There is no “burn it all down and let a Socialist utopia rise from the ashes” perspective on the far-left, and I say that as a Marxist. Anarchists wish to build a new society out of the shell of the old, from within, while Marxists advocate building up dual power. In neither case do leftists believe in rising from “ashes,” but building up and replacing the current system.
too many misunderstand anarchy to be about destroying structures that exist. many of them are doing a pretty good job of that to themselves already, and the ones that are left would rather slaughter us than disarm. it’s the final throes of a dying beast. too dangerous to throw more lives at, but nature will run its course eventually.
so we (anarchists) instead create structure to survive where we are, with the goal of directly helping people help each other, aiming to grow past existing power structures. it has been surprisingly possible to do a lot of praxis without even firebombing a second Chipotle
I don’t see how what I said is different from what you said. My wording pretty clearly included “from within,” it still relies on existing infrastructure and industry but creates new horizontal organizational networks from within. I used to be an Anarchist, I still have knowledge of Anarchism.
Re 2:
Marxist Dual Power and Anarchist Prefiguration are similar approaches but I believe calling them both “dual power” approaches can be very misleading. Marxists and Anarchists want fundamentally different structures in the end and the beginning, agreeing on building up alternatives within existing society does not mean they share anything else truly in common.
I’m not interested in arguing semantics with you. I don’t read what you wrote as properly describing prefiguration. If you disagree, consider it a clarification of what you wrote.
“Marxists and Anarchists want fundamentally different structures in the end”??? Say whut? I thought Marxists understood communism as a stateless society, as well.
Marxists don’t have a monopoly on the approach of dual power. Every anarchist prefigurative approach that doesn’t aim for a utopian commune, separated from the outside capitalist world (i.e.: every re-olutionary approach) is also a dual power approach. Or are you claiming that anarcho-syndicalist tactics aren’t dual power?
The main difference between Marxists and Anarchists in this regard is that Anarchists try to unify means and ends, while Marxists do not. But both try to establish dual power.
The idea that Marxists and Anarchists have the same end goal is common of those who don’t read Marxist theory. Marxists and Anarchists have a different notion of what constitutes a state. Marxists see States as the aspects of society that enforce class oppression, Anarchists see States as monopolies on violence and hierarchy. As a consequence, Communism for Marxists is a world Socialist Republic fully Publicly Owned and Centrally Planned, as classes cease to exist in such a system, while for Anarchists Communism looks like a horizontal spiderweb of mutual aid networks. This fundamental difference in end goal means the tactics are different as well.
Marxists don’t have a monopoly on “Dual Power,” no, but those using the term “Dual Power” are almost always Marxists. I’m not saying that Anarchists don’t practice similar approaches, but that calling said approach “Dual Power” has a Marxist connotation. Again, this is more semantics.
As for unification of Means and Ends, Anarchists place more importance on it but Marxists don’t abandon that either. Engels does a good job of explaining the whithering away of the State:
When ultimately it [Cowbee clarification: The State] becomes the real representative of the whole of society, it renders itself superfluous. As soon as there is no social class to be held in subjection any longer, as soon as class domination and the struggle for individual existence based on the anarchy of production existing up to now are eliminated together with the collisions and excesses arising from them, there is nothing more to repress, nothing necessitating a special repressive force, a state. The first act in which the state really comes forward as the representative of the whole of society – the taking possession of the means of production in the name of society – is at the same time its last independent act as a state. The interference of the state power in social relations becomes superfluous in one sphere after another, and then dies away of itself. The government of persons is replaced by the administration of things and the direction of the processes of production. The state is not “abolished”, it withers away.
The Socialist government that forms the basis of Communism gradually folds Private Property as it develops into monopolist syndicates and makes itself ripe for central planning, this is why Marxists claim the State cannot be abolished overnight.
Question 17 : Will it be possible to abolish private property at one stroke?
Answer : No, no more than the existing productive forces can at one stroke be multiplied to the extent necessary for the creation of a communal society. Hence, the proletarian revolution, which in all probability is approaching, will be able gradually to transform existing society and abolish private property only when the necessary means of production have been created in sufficient quantity.
I’m not trying to argue against Anarchism here, or even argue in general, just offer clarification on Marxism. This community has strict rules against supporting Marxist movements and opposing Anarchism anyways, and I don’t wish to infringe on those rules, but there’s nothing against clarifying the Marxist stance.
A couple paragraphs were necessary to answer questions *you asked.*Do you have any reasoning for saying that? I gave pretty clear examples straight from Engels. Oh well, you can disengage if you want.
They didn’t seem rhetorical, so I answered. Furthermore, I haven’t met a Marxist against public ownership and central planning, only Anarchists, so I pointed out why that was. I’m not trying to debate.
There is no “burn it all down and let a Socialist utopia rise from the ashes” perspective on the far-left, and I say that as a Marxist. Anarchists wish to build a new society out of the shell of the old, from within, while Marxists advocate building up dual power. In neither case do leftists believe in rising from “ashes,” but building up and replacing the current system.
too many misunderstand anarchy to be about destroying structures that exist. many of them are doing a pretty good job of that to themselves already, and the ones that are left would rather slaughter us than disarm. it’s the final throes of a dying beast. too dangerous to throw more lives at, but nature will run its course eventually.
so we (anarchists) instead create structure to survive where we are, with the goal of directly helping people help each other, aiming to grow past existing power structures. it has been surprisingly possible to do a lot of praxis without even firebombing a second Chipotle
Two points:
Re 1:
I don’t see how what I said is different from what you said. My wording pretty clearly included “from within,” it still relies on existing infrastructure and industry but creates new horizontal organizational networks from within. I used to be an Anarchist, I still have knowledge of Anarchism.
Re 2:
Marxist Dual Power and Anarchist Prefiguration are similar approaches but I believe calling them both “dual power” approaches can be very misleading. Marxists and Anarchists want fundamentally different structures in the end and the beginning, agreeing on building up alternatives within existing society does not mean they share anything else truly in common.
I’m not interested in arguing semantics with you. I don’t read what you wrote as properly describing prefiguration. If you disagree, consider it a clarification of what you wrote.
“Marxists and Anarchists want fundamentally different structures in the end”??? Say whut? I thought Marxists understood communism as a stateless society, as well.
Marxists don’t have a monopoly on the approach of dual power. Every anarchist prefigurative approach that doesn’t aim for a utopian commune, separated from the outside capitalist world (i.e.: every re-olutionary approach) is also a dual power approach. Or are you claiming that anarcho-syndicalist tactics aren’t dual power?
The main difference between Marxists and Anarchists in this regard is that Anarchists try to unify means and ends, while Marxists do not. But both try to establish dual power.
As long as we both understand.
The idea that Marxists and Anarchists have the same end goal is common of those who don’t read Marxist theory. Marxists and Anarchists have a different notion of what constitutes a state. Marxists see States as the aspects of society that enforce class oppression, Anarchists see States as monopolies on violence and hierarchy. As a consequence, Communism for Marxists is a world Socialist Republic fully Publicly Owned and Centrally Planned, as classes cease to exist in such a system, while for Anarchists Communism looks like a horizontal spiderweb of mutual aid networks. This fundamental difference in end goal means the tactics are different as well.
Marxists don’t have a monopoly on “Dual Power,” no, but those using the term “Dual Power” are almost always Marxists. I’m not saying that Anarchists don’t practice similar approaches, but that calling said approach “Dual Power” has a Marxist connotation. Again, this is more semantics.
As for unification of Means and Ends, Anarchists place more importance on it but Marxists don’t abandon that either. Engels does a good job of explaining the whithering away of the State:
The Socialist government that forms the basis of Communism gradually folds Private Property as it develops into monopolist syndicates and makes itself ripe for central planning, this is why Marxists claim the State cannot be abolished overnight.
I’m not trying to argue against Anarchism here, or even argue in general, just offer clarification on Marxism. This community has strict rules against supporting Marxist movements and opposing Anarchism anyways, and I don’t wish to infringe on those rules, but there’s nothing against clarifying the Marxist stance.
You really can’t help yourself with all the essays you write when no one is asking, huh?
In short: I disagree (e.g.: I know self-proclaimed Marxists who agree that the end goals of Marxists and Anarchists are the same) and disengage.
A couple paragraphs were necessary to answer questions *you asked.*Do you have any reasoning for saying that? I gave pretty clear examples straight from Engels. Oh well, you can disengage if you want.
Do you always answer rethorical questions? (don’t answer, it’s a rethorical question)
Edit: What question are you actually answering when writing books on your understanding of dual power and means-ends unification?
They didn’t seem rhetorical, so I answered. Furthermore, I haven’t met a Marxist against public ownership and central planning, only Anarchists, so I pointed out why that was. I’m not trying to debate.