Friend of mine has a System76 laptop and had to talk to their support about issues with the webcam on certain apps. It was fixed but they asked him to check lsusb. This guy only knows the basics of the terminal from me having to teach him.
The windows environment, as f*d as it is, is the ONLY mental model they are capable of. I have a short list of very needy users who cannot remember their f’ing password. Any of them, much less that there are multiple passwords.
Every day it’s some random BS with email, or scroll bars or something that makes me think FFS why is everyone this incapable of grasping a simple web search??
I moved some of them to Apple because I’m not touching M$ with a ten-foot pole anymore. Oh god, the anguish I heard. The screams. The scroll bars just disappear!!! AAiiiiGhhhh! They close out windows and think that’s closing the program. “But I restarted it!” No you didn’t. They have no idea what desktops are, much less multiple ones. No C drive?? No C drive? complete catatonia. It’s never-ending.
Long story short, the entirety of the computer revolution (that was a thing we called it once, which was the style at the time) is very much just Windows for them. That’s it. If you can make a Linux system mirror exactly Windows 10 in every respect and - AND - run all of Microsoft’s products with no incursion of *nix-ism at all then they’ll be happy. Well, not happy. Not-always-crying-in-panic. Obviously, that’s never going to happen.
I’ve hated Microsoft for so long; I’ve long since given up on them ceasing to be a cancer on the modern world, it’s all I can do to just erase them from every corner of my computing experience where possible.
Oh, and then they tell me about some window with some warning text on it. My first question is: Who is asking? Is it something Windows is asking you? Is it some other app? Is it a fake ad on a website. Context matters a lot, and some people don’t seem to know that context even exists.
I’m not discounting System76’s support (hell to my friend Linux is hard, but rewarding), but I am saying that this sort of thing is still alien to the average consumer. I’ve seen university students not know what a command line is.
linux is great for two types of people… those that just need a browser or libreoffice and could use even a livecd or reset-on-reboot kiosk mode type se;tup that’s been set up for them, and those that want to get their hands dirty.
for everyone else, it can really be a pain in the ass sometimes when something goes wrong. help is fragmented in even more ways than the distros themselves, and every third response is usually something along the lines of ‘google it’ (“i did, that’s how i got here”) or ‘rtfm’ (“what fucking manual?”–documentation is lacking for soooo many things) and then silence.
at least with windows you should already know going-in that ‘backup and reinstall’ is probably high-up at #3 on the list of things to try/do, after you search and scan a much larger pile of resources specific to windows and its (relatively few, by comparison) different versions.
This is a take I would have agreed with 10 years ago but not today.
There’s also the SteamDeck and gaming is a very valid use case now. I do admittedly like getting my hands dirty but I use Linux as a daily driver for school and home.
The forum culture has gotten a bit better. It used to be like that more often 10 years ago but now people seem more helpful. It also really depends on what you google. (E.g. my desktop crashed Linux help vs gnome crash error from logs) But you’re also expecting a lot of free support from the community. If you need support buy Linux from a company that offers support like System76, Steam, etc.
Ok, and you can also just backup and reinstall Linux?? In fact some distros automatic snapshots of your system get taken and you can roll back from the terminal, GUI, or bootloader.
The last one I just don’t get. Windows errors are cryptic hieroglyphics or UX’d to uselessness. At least I’m Linux it tells me what went wrong either on the screen or in logs. Even with visual bugs I’ve been able to find an exact bug report with the developers response and the version it will be fixed in after some Googling.
help is fragmented in even more ways than the distros themselves, and every third response is usually something along the lines of ‘google it’ (“i did, that’s how i got here”) or ‘rtfm’ (“what fucking manual?”–documentation is lacking for soooo many things) and then silence.
This, and persistent sound driver issues, are what ultimately drove me away after using Linux as my primary for a few years. Forums were also filled with shorthand and they wouldn’t tell you what to actually type into the fucking terminal. Can’t figure out what the shorthand means? Too bad, because nobody will tell you.
Totally agree, but with the caveat that if you have to support this user anwyay, bite the bullet and switch to Apple - at least they can still run Office and pretend it’s windows while still benefitting from simply restarting everything as a fix.
My mom is running Fedora 38 on a T14 Gen 2. It’s much more reliable than her old macbook, but we did have some issues with the sound driver, and the fingerprint reader is like Sex Panther cologne - 60% of the time, it works every time.
Installing Linux through now-ubiquitous Calamares takes just a few minutes, it explains every step (of which only one is actually technical, which is drive partition, and the rest are like selecting time zone and admin password), and it’s extremely intuitive. It is literally easier than installing Windows.
But yeah, most people never installed Windows either, and just get it preinstalled.
Which is true, a lot of people see it as black magic. They are just used to what the product comes with, even if you could install iOS on an Android phones or the other way around, people would still buy an iphone cause it comes with it.
Don’t get me wrong. I use Linux extensively, but mostly server loads and gateways. But have used Mint and Rocky as desktops. So I can’t see how someone can reasonably argue that they have the same polish as Windows (or MacOS) for the average user. Too much command line, too many disparate tools without consistency, just to name a couple.
Linux has its place, but it is not for the average person yet. I wish it would get there, but for decades people have been saying this.
Just throwing more personal anecdotal story, I use Mint at home and Win10 at work. The amount of time something wonky happen at work, like Teams being Teams, or issues connecting to wifi, are much higher than at home.
The only time I’ve touch the command panel is when there’s some obscure programs I wanna try out. I don’t even know how to delete a file using the Command Panel without looking it up first.
Using Mint as an Internet machine, and even gaming in my case with Steam making it so much easier, I feel much less resistance with Mint compared to Win10. Win10 just hides everything away and I feel like I need to twist its arm just to maybe have it do things I want, and I just want to print something. Mint was literally just plug and print. Mint feels more like Win7 than Win10 ever did to me.
Honestly, this.
It’s very ironic, but with settings hidden God-knows-where and poor support for much of the advanced software, I find Windows way less polished and comfortable than Linux, despite many claiming the opposite
I’m also on a Framework 13 with a 144Hz external. These problems do sound like some beginner-level issues you’d run into on a distro that runs behind in updates.
The only officially recommended distros by framework are Fedora and Ubuntu (although I’ve run a wide range and they’ve all worked). They have guides here for all sorts.
Issues 1 and 3, you need to use Wayland on KDE or GNOME and both Wayland and the DE need to be up to date. This is an area where Linux is rapidly getting better.
Issue 2, should be adjustable in any DE settings panel. That’s a really strange one because I’ve never run into touchpad issues in my testing.
Issue 4, no idea. Logitech support is pretty good. Does this happen on all distro? I wonder if this is related to the touchpad issue.
Issue 5, they can be. It depends on your governor program. I strongly recommend setting up TLP. There’s some good guides out there in the FW forums. However, avoid disabling USB ports. For other governor solutions I’m sure there’s a config file laying around somewhere or perhaps it’s saving the last used setting.
Issue 5a, if the issue is fan noise. Check out fw-fanctrl.
Issue 6, this just has to be a Mint thing. I’ve had fingerprint reading working on everything. My guess is that maybe they’re missing the fprint package or the UI/UX is rough. You can set up finger print reading from the terminal.
Issue 7, just select FDE on install if the installer offers it. Linux uses dm-crypt for FDE and it has baked in HWE. I would imagine other Linux encryption programs are hardware accelerated by default as well as support for it is part of the kernel. But I may be wrong about that.
All in all your experience of Linux is going to be very distro dependent and yes it may take some work and troubleshooting. But I think it mostly feels harder because it’s different from what you’re used to.
I run EndeavorOS and like that it’s all basic defaults because then I can build it into what I want. I highly recommend it once you become a little more used to Linux.
See this right here is the reason I haven’t switched. 1, I don’t know what half of those things are. 2, there’s so much “this may work on this but sometimes maybe not that, unless this”, when it should be a matter of changing a setting. Yes, I could figure it all out after a massive amount of research consuming time that I do not have, or I just continue with Windows 10 and it’s stupid menus.
Well all issues except for changing the governor should be fixed by using Ubuntu and Fedora and installing per Framework’s install guide. The Encryption thing is a single toggle on install. The governor/TLP is a little more advanced but it’s only uninstalling like 2 programs, installing 2 programs, and you can configure it via GUI. And fw-fanctrl is optional.
It’s only complicated because I was explaining why.
For me Fedora on the framework worked out if the box and was configurable via GUI (except for non-free media codecs probably). Using a 144Hz external monitor, mixed scaling, Logitech ergo mouse, and thunderbolt dock.
I didn’t think it’s a massive amount of research but yes there is some learning that has to be done. If you switch from Windows to macOS you also have to learn new ways to do things. I don’t think it is unreasonable to expect the same for Linux. Expecting Linux to be a Windows clone with free support will never happen.
But I understand wanting to stick to Windows because it’s comfortable and what you’re used to. It’s how I feel about Linux now that I’m used to it. I’m not trying to proselytize. And I do still use Windows for specific use cases like some class assignments and 2000s era HI8/miniDV video conversion/restoration.
I personally enjoy knowing I can easily search for software I need, know it will run and install without issues and I won’t have to fuck around with poorly documented systems when something inevitably breaks.
Sure Windows pisses me off and sucks, but it’s still simpler to deal with.
it was somewhat controversial, but the mint people solved for this by including their own curated software manager (re:store) where you can search for (and install/uninstall) packages known to already work well with the distro.
most of my support calls are ‘wheres that thing i can install apps with?’
That came from Debian long before Mint even existed. The lineage goes Debian -> Ubuntu -> Mint, and the package manager was part of Debian since the 1990s (although you had to use it through the command-line back then.)
Use a popular Linux distro and employ the app store (that, unlike Windows Store, actually relies on insanely rich repositories that have just about anything) - installing apps on Linux is simpler than on Windows.
As per app support - 99% of all programs are either Linux-native or run just fine through Wine. Unless you have to work in field of engineering or employ Adobe software, you should be just fine
Yeah, I’ve used everything from Ubuntu to Arch and can use it just fine. That’s not my point. It’s hard to argue against that software discoverability is worse and implementation/documentation is inconsistent. To find a program for windows, I just need to search for what it does and multiple options show up without using a store or knowing a repo name. Installing is as easy as running an exe (no dependencies, or distro limitations, or editing specific files buried in the system).
I am no fan of Windows by any means, but I never have to worry about edge cases. I will always be able to do what I’m aiming for without fiddling with Wine or anything else.
I don’t think it is just your laptop. I’ve not been able to get the fingerprint reader to work properly on my Framework on Linux either. I think the support for them just sucks on Linux.
linux mint people. youre not really using as much windows as you think
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what maintenance? most of the peeps i have using it blindly are just automatically applying recommended updates.
Friend of mine has a System76 laptop and had to talk to their support about issues with the webcam on certain apps. It was fixed but they asked him to check
lsusb. This guy only knows the basics of the terminal from me having to teach him.And what would’ve Microsoft support said?
“Reinstall drivers, reboot, and pray it starts working!”
Troubleshooting Windows for non-tech people isn’t any easier in any way.
The windows environment, as f*d as it is, is the ONLY mental model they are capable of. I have a short list of very needy users who cannot remember their f’ing password. Any of them, much less that there are multiple passwords.
Every day it’s some random BS with email, or scroll bars or something that makes me think FFS why is everyone this incapable of grasping a simple web search??
I moved some of them to Apple because I’m not touching M$ with a ten-foot pole anymore. Oh god, the anguish I heard. The screams. The scroll bars just disappear!!! AAiiiiGhhhh! They close out windows and think that’s closing the program. “But I restarted it!” No you didn’t. They have no idea what desktops are, much less multiple ones. No C drive?? No C drive? complete catatonia. It’s never-ending.
Long story short, the entirety of the computer revolution (that was a thing we called it once, which was the style at the time) is very much just Windows for them. That’s it. If you can make a Linux system mirror exactly Windows 10 in every respect and - AND - run all of Microsoft’s products with no incursion of *nix-ism at all then they’ll be happy. Well, not happy. Not-always-crying-in-panic. Obviously, that’s never going to happen.
I’ve hated Microsoft for so long; I’ve long since given up on them ceasing to be a cancer on the modern world, it’s all I can do to just erase them from every corner of my computing experience where possible.
Oh, and then they tell me about some window with some warning text on it. My first question is: Who is asking? Is it something Windows is asking you? Is it some other app? Is it a fake ad on a website. Context matters a lot, and some people don’t seem to know that context even exists.
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And besides, Linux usually provides useful logs, so you don’t have to fumble in the dark.
I’m not discounting System76’s support (hell to my friend Linux is hard, but rewarding), but I am saying that this sort of thing is still alien to the average consumer. I’ve seen university students not know what a command line is.
Yes, but if Windows breaks it’s your fault. If Linux breaks it’s Linux’s fault.
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linux is great for two types of people… those that just need a browser or libreoffice and could use even a livecd or reset-on-reboot kiosk mode type se;tup that’s been set up for them, and those that want to get their hands dirty.
for everyone else, it can really be a pain in the ass sometimes when something goes wrong. help is fragmented in even more ways than the distros themselves, and every third response is usually something along the lines of ‘google it’ (“i did, that’s how i got here”) or ‘rtfm’ (“what fucking manual?”–documentation is lacking for soooo many things) and then silence.
at least with windows you should already know going-in that ‘backup and reinstall’ is probably high-up at #3 on the list of things to try/do, after you search and scan a much larger pile of resources specific to windows and its (relatively few, by comparison) different versions.
This is a take I would have agreed with 10 years ago but not today.
There’s also the SteamDeck and gaming is a very valid use case now. I do admittedly like getting my hands dirty but I use Linux as a daily driver for school and home.
The forum culture has gotten a bit better. It used to be like that more often 10 years ago but now people seem more helpful. It also really depends on what you google. (E.g. my desktop crashed Linux help vs gnome crash error from logs) But you’re also expecting a lot of free support from the community. If you need support buy Linux from a company that offers support like System76, Steam, etc.
Ok, and you can also just backup and reinstall Linux?? In fact some distros automatic snapshots of your system get taken and you can roll back from the terminal, GUI, or bootloader.
The last one I just don’t get. Windows errors are cryptic hieroglyphics or UX’d to uselessness. At least I’m Linux it tells me what went wrong either on the screen or in logs. Even with visual bugs I’ve been able to find an exact bug report with the developers response and the version it will be fixed in after some Googling.
This, and persistent sound driver issues, are what ultimately drove me away after using Linux as my primary for a few years. Forums were also filled with shorthand and they wouldn’t tell you what to actually type into the fucking terminal. Can’t figure out what the shorthand means? Too bad, because nobody will tell you.
Totally agree, but with the caveat that if you have to support this user anwyay, bite the bullet and switch to Apple - at least they can still run Office and pretend it’s windows while still benefitting from simply restarting everything as a fix.
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My mom is running Fedora 38 on a T14 Gen 2. It’s much more reliable than her old macbook, but we did have some issues with the sound driver, and the fingerprint reader is like Sex Panther cologne - 60% of the time, it works every time.
Why would you swap a MacBook to Linux?
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Makes sense!
If you have to hit the command line, it’s bad for most people.
You don’t really need commandline in linux anymore, unless your doing advanced stuff which means you should learn commandline anyway.
As others have said. The real obstacle is getting it all installed. The only advantage to win and mac is it comes preinstalled.
Installing Linux through now-ubiquitous Calamares takes just a few minutes, it explains every step (of which only one is actually technical, which is drive partition, and the rest are like selecting time zone and admin password), and it’s extremely intuitive. It is literally easier than installing Windows.
But yeah, most people never installed Windows either, and just get it preinstalled.
Peanuts for me but i am already in. Now try explain it to your (grand) parents.
Most people don’t know what a partition or a bios is.
I agree its not harder then installing windows but there is a reason that people ask me to install their windows.
Which is true, a lot of people see it as black magic. They are just used to what the product comes with, even if you could install iOS on an Android phones or the other way around, people would still buy an iphone cause it comes with it.
Don’t get me wrong. I use Linux extensively, but mostly server loads and gateways. But have used Mint and Rocky as desktops. So I can’t see how someone can reasonably argue that they have the same polish as Windows (or MacOS) for the average user. Too much command line, too many disparate tools without consistency, just to name a couple.
Linux has its place, but it is not for the average person yet. I wish it would get there, but for decades people have been saying this.
Just throwing more personal anecdotal story, I use Mint at home and Win10 at work. The amount of time something wonky happen at work, like Teams being Teams, or issues connecting to wifi, are much higher than at home.
The only time I’ve touch the command panel is when there’s some obscure programs I wanna try out. I don’t even know how to delete a file using the Command Panel without looking it up first.
Using Mint as an Internet machine, and even gaming in my case with Steam making it so much easier, I feel much less resistance with Mint compared to Win10. Win10 just hides everything away and I feel like I need to twist its arm just to maybe have it do things I want, and I just want to print something. Mint was literally just plug and print. Mint feels more like Win7 than Win10 ever did to me.
Honestly, this. It’s very ironic, but with settings hidden God-knows-where and poor support for much of the advanced software, I find Windows way less polished and comfortable than Linux, despite many claiming the opposite
People who claim the opposite either haven’t tried a mainstream distro in several years or they work for Microsoft.
I installed Linux mint on my Framework laptop because fuck windows.
I had to move back to windows, it didn’t feel ready and couldn’t get it working easily how I like.
Heres some of the issues(any pointers would be great)
Some stuff is better but a combination of these just brings me back to windows. It just loads and works?
I’m also on a Framework 13 with a 144Hz external. These problems do sound like some beginner-level issues you’d run into on a distro that runs behind in updates.
The only officially recommended distros by framework are Fedora and Ubuntu (although I’ve run a wide range and they’ve all worked). They have guides here for all sorts.
Issues 1 and 3, you need to use Wayland on KDE or GNOME and both Wayland and the DE need to be up to date. This is an area where Linux is rapidly getting better.
Issue 2, should be adjustable in any DE settings panel. That’s a really strange one because I’ve never run into touchpad issues in my testing.
Issue 4, no idea. Logitech support is pretty good. Does this happen on all distro? I wonder if this is related to the touchpad issue.
Issue 5, they can be. It depends on your governor program. I strongly recommend setting up TLP. There’s some good guides out there in the FW forums. However, avoid disabling USB ports. For other governor solutions I’m sure there’s a config file laying around somewhere or perhaps it’s saving the last used setting.
Issue 5a, if the issue is fan noise. Check out fw-fanctrl.
Issue 6, this just has to be a Mint thing. I’ve had fingerprint reading working on everything. My guess is that maybe they’re missing the fprint package or the UI/UX is rough. You can set up finger print reading from the terminal.
Issue 7, just select FDE on install if the installer offers it. Linux uses dm-crypt for FDE and it has baked in HWE. I would imagine other Linux encryption programs are hardware accelerated by default as well as support for it is part of the kernel. But I may be wrong about that.
All in all your experience of Linux is going to be very distro dependent and yes it may take some work and troubleshooting. But I think it mostly feels harder because it’s different from what you’re used to.
I run EndeavorOS and like that it’s all basic defaults because then I can build it into what I want. I highly recommend it once you become a little more used to Linux.
See this right here is the reason I haven’t switched. 1, I don’t know what half of those things are. 2, there’s so much “this may work on this but sometimes maybe not that, unless this”, when it should be a matter of changing a setting. Yes, I could figure it all out after a massive amount of research consuming time that I do not have, or I just continue with Windows 10 and it’s stupid menus.
Well all issues except for changing the governor should be fixed by using Ubuntu and Fedora and installing per Framework’s install guide. The Encryption thing is a single toggle on install. The governor/TLP is a little more advanced but it’s only uninstalling like 2 programs, installing 2 programs, and you can configure it via GUI. And fw-fanctrl is optional.
It’s only complicated because I was explaining why.
For me Fedora on the framework worked out if the box and was configurable via GUI (except for non-free media codecs probably). Using a 144Hz external monitor, mixed scaling, Logitech ergo mouse, and thunderbolt dock.
I didn’t think it’s a massive amount of research but yes there is some learning that has to be done. If you switch from Windows to macOS you also have to learn new ways to do things. I don’t think it is unreasonable to expect the same for Linux. Expecting Linux to be a Windows clone with free support will never happen.
But I understand wanting to stick to Windows because it’s comfortable and what you’re used to. It’s how I feel about Linux now that I’m used to it. I’m not trying to proselytize. And I do still use Windows for specific use cases like some class assignments and 2000s era HI8/miniDV video conversion/restoration.
I personally enjoy knowing I can easily search for software I need, know it will run and install without issues and I won’t have to fuck around with poorly documented systems when something inevitably breaks.
Sure Windows pisses me off and sucks, but it’s still simpler to deal with.
it was somewhat controversial, but the mint people solved for this by including their own curated software manager (re:store) where you can search for (and install/uninstall) packages known to already work well with the distro.
most of my support calls are ‘wheres that thing i can install apps with?’
That came from Debian long before Mint even existed. The lineage goes Debian -> Ubuntu -> Mint, and the package manager was part of Debian since the 1990s (although you had to use it through the command-line back then.)
yeah but where did debian get it, cuz we all know it was hitler.
Use a popular Linux distro and employ the app store (that, unlike Windows Store, actually relies on insanely rich repositories that have just about anything) - installing apps on Linux is simpler than on Windows.
As per app support - 99% of all programs are either Linux-native or run just fine through Wine. Unless you have to work in field of engineering or employ Adobe software, you should be just fine
Yeah, I’ve used everything from Ubuntu to Arch and can use it just fine. That’s not my point. It’s hard to argue against that software discoverability is worse and implementation/documentation is inconsistent. To find a program for windows, I just need to search for what it does and multiple options show up without using a store or knowing a repo name. Installing is as easy as running an exe (no dependencies, or distro limitations, or editing specific files buried in the system).
I am no fan of Windows by any means, but I never have to worry about edge cases. I will always be able to do what I’m aiming for without fiddling with Wine or anything else.
I wish but I have a Samsung notebook and the damn fingerprint reader won’t work on any Linux distribution.
uhg samsung. reminds me of sony… does sony still do laptops? they had the worst hardware driver support that ever existed.
They don’t. They killed the VAIO line of products in 2020.
I don’t think it is just your laptop. I’ve not been able to get the fingerprint reader to work properly on my Framework on Linux either. I think the support for them just sucks on Linux.
Biometrics are an end run around the fourth and fifth amendments.
On that note, mint does transparently allow you to use cloud resources like one drive (maybe not that specifically)
What?
I realized that I was holding my dual boot out of FUD. Was a relief when I went full Ubuntu.