First of all I really wouldn’t put much weight on the voting results in an area where Hamas uses violence for decades to keep in power. Especially if there isn’t any semblance of a modern democratic state such as regular(!!) elections, freedom of speech and a free press. A 1-2 generation long youth indoctrination like the Nazis did also really doesn’t create an educated and politically mature population.
And of course 53% still leaves a huge amount of people who aren’t in favour. Not to mention that there is a 70+ year long ongoing conflict which has left pretty much no one in Gaza (or Israel for that matter) who doesn’t know someone getting hurt or killed by the opposing side’s actions. It’s hardly surprising that there’s hard feeling (major understatement) in a lot of people.
And lastly we certainly wouldn’t want to use public opinion as justification for killing civilians. That’s the reasoning the likes of Osama bin Laden do to justify shit like 9/11.
TL;DR: This conflict is complicated as hell and basically a self fueling cycle of hatred where even the good side is acting very shitty a lot of times.
This conflict is anything but simple. Nearly a century of bloody violence by both sides seldom makes for a clear good vs evil conflict. The fact that Hamas still is the worse autocratic despotic ruler when compared to the hardliner wanna be authoritarians of Netanyahu’s party proves that. Fighting back against oppression doesn’t absolve you from the human duty of compassion and when you indiscriminately kill civilians your fight isn’t justice anymore but just another crime against humanity!
Maybe back when the Zionist militants/terrorist first started to wage their war to get their own country one could have pointed at one side as the good one. But since then both sides have committed countless atrocities. The only thing for sure is that neither kids deserve to grow up in such an environment and to be raised to continue the fight for another generation.
I know, right? Don’t they know reality is a zero sum game?
Horrific acts done against a group of people cancel out the horrific acts they do. As long as the other side is “worse” you can torture, murder, and rape all you want – it’s totally justified.Especially if you indiscriminately target defensless civilian populations for your “revenge”.
You are morally obliged to shoot and kill people who are invading your country. The fact that includes civilians is not the fault of Hamas. Just a thought: if you don’t want to get killed in a war maybe don’t kick out the inhabitants to move into an active war zone??
And yes, it’s an active war zone. Even the EU calls them what they are: an illegal occupation. You are passively supporting ethnic genocide.
Should US border guards shoot women and children trying to illegally cross in from Mexico?
Those civilians who are now being killed live mostly on the border of Gaza - these aren’t settlers, they don’t live in occupied territory.
Many others who were killed and kidnapped were kids at a rave near the border. Were the terrorists morally obliged to shoot them? Were they morally obliged to strip the women and beat them and post the videos online? Was the German tourist they did this to yesterday an invader?
Can you only think in terms of groups? Believe it or not, I did not join lemm.ee because of my politics or whatever, I just like the name.
Interesting that your first response to an opinion you don’t agree with is a call for defederation. Ignoring the opinions and ideas of people you disagree with puts you in an echo chamber.
Ukrainians have killed civilians but I don’t think they generally target civilians in the way Hamas does. We should absolutely be arming palestinian moderates to prevent incursions and settlements like we are in Ukraine, though.
Yes soooooo peaceful to elect a government who’s founding charter calls for the killing of every single Jew in Israel and out of it. Oh my God I can’t get over how peaceful it is. Those poor Palestinians not being able to genocide Israel goly gee willikers.
I didn’t realize “doing nothing but brutalizing Palestinians” includes providing power and water to the gaza strip because the Palestinian leadership was too corrupt build power and water treatment plants with the numerous millions of dollars of international and Israeli aid earmarked for that purpose.
My dude, Palestine has been attacked by terrorists and forced to split its country in two. It’s irellevant if the terrorists then went “here, have some money you poor fucks”. They still stole the land and homes of the people living there. They still are responsible for a mass exodus, and the destruction of a nation. They still killed millions to keep that land theirs.
Don’t get it twisted. Their humanitarian efforts are not because they’re good people. They’re just so they can keep feigning legitimacy and moral superiority.
But it seems the ship has sailed and everyone’s collective mind doesn’t go back before the 1990s, so I guess fuck Palestine, what a mean thing to do, how dare you bomb the terrorists that reside in your homes civilians.
They didn’t kill millions, my dude, in any point in time. And Palestinian nationalism literally developed as a response to Zionism. Pan Arabism was very much the order of the day until the 48 war. Do you not understand how the fellahin had their land sold out from under them by the landed Arab gentry living in Beirut? There’s plenty of blame to go around, but feel free to pretend that the Jews are the only reason the Palestinians are in the position they are today.
Yes, exactly. It’s worth noting though, that many good people are brought into these regimes, and are folded into the hate by their leaders, and the hate they receive from the extremists that oppose them.
Not only do terrorists and gangs harm those they seek to harm, but they also grow and root their evil into the normal and healthy communities they base themselves in. Both Hamas and Israel are poisoning their own people more than those they directly kill.
Yes, but also that hating a government (or even just decisions of a government) doesn’t extend to hating people across the globe who identify with the same religion that government is using to oppress people.
I think that’s a question that every Jewish person would have a different answer to.
For me, I’m an Atheist Jew; but religion is more than blind faith, it contains culture, values, and yes peoplehood. I like being part of a small and tight community, sharing ethical discussions and rituals with those in it.
Like most similar questions, yours comes down to semantics. How do you define religion? A people? My concern with questions like that is it can be interpreted by some maliciously. E.g. They’re not a religion like us, they’re a race and we must exterminate them.
If I have one message to give to the secular American people, it’s that the world is not divided into countries. The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don’t know each other, but we talk together and we understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same. - Marjane Satrapi
If only people could understand the basic concept that hating a government is possible without hating the people living there.
Exactly. Hamas is a monstrous organization based on the most corrupted religious fundamentalism, but I have nothing but love for the people of Gaza.
Reminder that Hamas is widely supported by most Palestinians
https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87
First of all I really wouldn’t put much weight on the voting results in an area where Hamas uses violence for decades to keep in power. Especially if there isn’t any semblance of a modern democratic state such as regular(!!) elections, freedom of speech and a free press. A 1-2 generation long youth indoctrination like the Nazis did also really doesn’t create an educated and politically mature population.
And of course 53% still leaves a huge amount of people who aren’t in favour. Not to mention that there is a 70+ year long ongoing conflict which has left pretty much no one in Gaza (or Israel for that matter) who doesn’t know someone getting hurt or killed by the opposing side’s actions. It’s hardly surprising that there’s hard feeling (major understatement) in a lot of people.
And lastly we certainly wouldn’t want to use public opinion as justification for killing civilians. That’s the reasoning the likes of Osama bin Laden do to justify shit like 9/11.
TL;DR: This conflict is complicated as hell and basically a self fueling cycle of hatred where even the good side is acting very shitty a lot of times.
maybe it’s not complicated. All groups who fight oppressors have been labelled as violent extremists. so perhaps it’s actually quite simple.
This conflict is anything but simple. Nearly a century of bloody violence by both sides seldom makes for a clear good vs evil conflict. The fact that Hamas still is the worse autocratic despotic ruler when compared to the hardliner wanna be authoritarians of Netanyahu’s party proves that. Fighting back against oppression doesn’t absolve you from the human duty of compassion and when you indiscriminately kill civilians your fight isn’t justice anymore but just another crime against humanity!
Maybe back when the Zionist militants/terrorist first started to wage their war to get their own country one could have pointed at one side as the good one. But since then both sides have committed countless atrocities. The only thing for sure is that neither kids deserve to grow up in such an environment and to be raised to continue the fight for another generation.
Seems like the Palestinians want the right to return to their homes and communities and Israel just can’t find a way to give a damn.
whatever do you mean by “the good side”? there is no good side.
This.
Because they feel that trying to reason with Israel has zero effect.
Statistics without context are worse than lies.
I think he was referring to Israel?
The ol Lemmy switcheroo.
Hold my pita and hamas, I’m goin in!
I don’t think so. Hamas makes way more sense
I know, right? Don’t they know reality is a zero sum game?
Horrific acts done against a group of people cancel out the horrific acts they do. As long as the other side is “worse” you can torture, murder, and rape all you want – it’s totally justified. Especially if you indiscriminately target defensless civilian populations for your “revenge”.
You are morally obliged to shoot and kill people who are invading your country. The fact that includes civilians is not the fault of Hamas. Just a thought: if you don’t want to get killed in a war maybe don’t kick out the inhabitants to move into an active war zone??
And yes, it’s an active war zone. Even the EU calls them what they are: an illegal occupation. You are passively supporting ethnic genocide.
Should US border guards shoot women and children trying to illegally cross in from Mexico?
Those civilians who are now being killed live mostly on the border of Gaza - these aren’t settlers, they don’t live in occupied territory.
Many others who were killed and kidnapped were kids at a rave near the border. Were the terrorists morally obliged to shoot them? Were they morally obliged to strip the women and beat them and post the videos online? Was the German tourist they did this to yesterday an invader?
Israel has targeted health centers and large apartment blocks as reprisals. they threated to punish the whole population by switching off electricity.
why are they even in control of the electricity?
why are they allowing settlers to create illegal settlements?
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why is that Israel’s concern? Just divest from the area and let them get on with it.
It’s difficult of course with all the illegal Israeli settlements taking land from people and cutting up the already small area of land.
lemee speedrunning their defederation
Can you only think in terms of groups? Believe it or not, I did not join lemm.ee because of my politics or whatever, I just like the name.
Interesting that your first response to an opinion you don’t agree with is a call for defederation. Ignoring the opinions and ideas of people you disagree with puts you in an echo chamber.
not sure why you conflate women and children seeking asylum as invaders. that’s embarrassing.
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Ukrainians have killed civilians but I don’t think they generally target civilians in the way Hamas does. We should absolutely be arming palestinian moderates to prevent incursions and settlements like we are in Ukraine, though.
Israel does though
why can’t we all just live in my peace and tranquility.
Palestine has been trying peace for well over a decade. Israel doesn’t care. They like the violence and they benefit from the violence.
my comment was meant to be sarcastic. it’s easy for the oppressors to wonder why the oppressed won’t just roll over and take the boot.
Yes soooooo peaceful to elect a government who’s founding charter calls for the killing of every single Jew in Israel and out of it. Oh my God I can’t get over how peaceful it is. Those poor Palestinians not being able to genocide Israel goly gee willikers.
I didn’t realize “doing nothing but brutalizing Palestinians” includes providing power and water to the gaza strip because the Palestinian leadership was too corrupt build power and water treatment plants with the numerous millions of dollars of international and Israeli aid earmarked for that purpose.
My dude, Palestine has been attacked by terrorists and forced to split its country in two. It’s irellevant if the terrorists then went “here, have some money you poor fucks”. They still stole the land and homes of the people living there. They still are responsible for a mass exodus, and the destruction of a nation. They still killed millions to keep that land theirs.
Don’t get it twisted. Their humanitarian efforts are not because they’re good people. They’re just so they can keep feigning legitimacy and moral superiority.
But it seems the ship has sailed and everyone’s collective mind doesn’t go back before the 1990s, so I guess fuck Palestine, what a mean thing to do, how dare you bomb the
terrorists that reside in your homescivilians.They didn’t kill millions, my dude, in any point in time. And Palestinian nationalism literally developed as a response to Zionism. Pan Arabism was very much the order of the day until the 48 war. Do you not understand how the fellahin had their land sold out from under them by the landed Arab gentry living in Beirut? There’s plenty of blame to go around, but feel free to pretend that the Jews are the only reason the Palestinians are in the position they are today.
Yes, exactly. It’s worth noting though, that many good people are brought into these regimes, and are folded into the hate by their leaders, and the hate they receive from the extremists that oppose them. Not only do terrorists and gangs harm those they seek to harm, but they also grow and root their evil into the normal and healthy communities they base themselves in. Both Hamas and Israel are poisoning their own people more than those they directly kill.
Yes, but also that hating a government (or even just decisions of a government) doesn’t extend to hating people across the globe who identify with the same religion that government is using to oppress people.
(American Jew who hates what Israel is doing)
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I think that’s a question that every Jewish person would have a different answer to. For me, I’m an Atheist Jew; but religion is more than blind faith, it contains culture, values, and yes peoplehood. I like being part of a small and tight community, sharing ethical discussions and rituals with those in it.
Like most similar questions, yours comes down to semantics. How do you define religion? A people? My concern with questions like that is it can be interpreted by some maliciously. E.g. They’re not a religion like us, they’re a race and we must exterminate them.
One of my favorite quotes:
Different situation, same idea.
I mean, look at the United States
Russians understand. Belorusians too.
Original comment has 3 downvotes, mine 9. “It’s different” it seems.
Israel claims to be a democracy and also commits genocide.
Democracy and genocide are separate
Israel is by definition obviously not committing genocide, the Palestinians population is only going up