Summary
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. accused Bernie Sanders of taking millions from Big Pharma during a heated exchange, but Sanders refuted the claim, stating his donations came from workers, not corporate PACs.
Kennedy repeatedly insisted Sanders was the top recipient of pharmaceutical money in 2020, but financial data shows no corporate PAC contributions to Sanders.
Meanwhile, Kennedy has profited from anti-vaccine activism, earning millions from lawsuits and speaking fees.
The debate ended without Kennedy answering whether he would guarantee health care for all as HHS secretary.
I feel sorry that the Democratic party opted to cheat us out of President Sanders.
Contrary to the circles we reside in, most of the US despises any act of “socialism”. It’s ingrained in the culture after 50 years of waging a cold war against an entity that was associated with everything on the left because of propaganda. It will take a long time before enough of the people born before 1990 have died off before people will warm up to it again (I’m in this group too, being born 1982, but I wasn’t politically aware enough care at the time, but some other kids’ parents no doubt instilled this hate of socialism into them growing up. Millennials/Xennials, the generation that was supposedly the most left leaning in recent times, basically started 4chan, and look what it became).
We ARE in an echo chamber. I came to discover this when talking to young folks about Harris/Trump. Despite the enthusiasm I saw here for Harris, it did not translate to the real world at all. We have to come to grips with the fact that the majority of Americans suck.
There are plenty of Trump supporters that liked Bernie. If you aren’t hearing them, you’re part of the issue. People are sick of being told they suck.
I mean… gestures around it’s probably time we come to terms with it, no?
Nah dude, Bernie was WAY more popular than you’re giving him credit for. That’s revisionist history. He won multiple states in the primaries. That doesn’t happen for a Reddit echo chamber candidate. He even won important states like Michigan and Wisconsin.
He really did shake up the Democratic Party, which is why they panicked and did everything they could to push Bernie out. Both in 2016 and 2020.
Must be an interesting corner of Lemmy you found to have seen people who had enthusiasm for Kamala.
Most here we’re as enthused as a kid taking that old school bitter liquid antibiotic.
People are still carrying water for her.
Nah, people were pretty hyped for a while after Biden dropped out.
And then she made it clear that she wouldn’t differ from him except to move to his right.
Okay, maybe not outright enthusiasm. More like relief in the hope we weren’t getting Trump.
Most of the US hates the word socialism, but if you pitch an actual example through a lens of saving money or creating jobs or something, they fucking love it. Just don’t actually say the word and your golden.
I think about this every time I talk to my “liberal” family and they don’t even realize they’re spouting conservative bullshit.
“I worked hard for my house, I deserve to live in it alone until I die” while their son who didn’t ask for cancer or to not be able to afford his medications is on the verge of homelessness. I guess my hard work and being underpaid my whole life just doesn’t count compared to theirs? I guess the fact that our country mercilessly exploited the rest of the world, preventing them from living such comfortable lives, to be able to achieve such comfort for ourselves, means nothing? Those people in other countries worked hard too and lived in multigenerational housing for, well, generations. But they don’t deserve it somehow, they aren’t American, and we’re the best so we deserve it or some other fucking delusional shit I don’t fucking understand it.
They don’t get it and at this point I’m pretty sure they never fucking will because the poison of Individualism has gotten them and US citizens don’t understand Collectivism or the sacrifices you make for society at all.
All the Boomers are just like Biden. No matter being the source of all our problems, they won’t lift a finger to make a sacrifice at the end, because “they worked hard and they shouldn’t have to.” Sure, when all the queers are being lined up for the firing squad, I’m sure it will mean a lot to them that you just couldn’t lift a finger to prevent it because “you worked hard” and “you deserved a calm end of your life” as if these other people being rounded up to be murdered didn’t deserve that.
Biden could have done a fuckton for us on his way out, but not a single fucking person in charge is going to make a sacrifice for us. Not Biden, not Merchan, not anybody.
My immediate family is largely conservative voters, and they go on about what government should do, and it’s all decently lefty suggestions, but try to point that out to them and they go nuts. Most people just seem very ignorant of politics in general.
America’s mainstream opinions on “socialism” were not caused by America’s history of arms races, thermonuclear development, and proxy wars across the globe, nor do they persist because of it. Many Americans have experienced a rapid and shocking shift in opinion toward Russia - the great red enemy of the cold war. This is still happening despite Russia making no major political reforms in recent history, no significant revolution in government, and actively trying to reclaim soviet territories.
If this was possible within a single generation, it also should be possible for public perception to change on socialism. There is no need or purpose to wait for people to die - their ideas live on.
No, decades after the cold war ended, the cause of the hatred of socialism in this country persists for one simple reason: Americans have become convinced through a tremendous amount of propaganda that Government is bad.
Not just America’s government as an entity - we could all find some common ground there if it were that simple. No institution in particular, not the Administration, the federal or state legislatures, or the town halls, or the mayor of the small village who’s really just doing it as a part-time gig - no, all of these are but parts of the greater problem - Government itself is seen as bad.
Not the flashy boots on the throats of “radicals”, not the ICE agents storming the hospitals - that’s not governing, that’s just violence. No, what’s “bad” are the mundane, boring, tedious things the Government does because someone has to.
There is this wild knee-jerk reaction to governance itself that dates back to good ol’ Reaganism of course.
“The most terrifying words are… I’m from the federal government, and I’m here to help.” (Reagan, 1986, paraphrased)
Spoken by the man specifically in charge of the federal government.
America was supposed to have been founded for the people, by the people, and with the people in mind. But now the people believe not only that the government isn’t here for them - it can’t be.
They believe we shouldn’t try to make things better through governance because governing can’t be good. it’s always “inefficient”, it’s always “stealing your hard-earned money”. To them it’s million dollar pens in space, and spraying cat piss on drunk rats, and paying for hormones and birth control and school “litter boxes” - in short, to many Americans, any money the Government spends is by definition theft and waste, especially if it’s hard to understand.
Changing their minds on socialism involves first changing their minds on the government. Not the capital A capital G American Government, but the nature and purpose of governance itself.
But on the bright side, I believe our opportunities to change those minds are only growing from this moment. The hateful idealogies, the demagogues, the simple answers - they’re all a net negative on society. But the fact remains that the government is being challenged and ripped apart both internally and externally. Institutions are crumbling as we speak, traditions are being broken, and precedents are being set and shredded left and right.
People have the opportunity to realize that government itself is malleable, and that if it can be changed for the worse so quickly and horribly, then it can also be changed for the better. We have the chance to convince them that we as a society can take all of this power and use it for our personal and collective good, if only the right minds and the right ideas take root.
Also all the claims Bernie was cheated rely on a single guy whose math doesn’t entirely add up. Sanders likely lost for the same reason he did in 2020 which is as you say the opposition to socialism.
How did they do that?
Not only was the primary rigged, but it was established in court that both, it was rigged, and that the DNC are fine to rig their primaries.
https://observer.com/2017/08/court-admits-dnc-and-debbie-wasserman-schulz-rigged-primaries-against-sanders/
the term rigged is bullshit. What people have answered before is more accurate which I would describe as pushing other candidates to endorse and play ball and they would be rewarded. Your article uses the term rigged a lot but gives no explanation for the actions its considers to have rigged it.
We don’t know if it was rigged because that was never actually addressed in court.
The DNC came in and said:
Their argument in court was that, as a private organization, they have a right to do that, and since they have that right, the lawsuit should be dismissed. Their argument was that as a private group, they can rig it if they want to and it’s only their own rules that they are breaking so nobody can stop them. How can anyone take such an argument at face value? “We totally didn’t rig it, but if we did, it was totally legal to do.”
Have you heard that old saying?
This is the DNC pounding the law (“we’re a private organization, that’s not how this works”) to be able to avoid fact-finding discovery.
People always focus on “pound the table” but I think “pound the law” should also be considered. Because there’s a lot of bullshit ass law out there.
The DNC went well out of their way to avoid talking about the facts and to focus on the legal mechanisms protecting them from having to admit facts. They also flat out admitted that if they wanted to choose the candidate, they could, and nobody could stop them. It was literally their argument for why the lawsuit should be dismissed, that it was legal for them to choose the candidate without input from the party.
no because the accusation does not really fit what I would call rigged. which would be like changing votes or something. what they did was basically influence influencers.
Anything where an election is manipulated is “rigging” an election. You’re just splitting hairs.
https://www.giantbomb.com/a/uploads/scale_super/3/33013/2638039-election rigging.jpg
Notice that the image I just showed is named “election rigging.jpg”?
The Definition for “rig”:
rig: manage or conduct (something) fraudulently so as to produce a result or situation that is advantageous to a particular person.
Having literal media organizations promoting the idea that the Super Delegates were all in the bag for Clinton and emails that showed they actively tried to hamstring him all falls under “rigging.”
Are you suggesting a video game as a source for a definition of election rigging? Was there a better quality source you could use?
but influencing is not really manipulating or if you believe it is then any promotion or advertising becomes rigging. I think again the big thing here is fraudulently and what that means to folks. For me again its like changing votes, disenfranchisement, and jerry mandering would fit but getting one guy to be on your side publically over another with promises. Thats always gonna be a thing.
Rigged is the correct term, in spite of you lack of curiosity.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/07/23/487179496/leaked-democratic-party-emails-show-members-tried-to-undercut-sanders
No it is not. Rigged implies making it impossible for the result. Like changing votes or otherwise just messing with the system like that. What was done was basically cajoling influential people. The voters could have still voted bernie in by giving him the majority of votes. Heck even trumps win is more rigged because of voter disenfranchisment and jerrry mandoring which is directly mucking with the process. Encouraging heavy hitters or influential folks to be negative about him or positive about clinton while being bs just does not fit with rigged. man its just like both sides kind of thing. its like yeah in the broadest terms, yes but folks take it way down to be like literally exactly the same and its like. no. by no means. in the details there is a massive gulf between them. details being things like no surprise billing or funding renewables and such. pretty big deal items. calling it rigged is disingenuous.
Since you are trying to rewrite history, I’m at least going to post this here so people understand the context of why we say, with out mixed words or a lack of emphasis, that the DNC rigged the primary against bernie.
This wasn’t incompetence—it was outright election interference. The DNC didn’t just favor Clinton; they actively sabotaged Bernie Sanders while pretending to be fair. The leaks confirmed everything.
No sources for anything and up to this point your only quoted source explains the flaws in your claim.
Maybe hold back on commenting about this further.
im not rewriting history I just have a problem with the term. I voted for sanders in the primary and what the party did was dick moves and shit. The reason I have a problem with terminology is see so much of slipperly slope kind of thing. This especially with politicians are the same, dems/rep same, so might as well not vote or vote for rep. and its like. yeah same but really not. this thing with sanders. its not something that could really be changed much. The funding thing gets there and I can see making the argument with it. Also the data maybe but scheduling gets some weak sauce and the rest is even less. A big question is how do you fix this in the setup of the party? I can’t see anything outside of vote for better people so that party leadership which comes out of that are better. People can donate directly to bernie instead of the party and only answer poles for bernie if they want. Now I would like to see super delegates eliminated as that is just straight out (ironically) anti democratic. Don’t get me wrong as I do get frustrated and bernie really represents what I want. To many issues that just are not worth it to me and not enough emphasis on universal healthcare and regulation and taxing those of means.
NPR didn’t call it rigged. They quoted a tweet from Donald Trump calling about. Why are you spreading Trump lies?
Says the revisionist historian. What a crackup.
All right quote any revisionist history you like. Give me an example just for fun. Whether I ever did or didn’t. At least I’m not quoting a fascist to be divisive.
You offer only negative value in these discussions.
Don’t forget they were DKIM verified to be real and unaltered.
But Assange was turned into the villain in this story because he didn’t personally hack the Republicans and get dirt on them too, and because nobody did it for him, that’s all his fault somehow. I’m still not entirely convinced of the story that he somehow had similar access to similarly compromising material on the Republicans and just chose not to release it.
Yet somehow…
https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/13/media/trump-campaign-hack-news-media-report-iran-wikileaks/index.html
Huh. Hmm. Interesting. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, there’s a thing called “editorial discretion” something no one seemed to think Assange deserved. Let alone once again that I have never seen definitive proof that Wikileaks had documents on Trump in 2016 that they refused to release. We even had a massive internal leak of their chats and nothing about having Trump info that they were sitting on and not releasing.
Note: Assange is shown in the chat logs to be quite the sexist and to in particular have an overly glaring hate for Hillary Clinton. I’m not saying Assange is a good dude, I’m pretty sure he’s a sex pest, and he has the sexist attitude to support it. But in this instance, regarding the DNC emails, I think he was unfairly maligned.
To quote Orwell apocryphally: “The truth is the truth, even if it comes from a scoundrel.”
Assange is no hero here and clearly has/ had an agenda of his own. I think if anything it shows we shouldn’t rely on personalities or tribes of one for necessary acts of public good. Its a good thing that the DNC emails were leaked, and more importantly, found to be unaltered. Anything about Trump also should have just been fully released. Its a bad thing that didn’t happen. It would be better if Assange had no editorial hand in what did or didn’t get leaked, but thats not what happened.
Ooh fancy. Quoting Orwell and Trump now.
Try reading your own source as there is a whole explanation about why the case was dismissed that you need to read.
Oh, oh. It gets soooooo much better. Search the article for the word rigged. There’s one instance. Where they literally link to a trump tweet or truth calling it that. And I dunno about you. But if the only sources I can find to support my opinions are DT. I’m changing my opinion fast! 🤗
Those were the rules. Those have always been the rules. So you’re saying an organization has no right to have a say in its leadership?
It’s funny that they don’t actually have a proper response to this. All tropical ding dong can do is quote Trump. Pretty ironic don’t you think?
“ On August 25, 2017, Federal Judge William Zloch, dismissed the lawsuit after several months of litigation during which DNC attorneys argued that the DNC would be well within their rights to select their own candidate. “In evaluating Plaintiffs’ claims at this stage, the Court assumes their allegations are true—that the DNC and Wasserman Schultz held a palpable bias in favor Clinton and sought to propel her ahead of her Democratic opponent,” the court order dismissing the lawsuit stated. This assumption of a plaintiff’s allegation is the general legal standard in the motion to dismiss stage of any lawsuit. The allegations contained in the complaint must be taken as true unless they are merely conclusory allegations or are invalid on their face.
The order then explained why the lawsuit would be dismissed. “The Court must now decide whether Plaintiffs have suffered a concrete injury particularized to them, or one certainly impending, that is traceable to the DNC and its former chair’s conduct—the keys to entering federal court. The Court holds that they have not.” The Court added that it did not consider this within its jurisdiction. “Federal courts are courts of limited jurisdiction, possessing ‘only that power authorized by Constitution and statute.'”.”
Im not sure that means what you think
An opinion piece with a hyperbolic factually unsupported headline? TDD doesn’t care. They’re here for the misinformation. They literally posted another article to NPR claiming that NPR said that it was rigged. NPR didn’t say that. NPR quoted a tweet from Trump saying that. NPR didn’t. They’re literally quoting Trump let that sink in.🤔
Yes those were the rules the Democrats had used for the last 40 years. It wasn’t actually rigging. It wasn’t very democratic. But when you’re abiding by the rules that were set up. That’s not called rigging or cheating. them’s the rules. That’s why I voted for sanders. Because even though he didn’t win the grand prize he won concessions to change those rules and actually make it more democratic. Before those rules. We didn’t even get to vote publicly in the presidential primary.
It’s been rigged for 40 years to keep candidates like Bernie Sanders out and push shitty candidates forward. Controlling the rules is rigging it.
Before this the party simply picked a candidate at the convention. The public didn’t get to vote.
It wasn’t a very democratic primary process ironically. It was definitely far too weighed towards national leadership. But hardly rigged. It’s hyperbolic and unconstructive to even claim. The fact Obama won only illustrates that. Rules didn’t change between Obama and Sanders. Organizations are allowed to set their own rules within reason. And Sanders helped make them better.
And despite all that. So many people who claimed to support Sanders seem so focused on hindering him. Ask yourself why has Sanders not echoed your claims. Why hasn’t he been a party to any of the laughable failed suits supposedly filed in defense of him. Think critically. I’m no fan of the national Democratic party. I think the state parties should take leadership back. This doesn’t do that. All these false claims do is aid the fascists.
If you want to punish national Democrats. Don’t enable fascists with division. Build your local and state party to be independent of the national party. It’s what we all need to do. And that will make them listen.
“Cheat” is a wide-ranging term which is a little too cumbersome to use here, but there were absolutely some shenanigans at play.
The heavily abridged version (which is open to criticism for doing so) is that the democratic leadership had effectively selected Hilary Clinton before the party had even had the chance to select the candidate officially, and Bernie’s campaign had it’s legs done before it even had a chance to take off.
Would Bernie have won? Who knows, but he’s consistently a decent and open candidate.
They consistently presented these super delegates as a forgone conclusion.
Brilliant, thank you for the clarification. Eight years feels like a long time ago.
It’s still infuriating.
It’s completely inappropriate here. If I tell you the rules to the game. And you agree to play. As Sanders did. And we both abide by the rules. Then no one cheated.
Shenanigans? Barely. Wasserman Schultz lost her job over it. Minimally impacting the Sanders campaign for a few days at most.
The Democratic primary rules were ironically not very democratic. But no one violated them or cheated anyone. Sanders knew that that going in. And he still almost won. Not only that. He didn’t whine like a entitled child that he’d somehow been cheated. In a winner take all contest. He lost. But still won concessions. That’s why I voted for the man. He made the future primaries more democratic and open to people like himself.
The DNC colluded to push Clinton/Biden, giving Bernie’s challangers more publicity and promising other candidates positions if they drop out and endorse Clinton/Biden