At least 22 dead and 60 wounded.
To all of you out there who want no gun control. This blood is on your hands. Screw you and your 2nd amendment “rights.”
Edit: 18 dead, 13 wounded
Still waiting for the good guy with a gun they keep repeating
EDIT: OK everyone, yes he was the good guy with a gun. Thanks to everyone for pointing this out
Apparently, the shooter was a firearms instructor. Aka, good guy with a gun turned bad guy with a gun.
This crap will never end until the tools they use to kill are off the streets.
Apparently, the shooter was a firearms instructor.
Every gun owner thinks they’re a responsible gun owner.
Probably a “Look down the barrel to make sure there is no bullet in there” type.
Not my shocked face!!
…Support for Trump, among other politicians. As shown by the video, Card liked tweets from high-profile conservative figures such as Donald Trump Jnr., Tucker Carlson, Dinesh D’Souza. He also engaged with publications from former house speakers Kevin McCarthy and Jim Jordan, as per the video.
I think that’s the same error in judgement that leads the vast majority of motorists to believe their driving skills are above average. Forgot what it’s called.
Which is the key problem. Everyone is a “responsible gun owner” and “good guy with a gun”… until sometimes they suddenly aren’t anymore. At which point your protection is what was person able to keep under normal circumstances aka what they had in their possession on the moment they had a mental snap.
Was it a semi-auto shoot as fast as your finger pulls rifle with potentially hundreds of rounds in quick swap magazines or do they have a manual action hunting rifle or shotgun with fixed magazine, that need to be manually reloaded.
Do they have a pistol with again potentially hundreds of rounds of quick reload ammunition or don’t or maybe a target pistol with fixed magazine.
That is why places around the world have magazine and type restrictions, since they exactly know “checking backgrounds isn’t fool proof and now amount of background checking helps again sudden newly emerging situation after the checks have been done”.
Sure that 5 round moose hunting rifle will absolutely wreck say those 5 people, but one can’t exactly run amock shooting around endlessly with moose rifle. Damage limitation. 5 dead people is better situation, than 22 dead people. As cold calculating as that is.
Everyone is a “responsible gun owner” and “good guy with a gun”… until sometimes they suddenly aren’t anymore.
Yeah, and unpopular opinion likely but I think of this similarly to dogs turning on their owners.
And similarly I’d rather have a Yorkshire terrier go crazy on me than a Pitbull.
cough cough Uvalde cough
didn’t come because his mother aborted him /s
Yesterday the right said this WAS a good guy. Just let that sink in.
This guy is exactly the kind of person that the GOP considers a “good guy with a gun”. He is a mentally ill veteran firearms instructor. Sounds like a boilerplate Trump supporter. Exactly who they want to have more guns.
It’s even worse, GOP would want this guy to be an elementary school teacher as a “solution” to the school shootings. Broken, selfish, heartless cowards
Army vet and gun instructor… This was the good guy
There was a study published from data from the last like… 10 years, I believe, that show that people with guns are more likely to run away, and people WITHOUT guns, are more likely to jump in and try to stop the shooter.
So ya. These good guys with guns are just pussies that never actually use them for good.
Well yeah if they weren’t such gigantic cowards they wouldn’t buy guns.
Ya. I live in Canada, and I’ve never felt the need to own a gun. We have a TON of hunting guns here, but I think the fact we don’t allow open carry, changes the thought process of gun owners here, and we don’t see them as weapons to point at other people. They are more so seen as a tool for a hobby, like a fishing rod is used for fishing.
And honestly, if you avoid Toronto, violence in general is really low. Toronto is just… special.
And honestly, if you avoid Toronto, violence in general is really low. Toronto is just… special.
Toronto isn’t even in the top ten most dangerous…
That might be because people who own guns have had training in how not to get killed.
I’m not sure that saying gun owners should be quicker to shoot people is the right direction.
Maybe be the change you want to see in the world instead of bitching, then.
edit: go ahead and keep downvoting me, when the right does finally manage a coup they’ll be the only ones with any guns you stupid motherfuckers. For now, the 2nd amendment is your right – you want to forgo it until they take it away from you (and only you), be my guest.
You alright buddy?
If you check the other thread here, he’s clearly not.
Predicting a failure in background checks here allowing him to get a gun:
Edit
“The weapon believed to have been used in the attack was a sniper rifle with .308 caliber bullets, and it was purchased legally this year, officials said.”
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/lewiston-maine-shooting-robert-card-what-know-rcna122262
“Maine court records show that a man named Robert Card who was born on the same date as the person of interest was charged with speeding in 2001 and 2002. No other criminal records were listed in the state’s electronic court records system or in several other public records databases.”
But also:
"It added that law enforcement said Card ‘recently reported mental health issues to include hearing voices and threats to shoot up the National Guard Base in Saco, ME.’
The bulletin said Card was reported to have been committed to a mental health facility for two weeks this summer and then released. NBC News has not been able to independently verify the bulletin’s statements about Card’s history."
In previous incidents, people committed to mental health facilities didn’t have it turn up on their background check unless it was ordered by a judge. That needs to change.
I’m seeing varying reports that he was also convicted of domestic abuse, but this link shows no such charges.
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That would violate the 1st amendment right to religion.
As the late great Christopher Hitchens once said (paraphrasing here):
When god hears you that’s prayer. When you hear god that’s mental illness.
This is a common misconception.
If you talk to the imaginary being in the sky that is sane and you should be able to buy a tank or a machine gun.
If the imaginary being in the sky talks to you, you are a crazy person and should be limited to 6 rifles or less.
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Good
Yeah, but since no further help will be forthcoming, who will admit to it?
But my dog told me it was OK for me to keep a rifle.
Well if the dog says so how can we disagree? Give him a treat and some pats for me.
Agreed, including all the Evangelical preachers claiming “God spoke to me…”
Not very many people have argued that people who have actually made violent threats and been institutionalized should be buying guns.
The 5th Circuit Court (with at least one judge appointed by Trump) has ruled that removing the guns from a violent domestic abuser violates his rights: https://www.texastribune.org/2023/02/09/guns-domestic-abuse-second-amendment/
This guy was a firearms instructor. Literally a good guy with a gun turned into a bad guy with a gun.
The key point is that he was also recently institutionalized after making threats and SHOULD have had his guns seized, even under existing law.
Agreed, but we haven’t been enforcing red flag laws consistently since people start bitching about “mah rites” whenever you try to disarm someone threatening to kill their ex-GF.
Most of these laws, and most of the historic gun control in the US, is really intended to be used to keep guns from the “wrong sort” of people, and that means leftists and brown people generally. Crazy white guys were never the target of any prior firearms legislation or enforcement mechanism. That’s really the core of the problem here.
What was his ratemyprofessor rating?
Gallows humor really does hit different when your 2 hours into doom scrolling lol
You mean reddit humor?
Gallows humor existed long before Reddit came along. It will be here long after Reddit is forgotten.
Yeah, I just meant it was a lame joke befitting of reddit comedians and their fans.
True, but continuing to vote for representatives who refuse to have any conversation about gun control still makes them complicit in this behavior.
And Republicans will still refuse to do any sort of enforcement law.
Someone once told me, be careful of your thoughts for your thoughts may affect your words, be careful of your words because your words may come to become your actions, be careful of your actions for your actions may reflect on your character.
If you ask me, owning a firearm and making violent threats don’t necessarily mean actions, but I agree that there’s a definitive correlation. I guess that I still believe that the action itself is the most honest and serious commitment to something a person can express.
I think the fundamental issues with guns is that they SUBSTANTIALLY shorten the time and effort to put thoughts into action. Thinking “man, i want to kill everyone here.” is a pretty abstract thought, until you actually have the means to kill everyone there right at hand.
Jupp. And it’s so effortless. Try to pull that shit with a knife.
It doesn’t matter. Not what you say or how many people get slaughtered because of their powertripping fantasies.
The last time I argued with these folks, it was on r/Europe I think. Besides the rabid antics their arguments were…interesting? My favourite was „Imagine needing another man to protect your home“. Some time later one of them, a young English man, even became famous. By killing his mother and a couple of others. And of course it was a super incel with a multitude of mental health issues.
The point I’m trying to make is, they don’t care. Or at the very least they are deluded to a point that they don’t see what damage it does.
America has too many guns to ever have gun control. Move to Canada if you want that peace of mind.
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People have vices, violence is a vice too
I don’t know anyone who picks up a six pack of violence on their way home from work. Just kidding lmao I know what you mean.
Yup, you’re right, because millions of people have owned guns legally for hundreds of years, it’s their fault and blood is on their hands for this mass shooting.
Your past failure to learn from these continued atrocities is your complicity. Your current preference to protect the tools of violence over lives is your complicity. Your future vote to keep the status quo even as history repeats itself is your complicity.
Yup my failure to learn is my complicity, it’s all my fault. You sure know a lot about me. I’m going to need a few to come up with a better reply though, I’ve been coughing up straw all day.
Guns three hundred years ago were only slightly more dangerous than a guy with a rock and a mean your mama so fat joke. It isn’t hundreds of years it’s like 150 years.
I’d rather be shot with a modern hollow point today with modern medicine than shot with ball ammo and get the medical care from 300 years ago, but that’s just me.
Literally not even remotely relevant to what the conversation was but go off.
I’d also rather get hit with a semi truck today with modern medicine than get run over by a horse and carriage in 1840.
But I don’t see what that has to do with the fact that a semi truck traveling at max speed can level a small building vs a carriage just kinda flattening it’s own horses on impact.
I don’t see what any of this has to do with anything honestly. But go off.
Yes it is literally just you. You are the only person on earth gaming out situations where you have a choice between getting shot 300 years ago or shot today.
I’m feeling warm and tingly inside
You dropped this chief /s
10 million were tortured and shoved into ovens and gas chambers in Germany. That blood is on the hands of gun control supporters.
86 people were murdered and 434 injured with a rental truck in Nice, France. More than any other mass shooting in history. The tools are not the problem. Indiscriminate murder is incredibly easy and will remain so regardless of what laws you pass. The only thing you take away is the ability for individuals to defend themselves.
Guns have been an American pastime for as long as America has been around and yet only in the last ~30 years did we begin to see a rise in crimes of this type.
This guy was former military and it sounds like he was hallucinating. Better mental healthcare could have prevented this tragedy. Along with I’m sure a myriad of other, more difficult solutions.
A truck is not designed specifically to kill as many people as possible in as little time as possible. Most firearms are. This type of firearm certainly is.
You can’t sit in a hotel room in Las Vegas, hundreds of yards from a crowd, and kill 60 people and wound more than 400 with a truck or a knife. Very different tools.
And I really don’t care about your gun “pastime” or “rights.” I care about getting my kids safely home from school and how having 5-year-olds do active shooter drills. Insanity.
You can’t sit in a hotel room in Las Vegas, hundreds of yards from a crowd, and kill 60 people and wound more than 400 with a truck
Car bomb detonated by remote control, IRA style
A truck is not designed specifically to kill as many people as possible in as little time as possible. Most firearms are. This type of firearm certainly is.
And yet it does the job all the same. That’s the whole point.
And I really don’t care about your gun “pastime” or “rights.”
I’m sure it was intentional but you missed the point.
Did you even read my comment? Try throwing that truck from a hotel room in Vegas and see how many people it kills. It does not do the same job and it’s not designed to do the same job.
I don’t agree with Helen, but their point stands. The truck did complete the intended action of executing the 84 people all the same. That being said, there are more stop gaps for a reckless driver (bollards are everywhere in the US). Stopping someone with a loaded trigger is a lot harder. I think the France situation was exceptional and not a standard road rage incident/attack. What would need to happen to have a fair assessment is compare the per capita fatality from road rage incidents to armed attacks.
It happened in Berlin at the Breitscheidplatz in 2016 on a christmas fair too where 12 people were murdered by an islamist with a truck. Since these events I feel I’ve seen a lot more concrete roadblocks capable to stop trucks here in populated areas in european cities.
LOL your comment is completely ridiculous. You obviously don’t need to throw it from a hotel room, you can simply drive it down a road full of people.
I have literally no idea what your point is.
A couple points.
One: No armed militia is going to stop the US 7bn dollar military apparatus on home territory. Don’t bring up Vietnam. Don’t bring up Afghanistan. If you think gravy seals navy is anything compared to the Viet Cong you are deluded.
Two: using the France terrorist road vehicle attack as a counter is disingenuous use of stats/numbers. You can’t compare a singular attack to the average gun based attacks in the US. What you would do -if you really cared to compare them- is take the average per capita road rage incident or vehicle based murders and compare them to the gun related mass shootings / deaths. You can control for many factors too (time frames, region, age, etc). Something about guns being readily available makes them more likely to be used. We have millions of people driving and only so many intentional terrorist attacks using vehicles.
One: No armed militia is going to stop the US 7bn dollar military apparatus on home territory.
It’s a tired argument I’m not interested in taking up again, but the answer is yes, they can. The military didn’t drop bombs on Waco.
You can’t compare a singular attack to the average gun based attacks in the US.
I didn’t. I compared it to every mass shooting in the history of the country. The moral of the story (since you missed it) is that you can ban guns and it won’t stop people from just using something else when they want to hurt large groups of random people.
Something about guns being readily available makes them more likely to be used.
Which is precisely why “gun deaths” and “gun violence” is a terrible metric. Even if you could theoretically take them all away, they’d just use something else (like a rental truck). Notice a theme here?
Yes. The theme is your inability to understand stats. If cars, which are more readily available than guns are able to cause more damage every shooter would go for that but reality is guns are easier. Sure, if they’re determined they will find a way, but people tend to go for the easiest path. Deterrents tend to slow the process as studies have shown. That’s why looking at stats is so useful for understanding circumstances and deterrents. That’s if you really wanted to have an unbiased honest conversation.
Waco is not serving your argument. Firstly, the military was not involved. Second, we’re talking 4 ATF agents lost compared to 76 adults. Soooo…I don’t see the relevance. The Xbox gravy seals is not going to live up to it’s expectations. Shit, is proud boys the best example of the 2a crowd because they look like they can’t run a mile either (that’s must my opinion though, maybe the photos are deceiving).
The theme is your inability to understand stats.
…what stats? You mean stats of the most successful mass murders? I think that belongs to trucks and planes.
If cars, which are more readily available than guns are able to cause more damage every shooter would go for that but reality is guns are easier.
Guns are just what they see on TV. Lots of people use cars, bombs or whatever else. In the case of France they didn’t have guns, but it obviously didn’t stop them.
Waco is not serving your argument. Firstly, the military was not involved.
Uuuuhhh but that WAS my argument…
Second, we’re talking 4 ATF agents lost compared to 76 adults
It doesn’t matter. No one is keeping score. The point is they stood up for themselves and gave the ATF a fuckin’ helluva time. Wanna take a poll on how many armed citizens there are vs. ATF agents? Or even the entirety of the US military?
Yea the military was never involved. So it has nothing to do with my initial point. Buck and Chuck are not taking down the US army. I don’t know why we got sidetracked with it.
You’re the one who brought it up?
The point is the military won’t be dropping bombs on its own people.
The military didn’t drop bombs on Waco.
That’s because the FBI dropped tear gas and then in the confusion, Waco militia accidentally set the entire place on fire.
There is a mountain of evidence to indicate that that’s not at all what happened.
Show me then, I’m ignorant of the Waco raid.
Educate yourself, it’ll be good for you.
gas chambers in Germany. That blood is on the hands of gun control supporters.
The “nazi gun control supported the holocaust” argument has been debunked for a very long time. Argument debunk Nazi gun control laws
Frtuermore, gun control supporters of today are not the same as NAZI gun control supporters - who disarmed Jews.
This misinformation disappoints me, but the nature of your comment is overwhelmingly correct.
The tools are not the problem. Indiscriminate murder is incredibly easy and will remain so regardless of what laws you pass.
Horrifying words that ring true. Gun control is in my opinion moot for many reasons. This guy deserved more healthcare.
Your arguments about vans are OK but your fascist talking points tell me you’re not worth listening to.
The “nazi gun control supported the holocaust” argument has been debunked
No, it hasn’t. Several people have provided their opinions on the matter. Certainly biased opinions. It can’t be “debunked” with anything less than a time machine and a militia the size that would make the NRA blush.
Frtuermore, gun control supporters of today are not the same as NAZI gun control supporters - who disarmed Jews.
Doesn’t matter if they’re the same or not. Only thing that matters is whether the people are disarmed. Regimes change.
The fucking 1% of Germans who were jewish, who were forcefully disarmed were not going to avoid getting genocided by remaining armed or trying to purchase more arms.
Yes. They would. And they killed more than the jews, you know? About 40% we’re non-Jewish.
“… It is preposterous to argue that the possession of firearms would have enabled them to mount resistance against a systematic program of persecution implemented by a modern bureaucracy, enforced by a well-armed police state, and either supported or tolerated by the majority of the German population.” - Alan E. Steinweis, NYT Source
Your arguments so far are that people saying this are obviously biased. If we assume those persecuted could have gained firearms, armed themselves and formed a highly organized militia - all while facing road blocks at each and every turn - do you really think this militia could have kept a genocide from occurring?
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There are so many guns in the US right now that it’s ridiculous. Gun control here would be great… If it were done a hundred years ago. I’m not saying I’m against common sense laws, but like… Pandoras box is open here.
There are 120 firearms for every 100 civilians that live in the U.S. We have 46% of the total worldwide statistic for civilian ownership. The US makes up only a meager 331.9 million out of 7.89 billion people worldwide. That means 4.2% of the world owns 46% of the guns… And those people are all American.
On top of this, some of the most heinous shootings in US history were performed with illegally obtained weapons. Columbine is one of the examples most will recognize.
I’m not leading up to anything here, I just wanted to educate everyone on how fucked we are.
I’m not leading up to anything here, I just wanted to educate everyone on how fucked we are.
Definitely, but your argument is unfortunately what keeps us from ever doing anything about it. Thinking that it can’t be done is just not good enough.
Age limits and rubber bullets for veterans would probably help
I am against gun control laws and this blood is not on my hands.
You may be blind to it, but it’s there.
Your past failure to learn from these continued atrocities is your complicity. Your current preference to protect the tools of violence over lives is your complicity. Your future vote to keep the status quo even as history repeats itself is your complicity.
On the contrary. I believe the tools of violence are the only things that will allow us to protect lives.
Gun control has historically been used as a tool to oppress further those who resist oppression. You can see it today, every murder by the police is defended with “they reached for my gun” or “they had a gun”. The gun control laws you want will be enforced by the police and they will be enforced selectively against minorities. The atrocities you reference are almost universally committed by right wing straight white men. I can assure you no gun control will stop them from acquiring firearms.
There is an explicit example of this in Israel today. The settlers are allowed and encouraged to possess firearms while the Palestinians are explicitly disallowed.
It’s ahistoric to say that gun control will save lives. This country only implemented gun control when indigenous and black people began carrying firearms in self defense. Many black men concealed carried pistols to defend against lynchings which is how we have concealed carry restrictions. Because it became illegal to conceal carry, the lynchings continued. Atrocities continue.
This has gotta be the most informed comment in the entire thread.
While I appreciate your effort to sound informed, you’re wrong.
The US is the only developed country in the world with a serious gun violence issue and it’s also the only developed country where firearms are flooding the streets.
The US is not more mentally ill than other developed countries. The difference is access to weapons. You can choose to live in denial about that, because you prioritize your weapons over lives, but, like I said, that makes you complicit.
I don’t think you read my comment. I didn’t mention mental illness. And I explained how access to firearms will not be restricted to those who commit the violence.
I would prefer to live in a country with no guns but that is not the reality we live in. And it will not be the reality no matter how many laws get pressed. They will be selectively enforced by a fascist police force.
In Colorado, there is a magazine capacity limit of 15 rounds. The police choose not to enforce this. You can walk into any gun store and buy a drum magazine holding 150 rounds. In a metropolitan area with probably the most horrific mass shootings. The only time it will ever be a crime is when the police murder a brown person with a magazine holding more than 15 rounds.
I understand you want to live in a safe community and don’t want to read news about mass shooters every week. I think you should accept this and act accordingly, don’t bring a knife to a gun fight. The people who hold power do not care and laws they would implement would not stop the violence and would disenfranchise vulnerable communities.
I appreciate your honesty and perspective from where you sit. But this is also exactly why things never change and we experienced massacre after massacre. That “it can’t be done” attitude. It can be done if you vote for people who want to do something about this. The reality is that, in general, Republicans don’t want anything to change, so they will never get my vote. Whenever I can, I vote for candidates who want to press a full repeal of the 2nd amendment. No guns = no gun violence.
If there were to be an actual ban on firearms that starts with the police, I would support it.
Republicans passed the mulford act in California.
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Get rid of guns and you can stop this.
It’s the most basic solution that even conservatives can understand.
They seem to apply the following logic to everything else:
Stop immigrants? Build wall
Stop terrorists? Kill them
Stop homeless? Bus them
Stop poor? Tax cut
Stop mass shootings? Ban guns
Ok wait a minute. The conservatives are wrong on all 4 of those. So are you saying that logic would be wrong for banning guns also? Not sure which argument you are making here.
What I’m saying is that if you applied their logic it should hold true that they’d just ban guns.
But they don’t, which is weird.
they don’t like immigrants, the homeless, poor, etc. They do like guns.
You’re right. If we only banned guns this would stop.
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No one’s even saying you have to ban all guns! Just common sense gun control would have prevented this! The dude was in an asylum and heard voices!!!
If they had taken the guns of this obviously troubled person, all those innocent people would have been unharmed…
No, no I’m saying ban all guns. At least one person is saying that.
Just a nornal day in US
Yah but not for maine. It’s a very quite state
This one shooter is likely to nearly match the TOTAL homicide rate for Maine last year (30). I think that when a state is looking at HALF THIER TOTAL MURDERS being from a mass shooting event, its time to stop treating them as an insignificant aberration and as a legitimate contributor to overall violence.
No, it really isn’t.
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They’re cool with it.
If Conservative used bows, we wouldn’t be in this situation.
I love how ppl who know nothing about guns are talking about how “it can’t be full auto because $$$$”
Shut the fuck up u fools …
U can buy a $20 auto sear online that makes any ar full auto. Yes its illegal. No one cares.
I don’t see people saying that.
Maybe read more.
Maybe stop trying to manufacture outrage.
Lol yeah that’s what I was doing. Is da baby twiggewed??
🥱
Gonna block you now. Sorry I gave you the chance, lol.
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None of this comment is relevant to anything I said
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Well isn’t that a detailed thought process. Congrats man, you’ve thought this through deeper than I have
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Agreed. I could speak for myself, and have done so in the past of my own good faith only to have many misunderstandings and misguided attempts to either scapegoat or pedestal my experiences.
But just as a general observation, sometimes human built systems tend to produce a minimum degree of suffering and chaotic human behaviour, e.g. familicide, war and crime, this is not on purpose or by design, but simply an example of bad systems engineering, malicious use of technology, etc, and at times incredibly bad faith, between people, where a degree of “human sacrifice” and suffering is normalised to push a dogma or maintain a certain status quo.
If humanity were to come across or produce another intelligent alien species that then turned around to criticize our very systems and methods of work, then it’s important to consider that we would be stupid to ignore them, because ignorance is oftentimes bliss, but in certain cases can mean displacement.
The big risk in the near future, however is not necessarily displacement yet but the dismemberment of all of our systems or the opposite, the preservation of the status quo to the point of total failure. Finding the middle ground and creating as many opportunities for common ground and potential harmony as possible in order not only to avoid a direct conflict, but to work towards simply have a good working relationship for everyone’s good
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Here’s the thousands of Glock switch videos on YouTube. None of these kids getting raided by the atf.
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The big secret is ful auto or not doesn’t matter, that gun will shoot as fast as you can pull the trigger. And someone like This I’m sure knows how to bump fire from damn near any position.
Yeah, people think that being able to fire off a whole magazine with one squeeze of the trigger means they can mow down 30 people like a gangster from an old black and white movie.
If anything, full auto would just make their shots less accurate and they’d run out of ammo faster in the heat of the moment.
I would use burst fire fairly often but otherwise semi auto was plenty effective. Outside of really rare circumstances fully auto would do little more than show of force and waste ammo.
22 dead, 50-60 injured.
That poor ER
That’s really not who needs your pity right now.
Sympathy isn’t zero sum; that staff will absolutely be traumatized by this and does deserve consideration
The shooter is still at large.
Robert Card
Excerpt from the US version of the Prayer of the Lord: “… and give us today our daily
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did they ask the guy with the huge gun what United States American political group he affiliates with? I feel like that’s the question everyone’s asking but I don’t know because I didn’t actually look
Must be an automatic weapon fired into a crowd to have that many casualties…
Automatic probably would have had fewer since it would have missed with most the shots. Lethality like that requires controlled and aimed fire with individual shots.
I believe the suspect that the police have identified was a firearms instructor at a military base down in Saco.
If it was a dense crowd, an automatic has more than enough accuracy to hit a ton of people since you do not need much accuracy at all in that scenario.
Automatics are extremely expensive, rare and usually illegal to own. They also do not have much tactical use in a scenario like this. Continued fire is primarily for suppression in squad movements. Sainted individual shots will always be more effective for portable, handheld weapons.
Not sure where I claimed automatics were cheap and easy to obtain…
I am aware how they are generally used. They are also generally used in the military where the objective is not to kill a mass concentration of people. When your target is huge, pointed, individual shots are not going to better since accuracy is not really necessary.
That being said, it does not seem to be the case here since this was in a bowling alley. The guy was a firearms instructor.
All you’re doing is showing that you’ve never actually fired an automatic weapon, because what you are saying is flat out wrong. Even in a bowling alley or somewhere else with densely packed people, automatic fire is going to miss with the majority of rounds fired. Pinpoint accuracy is not required but some sort of accuracy is; in even the best conditions automatic is simply too uncontrollable and too fast. If he was actually a firearms instructor he would absolutely know this as well.
I have fired full auto several times. A bowling alley is not that densely packed. Some place like a concert would be densely packed like when the shooter in Vegas used bump stocks to essentially fire full auto and would over 400 people and kill 60. A gun with a bump stock has worse accuracy than a fully automatic gun but he still managed to do a hell of a lot of damage in a short period of time.
Vegas it was never determined by the investigation if he used bump stocks or illegally modified full autos. He also fired more than 1100 rounds into a crowd upwards of 20,000 and killed 60 with less than 500 injuries to include shrapnel. He missed with the majority of his shots in a far denser crowd and from a fixed firing position where the guns were functionally mounted versus being hand held.
But they are the guy ur responding to is pretending sear switches arent $20 and he’s pretending u need to buy a fully auto weapon instead of a 600 m&p ar and a $20 eBay part.
Sear is $20 u doughnut. No one is buying fully auto guns
Most guns have some simple way to convert to full auto illegally but if the talk is about preventing atrocities with bans, like the general discussion here, they are already banned.
For AR-15s it’s not a sear though, you’re thinking of glocks which function completely differently.
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Yeah, DIAS aren’t $20 or that easy to make and as such aren’t as common on the black market. They are doable for someone with machining skills but for an AR a lightning link is the normal illegal conversion.
Some photos I’ve seen show a extended clip and a scope.
All the photos I’ve seen are normal magazines, I’ve also never seen an AR that takes clips. Optics are kinda standard for most rifles these days and even many pistols too. Nothing really out of the ordinary. He seems far more proficient with the weapon and tactics though, training is a much bigger factor in lethality than equipment.
He’s also a firearm instructor. Fuckin rough combination for an active shooter.
It’s a magazine. Clips are for another type of rifle that allow quick reloading. You aren’t looking in a scope if you’re shooting a full auto weapon.
As much as USA is pro-gun, I thought automatics are not sold?
Regardless as the other comment says, firing on full auto is a waste of ammo. Back in service our first range practice we were given the Rambo-fantasy; hip firing at full auto at 10 metres out. No one hit any of the targets. It was a lesson to us that firearms, as easy as they are to use, needed at least some skill to be effective.
They aren’t.
Caveat: There are ways to simulate full automatics (e.g. bump stock), and also some guns can be converted into full automatic.
Trump banned bump stocks. It’s the only gun control that’s held up in court in around 20 years.
Now look up full auto sears for $25
Yes full auto weapons used to be trivial to buy, it’s been more than 20 years since that was the case.
Look up lightning link and realize you’re an idiot
Full auto guns can be purchased. Most often they’re prior 80s ban guns. They’re older generally, although there are some newer full auto guns that have been hitting the market lately. They all require you to have full background checks and they’re serialized to match. The ATF is the one though that you have to register through to legally acquire one and from what I’ve heard it’s kind of a bitch to get approval on them (as it should be).
How have there been newer full-auto weapons on the market? I thought everything registered after 1986 was banned (not technically, but the ATF wouldn’t approve the tax stamp to register anything after 1986).
For the general public, there aren’t. If you want a machine gun of new manufacture, you have to go through the whole process to be licensed as a manufacturer, SOT, FFL type whatever. I forget exactly. And you have to show you’re actually doing business to get and keep that license.
Technically no. You can still get a fly automatic but they are expensive as hell. A cheaper solution would be a bump stock but that is even less accurate than an automatic. You could also illegally build your own.
As for ability to hit targets, how close together and how many were the targets? If it is a few targets spread out over 10-20 meters, yeah going full auto is going to miss a lot. Having dozens of people packed into a small area makes accuracy less important.
What’s a bump stock?Went to read about them; the inventing company has stopped making them, are they still easy to get?They popped up the range targets, so not as tight as a packed crowd, but you’d think at least one would get hit. My impression was that it was really hard to control the recoil making the barrel going up, so most of my rounds just went over the targets.
They were banned by the Trump administration.
Yes they are significantly harder to aim than an actual automatic firearm, which is significantly harder to aim than a semi-automatic firearm, but if you’re firing into a crowd of people indiscriminately, such as the Las Vegas shooter, it doesn’t particularly matter.
No because they are illegal. The only thing good to come out of the Trump admin.
As much as USA is pro-gun, I thought automatics are not sold?
It’s complicated. The short answer is yes, but there are a couple of ways you can get them.
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Buy a REALLLY old one for tens of thousands of dollars.
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Become a licensed federal firearms dealer (FFL).
Alternatively you can do it the easy way and make an auto-sear out of some scrap metal. Because if you’re murdering dozens of people indiscriminately you’re probably not terribly concerned about an extra charge for an unlicensed automatic firearm.
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Were there 100 targets all right next to each other all within 50ft?
Highly unlikely unless he built it himself. Machine guns (automatic weapons) are extremely expensive (anywhere from the cost of a new car to a new house, depending on the model) and require you to submit to a colonoscopy, administered courtesy of the ATF. The result is that it’s extremely rare for a legally-owned machine gun to be used in a shooting (afaik it’s only happened once or twice since the ATF introduced tax stamps for them).
The thing that confuses me is why it is the government is able to restrict automatic weapons and weapons above a certain caliber through what is effectively a license system, but isn’t able to restrict anything else because it’d run afoul of the 2nd amendment.
Guns should be like cars. No one should feel like they need one (except if it’s part of your work, in which case your work should be providing one), and like a car, different kinds of guns should have different licenses. You want a double-barrel shotgun? Okay. You have to go through a week of training to get a basic redneck license and show you have a gun safe (not a cheapo lockbox) to keep it in when not in use. You want a machine gun? Cool. You have to get the super-ultra-deluxe gun owner’s license that requires a year of training, authorization from the ATF and FBI, and proof that you have a gun safe to store it in.
Oh yeah, and if your gun is stolen and it was improperly secured and/or you fail to report it in a reasonable amount of time then your license(s) are permanently revoked and you’re considered to be an accomplice to whatever crimes were committed with it.
I’d be willing that the last bit would dramatically cut down school shootings specifically.
I can buy a car with cash, no bg check, no license, no insurance, no training, no age restriction and drive it and use it on my private property…I can also move it across state lines with no issue. I can also buy any size car or truck without anything as well. So no your car analogy doesn’t work.
And no that last bit wouldn’t cut down on school shootings, as most are done with handguns in the inner cities using illegally obtained firearms already, and are usually gang oriented.
Tons of other things would cut down on our violence issue, but they’re harder to pull off and politicians like to have a virtue signaling single voter issue to rely on.
Nah the real issue isn’t firearms, it’s just that Americans have a culture that celebrates having a massive hateboner for things and can tend towards violence as a result, just look at certain parts of the Middle East, same thing
You’re not wrong. We’re a very divided group right now.
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