If only people could understand the basic concept that hating a government is possible without hating the people living there.
Exactly. Hamas is a monstrous organization based on the most corrupted religious fundamentalism, but I have nothing but love for the people of Gaza.
Reminder that Hamas is widely supported by most Palestinians
53% of Palestinians believe Hamas is “most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people”
https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87
First of all I really wouldn’t put much weight on the voting results in an area where Hamas uses violence for decades to keep in power. Especially if there isn’t any semblance of a modern democratic state such as regular(!!) elections, freedom of speech and a free press. A 1-2 generation long youth indoctrination like the Nazis did also really doesn’t create an educated and politically mature population.
And of course 53% still leaves a huge amount of people who aren’t in favour. Not to mention that there is a 70+ year long ongoing conflict which has left pretty much no one in Gaza (or Israel for that matter) who doesn’t know someone getting hurt or killed by the opposing side’s actions. It’s hardly surprising that there’s hard feeling (major understatement) in a lot of people.
And lastly we certainly wouldn’t want to use public opinion as justification for killing civilians. That’s the reasoning the likes of Osama bin Laden do to justify shit like 9/11.
TL;DR: This conflict is complicated as hell and basically a self fueling cycle of hatred where even the good side is acting very shitty a lot of times.
maybe it’s not complicated. All groups who fight oppressors have been labelled as violent extremists. so perhaps it’s actually quite simple.
This conflict is anything but simple. Nearly a century of bloody violence by both sides seldom makes for a clear good vs evil conflict. The fact that Hamas still is the worse autocratic despotic ruler when compared to the hardliner wanna be authoritarians of Netanyahu’s party proves that. Fighting back against oppression doesn’t absolve you from the human duty of compassion and when you indiscriminately kill civilians your fight isn’t justice anymore but just another crime against humanity!
Maybe back when the Zionist militants/terrorist first started to wage their war to get their own country one could have pointed at one side as the good one. But since then both sides have committed countless atrocities. The only thing for sure is that neither kids deserve to grow up in such an environment and to be raised to continue the fight for another generation.
Seems like the Palestinians want the right to return to their homes and communities and Israel just can’t find a way to give a damn.
whatever do you mean by “the good side”? there is no good side.
This.
Because they feel that trying to reason with Israel has zero effect.
Statistics without context are worse than lies.
I think he was referring to Israel?
The ol Lemmy switcheroo.
Hold my pita and hamas, I’m goin in!
I don’t think so. Hamas makes way more sense
I know that Israel has been doing nothing but brutalizing Palestinians, but Hamas shot back a few times so they’re basically the same.
I know, right? Don’t they know reality is a zero sum game?
Horrific acts done against a group of people cancel out the horrific acts they do. As long as the other side is “worse” you can torture, murder, and rape all you want – it’s totally justified. Especially if you indiscriminately target defensless civilian populations for your “revenge”.
You are morally obliged to shoot and kill people who are invading your country. The fact that includes civilians is not the fault of Hamas. Just a thought: if you don’t want to get killed in a war maybe don’t kick out the inhabitants to move into an active war zone??
And yes, it’s an active war zone. Even the EU calls them what they are: an illegal occupation. You are passively supporting ethnic genocide.
Should US border guards shoot women and children trying to illegally cross in from Mexico?
Those civilians who are now being killed live mostly on the border of Gaza - these aren’t settlers, they don’t live in occupied territory.
Many others who were killed and kidnapped were kids at a rave near the border. Were the terrorists morally obliged to shoot them? Were they morally obliged to strip the women and beat them and post the videos online? Was the German tourist they did this to yesterday an invader?
Israel has targeted health centers and large apartment blocks as reprisals. they threated to punish the whole population by switching off electricity.
why are they even in control of the electricity?
why are they allowing settlers to create illegal settlements?
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lemee speedrunning their defederation
Can you only think in terms of groups? Believe it or not, I did not join lemm.ee because of my politics or whatever, I just like the name.
Interesting that your first response to an opinion you don’t agree with is a call for defederation. Ignoring the opinions and ideas of people you disagree with puts you in an echo chamber.
not sure why you conflate women and children seeking asylum as invaders. that’s embarrassing.
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Ukrainians have killed civilians but I don’t think they generally target civilians in the way Hamas does. We should absolutely be arming palestinian moderates to prevent incursions and settlements like we are in Ukraine, though.
Israel does though
why can’t we all just live in my peace and tranquility.
Palestine has been trying peace for well over a decade. Israel doesn’t care. They like the violence and they benefit from the violence.
my comment was meant to be sarcastic. it’s easy for the oppressors to wonder why the oppressed won’t just roll over and take the boot.
Yes soooooo peaceful to elect a government who’s founding charter calls for the killing of every single Jew in Israel and out of it. Oh my God I can’t get over how peaceful it is. Those poor Palestinians not being able to genocide Israel goly gee willikers.
I didn’t realize “doing nothing but brutalizing Palestinians” includes providing power and water to the gaza strip because the Palestinian leadership was too corrupt build power and water treatment plants with the numerous millions of dollars of international and Israeli aid earmarked for that purpose.
My dude, Palestine has been attacked by terrorists and forced to split its country in two. It’s irellevant if the terrorists then went “here, have some money you poor fucks”. They still stole the land and homes of the people living there. They still are responsible for a mass exodus, and the destruction of a nation. They still killed millions to keep that land theirs.
Don’t get it twisted. Their humanitarian efforts are not because they’re good people. They’re just so they can keep feigning legitimacy and moral superiority.
But it seems the ship has sailed and everyone’s collective mind doesn’t go back before the 1990s, so I guess fuck Palestine, what a mean thing to do, how dare you bomb the
terrorists that reside in your homescivilians.They didn’t kill millions, my dude, in any point in time. And Palestinian nationalism literally developed as a response to Zionism. Pan Arabism was very much the order of the day until the 48 war. Do you not understand how the fellahin had their land sold out from under them by the landed Arab gentry living in Beirut? There’s plenty of blame to go around, but feel free to pretend that the Jews are the only reason the Palestinians are in the position they are today.
Yes, exactly. It’s worth noting though, that many good people are brought into these regimes, and are folded into the hate by their leaders, and the hate they receive from the extremists that oppose them. Not only do terrorists and gangs harm those they seek to harm, but they also grow and root their evil into the normal and healthy communities they base themselves in. Both Hamas and Israel are poisoning their own people more than those they directly kill.
Yes, but also that hating a government (or even just decisions of a government) doesn’t extend to hating people across the globe who identify with the same religion that government is using to oppress people.
(American Jew who hates what Israel is doing)
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I think that’s a question that every Jewish person would have a different answer to. For me, I’m an Atheist Jew; but religion is more than blind faith, it contains culture, values, and yes peoplehood. I like being part of a small and tight community, sharing ethical discussions and rituals with those in it.
Like most similar questions, yours comes down to semantics. How do you define religion? A people? My concern with questions like that is it can be interpreted by some maliciously. E.g. They’re not a religion like us, they’re a race and we must exterminate them.
One of my favorite quotes:
If I have one message to give to the secular American people, it’s that the world is not divided into countries. The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don’t know each other, but we talk together and we understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same. - Marjane SatrapiDifferent situation, same idea.
I mean, look at the United States
Russians understand. Belorusians too.
Original comment has 3 downvotes, mine 9. “It’s different” it seems.
Israel claims to be a democracy and also commits genocide.
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Democracy and genocide are separate
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Israel is by definition obviously not committing genocide, the Palestinians population is only going up
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A reminder:
Palestinians are awesome!
The genocidal regime that rules over Gaza who murder innocent people while blocking Palestinian democracy is NOT AWESOME!
What about all the Palestinians internationally that are currently celebrating that massacre?
Yeah those guys are on the side of the genocidal regime.
Palestinian fascism… Hamas won the election with just a plurality of the vote then permanently suspended elections ever since. Same old story. Odd how it’s never talked about. I suppose Palestinian fascism complicates support for Palestine for the left so they pretend it isn’t a thing, while it also complicates the “them people are all terrorists” narrative ofr the right.
It’s hard to determine the popularity of Hamas now (there has been an election in over a decade and a half) in the Palestinian population. There is obviously support of the genocidal maniacs in the Palestinian populace because of those celebrations. The people that support Hamas have either been duped by their propaganda or are just straight up evil, or both.
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Probably the same as all the Jewish and Christian people internationally that celebrate and monetarily and militarily support the Israeli apartheid regime even as they would kill innocents, cut off water and supplies, and kill journalists. ESH.
Palestinian citizens are given supplies by the IDF. I always found accusations of cutting supplies to citizens very uninformed.
People also conveniently ignore that the Palestinians have been getting Israeli and international aid for decades that was supposed to go into building infrastructure like power plants and water treatment facilities. Instead the money went straight into the pockets of the Fatah/PLO and Israel up to this very day has been supplying power and water to Gaza and West Bank. The Palestinian leadership was corrupt as fuck.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/
In November 1967 the Israeli authorities issued Military Order 158, which stated that Palestinians could not construct any new water installation without first obtaining a permit from the Israeli army. Since then, the extraction of water from any new source or the development of any new water infrastructure would require permits from Israel, which are near impossible to obtain. Palestinians living under Israel’s military occupation continue to suffer the devastating consequences of this order until today. They are unable to drill new water wells, install pumps or deepen existing wells, in addition to being denied access to the Jordan River and fresh water springs. Israel even controls the collection of rain water throughout most of the West Bank, and rainwater harvesting cisterns owned by Palestinian communities are often destroyed by the Israeli army. As a result, some 180 Palestinian communities in rural areas in the occupied West Bank have no access to running water, according to OCHA. Even in towns and villages which are connected to the water network, the taps often run dry.
[…]
In Gaza, some 90-95 per cent of the water supply is contaminated and unfit for human consumption. Israel does not allow water to be transferred from the West Bank to Gaza, and Gaza’s only fresh water resource, the Coastal Aquifer, is insufficient for the needs of the population and is being increasingly depleted by over-extraction and contaminated by sewage and seawater infiltration.
The resulting disparity in access to water between Israelis and Palestinians is truly staggering. Water consumption by Israelis is at least four times that of Palestinians living in the OPT. Palestinians consume on average 73 litres of water a day per person, which is well below the World Health Organization’s (WHO) recommended daily minimum of 100 litres per capita. In many herding communities in the West Bank, the water consumption for thousands of Palestinians is as low as 20 litres per person a day, according to the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA). By contrast, an average Israeli consumes approximately 300 litres of water a day.
leftists dont like to admit they’re not immune to propaganda
Obviously not awesome but easy to explain. I assume that being Palestinian gives them a certain - very one sided perspective on the conflict because they probably perceive Israel as an evil colonialist terror State that has been oppressing and killing them for decades.
Try being gay or trans in Gaza. And see how awesome cool 😎 the Palestinians are.
Mass genocide is OK as long as they’re homophobic.
Because oppressing a people makes them more progressive and not less.
We gay people must provide the palestinians with clean drinking water, and this will change hearts and minds 🏳️⚧️🙆♀️
No it won’t. You’ll be stoned for being gay just the same.
I love getting stoned legalize gay weed baby 💋
Not gonna lie, I’d be up for some gay weed right now
Fair warning: Gay weed makes one susceptible to singing Lady Gaga songs.
Gay weed, Lady Gaga, no more power in Gaza.
Try being a Palestinian in Gaza and see how awesome and cool Israel is. Being pro gay doesn’t change who’s the oppressor and who is oppressed.
I agree in general, but what an image choice for the Jewish people. Hassidics are far far less awesome and far far more right wing themselves.
Sadly this is the same for every religious minority group.
Most strictly conforming to rules -> most conservative -> most likely to be used in media or promotion because it’s most visible
The more visible a difference is, the more likely it is to be considered in a progressive society. Humans are pretty stupid when it comes to these things.
In my opinion this is an “everyone sucks here” situation and no one knows how to approach it as a result.
Maybe stop killing each other and take it from there? No? More rockets and human rights abuse? Yeah that’ll work…
Israel could start by ending apartheid and allowing the Palestinian people a modicum of dignity and representation in government, or let them have their own state.
I would agree in principle, but there are a few issues that need to be resolved:
- What would be the borders of the new Palestinian state? Both sides feel that they have a legitimate claim to the complete combined territory and neither is too eager to compromise.
- The Israelis say that if they lift their blockade of Palestine, the Palestinians will import weapons and start a new war. It does not help that the Gaza strip is currently being governed by Hamas, a group designated as terrorists by many countries (including the US and Jordan). They claim that the extermination of all Jews is the will of Allah. Not really a group you can negotiate with.
- Both governments are using the tenuous peace to stay in power. They have no desire to solve the issue.
Stop obfuscating while the United States keeps giving Israel billions to maintain apartheid and continue the genocide against the Palestinian people
It’s not that simple. A lot of technology comes from Israel, including the origins of the Intel core iX design and a lot of medical ai and metsec technology. we benefit from the status quoe probably more than Israel does.
As a person in one of those industries you mentioned, there is nothing special about what they do, that cannot be done elsewhere (and with higher quality.)
1947 UN Partition looks the best
Wasn’t there another one or is that the original one.
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And failing that, the appropriate reaction from Hamas is to fire missiles at Israeli civlians? Fuck off.
Well given that Gaza is a defacto prison, they could also beg and pray, like they did for the last 40 years without effect. When you are faced with an opressive regime, there is only giving up or fighting. And it is not exactly like Hamas can build rockets with GPS or other sophisticated aiming systems like Israel or NATO can.
like they did for the last 40 years without effect.
Have you seen even a single damn wiki article about this place, let alone read a book?
yes i did. And in none of them just begging in praying helped their situation.
If the Palestinians lay down their arms the war is over. If the Israelis lay down their arms they’d get genocided. Hamas explicitly calls for death to the Jews and they have deliberately targeted civilian populations time and time again. Hamas doesn’t want a negotiated solution to the conflict, they want a Final Solution to the Jewish Question. There is one side here that can just stop the violence, and it’s not Israel.
If Palestinians lay down their weapons they are still driven off their land, getting murdered by fundamentalist settlers, killed by IDF and imprisoned in Gaza and the West bank.
Also many Israeli politicians are very outspoken about wanting to commit Genocide, denying Palestinians being humans and denying them being a people.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/mar/01/israelandthepalestinians1
https://www.dailysabah.com/world/mid-east/israeli-lawmakers-kill-all-palestinians-remarks-resurface
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/01/middleeast/west-bank-smotrich-ned-price-intl/index.html
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/no-such-thing-as-palestinian-people-top-israeli-minister-says
Yes, they can.
That’s generally what happens when you treat people less than human long enough; they fight back.
Fight back by murdering and raping civilians? Do not forget Hamas does have a majority support according to most sources.
Israel definitely has issues with Palestinian human rights violations but there’s a difference between throwing a family out of a house and razing it or shooting a kid that’s trying to storm a military outpost and dragging innocent civilians from a peace concert and raping and murdering them.
Just look at what Hamas, again - an organization with majority support that does not keep any secrets around wanting to murder Jewish people, is doing and you might understand why Israel has been handling the entire situation with an iron fist. Now that iron fist will fall down and it will be innocent Palestinians suffering for Hamas’ crimes.
Hamas doesn’t represent all Palestinians. Fuck off.
They literally are the representative government of the region that started the attack and is getting attacked. They literally represent the Gaza Strip.
Hamas is about as “representative” of the population of Gaza as Kim Jong Un is of the North Korean people.
Both countries not even remotely resemble a political environment where free and fair elections are possible. Heck Hamas has killed way more Palestinians than Israelis and that includes their recent “success”. They are a dictatorship which uses indoctrination, intimidation and murder to stay in power.
So why are we defending Hamas here? If life under them is really so fucking shit why aren’t the Palestinians working with the Israelis to take them out?
I’m not defending them. Or do you seriously think me calling them a freaking dictatorship is a positive view of them? Since apparently a lot of people don’t understand it, I’m just explaining how it is. You asking “why don’t they just get rid of Hamas” is a perfect example. Because they are an authoritarian regime which has absolute no problem of killing everyone who speaks out against them. And then of course there is the indoctrination part which I also noted. That’s the same stupid question like “Why don’t Russians demonstrate against the war?” when those who do end in prison.
People acting like Hamas is a perfectly legitimate elected party is just so bloody stupid. The fact that the last “election” was 16 years ago should be more than enough for everyone to grasp as deeply undemocratic. And then of course they fail in pretty much every other aspect of what countries usually provide in an democratic country such as freedom of speech and freedom of the press. They also definitely don’t have a proper separation of power. They do provide some assistance to their population to keep them on their side, but that’s basically the same shit the Mafia did and they certainly aren’t representative of the areas they control.
Yes that is exactly what you should do to a population which is illegally occupying you.
Like the USSR occupied and incorporated a bunch of surrounding countries?
That would have meant Israel would stop fucking with Palestinian civilians before these rockets were fired.
While I get the “both sides” argument, Israel is absolutely the aggressor here and should be put a fucking leash like NK.
Israel the aggressor on average by a long shot, but not this time.
but not this time
Hamas started this one with a coordinated attack on 5000(?) locations.
Yeah, it’s gotten to a point where the divide is so deep and so old and there has been so much slaughter on each side that nobody is ever going to feel like “things are fair now.“ Both groups have committed atrocities, both groups have been victims of atrocities, and it’s just become a vendetta at this point with endless retaliation.
I don’t know what the answer is to be honest.
I’d love to watch the chaos unfold if they were made sure the civilians were safe. Azerbaijan achieved that, I don’t know why Israel and Palestine can’t.
Hamas doesn’t want to give up using their own people as human shields (not to mention the hostages they now have) and putting military facilities in immediate proximity to mosques and hospitals, because they enjoy a propaganda advantage when the mosques and hospitals are collateral damage. The Gaza Strip could have had it’s own power and water plants decades ago if the political leadership used the Israeli and international aid for building such facilities instead of pocketing it.
I’ve always been a fan of just making the middle east one giant country, and divide it into thousands of districts, which get representation in the central area( which can definitely not be anywhere important.) This would require Israel and many countries to come together and prefer diplomacy to slaughter though, so it will never happen.
Islamists want to be ruled under Islamic regime as depicted in Quran. In fact, all Muslim countries in the middle east abide by this. Unfortunately, they’re also fully dead set on this.
As an added bonus, Jews are literally “race that was despised by Allah (translating from Turkish here, might not be correct)” so there’s absolutely zero chance anything diplomatic could happen. Even if Israel decides to give everything up.
The potential solution would be Turkiye managing this situation but that’s even more outlandish.
I think you overestimate how many Palestinians believe this. I’m my family in gaza, we had Jewish friends. My father was best friends with a jew for many years. So many of us just want to live in peace, alongside people who do not want to kill us. Yes, there are a few zealots who believe this, and many leaders base their power directly on their bloodlust for Israel. Most of them hate Israel and their actions more than thier religion. I know Israel is much the same to us. If everyone who truly believes this died in one night, there would be no mourning for them, and a great cry of peace and relief would reach to the heavens, saying " let God sort out religions when we die, and not people sort out when we die by religion ".
Interesting. I’m Turkish, had Palestinian and Jordanian(?) friends along with Turkish friends alongside buddies who served in healthcare for both sides. Just about everyone who were religious in those groups had a burning hatred for Israel specifically. To a point where they get happy whenever things happen to religious people. We’re not just talking about some zealots here, we’re talking about more than half the people I know.
This is why I assumed it’s quite literally impossible. Interesting that it actually might be!
I know I have celebrated when Israel suffers a defeat, but not the death of regular Jews, or Israeli civilians.
All I know is that the Islamic Brotherhood students I met at Tel Aviv University very clearly wanted to kill me. I was warned off showing any interest in a non-observant muslim fellow student that was sweet on me because the very same group of Brotherhood guys beat the last person who she was sweet and left him for dead. The older Israeli Arab muslims I met that were shop owners, etc. were much more chill. And Arab Israeli Christians (think more ethnicity than religion) were very split - they didn’t like what was happening with Arab muslims, but they also had ZERO interest in being part of a Palestinian state. They knew very well where they would be treated better, much like the Druize.
I cannot speak for them, but it is very different to not want a foreigner who is not from your religion to date a Muslim, than it is to want to kill all Jews. Of course, it is very bad to take it to the level of a beating, or to make that choice for someone else, and what they did is bad. What I often see is a few zelots in a groups of people who don’t care for Jews, but don’t want to kill them. It is very difficult to stand for a stranger who is outside your culture, and defend them, without being labeled as an enemy of your own culture. My father was clear to us that Jews were not evil because they are Jews, just as Muslims are not all good because of their religion. He was friends with a small family of Jews living in Gaza near us. I do not think he would want me to date them, but he was happy that we could be friends.
As an added bonus, Jews are literally “race that was despised by Allah (translating from Turkish here, might not be correct)” so there’s absolutely zero chance anything diplomatic could happen. Even if Israel decides to give everything up.
Actually Jewish-Muslim relationship before the foundation of Israel was pretty good. Including Muslims helping Jews in WW2 to escape the Nazis. There were also some good examples in the early 20th century of Palestinians and Jewish people living together.
Unfortunately when the Zionist started their project, these communities were the first they targeted with terrorism. The same militias who committed these attacks later became the core of the first Israeli army.
Another decisive factor against coexistence was once Jewish immigration en masse started, Palestinians stopped being employed as Jewish employers started hiring Jewish immigrants. Several Pan Arab intellectuals thought there could be peaceful coexistence before this point.
Except, you know, Israel literally created Hamas to put to bed any risk of Palestine uniting under an effective, secular government.
This is 9/11 for Israel in more ways than one.
One day we will learn stop arming and funding religious extremists I’m sure.
Yeah, except war is good for economy / capitalism, so they won’t stop funding / arming. That’s probably the real enemy, if they had all been suffocated of weapons and fighting resources, war probably would have been over long ago.
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In my opinion this is an “everyone sucks here” situation and no one knows how to approach it as a result.
Not to mention that for the hardliners who are in charge of the whole situation on both sides are benefiting from an everlasting conflict to stay in power! What do they care if innocent people (theirs or the “enemies”) are dying?
Calling the Israel govt “genocidal” is not fair or accurate. Israel has had military superiority over Gaza every day since it was captured in 1967. If they were genocidal, they could’ve slaughtered all the people in Gaza at any time. Instead, the population of Gaza has doubled since 1967. If you want to know what a real genocidal regime looks like, imagine the situation were reversed and Hamas had overwhelming military superiority over Israel. Imagine Hamas had tanks, F-16s, F-35s, and Apache helicopters. What would happen? The genocide would start immediately. Hamas would be slaughtering civilians en masse. No restraint. No negotiations. True Genocide.
Before you ask, I’m not Jewish and I’m not defending Israeli atrocities. I just think this is an extremely simplistic and unfair characterization of Israel.
Genocide isn’t about just slaughtering people, it is also about removing and displacing a people from a region, something which Israel policy definitely and inarguably has systematically been.
Are you fucking seriously going to try and split hairs over definitions (which you’re incorrect btw, genocide’s literal definition is the killing of a large group of people in an ethnicity with the goal of destroying that nation or group) so you can level the playing field of evil here??
The prior comment remarked that Israel could have slaughtered everyone in Gaza but didn’t, and now you’re trying to redefine genocide so that Israel looks worse.
Mental gymnastics aside, Hamas was fucking insane to go after children. Israel is fucking insane to go after Hamas with the human shields they have.
No amount of hand wringing externally is going to defuse this. Hubris is going to make this worse though, that I do believe.
This thread was about whether or not it’s “fair or accurate” to call them “genocidal”. The word, “literally” taken down to its roots, does mean “geno” (people) “cide” (killing), but actual definitions in use are more nuanced. From the UN “Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide”, for instance:
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
The international definition of genocide isn’t what you claim
Genocide is slaughtering people, there is no other meaning. You can call removing and displacing people something else, which doesn’t change how bad they are.
The language lacks a nuance in between “intentional mass slaughter” and “systematic eradication and displacement of ethnic group.”
Both are classed as genocide by international conventions, even if in our heads they seem very different.
I think that’s why often genocide is used for the former and ethnic cleansing for the latter, which makes some form of sense since, as you said, there appears to be a difference.
I’m not trying to lessen the evil of what either is because I don’t believe in ‘which is more evil’ contests, just that, for categorization purposes, maybe that is needed.
If a bunch of refugees flee roaming Jewish folk running around trying to murder them (like Muslims fled India and Hindus fled Pakistan during Partition as folks of each religion roamed around trying to murder people of the minority faith) in 1948 and refugees flee the 1967 war, fearing for their safety, and then they’re not allowed to return to their homes, that’s ethnic cleansing. If you’re constantly being pushed off your land and your home in order to be replaced by settlers of another faith, that’s also ethnic cleansing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight
P.S. Fuck the British (of that time) and their fucking imperialism.
And fuck the Hindus and Muslims and Jews who participated in the ethnic cleansing.
UN convention on Genocide: “Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people[a] in whole or in part.” I think it’s reasonable to argue that applies to Istael’s treatment of Palestine.
Gee do you think the population may have doubled partially because of all the ethnic cleansing that the Israeli gov (or settlers with the gov’s implicit support) have done in places those people used to live?
No, those people simply had kids.
You haven’t heard of the illegal Israeli settlements? You haven’t heard about the forced removal of Palestinian homes?
Religions suck. They’re the root of all problems.
Interesting take after about a century of World Wars, Cold War and other global conflicts that where mostly not about religion at all.
Conflating Zionism and Judaism is anti-Semitism. Jewish people are overwhelmingly against the settler colonialist apartheid regime of Israel.
Judaism has two meanings - religious and ethnic. (Nearly) all religious Jews belong to the Jewish ethnicity, but not all ethnic Jews are religious. In Israel, the best indicator if someone supports the occupation in the Palestinian territories is religion. What you call Zionism (“the settler colonialist apartheid”) is mainly a religious movement. That’s not to say religious Jews = bad. But a huge part of the problem is religious.
In fact, Jews are the least religious ethnic group worldwide. Something like 70% are atheist or agnostic iirc
Not really like I have seen religion actually work in making a society kind and in many places religion is the culture so without it those cultures would simply dissolve honestly I say religion is kinda like guns it can be used for good things and they both can be corrupted by bad people and used for bad things at the end of the day there are some shit people out there that want nothing but power and they see religions as a way to control people
Religion is stupid and causes way to many issues. And religion has always been a way to control people it’s literally why it was invented.
By that logic you can say government is stupid and only exist to control folks and what about culture is that also stupid
Government is a form of religion.
I don’t think so. The religions are an easy way to legitimate wars but they are not the first reason for them. (And look at Buddhism. They found a way to a healthy lifestyle. ~Fake News. I didn’t know what happend in Myanmar and Burma for example.)
And look at Buddhism. They found a way to a healthy lifestyle.
Unfortunately even Buddhist aren’t perfect. Just look what’s going on in Burma/Myanmar.
But regardless it’s correct that Religion often is used as a tool for parties to gain and exercise political power.
it’s a good way to create division. especially between two people who have more socio economically in common then they do with the ruling elites.
Yeah, i should have left that part out. Sorry.
No worries, it’s a something I think a lot of people don’t know so it’s good to talk about.
In this case it literally is the cause. Israel was founded on this land because of the religious ties to this exact place.
Ok, I didn’t know that.
That’s okay. I thought the same thing before. That Buddhism was the least of the worst because of their anti violence stance. But it turns out religion is religion.
That’s a spicy take. I’m curious to see how that works out for you.
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Am I the only one suspicious about the timing of this attack? Right on the time Netanyahu is under extreme pressure at home a major war comes out of his ass.
Can’t help but notice everybody loses with this war, except him. He’s the only one that takes advantage of this situation. Not Israel, not Hamas and sure as hell not the Palestinians.
There’s a stench here. Something is not right.
Is this really a win for Netanyahu though? His intelligence branch really fucked up big time. Real winner is probably any far-right groups looking for an opportunity to spout even more nationalistic bullshit, causing even more violence.
I thought Netanyahu and Likud are the far right?
His intelligence branch really fucked up big time
I agree. Almost like it was on purpose.
Though his tough guy appearance suffered a setback all he has to do is make the enemy seem greater than he is. “I did the best I could but these Palestinians are treacherous animals, I was too lenient. No more mr. Nice guy”.
Result, he has an excuse to go all-in against Palestine and all he has to do his bomb them back into the stone age (which he has the means to). He’ll look even tougher and the cherry on top of the cake is he’ll use this “war” to silence any and all opposition.
This is too much of a god send to Netanyahu to have been on accident.
This is too much of a god send to Netanyahu to have been on accident.
The idea that someone benefiting from a catastrophe means they must be involved in it is insane. After 9/11, sales of “Only Time” by Enya went way up. The whole country was in a panic and wanted to listen to soothing music. Since Enya benefited from 9/11, by your logic, she must’ve been involved.
you: There’s a stench here. Something is not right.
also you: This is too much of a god send to Enya to have been on accident.
I think it’s funny how people went from “something doesn’t feel right” to “Netanyahu was the mastermind” in less than a second.
Hamas did this of their own volition, I’m not questioning. I’m questioning though, how vulnerable Israel was to this attack and how Mossad never saw this coming.
Your attempts at distancing yourself from your own argument by claiming that you were “just asking questions” does come off a quite disingenous.
I’m sorry if you misinterpreted me. It would help if you read my argument without immediately making assumptions and jumping to your own conclusions.
I wrote exactly what I meant.
People question the timing of the attack and hint at larger conspiracies EVERY TIME there’s a terrorist attack. They did it on 9/11. They did it on 7/11. They will always do this and it will always be stupid.
I dislike Netanyahu, but it is simply insane to think Netanyahu coordinated an attack of this scale with his good buddies Hamas. Please seek help.
it is simply insane to think Netanyahu coordinated an attack of this scale with his good buddies Hamas
Yes it is. And you’re the one who came up with that. I never said anything of the like.
To be fair, Netanyahu is always under extreme pressure at home. He’s a terrible statist and a horrible person.
Yes, they have been pressured to do this. IDF and random settlement Jews have literally been harassing Muslims praying in Jerusalem. They have been seen pushing women while praying and stepping on people at least 5 days straight.
Israel and Syria were about to sign a peace treaty.
I think you mean Israel and Saudi Arabia.
I rolled my eyes as soon as I saw the headline.
The one other winner is Iran, but ya, I did find it really strangely timed.
Maybe the plan was to keep on poking and hope for a reaction and then lunch a police action to show strength, and repeat. This is the playbook of Netanyahu after all no?
So it makes sense he would know how to best react to this.
Also on the 50 year anniversary of another attack that happened on a Jewish holiday.
I hate to say this, but sukkot is a tactically advantageous time to attack. It’s celebrated by sleeping under temporary booths with sparse natural cover. If you want to attack, waiting until the people you want to attack are no longer protected by a roof makes sense.
Roofs only marginally help with the rockets. The bunkers in the buildings are where people go when the sirens go off. Shouldn’t be much harder to get to them from your back yard / porch.
A lot of people are away from home though
And’s he’s not above killing Israelis to get his way. Just ask Sharon or Perez.
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Uhhh did you not see they’re already talking about forming a new unity government and ousting him after stabilizing the security situation? That’s hardly a win for the president running on the phrase “I’m the only one strong enough to protect you!” Something similar happened after the yom Kippur attacks 50 years ago where the current president was basically squeezed out of the government once the situation wasn’t so dire.
I hope you’re right. But I’m afraid he’ll know how to play hos cards. If he does, he’ll be untouchable and democracy in Israel is doomed. And the Palestinians too, that goes without saying.
Lemmy’s flooded with anti-palestinian-occupation propaganda today.
Please keep it up.
Don’t forget the forced evictions, but this is worse don’t get me wrong
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Love these over simplified, deep fried karma farms. I’m so cool let me vote up or down.
I will updoot your comment so I don’t have to choose a side.
Wow, the anti-Israel propaganda machine snaps into action before the Israeli civilian deaths are even counted. This is just shameful.
Anti-Israel. Lol, cute.
Yeah sure… it is not like Israel is operating dedicated social media propaganda… Oh wait they do and love to turn the narrative into themselves being the victims of unfair persecution and claiming any critique to be antisemitism.
Did you mean to link two stories that detail how Israel debunks fabricated anti-Israel propaganda?
Because you just linked two stories that detail how Israel debunks fabricated anti-Israel propaganda.
[Israel] won’t leave negative stories out there online without a response, and we will spread positive messages. …We are putting public diplomacy in the hands of the public. (Linked from your first source)
Around 180 students [are] looking out for false anti-Israel coverage and explaining facts (from the Second Source that you linked)
I guess take my upvote for your support of honest reporting on anti-Israel propaganda.
Are you really that naive?
The propaganda entities are of course saying that they are just “debunking” and reactes to “false coverage”. Their job is to spread propaganda, not to do fact checking.
If you struggle seeing this just reread and replace Israel with China:
China won’t leave negative stories out there online without a response, and we will spread positive messages. …We are putting public diplomacy in the hands of the public.
Around 180 students [are] looking out for false anti-China coverage and explaining facts
Would you really believe this to be the real objective and not to just spread propaganda and drown out criticism? If it was just for facts they wouldn’t need that, as there is enough of neutral or slightly positive towards Israel media outlets all around the world that provide reasonable coverage of Israel. But when you bomb hospitals and schools there is only so much factual positive coverage possible.
Please. The latter article shows multiple examples, all easily verifiable. But some people are just not interested in facts, just their own belief in the “
JewishIsraeli conspiracy”
Good. I hope the entire illegitimate regime dies.
I’ve been awake too long, but isn’t murdering infidels and blowing up thousands of years of culture so you can seize a land promised to you by an invisible omnipotent being that only important powerful people can talk to kind of like the Crusades?
I could be wrong. I’m an illiterate pagan. I find religious expression hugging trees and doing a number of other activities in the nude.
I want to join your religion. Tell me who to smite and they will be smitten
Smote
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It’s a religion of love and kindness.
It’s a Homer Simpson line
smought
Tbh, the concept doesn’t require a specific religion or even any religion at all to work.
Christians can do that, so can Jews, Muslims, Hindi or any other religion. Or Marxists or Capitalists, Nazis or Brits, Americans or Russians.
In general, large organisations (countries, companies, religions, …) that want to gain money/power through violence usually pick a random ideology or motive to do so, because it helps to justify the act and thus motivates soldiers/fighters and potential recruits.
But the justification is never the actual reason. The reason is to increase money and power.
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You are also not wrong. It’s a damn shame when anybody has to be relocated against their will. I wish I had answers, I just wish we would stop throwing larger and larger rocks at each other.
I wish all Jewish people of the world a happy and safe day of rest for Shemini Atzeret; peace and safety for anyone living in the Gaza region.
what about people forcefully removing people from their homes and illegally settling in their place?
what are your wishes for these people?
I think they clearly said peace and safety.
so just peace and safety to anyone. including those stealing land from others.
Would you also wish peace and safety the Russian forces in Ukraine?
If you wish peace upon someone who is being violent that generally means you want them to stop
you wish people peace at Christmas. would you wish peace on someone punching you in the face?
I wish peace in both the people in the concentration camp and the guards.
What should they wish for, mass slaughter?
who would wish for that?
I have no idea. What should people wish for if not peace or slaughter?
not to be kicked off their land?
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This part of the image has me dying. The cutesy simplistic art style would fit in a kindergarten class but it’s about war crimes lmao.
“Sorry Sophie, January is spelt with a J for jam, not G for genocide.”
