”.
Both Hamas and the IDF (by extension, the Israeli gov’t) are murderers or complicit in murder. Simple as that.
Oh I agree on all points. Looks like I jumped to conclusions there. Think I got you and someone else I was arguing with at the same time confused. Sorry about that 😅🙏
No worries! It’s bound to happen, and it’s a topic bound to generate some heat. Next round is on me 😎
It’s pure hyperbole, but if more conversations could proceed like this one, fewer children would be dead.
you completely misinterpreted their comment. they were contrasting the original comment made by Mean-Eye.
I really did lol. Already apologized, but I suppose that I maybe should throw an edit in there for future people.
Two wrongs don’t make a right.
Unless it’s Hamas killing Jews, apparently.
I honestly haven’t seen any. Every single person other than pro-Apartheid pro-Israel types seems to be making a very clear distinction between Palestinian civilians and Hamas.
Has it seriously not occurred to zionists that there’s a middle step between doing absolutely nothing and leveling the entire building? Send troops in there to liberate the hospital. A lot fewer innocents will die, and yea more IDF troops will die that way, but in what fucking universe is it preferable to murder civilians than to run a risky military operation? Even if Hamas kills a bunch of patients or doctors in retaliation there will surely be more survivors than if you just bomb the place. But nope, apparently Israeli lives are worth infinitely more than those of Palestinian civilians, so the best solution is to murder all Palestinians so they’re not a “threat” to Israel
When your
best solution is to murder all Palestinians
…bombing hospitals, refugee camps, schools, and endless civilians is a good thing… and explains Israel’s behaviour and rhetoric in a pretty straightforward way.
…of course, killing all those kids makes the question “why are Hamas bad” a bit awkward… I know! Saying it’s bad to murder children is anti-semitic now - that’s not an obvious, massive self-report!
I don’t personally care to judge whether Israel or Hamas are worse - they’re both monstrous, genocidal murderers, killing innocent civilians… But only one of them has the ability to actually deliver on their genocidal intentions, and they’re making headway.
A lot fewer innocents will die, and yea more IDF troops will die that way, but in what fucking universe is it preferable to murder civilians than to run a risky military operation?
A lot fewer innocent palestinians. Why do you expect the Israeli government to prioritise the lives of Palestinian over their own citizens when trying to smack out a terrorist threat? I agree wholeheartedly that the attacks must stop and a ceasefire should be declared but comments like this which just present a simple solution and outright ignore the obvious reason that is not happening just distract from conversations we should be having.
Why do you expect the Israeli government to prioritise the lives of Palestinian over their own citizens when trying to smack out a terrorist threat?
Because they were instrumental in creating that terrorist threat in the first place, not only by perpetrating ethnic cleansing but by directly funding Hamas in the 70s and 80s as a counterbalance against the secular PLO.
I mean America funded and trained what became al qaeda as well. If your only justification here is Israel was aligned with another government 40 years ago and that means their personally responsible for all the people under that government jurisdiction while in hostilities with it then you’re talking crazy. The Palestinians are hamass responsibility as their representative. It sucks hamas doesn’t care about them and most Palestinians would reject them if able but i don’t get why that then means Israel is meant to care instead. Theirs a case for moral compassion from Israel but that flies out the window when hamas is actively attacking them from Palestinian territories. I’d be more inclined to support your viewpoint if hamas was only attacking Palestinians and Israel let them do it because they supported their rise to power in the past.
If your only justification here is
The first thing I mentioned was ethnic cleansing, which tends to radicalize people after a few decades of it.
But also, Israel has Palestine inside a literal fucking fence. They control the fucking water supply. Yes, they are responsible for Palestine
I like how they quite literally skipped past the decades of ethnic cleansing to address Israel’s financial ties to Hamas and then proceed to complain that’s the only negative factor at play regarding Israel’s control over Palestinian lives. Just straight up bad faith posturing.
They seem to be pretty bad at ethnic cleansing. When Israel was founded there were less than 300 thausand Palestinians in Gaza. Now there are more than 2 million.
driving them out of their homes and into shrinking, increasingly crowded prison cities with horrendous living conditions is ethnic cleansing. But they also have killed many thousands of Palestinians, not counting the 11,000 since Oct 7.
The only people who have bombed hospitals so far are hamas.
Source: it came to an IDF soldier in a dream
Has it seriously not occurred to zionists that there’s a middle step between doing absolutely nothing and leveling the entire building?
But where’s the genocide in that?
Shouldn’t your reasoning mean that we should only sacrifice German, US and British soldiers there?
It is their fault Israel exists like it does now. Every Israeli or Palestinian who dies is an innocent and only US Americans, Germans and Brits should be killed by Hamas.
But what about the reasons for the world wars? So it’s actually Italians who should go and die there! Since it was the Romans actions that lead to the situations which evolved into the first world war!
Counter attacking with troops and killing the terrorist is a reasonable response.
Leveling the entire hospital and surrounding neighborhood with missiles is NOT.
Hamas is literally in this video firing missiles. The people on this site including yourself have your heads in the sand.
Hamas is literally in this video firing missiles.
Yes they are. So kill them then without leveling the entire neighborhood, as I already said.
Go for it. If it is so easy you are welcome to go put yourself in harm’s way. Don’t criticize when you have not been faced with the decisions and a lack of full awareness. Hamas is not sitting out in the middle of a field waiting to be struck.
It is neither my place, nor my responsibility to physically take part in this conflict. However, it certainly IS my place and responsibility, as a human being, to say that purposefully killing innocent civilians and blowing up functional hospitals is evil. Yes, even when there is a bad guy hiding inside.
War is evil. Nothing they are doing is without military purpose. This is a justified conflict. Your perspective is naive and not based in reality and/or military law. Israel did everything they could to avoid this conflict, most of which has been misconstrued as genocide against Palestine.
They have absolutely not made any attempt to avoid conflict
Just wanted to point out a few factual inaccuracies in your comment.
- This is no longer a justified conflict. A state has the right to self defence in a limited way. The right to self defence does not override the rules on collective punishment. The right to self defence does not include the right to invade a state where the enemy is a terrorist group within that state, rather than the state itself. The right to self defence does not override the rules on attacking civilian infrastructure (especially ambulances) even where there is suspicion that a terrorist organisation may be using it. The right to self defence does not override the rules on forcible relocation or blockade. In short, the response to an enemy using a human shield must not be to eliminate the shield. It’s astounding that so many people seem to need this explained to them. This is borne out by international law, cf. the UN charters.
- Israel did not do everything they could do to avoid this conflict. The one thing they had to do was to abide by the Oslo accords, yet they have built settlements in Palestine every single day since signing, and restricted Gazans every single day since signing. The two state solution has failed as a result of Israel’s actions. In terms of actions since October 7th, the usual way to go about dismantling an embedded terror organisation is to use counterintelligence, ground ops and precision strikes. The reasons are obvious, I hope. The only way to get those hostages back is either by freeing them in covert ops or by negotiation at a political level. Destroying entire city blocks from the air will not get the hostages back, as we all know.
- The label genocide is not misconstrued, according to the UN genocide experts. Some say there is a grave risk that this is a genocide, based on the available facts, and some say that it already fulfills the criteria.
I can provide sources for all of my claims, if you’d prefer not to do the legwork yourself.
Lol literally none this si accurate
How do you write so much and get everything wrong
Hamas were the first to violate the accords. They launched an attack because they weren’t being included in the negotiations.
the usual way to go about dismantling an embedded terror organisation is to use counterintelligence, ground ops and precision strikes.
israel has been doing that for a few decades but Hamas continues to attack until they call for a ceasefire. In which Israel agrees, and then Hamas again breaks the ceasefire.
Bless your heart, sweet summer child.
So, in your mind, rules of engagement allow destroying civilian infrastructure that currently hosts many civilians so you can kill a handful of bad guys?
Article 19 of Geneva states that if a hospital is being used to store military equipment and active military combatants, then it loses its protection.
However, it certainly IS my place and responsibility, as a human being, to say that purposefully killing innocent civilians and blowing up functional hospitals is evil
It’s your responsibility to actually know what is happening before you spout false things online.
Okay genius, how do you kill them when they are in tunnels under neighborhoods? You cannot get into them without an explosion, even if present in person and they won’t just sit there either. This is not a war crime and I’m really questioning everyone’s collective intelligence and ability to think through problems instead of reacting to stimulus.
You heard from it this guy. Bombing hospitals is not a war crime if there’s a bad guy near there.
This is literally true.
Specific protection of medical establishments and units (including hospitals) is the general rule under IHL. Therefore, specific protection to which hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used by a party to the conflict to commit, outside their humanitarian functions, an “act harmful to the enemy”. In case of doubt as to whether medical units of establishments are used to commit an “act harmful to the enemy”, they should be presumed not to be so used.
Emphasis mine.
Proportionality is another factor you’re ignoring.
They’re also still required to attempt to limit targeting to avoid civilian casualties and yet they don’t
They do limit targeting. How many strikes are you seeing in the south as compared to the north? That’s a limitation and shows proportionality. You folks may not like it but this is categorically not a war crime.
How do you take out the enemy? Answer the question. Your perspective is not useful when you have no alternative. They cannot access the tunnels without an explosive. Name a full conflict where civilian infrastructure was not hit when taking a city.
The alternative is “you don’t”, but for some reason you don’t seem to even consider that there might be a cost in civilian lives too high to kill a handful of terrorists.
So how many festivals are you okay with being attacked? Apparently 260 per isn’t high enough for you.
You don’t have to shoot missiles indiscriminately into civilian zones. If your enemy is hiding among civilian infrastructure and/or using human shields, you need to change your tactics up to suit. Committing war crimes in order to kill your enemy isn’t how you retain the moral highground.
I’m still waiting on these tactics you are recommending. Alternatives don’t exist so your argument is absolute bullshit. The faster they can get through this, the less overall civilian suffering will occur.
The civilians can’t suffer if they are dead so you’re not wrong but are advocating for war crimes.
I think I’d rather be wrong.
What war crimes? There is a difference between war and war crimes and hardly anybody on this site knows the difference.
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What possible line of logic would lead to that conclusion?
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At what point were hostages brought up? Are you referencing some misinformation I’m not aware of or prescribing to me someone else’s comment?
When someone says “Being a governing leader is really hard” they don’t talk about parties or meetings, they talk about these decisions.
No one on this site is pro-Hamas, other than if you go over to the tankie instances.
You are spreading their propaganda and disinformation.
I checked the Arabic news scene for “AI” and whatever they call Israel thanks to Google AI and Yandex translate. They label every single “negative” photo,video,audio AI as things created by Israel. Their heads aren’t in the sand, they are indoctrinated which makes the situation truly horrible. There were teenagers getting medals in Hitler’s last days. As a side-note I guess they are trying to bury your opinion like they do in the evil site not knowing this place was founded by FOSS ideals which they don’t have a clue about.
I don’t think there are media controls on Lemmy but it also opens it up to automated propaganda and manipulation.
I guess they try to “punish” user by downvoting whatever thing they don’t like.
Well it’s a good thing they didn’t do that, then. Israeli troops will be entering the hospital to get at the Hamas base within it
Edit: they entered last night
And then you look at reporting from doctors without borders about doctors being murdered by snipers indiscriminately
Weird that the IDF didn’t indiscriminately kill civilians while raiding said hospital last night, then.
No, but they did do that to every other building in Gaza under the same pretense.
Distinguishing between civilians and combatants is anti Semitic
It’s less a hospital at this point and more an arms stockpile with some sick people left around as fodder/bad PR for anyone that would attack it.
Apparently not because Israel is getting torn apart in the information space for that approach.
Uh oh, guess that means there’s no choice but to level the entire place and kill every civilian in there :(
So weird seeing people carry water for Hamas. It blows my mind.
After learning that there were indeed fighters, weapons, and tunnels just like Israel said, contrary to what a certain popular news outlet said.
If Israel rolled up without any opposition, no one would have died.
Now imagine what would happen to civilians if Hamas were allowed to roll up on an Israeli hospital unobstructed (refer to the attack on Oct. 7 for more info).
No, if the IDF were allowed to roll up with no opposition, people would still have died. They want to ethnically cleanse Gaza, Hamas just gives them a “good” excuse to do so. If it weren’t for the 10/7 attack they would just maintain the status quo of shooting children for throwing rocks and making it hard to get aid into Gaza
That’s some qanon-level bullshit
No, it’s just observation based on the last few decades of Israeli terrorism and genocide and imperialism. How else do you explain the horrific numbers of civilians killed by the IDF, during both peace time and war?
First explanation: Hamas is lying. Just as as they did before. Second explanation: There’re two fucking million people there, and Hamas is actively trying to kill them, which is way easier than killing IDF soldiers.
I see, IDF hasn’t been murdering civilians en masse, it’s just a big conspiracy to make them look bad! Thank you for the explanation :3
The people in the hospital can’t do anything about what Hamas does and doesn’t do, as unfortunately within Gaza they can do whatever they want because they have the guns. Hamas committing war crimes doesn’t justify committing your own war crimes.
You had me in the first half, not gonna lie.
Of course many of those people can’t help that Hamas is set up there.
However, that doesn’t change the fact that places like hospitals can go from protected to valid targets when militaries start fighting out of it.
That’s exactly what Israel said was happening which was doubted by many in the fediverse and other lefty spaces (I count myself as a lefty for whatever that’s worth). Now we have receipts.
Hamas is fully responsible for the endangering those people.
If there’s ever another election there hopefully people remember this and don’t elect them again.
A hospital (in operation) is never a valid target. Even if Hamas fighters are in there. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
You’re wrong.
Legitimate military targets include: armed forces and persons who take part in the fighting; positions or installations occupied by armed forces as well as objectives that are directly contested in battle; military installations such as barracks, war ministries, munitions or fuel dumps, storage yards for vehicles, airfields, rocket launch ramps, and naval bases.
Hamas put those people and babies in danger when they set up barracks and munitions there.
You don’t get to just shoot shit out of a hospital and expect the opposing force to sit there with their thumb up their ass.
I’ll remember this next time you’re in any kind of hostage situation. I’ll tell the cops to fire away, you’re obviously cool with it.
This is not a hostage situation. It’s a war.
You’re right, the Palestine people should just let themselves be oppressed by the state of Israel. Now that the country has been bombed for over a month, they should welcome IDF soldiers with open arms. /s
They oppressed by Hamas
They couldn’t do that or leave due to Hamas.
Now imagine what would happen to civilians if Hamas were allowed to roll up on an Israeli hospital unobstructed (refer to the attack on Oct. 7 for more info).
Simple. They shell their own people alongside the terrorist.
While there’s definitely Hamas supporter and anti-jew around, when people call for humanitarian ceasefire and stop attacking hospital, they aren’t supporting Hamas, but somehow it got included into one because that doesn’t fulfill some people’s agenda and believe, and the same people will instead carry water for IDF and Netanyahu, the force and people who disproportionately attack Gaza as a retaliation for 7th October attack, collective punish the people of Gaza and displaced millions, attacking media because they didn’t show the same perspective as them, literally murder journalist that tend to publish unfavourable news against Israel, establish illegal settlement in West Bank using far right terrorist, using disproportionate force to disperse Palestinian protestor, arrest Israeli politician that criticise them, shoot a child with live bullet to disperse protest, arrest Palestinian without reason, treat Palestinian in a way that basically fit ACAB, deliver luggage-full of cash to Hamas leader, so on and so forth. Aren’t your mind blown? Or is that not an issue because one side is clearly evil so the other side should be okay to conduct evil?
In the full-length interview, Porat states that the Palestinian fighters – who she says treated her and the other Israeli civilians “humanely” – intended to “kidnap us to Gaza. Not to murder us.”
Ohhh Hamas was only there to do a little light kidnapping. Please ignore the beheddings and people burned alive. It’s damaging to our current propaganda efforts.
Also ignore this call from a terrorist to his family bragging about all the Jews he killed and attempting to get his father to open WhatsApp to see the awesome photos.
Ohhh so that’s how IDF sympathiser works, denying survivor account because it doesn’t align with their view, and ignore the main point.
Maybe here’s another one with viewpoint align to the IDF sympathiser will do?
Now i wonder how Be’eri are so wrecked, hmmm 🤔
Hey, what gives? I thought all Hamas was gonna do was a little light kidnapping?
?
You’re the one that claimed i said that while my point isn’t even that. You’re still salty about missing the mark ehh?
but the forces bombing hospitals, escape routes, and journalists, they aren’t terrorists??
Can’t both be wrong?
Palestinians and isreali civilians are caught between two asshole organizations and as they say, when elephants fight, the ants suffer.
It’s tiring to see everyone taking sides. Just admit that both sides are wrong: Hamas are using civilians as cover, Israel is just killing everyone to get at Hamas. The people suffer. :-(
I don’t understand why this is such a difficult concept for so many people. Two sides can absolutely be in the wrong, especially over the span of generations. At such a point it really hardly matters anymore at all who started what, it’s just two sides showing humanity’s ugliest side non-stop.
One group seems to be following the Geneva convention.
But yeah. Same.
Lol I legit can’t tell which group you are referring to.
Oh I can help with that.
It’s a big no no to set up an army garrison in protected buildings like hospitals according to the Geneva convention. Reason being, you can cause said building to lose it’s protected status.
Does that help?
of course that’s possible, I’m pointing out that the language used in the title of this post doesn’t want you to see it that way
No, didn’t you get the memo?
Everything is a team sport these days, and just like you can either be team Jacob or team Edward but can’t be undecided, online etiquette rules dictate that you can either be team Hamas or team IDF.
And no, team ‘civilians’ doesn’t count. Too much grey area for people to know whether you are on their team or not. They’ll need to read your entire comments to know if they should downvote you or upvote you.
Could you imagine?
That’s probably a war crime in and of itself.
So hurry up and pick a side and stop making discussing international conflicts online so complicated with your ‘nuance’ BS.
So glad you brought this up… I am 100% team Voltari. Edward is like over 100 years old and Bella is like 16, 17 maybe? Seems a little statutory rapey. Oh then Jacob falls in love with their child at the age of like less than one…
Voltari should have ripped them all apart and threw them in the fire.
It is possible for everyone to be wrong.
Beyond these crazy and terrible events, I’m left wondering what the big picture end game was here? Was it to block Israel from normalizing relationships with neighbouring foes, or is it a part of a bigger play by foes of Israel to highlight the injustices from their point of view?
This sacrifice of the innocents on all sides is a terribly high price on humanity and how long an eye for an eye will take to play out in the generations to follow.
That’s exactly it. Hamas has previously and continues to do all it can to destroy any hopes for peace and Israel’s far-right has been happy to leverage them for the same reason.
Palestinians and Israelis suffer and die while a few powerful men maintain or gain power from the situation.
Hamas can’t have peace otherwise a more legitimate government takes over and continues toward a two-state system (they had in the past made a wave of suicide bombings to derail the peace process). Israeli far-right doesn’t peace either (they’ve shot one of their PMs in the past over this) as that would put a stop to their ambition of power and colonizing more Palestinian land.
Israeli reporters have shown how the current Israeli PM and his party had passively allowed the financing of Hamas to come into Gaza (enemy of my enemy…) so they would keep destabilizing any peace talks and fight the more moderate Palestinian parties.
In short, Hamas is horrible and keeps provoking Israel and Israel keeps biting the bait and reacting exactly as Hamas expects them to do: doing their own round of horrible atrocities in a vicious cycle of suffering and death which breeds the next generation of extremists.
Anybody looking at this issue purely as a military problem is missing the big picture.
deposing that far-right israeli leadership would be the first step toward fixing this whole mess. many israelis (around 75%) want netanyahu gone immediately after the war and it seems like their approval ratings have gone down as a result of this conflict, in contrast to the general trend of right-wing governments benefiting from war in most situations.
if the west can put pressure on israel (and that it can, without american weapons most of the surrounding muslim countries would love to genocide the hell out of israel), this is where that pressure needs to go. finish the war, get hamas out of at least the government of gaza (fully disbanding them will be a longer process, but at least don’t put them in control), and then execute a regime change in israel as well. get rid of both governing parties that caused this mess to begin with and then their successors can hopefully actually work towards peace.
So much this. The Palestinian side has been more or less in stasis politically for what, a decade? Meanwhile Israel moves further and further to the right, constantly indulging their worst right flank including continued land theft. The Republicans in the US indulge Israel without question, while the Democrats question Israel without teeth.
Hamas and Netanyahu need to go as the baseline outcome of this debacle. I’m not sure how Hamas gets removed, or more importantly what takes its place.
I don’t know if there is an endgame. Just dogs chasing cars. I do know a lot of people have died.
Doubt there was any goal or forethought past ‘kill Israelis’
No, there’s definitely an underlying tone of “hang onto power”.
Was it to block Israel from normalizing relationships with neighbouring foes
This was the goal of the October attacks, yes. This goal has failed, thus far.
The big picture is that in both countries groups/parties want to have the other people gone. Preferably with international support or the support of neighbouring countries.
Everytime they entangle themselves in a conflict, on both sides the number of radicals and extremists grows and with it the power of extremist parties.
For them peace is only when the others are gone. That is why it seems so unlikely that they are open for peace talks as long as these right-wing extremists are in power.
Many don’t want to hear this, but for Hamas their biggest chance in the war is that Israel loses international support. They have no issue with sacrificing Palestinians for this, quite the opposite.
Not a good way to avoid having your hospitals bombed…
hamas has no hospitals.
In the Gaza Strip the government was the Hamas government of 2012. Following two Fatah–Hamas Agreements in 2014, on 25 September 2014 Hamas agreed to let the PA Government resume control over the Gaza Strip and its border crossings with Egypt and Israel, but that agreement had broken down by June 2015, after President Abbas said the PA government was unable to operate in the Gaza Strip.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_government
Let’s not pretend like they’re just some random group that just rolled in.
Nope, they are a terrorist criminal organization allowed to take over in the chaos caused by a never ending occupation intended to force People there to allow their land to be settled by the occupiers as the folks living their are systematically genocided.
If terrorists do terrorism around a hospital, you shoot the hospital. It’s the only logical answer.
Yeah I mean that’s why we declared war on airplanes after 9/11
I apparently should’ve added one of these /s
If cancer does cancer stuff around my stomach, you shoot my stomach. It’s the only logical answer. /s
lol let’s ignore what chemo does to you.
I would argue that in this metaphor it’s still more surgical than a bullet but I get what you mean.
Yup, just like a person that has a splinter in their finger needs that arm amputated, for the safety of the rest of the body. /s
They wouldn’t have anything to fire at if IDF troops weren’t there already murdering people.
Huh, wonder why the IDF is there. Oh yeah, it’s because Hamas stormed out of Gaza and specifically targeted civilians as nice soft targets.
Not to defend Hamas or anything. But Israel does the same thing all the time. Proper escalation to kids throwing rocks at armed soldiers is not a lethal hail of semi-automatic military eeaponry fire. Happens all the time though.
And I will stand aside and let you criticize them all you want.
Other than pretending the IDF actions against unarmed innocent civilians is justifiable, sure you would.
I just said I think IDF violence against kids throwing rocks is unjustifiable. DID I STUTTER?
You did no such thing. You simply stated you’d allow another to criticize it without your objection. Immediately after stating the IDF were fully justified in their slaughter of children since a terrorist group hiding among said prisoner children had broken out of the prison and attacked People that were not guarding the prison.
Why is the IDF in the West bank, and actively trying to stir up conflict? And if a radical group/government took control of the West bank because of it, would you blame both sides?
You are skipping over a sixty Year occupation to get to your “unprovoked” pretending.
they managed to find something at the start of the conflict.
Well, that’s misleading. The article acts as if they’re doing it from the hospital. They’re firing from the road. There’s nothing given in the article indicating they had anything to do with the hospital.
According to IDF forces, as reported in fourteenwordsnews.com, the evil terrorists did a cartoonishly convenient thing that justifies the worst atrocities we’ve been getting beat up in the news for
Graffiti was also found in the area that said “blacks rule”
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The IDF is shooting doctors through the windows of the hospitals, you think a Hamas guy can just walk in front of the hospital with an RPG? Lmao.
If the IDF wasn’t known for faking basically 90% of all “evidence” they release you could buy this one but at this point the IDF is literally like Putins special military opertion that’s gonna free all the kids in the basement of the Pizza hut
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I bet santa claus has been visiting you for decades, rube
What say ye now Hamas lovers? Still a side-picker?
No one is a Hamas lover Mr black and white
But there are a whole lot of people who have decided to excuse everything Hamas does and cast everything Israel does in the worst light possible. That’s what I personally have a problem with. Hamas and its sponsors are despicable excuses for human beings who put slaughter Israeli civilians and put Palestinian civilians in harm’s way. That needs to be fully acknowledged. At the same time, I see a lot of people in the US who are ignorant of the failure of leadership in Israel. They place all blame on Palestinians without realizing that Israel’s leadership has played a role in sabotaging peace talks.
No, there aren’t. There are plenty of people willing to state the reasons why Hamas does things. That isn’t to defend or justify what Hamas does. But they do have the reasons. And Israel has proven themselves time and again worthy of suspicion in all things.
Regardless, this does not justify what Israel has been doing. Someone standing out front of any building with an RPG does not give carte blanche to level a building with military weapons fire.
Israel has proven themselves time and again worthy of suspicion in all things.
I mean, both sides have done that. I immediately lose trust in anyone who tries to paint either side as not morally reprehensible.
No one is a Hamas lover Mr black…
In my head: What does skin color got to do with anything?
… and white
In my head: Oh, not skin color.
Lol, ya to many people are stuck on this being black and white and thus you have to take a side. When in reality it’s just a mess, a mess of history , a mess of religion, a mess of unfounded hatred. The only side people should be takeing is the civilians who are stuck in the middle.
The more I learn about the history, because am/was whole heartily ignorant of it. The more I have a hard time seeing a solution to this.
I have my opinion on what I think should happen but its not realistic or practical.
I’m making fun of the people who see black and white.
What?? Who tf is a Hamas lover?
Are you referring to the people who acknowledge that the IDF are just as much of terrorists as Hamas? Because that’s true, and it doesn’t make you a Hamas supporter.
Hamas are terrorists. Israel is a terrorist state.
Israel has oppressed and murdered Palestinians for decades. Hamas responded by slaughtering thousands of Israelis. Now Israel is responding by committing genocide.
There are no good guys. It’s terrorists fighting terrorists, while innocent civilians are caught in the crossfire and being massacred in the tens of thousands
Fuck off with your feaux-intellectual instigative bullshit. You look stupid.
Are you referring to the people who acknowledge that the IDF are just as much of terrorists as Hamas?
Just want to clarify, you see no difference between a group who avoids civilian deaths when possible and another group who actively seeks to kill civilians?
And the other guy looks stupid?
You really believe the IDF avoids civilian deaths when possible???
11,000 and growing massacred civilians (mostly women and children) would beg to differ
That’s one in every 200 civilians, just to clarify
When Hamas was cleared out of the hospital, what happened to everyone else?
Bombed and cut off from all vital resources and any route of escape
And then bombed again
If Israel wanted to just bring the hospital down with everyone inside they could do that without stepping foot in Gaza.
To put it in perspective, when Hamas finds unguarded Israeli civilians they cut their heads off and burn them alive.
I never defended Hamas. Hamas is absolutely a terrorist organization.
Doesn’t change the fact that the IDF are terrorists as well.
I’m making fun of the people who see black and white. And there are a TON of them on Lemmy.
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It wasn’t sarcasm. I asked how the side-pickers (the Hamas lovers) feel now. I’m serious.
I’m not the problem. Your comprehension skills are lacking.
And screw your “sorry, but” nonsense.
Comprendé?
Your comment made me fart.
No one sane loves Hamas. But it takes some serious mental gymnastics to pretend the Israeli government is justified in what is going on in Gaza right now.
That if IDF weren’t murdering people at the hospital, the resistance fighters wouldn’t have had any IDF troops to fire at.
Seriously. Any civilized country would take the murder of 1200 of their civilians and just move on. Like, the abducted are way over there in Gaza. Just leave ‘em for Mohamed’s sake.
So Hamas was operating their fighting force out of a hospital. Does that mean it’s okay to fight them there???
You’re totally right.
Israel has not been murdering innocents consistently for 60 years.
One retaliatory strike, leading to 260 deaths, not 1200, deserves a response of 11,000 dead civilians in a month and a half.
/s
That’s gonna happen when the force you’re fighting uses human shields.
What a despicable monstrous opinion.
Not an opinion. It’s what’s happening right now.
Ya. And it’s despicable and monsterous.
If only America stopped flushing billions over billions of dollars on killing innocent brown people.
End apartheid. Free Palestine.
It remains a mystery why Israel shoots at
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Wait. Wait wait. You think they need “plants” to paint Hamas doing horrible, reckless, teorrist shit?
Ok, bud.
I am no fan of the IDF, but you sound like those q anon people who call victims of school shootings “crisis actors.”
They don’t need “plants.”
And yeah, they definitely shouldn’t nuke the hospital. Agreed.
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Bro I’m Palestinian and even I know calling Hamas agents who do awful shit plants is braindead.
They literally rule over a state where half the population wasn’t even born yet last time there was a vote, nuffa that lionizing shit.
ooh, so we’re at that stage where we’re making conspiracy theories? :o
The video literally shows a tank out the front of the hospital so of course you’re gonna have guys with rpgs defending it?
No kidding. IDF is bombing hospitals already… so yeah if you see a tank roll up what are you gonna do?
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I don’t see how ANYTHING would justify bombing a hospital full of innocent people.
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I don’t really care about downvotes too it just reminds me the fascists, country subs brigading on the other site to bury anything they don’t like. It seems Fediverse imported them along with individuals. Living in an oppressive state where government breeds millions of fascists, fanatics I really know the mentality. BTW thanks to EU for condemning them from time to time.
I don’t see how you can justify Hamas intentionally fighting from hospitals, specifically so they get bombed and you can use it as PR against the IDF.
It’s not PR. Do you think they want to get themselves and others killed? IDF is responsible for their own actions in the country they have occupied and oppressed for 55 years.
Do you think they want to get themselves and others killed?
Dude, they’re radical Islamic soldiers who routinely kill themselves in jihad, fighting along civilians they have actively put in harms way.
YES I believe they want to get themselves and as many Palestinians killed as possible. They just want to kill a few thousand Israelis in the process.
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Seriously. There’s an easy way to not get your tanks targeted by fighters who can retreat into a hospital: don’t drive your tanks up to a hospital.
Hamas clearly in public buildings using civilians as shield. Palestinians clearly know and don’t care. Nothing will stop me from hating on both Hasmas and Israel. And I am slo losing patience for Palestanians for supporting Hamas and not condemning their action.
Its hard to care when you get shot for opening your mouth
Just like reddit, people here can’t accept narratives other than mainstream liberal. Sure, there are Gazans that want Hamas out but they are minority. Hamas is a grassroots organization that defeated the party that preferred the two state solution. Hamas was and still is backed by majority of Palestanians. Just look at the Palestanian protesters in the west. NONE of them condemned Hamas. NONE.
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