No, voting is part of how we move the Overton window to the left. If we don’t vote, it moves to the right.
The parties are not the same. Democrats passed the infrastructure bill, cancelled student load debt, and appointed judges to the courts that uphold our rights. They did those things in response to pressure from grassroots movements that showed the viability of progressive causes. Republicans separated immigrant families, took reproductive freedom away from Americans, and led an insurrection against our country. People who aren’t watching Fox News or otherwise trapped in right-wing information silo can tell them apart.
There’s no way to argue you out of a con. You’ve been duped and we need people like you to realize it. Or things will not get better. The people who sold you the both sides narrative are gone. They spread their misinformation, tanked American democracy, and now you are still parroting their talking points.
I am begging you. You have been fooled. Please believe me. Again, it is not possible for me to argue you out of this. You have to trust someone. If you can’t trust me or any of the other people on lemmy saying the same thing, find someone irl you can trust. That’s the only way you can get better.
First of all, do not tell me that I’ve been “duped” or don’t understand the situation, because I could say the exact same of you thinking the parties are not the same. And to be clear, I did not claim they’re both the same side, in fact, if you go back and look at a lot of my comments from the last week (excluding today), I actually explicitly point out that I encourage everyone to vote for Harris.
But she is not a progressive candidate, and she never ran as a progressice candidate. Everyone here is always screaming about “When someone shows you who they are, believe them” about Trump and his ilk, but none of you will apply the same scrutiny to the Democrats and their party leadership.
As the campaign went on, Harris moved further to the right, and that is evident by her adopting some of Biden’s policies (Biden, btw, is still detaining immigrants at the border and doing all of the things we criticize the Republicans for, in fact, his administration actually helped pass a more strict immigration policy for the border). She garnered as much former Republican support as she could (no Palestinians were allowed to speak at the DNC, but they had how many Republicans parade across the stage).
I am begging you. You have been fooled. Please believe me. Again, it is not possible for me to argue you out of this. You have to trust someone. If you can’t trust me or any of the other people on lemmy saying the same thing, find someone irl you can trust. That’s the only way you can get better.
This is the kind of shit I would expect to hear from a cult, not someone trying to have a rational discussion about the failings of a political party. She showed us she cared more about garnering the votes of Republicans than she did trying to win over progressive non-voters within her own party. Biden has shown us he’s made progress, but not to the average American, and not in any meaningful way.
And y’all need to stop acting like Harris got on stage and by virtue of not being Trump was going to save this country. She’s a career centrist Democrat who ran on a centrist platform, promising a centrist return to the status quo that centrist Joe Biden has been leading us through for four years.
Y’all keep trying to get your party on board with incremental change while they witness landfall change coming from the other party. Maybe the Democrats need to adopt more progressive policies and run candidates voters want to vote for for fucking once, instead of counting in someone to vote against.
Or they can keep screaming that our voices, concerns, and wants don’t matter, and they can keep trying to pander votes from a demographic (Republicans) that will never fucking support them. And, just like in 2016, they care more about the support of people who would never support them.
They lost because of it, and that’s on them. The Democrats need to win voters to their party, and this bullshit Republican-lite “we’re not fascist and we totally promise this time we’ll actually make progress for realsies” isn’t working anymore. I hope they choose to go progressive, but looks more like the Democrats will just shift further right, alienating more progressive voters and giving fascism a stronger foothold next election (assuming we have one).
Kamala was a neoliberal, who would improve things incrementally, running against a fascist. We all knew she wasn’t an ideal candidate and told people that. I know I did. We know the Democrats are neoliberals, a right leaning political position. We needed to delay fascism four more years to get a progressive or socialist candidate in the next Democratic primary. We failed.
It’s over. We lost the election. You were had. I’m sorry that happened. It can happen to anyone.
Take a break, when you feel better, come back. People will be organizing to fight back against fascists. This time, please join them instead of arguing against them. Saying ‘both sides’ isn’t helping.
We needed to delay fascism four more years to get a progressive or socialist candidate in the next Democratic primary.
Yeah, I’m fucking tired of hearing this. Y’know what could’ve delayed fascism and turned out the vote? Any measurable progress for the average American over the last four years.
You’re so oblivious to it, and you act like you’re the only one who actually gets it. You think Biden’s mental acuity dropped overnight in July?
The DNC was well aware of his declining mental health well before that, well before the primaries. And they hid it, and actively chose to hide it from the country, all while acting like all was completely fine. Then they waited for the debate, saw it went disastrously, and then decided it’d be best to run another candidate. Except, le gasp, there is not enough time to run a full primary! Oh no! What do we do?!
Eh, we’ll just run the VP, and we’ll run her on a centrist platform to try and win over Republicans. Yeah, yeah… That’ll do it.
Where was Bernie in that discussion? Or better yet, how did it go trying to get Bernie as the candidate in 2016? I distinctly remember the DNC acting completely above board the entire time, listening to their constituents, and running a progressive campaign tha-
Oh, wait, no, that’s all a lie. Historically, factually, it was a lie. The DNC has made it clear they will not, ever, support a progressive candidate. They showed us that in 2016, they showed us in 2020, and even when faced with fucking fascism, they refused to run a progressive platform in 2024.
This time, please join them instead of arguing against them. Saying ‘both sides’ isn’t helping.
Oh go fuck yourself. Playing the “Just four more years of centrism, we promise for realz this time, 100%” is not helping.
Speaking to people on here like they’re some misguided child who spilled a glass of milk is “not helping.”
Trying to distance the Democrats from the conservative party they are and continue to show themselves to be “isn’t helping.”
We’re on the same team. We try get to the Democrats to win because as progressives and socialists we are outside the Overton Window in the US. Getting the Democrats to win and move to the left is the strategy minority groups have been doing for decades. Disinformation campaigns to make people lose sight of that fundamental strategy is part of how Harris lost. A lot of younger people didn’t know better and fell for it.
Israel’s genocide in Gaza has been Gen Z’s moral injury. Bad actors exploited that to give fascists the win. And a lot of people fell for it.
No one fell for anything, the Democrats are a shitty party who won’t get with the times, no one was brainwashed, you just sound sad and delusional.
Is it true or not that Biden has continued support to Israel, unmitigated and even sidestepping Congress, despite vocal outcries from his constituents? Is it true or not that Harris basically followed Biden’s policy regarding Palestine despite vocal opposition from within her own party?
A lot of younger people didn’t know better and fell for it.
THERE IT IS!! Can’t just blame all voters, no no, now we’ve got to blame young voters specifically for the Democrats failing to distance themselves from a genocide, and running an uninspiring campaign for a large part of their voting populace they completely discounted.
God, I didn’t think it’d be a post-election day discussion without the young people being blamed for everything.
Israel’s genocide in Gaza has been Gen Z’s moral injury.
Israel’s genocide in Gaza was the softest ball the Democrats could’ve been served, and they whiffed on it repeatedly. A proxy state humiliated us and made us their bitch on the world stage, and the Democrats still wouldn’t stop cradling Netanyahu’s balls for him.
And it’s disgusting that politicians put the American people in the situation of having to choose whether or not to support a genocide, and worse, to what degree they support one.
Bad actors exploited that to give fascists the win. And a lot of people fell for it.
I didn’t realize bad actors pointed out the absurdity of the Democrat campaign (not allowing primaries because Biden wouldn’t step down and his staff hid his failing mental faculties, running on a centrist platform despite early progressive motivation, reversing her fracking policy, not supporting M4A, basically being Biden 2.0).
I also didn’t realize bad actors chose to try and court the vote of people who would never support them (Republicans) while making no effort to win over the more progressive part of the party because 🤷♀️. That’s the real “fell for it”: the Democrats really thought “wE’rE nOt FaScIsT” was going to be good enough for another election. They really thought getting Walz to play on Twitch was more important and enticing then telling Americans they would get progressive policies.
But you’re right, let’s keep blaming the voters fed up with the system, and especially being fed up with, “No no, for realz, this time for realz we promise we’ll do the things we promised the last 4 times, really for real.”
Maybe the Democrats should’ve taken their voters seriously, and their wants seriously, at any point in the last few decades. But no, we get centrist, status quo bullshit, and if we demand our candidates move left, we get chucklefucks like you telling us we need to meet them in the very middle, and then we can start asking them to move our way. Bullshit, the Democrats can move left, or they can cease to exist, we keep trying it their way, and nothing is getting done.
Hope it was worth losing to fascism, DNC, you and your party elite sure do keep showing us you know best. 👍
We lost to fascism. This is the useless rhetoric that lost us the election. If we wait for the perfect candidate we will never see any progress in this country again. We got to this point with the rights we have because people voted for the furthest left option they could.
You have fallen for every fallacy that was thrown at you this election. As long as you care more about keeping your hands clean than people you will be stuck this way. Find someone you can trust irl. Anyone who has something to lose from this christo-fascist takeover will tell you got it wrong. Rejecting the Democrats feels good to you, but it has done nothing but harm the causes you claim to care about.
We knew the Democrats were neoliberals. The assignment was to prevent the christo-fascist takeover. People who didn’t vote for Harris or spread this rhetoric failed the assignment. Trump may get two more Supreme Court picks and Israel will be allowed to continue their genocide of Palestinians indefinitely.
The stakes could not have been higher this election. At no point does the Democrats being neoliberals who are bad on issues compel us to be ineffectual. We got bogged down by rhetoric that got in the way of what we as the left needed to win, record voter turnout.
Everything in your post boils down to the Democrats didn’t promise me everything I wanted so it’s the Democrat’s fault. This is a useless mindset that helps no one. For everyone’s sake, ditch it.
A politicians job during a campaign is to convince people they are worth electing.
Harris lost the electoral college and the popular vote. Harris failed to convince a majority of the electorate that she was worth voting for. That’s it, that’s the whole story: she failed to win over voters, and failed to rally support from her own party.
She became Biden 2.0 as her campaign went on, and people didn’t want four more years of Biden. She showed no meaningful difference between the current administration and her own should she win.
She lost Michigan by less than 100,000 votes. More than 100,000 people protest voted over Palestine during the primaries there. Harris took that information, and doubled down on Biden’s policy, ignoring her constituents. The DNC welcomed numerous Republican officials to speak at the DNC, the same officials who helped Trump during his first presidency, they were welcomed with open arms. But no Palestinian Democrats, including those put forward by the Uncommitted Protest Vote Movement, were given time to speak at the DNC.
And as her campaign went on, she proved that was more concerned with trying to win over Republicans (like Hillary failed to do in 2016, and Biden failed to do in 2020) than she was trying to rally support from her own undecided voters and non-voters. Less than 40% of eligible voters vote, so her strategy was completely write off the 60% that could he won over, and focus on trying to win conservatives, which required more Centrist policies, which just alienates progressive Democrats…
Anyway, let’s see, oh yeah: 94% of registered Republicans voted for Republicans in 2024, the exact same amount as 2020.
No one was duped, you sound weird and strange talking the way you do. It’s off-putting and makes me want to actively work against Democracy, because you’re doing exactly what I’ve been describing: dismissing everything I have to say while condescendingly speaking to me like I’m some misguided child.
You need grow up and accept that the Democrats fucked up, backed the wrong strategies, and were significantly more unpopular than they thought they were.
It is sad how quickly and easily you’ve fallen for the fallacy that it’s not party leadership, but the voters they’re supposed to represent and reflect that are the reason why Democrats can’t fucking win. Absolutely delusional.
A politicians job during a campaign is to convince people they are worth electing.
Which is why American politicians stay in the American Overton window. Which is on the right side of the political spectrum. The way we made progress is by voting for the party that was the furthest to the left.
She became Biden 2.0 as her campaign went on,
DNC consultants, including Hillary Clinton, took over Harris’ campaign after the DNC and ran it into the ground. That’s not permission to give fascists a free pass. We are not Democrats. We don’t live or die based on what Democrat politicians do. We find a way to make their campaign work because everyone’s lives depend on it. There’s too much at stake to just throw up our hands and say both sides. Democracy is not we the Democrats, it’s We the People.
Anyway, let’s see, oh yeah: 94% of registered Republicans voted for Republicans in 2024, the exact same amount as 2020.
Yes, Republicans demonstrating they understand how democracy works as they dismantle it.
No one was duped, you sound weird and strange talking the way you do. It’s off-putting and makes me want to actively work against Democracy, because you’re doing exactly what I’ve been describing: dismissing everything I have to say while condescendingly speaking to me like I’m some misguided child.
This is you. Duped. Sounding weird and strange. Actively working against democracy because you didn’t get what you wanted. It is an incredibly childlike temper tantrum.
The options were Biden or Harris or fascism. Through our collective failure we have chosen fascism. As adults, it’s our job to take responsibility for what We the People had control over, which was our votes. Now if we fail to organize we will likely end up in death camps.
You’ve given up your agency the second you had someone to blame your misfortune on. I recommend you reconsider. There is again to much at stake to continue blame a party that is now going to prison. If we fail, we will again have no one to blame but ourselves.
No, voting is part of how we move the Overton window to the left. If we don’t vote, it moves to the right.
The parties are not the same. Democrats passed the infrastructure bill, cancelled student load debt, and appointed judges to the courts that uphold our rights. They did those things in response to pressure from grassroots movements that showed the viability of progressive causes. Republicans separated immigrant families, took reproductive freedom away from Americans, and led an insurrection against our country. People who aren’t watching Fox News or otherwise trapped in right-wing information silo can tell them apart.
There’s no way to argue you out of a con. You’ve been duped and we need people like you to realize it. Or things will not get better. The people who sold you the both sides narrative are gone. They spread their misinformation, tanked American democracy, and now you are still parroting their talking points.
I am begging you. You have been fooled. Please believe me. Again, it is not possible for me to argue you out of this. You have to trust someone. If you can’t trust me or any of the other people on lemmy saying the same thing, find someone irl you can trust. That’s the only way you can get better.
First of all, do not tell me that I’ve been “duped” or don’t understand the situation, because I could say the exact same of you thinking the parties are not the same. And to be clear, I did not claim they’re both the same side, in fact, if you go back and look at a lot of my comments from the last week (excluding today), I actually explicitly point out that I encourage everyone to vote for Harris.
But she is not a progressive candidate, and she never ran as a progressice candidate. Everyone here is always screaming about “When someone shows you who they are, believe them” about Trump and his ilk, but none of you will apply the same scrutiny to the Democrats and their party leadership.
As the campaign went on, Harris moved further to the right, and that is evident by her adopting some of Biden’s policies (Biden, btw, is still detaining immigrants at the border and doing all of the things we criticize the Republicans for, in fact, his administration actually helped pass a more strict immigration policy for the border). She garnered as much former Republican support as she could (no Palestinians were allowed to speak at the DNC, but they had how many Republicans parade across the stage).
This is the kind of shit I would expect to hear from a cult, not someone trying to have a rational discussion about the failings of a political party. She showed us she cared more about garnering the votes of Republicans than she did trying to win over progressive non-voters within her own party. Biden has shown us he’s made progress, but not to the average American, and not in any meaningful way.
And y’all need to stop acting like Harris got on stage and by virtue of not being Trump was going to save this country. She’s a career centrist Democrat who ran on a centrist platform, promising a centrist return to the status quo that centrist Joe Biden has been leading us through for four years.
Y’all keep trying to get your party on board with incremental change while they witness landfall change coming from the other party. Maybe the Democrats need to adopt more progressive policies and run candidates voters want to vote for for fucking once, instead of counting in someone to vote against.
Or they can keep screaming that our voices, concerns, and wants don’t matter, and they can keep trying to pander votes from a demographic (Republicans) that will never fucking support them. And, just like in 2016, they care more about the support of people who would never support them.
They lost because of it, and that’s on them. The Democrats need to win voters to their party, and this bullshit Republican-lite “we’re not fascist and we totally promise this time we’ll actually make progress for realsies” isn’t working anymore. I hope they choose to go progressive, but looks more like the Democrats will just shift further right, alienating more progressive voters and giving fascism a stronger foothold next election (assuming we have one).
Kamala was a neoliberal, who would improve things incrementally, running against a fascist. We all knew she wasn’t an ideal candidate and told people that. I know I did. We know the Democrats are neoliberals, a right leaning political position. We needed to delay fascism four more years to get a progressive or socialist candidate in the next Democratic primary. We failed.
It’s over. We lost the election. You were had. I’m sorry that happened. It can happen to anyone.
Take a break, when you feel better, come back. People will be organizing to fight back against fascists. This time, please join them instead of arguing against them. Saying ‘both sides’ isn’t helping.
It’s people like you that just prove my point.
I voted for Harris. I wasn’t “had.”
Yeah, I’m fucking tired of hearing this. Y’know what could’ve delayed fascism and turned out the vote? Any measurable progress for the average American over the last four years.
You’re so oblivious to it, and you act like you’re the only one who actually gets it. You think Biden’s mental acuity dropped overnight in July?
The DNC was well aware of his declining mental health well before that, well before the primaries. And they hid it, and actively chose to hide it from the country, all while acting like all was completely fine. Then they waited for the debate, saw it went disastrously, and then decided it’d be best to run another candidate. Except, le gasp, there is not enough time to run a full primary! Oh no! What do we do?!
Eh, we’ll just run the VP, and we’ll run her on a centrist platform to try and win over Republicans. Yeah, yeah… That’ll do it.
Where was Bernie in that discussion? Or better yet, how did it go trying to get Bernie as the candidate in 2016? I distinctly remember the DNC acting completely above board the entire time, listening to their constituents, and running a progressive campaign tha-
Oh, wait, no, that’s all a lie. Historically, factually, it was a lie. The DNC has made it clear they will not, ever, support a progressive candidate. They showed us that in 2016, they showed us in 2020, and even when faced with fucking fascism, they refused to run a progressive platform in 2024.
Oh go fuck yourself. Playing the “Just four more years of centrism, we promise for realz this time, 100%” is not helping.
Speaking to people on here like they’re some misguided child who spilled a glass of milk is “not helping.”
Trying to distance the Democrats from the conservative party they are and continue to show themselves to be “isn’t helping.”
Fuck you.
We’re on the same team. We try get to the Democrats to win because as progressives and socialists we are outside the Overton Window in the US. Getting the Democrats to win and move to the left is the strategy minority groups have been doing for decades. Disinformation campaigns to make people lose sight of that fundamental strategy is part of how Harris lost. A lot of younger people didn’t know better and fell for it.
Israel’s genocide in Gaza has been Gen Z’s moral injury. Bad actors exploited that to give fascists the win. And a lot of people fell for it.
No one fell for anything, the Democrats are a shitty party who won’t get with the times, no one was brainwashed, you just sound sad and delusional.
Is it true or not that Biden has continued support to Israel, unmitigated and even sidestepping Congress, despite vocal outcries from his constituents? Is it true or not that Harris basically followed Biden’s policy regarding Palestine despite vocal opposition from within her own party?
THERE IT IS!! Can’t just blame all voters, no no, now we’ve got to blame young voters specifically for the Democrats failing to distance themselves from a genocide, and running an uninspiring campaign for a large part of their voting populace they completely discounted.
God, I didn’t think it’d be a post-election day discussion without the young people being blamed for everything.
Israel’s genocide in Gaza was the softest ball the Democrats could’ve been served, and they whiffed on it repeatedly. A proxy state humiliated us and made us their bitch on the world stage, and the Democrats still wouldn’t stop cradling Netanyahu’s balls for him.
And it’s disgusting that politicians put the American people in the situation of having to choose whether or not to support a genocide, and worse, to what degree they support one.
I didn’t realize bad actors pointed out the absurdity of the Democrat campaign (not allowing primaries because Biden wouldn’t step down and his staff hid his failing mental faculties, running on a centrist platform despite early progressive motivation, reversing her fracking policy, not supporting M4A, basically being Biden 2.0).
I also didn’t realize bad actors chose to try and court the vote of people who would never support them (Republicans) while making no effort to win over the more progressive part of the party because 🤷♀️. That’s the real “fell for it”: the Democrats really thought “wE’rE nOt FaScIsT” was going to be good enough for another election. They really thought getting Walz to play on Twitch was more important and enticing then telling Americans they would get progressive policies.
But you’re right, let’s keep blaming the voters fed up with the system, and especially being fed up with, “No no, for realz, this time for realz we promise we’ll do the things we promised the last 4 times, really for real.”
Maybe the Democrats should’ve taken their voters seriously, and their wants seriously, at any point in the last few decades. But no, we get centrist, status quo bullshit, and if we demand our candidates move left, we get chucklefucks like you telling us we need to meet them in the very middle, and then we can start asking them to move our way. Bullshit, the Democrats can move left, or they can cease to exist, we keep trying it their way, and nothing is getting done.
Hope it was worth losing to fascism, DNC, you and your party elite sure do keep showing us you know best. 👍
We lost to fascism. This is the useless rhetoric that lost us the election. If we wait for the perfect candidate we will never see any progress in this country again. We got to this point with the rights we have because people voted for the furthest left option they could.
You have fallen for every fallacy that was thrown at you this election. As long as you care more about keeping your hands clean than people you will be stuck this way. Find someone you can trust irl. Anyone who has something to lose from this christo-fascist takeover will tell you got it wrong. Rejecting the Democrats feels good to you, but it has done nothing but harm the causes you claim to care about.
We knew the Democrats were neoliberals. The assignment was to prevent the christo-fascist takeover. People who didn’t vote for Harris or spread this rhetoric failed the assignment. Trump may get two more Supreme Court picks and Israel will be allowed to continue their genocide of Palestinians indefinitely.
The stakes could not have been higher this election. At no point does the Democrats being neoliberals who are bad on issues compel us to be ineffectual. We got bogged down by rhetoric that got in the way of what we as the left needed to win, record voter turnout.
Everything in your post boils down to the Democrats didn’t promise me everything I wanted so it’s the Democrat’s fault. This is a useless mindset that helps no one. For everyone’s sake, ditch it.
A politicians job during a campaign is to convince people they are worth electing.
Harris lost the electoral college and the popular vote. Harris failed to convince a majority of the electorate that she was worth voting for. That’s it, that’s the whole story: she failed to win over voters, and failed to rally support from her own party.
She became Biden 2.0 as her campaign went on, and people didn’t want four more years of Biden. She showed no meaningful difference between the current administration and her own should she win.
She lost Michigan by less than 100,000 votes. More than 100,000 people protest voted over Palestine during the primaries there. Harris took that information, and doubled down on Biden’s policy, ignoring her constituents. The DNC welcomed numerous Republican officials to speak at the DNC, the same officials who helped Trump during his first presidency, they were welcomed with open arms. But no Palestinian Democrats, including those put forward by the Uncommitted Protest Vote Movement, were given time to speak at the DNC.
And as her campaign went on, she proved that was more concerned with trying to win over Republicans (like Hillary failed to do in 2016, and Biden failed to do in 2020) than she was trying to rally support from her own undecided voters and non-voters. Less than 40% of eligible voters vote, so her strategy was completely write off the 60% that could he won over, and focus on trying to win conservatives, which required more Centrist policies, which just alienates progressive Democrats…
Anyway, let’s see, oh yeah: 94% of registered Republicans voted for Republicans in 2024, the exact same amount as 2020.
No one was duped, you sound weird and strange talking the way you do. It’s off-putting and makes me want to actively work against Democracy, because you’re doing exactly what I’ve been describing: dismissing everything I have to say while condescendingly speaking to me like I’m some misguided child.
You need grow up and accept that the Democrats fucked up, backed the wrong strategies, and were significantly more unpopular than they thought they were.
It is sad how quickly and easily you’ve fallen for the fallacy that it’s not party leadership, but the voters they’re supposed to represent and reflect that are the reason why Democrats can’t fucking win. Absolutely delusional.
Which is why American politicians stay in the American Overton window. Which is on the right side of the political spectrum. The way we made progress is by voting for the party that was the furthest to the left.
DNC consultants, including Hillary Clinton, took over Harris’ campaign after the DNC and ran it into the ground. That’s not permission to give fascists a free pass. We are not Democrats. We don’t live or die based on what Democrat politicians do. We find a way to make their campaign work because everyone’s lives depend on it. There’s too much at stake to just throw up our hands and say both sides. Democracy is not we the Democrats, it’s We the People.
Yes, Republicans demonstrating they understand how democracy works as they dismantle it.
This is you. Duped. Sounding weird and strange. Actively working against democracy because you didn’t get what you wanted. It is an incredibly childlike temper tantrum.
The options were Biden or Harris or fascism. Through our collective failure we have chosen fascism. As adults, it’s our job to take responsibility for what We the People had control over, which was our votes. Now if we fail to organize we will likely end up in death camps.
You’ve given up your agency the second you had someone to blame your misfortune on. I recommend you reconsider. There is again to much at stake to continue blame a party that is now going to prison. If we fail, we will again have no one to blame but ourselves.