Communities should not be overly moderated in order to enforce a specific narrative. Respectful disagreement should be allowed in a smaller proportion to the established narrative.

Humans are naturally inclined to believe a single narrative when they’re only presented with a single narrative. That’s the basis of how fiction works. You can’t tell someone a story if they’re questioning every paragraph. However, a well placed sentence questioning that narrative gives the reader the option to chose. They’re no longer in a story being told by one author, and they’re free to choose the narrative that makes sense to them, even if one narrative is being pushed much more heavily than the other.

Unfortunately, some malicious actors are hijacking this natural tendency to be invested in fiction, and they’re using it to create absurd, cult-like trends in non-fiction. They’re using this for various nefarious ends, to turn us against each other, to generate profit, and to affect politics both domestically and internationally.

In a fully anonymous social media platform, we can’t counter this fully. But we can prune some of the most egregious echo chambers.

We’re aware that this policy is going to be subjective. It won’t be popular in all instances. We’re going to allow some “flat earth” comments. We’re going to force some moderators to accept some “flat earth” comments. The point of this is that you should be able to counter those comments with words, and not need moderation/admin tools to do so. One sentence that doesn’t jive with the overall narrative should be easily countered or ignored.

It’s harder to just dismiss that comment if it’s interrupting your fictional story that’s pretending to be real. “The moon is upside down in Australia” does a whole lot more damage to the flat earth argument than “Nobody has crossed the ice wall” does to the truth. The purpose of allowing both of these is to help everyone get a little closer to reality and avoid incubating extreme cult-like behavior online.

A user should be able to (respectfully, infrequently) post/comment about a study showing marijuana is a gateway drug to !marijuana without moderation tools being used to censor that content.

Of course this isn’t about marijuana. There’s a small handful of self-selected moderators who are very transparently looking to push their particular narrative. And they don’t want to allow discussion. They want to function as propaganda and an incubator. Our goal is to allow a few pinholes of light into the Truman show they wish to create. When those users’ pinholes are systematically shut down, we as admins can directly fix the issue.

We don’t expect this policy to be perfect. Admins are not aware of everything that happens on our instances and don’t expect to be. This is a tool that allows us to trim the most extreme of our communities and guide them to something more reasonable. This policy is the board that we point to when we see something obscene on !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com so that we can actually do something about it without being too authoritarian ourselves. We want to enable our users to counter the absolute BS, and be able to step in when self-selected moderators silence those reasonable people.

Some communities will receive an immediate notice with a link to this new policy. The most egregious communities will comply, or their moderators will be removed from those communities.

Moderators, if someone is responding to many root comments in every thread, that’s not “in a smaller proportion” and you’re free to do what you like about that. If their “counter” narrative posts are making up half of the posts to your community, you’re free to address that. If they’re belligerent or rude, of course you know what to do. If they’re just saying something you don’t like, respectfully, and they’re not spamming it, use your words instead of your moderation abilities.

  • Serinus@lemmy.worldOPM
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    6
    ·
    edit-2
    48 minutes ago

    We’re not going to allow queer people to be attacked using the same old tropes. That’s not what this is about. The coincidence with Meta is unfortunate timing.

    This is generally about manipulating people through echo chambers. It’s about allowing users to counter misinformation, particularly from moderators.

    A lot of attacks like that are common and worth refuting once in awhile anyway. It can be valuable to show the response on occasion. Additionally, you don’t always have to have the last word. When they end with something ridiculous enough, I often just leave it. The point is to help the reader see the options, but you can’t make them drink. If they look at the water fountain, then the toilet, and then they choose the toilet, well maybe they’re not able to be helped.

    If they keep spamming, you have a legit reason to remove them.

    The communities where we take action should have a very clear pattern. I don’t expect this to be perfect, but we’re open to suggestions.

    • RedSeries (She/Her)
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      22
      ·
      9 hours ago

      Cool, totally looking forward to having to “debate” people that my identity isn’t mental illness. Sure am happy I get to dust off my refutation of that “occasionally”. You can say what you want, as long as you word it right. Just be inquisitive! I can see the “toilets” now: “Oh gee whiz mister, I sure do not understand why you think you’re a lady. I heard it was a mental illness. Can you explain it to me? I pwomise to respect you and leave my anecdotes out.”

      • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        9
        ·
        6 hours ago

        I am only speaking for myself and not other mods and if this gets me de-modded, so be it, but I would consider telling someone that being trans is a mental illness to be a violation of the “attacks on people or groups” section of the ToS. I will absolutely not stand for bigoted attacks in communities I moderate and I will stand by that until I am demodded.

      • jordanlund@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        3
        ·
        7 hours ago

        I generally approach comments like that in a different way… I’m not arguing with the person posting, they’re already a lost cause, all I can do is present logic and evidence for anyone else who stumbles across the thread in the future.

        There’s more at stake than just arguing with someone who is clearly wrong, it’s making sure posterity understands that they’re clearly wrong and we understand they’re clearly wrong.

        See:

        https://youtu.be/xuaHRN7UhRo#t=1m04s

        • RedSeries (She/Her)
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          ·
          1 hour ago

          It’s more that this change might allow that to stay or be non-reportable depending on the mod. It lends that form of content the air of legitimacy, even if refuted. They would likely cite this rule change if asked to stop. And it’s just exhausting to have to see that. Maybe, in an ideal implementation, this won’t cover that kind of lead and this form of harassment disguised as ignorance will still be removed. I’m just not that hopeful…

    • Nosavingthrow@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      20
      ·
      11 hours ago

      Fuck man, I may as well get back on reddit. If you’re open to suggestions, I suggest, perhaps, meditating on where the value of lemmy actually lies.

      • Sergio@slrpnk.net
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        4
        ·
        7 hours ago

        lemmy.world is a great instance for your first account. Part of the value of Lemmy is being able to move to another instance once you know your way around.

    • Admiral Patrick@dubvee.org
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      48
      ·
      edit-2
      13 hours ago

      Feel free to check my comment history in this community on prior announcements; you’ll see I’ve defended pretty much every site-wide action the LW Team has taken because I’ve seen the bigger picture, the merit to it, and/or understood where they were coming from.

      I cannot defend this one, though.

      If someone submits something counter to objective reality, mods should have every right to squash that as misinformation even if they’re not spamming it. Sure, we can’t make them drink an antidote, but we should not be stopped from preventing others from drinking the poison.

      A lot of attacks like that are common and worth refuting once in awhile anyway. It can be valuable to show the response on occasion.

      Are you referring to the example I used re: Meta and someone popping into an LGBT+ community to say that being gay is a mental illness? Because that just sounds like feeding the trolls to me. I definitely don’t want an echo chamber and welcome more varied opinions/positions, but my tolerance is zero when it comes to those operating in bad faith (a quick look at their submission history easily confirms/refutes that).

      I sincerely hope your team revises this or applies it more granularly where the problem actually exists because I feel like this is just creating a whole new set of problems.

      • imaqtpie@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        4
        ·
        edit-2
        10 hours ago

        counter to objective reality

        At the current moment, there is zero consensus among the human race as to what objective reality actually is. This is a fundamental problem for us as a species, and Lemmy should be a space where it’s possible to seek answers to this question.

        I think you may be overreacting to a policy that is, by definition, subjective and open to interpretation.

        • Admiral Patrick@dubvee.org
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          18
          ·
          edit-2
          9 hours ago

          At the current moment, there is zero consensus among the human race as to what objective reality actually is.

          Agreed, but why do you think that is? Could it be because for years other online platforms have allowed nonsense after nonsense to flourish, often boosted by the platform itself for engagement purposes?

          I respectfully disagree that I am over-reacting (in fact, I’m deliberately under reacting).

          Back to my example based off of Meta’s recent changes: Someone comes in saying gay people are just mentally all and should seek help: is that an attack on a group or “respectful dissent”? Going by the letter of this post, I really have no idea even though it’s clearly an attack on a group. I absolutely will not “debate” my existence to every troll with an internet connection - I simply will not. Even though I’m not a mod of a community (on LW) where that’s likely to happen, I do not want the mod’s hands tied in that regard.

          • imaqtpie@sh.itjust.works
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            4
            ·
            edit-2
            9 hours ago

            There hasn’t ever been a consensus historically, tbh. But there was a hope that the internet could bridge that divide by connecting people and spreading information. Instead, it seems to have made things even worse. I had hoped that the corporate control over the web was to blame for this, but I’m not so sure anymore. Perhaps all online interaction is destined to exacerbate our differences. But I’m willing to keep trying until it’s been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

            I think that your example could fall under the umbrella of hate speech, and thus removal would be entirely justifiable. Even if it doesn’t qualify as hate speech, moderators still have the discretion to remove it for a variety of other reasons. The mods’ hands aren’t being tied here, it’s just providing a counterpoint to the tendency of mods to be overzealous and biased, which is common enough that multiple thriving communities are dedicated to exposing such behavior.

            In general, I believe that the negative effects of overmoderation are more problematic for this platform than the negative effects of allowing idiots to get downvoted for saying dumb shit.

            • Admiral Patrick@dubvee.org
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              9
              ·
              edit-2
              9 hours ago

              I had hoped that the corporate control over the web was to blame for this, but I’m not so sure anymore.

              I can’t say with 100% certainty that it has or hasn’t, but I can tell you that at least in the BBS, IRC/AIM/ICQ, individual forum days, there were certainly crackpots, but we weren’t all mixed together on a common platform that insisted on giving them equal “airtime” or worse.

              I think that your example could fall under the umbrella of hate speech, and thus removal would be entirely justifiable. Even if it doesn’t qualify as hate speech, moderators still have the discretion to remove it for a variety of other reasons.

              From the post:

              Moderators, if someone is responding to many root comments in every thread, that’s not “in a smaller proportion” and you’re free to do what you like about that. If their “counter” narrative posts are making up half of the posts to your community, you’re free to address that. If they’re belligerent or rude, of course you know what to do. If they’re just saying something you don’t like, respectfully, and they’re not spamming it, use your words instead of your moderation abilities.

              From the way the post is worded, and it was announced officially, it sounds like as long as they’re being civil and not spamming, it’s fair game. I’ll be happy to be proven wrong, but nothing has yet been officially clarified.

              In general, I believe that the negative effects of overmoderation are more problematic for this platform than the negative effects of allowing idiots to get downvoted for saying dumb shit.

              I’ve only seen a handful of communities that were truly over-moderated (read: badly moderated). If it’s just a handful, then maybe deal with them directly.

              Communities are created with rules and expectations for a reason: be it a goal, to maintain a vibe/safe space, or whatever it may be. Vote manipulation in Lemmy is a thing that exists. I even posted about one campaign I dug up; those never went away, merely changed tactics. That is to say that depending on votes to set the record straight is an extremely flawed assumption when bad actors can manipulate it in such a way.

              • imaqtpie@sh.itjust.works
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                4
                ·
                8 hours ago

                Fair enough, you make some good points, although I stand by what I said and I still think this is a good decision on aggregate. Depending on votes is unreliable, but no more unreliable than depending on volunteer mods, and with less of a potential for severe abuse, imo.

                I also want to emphasize that I don’t think this decision will have a significant effect on the actual functioning of communities to the extent that you seem to believe, and it’s more about the principle than anything else.

                Thank you for the discussion, it was illuminating.

    • Billiam@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      30
      ·
      edit-2
      13 hours ago

      If they look at the water fountain, then the toilet, and then they choose the toilet, well maybe they’re not able to be helped.

      But sticking with this analogy, imagine you see someone hanging a sign saying “water fountain” over a toilet, and you’re told you have to leave it there because of “respectful dissent” and “if someone chooses the toilet, they’re not able to be helped.” Which makes more logical sense- telling every single passerby that despite the sign this toilet is in fact not a water fountain, or just taking the sign down and dealing with the few people who do question it?

      Like, I get that heavy-handed opinionated overmoderation is a problem that should be addressed in some way. Forcing mods to blanket accept factual falsehoods isn’t the way to go about it.

      • Nosavingthrow@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        8
        ·
        11 hours ago

        To add to this, the toilet/water fountain example is almost simplistic as to be not worth engaging with. Almost childish. \ The fact of the matter is that everyone has some kind of foolish belief that they might not have taken the time to address. Maybe we don’t just toss people in the trash bin because they were duped, their education system has failed them, or they just are from a part of the world were toilets are not bowls full of water.