> Greta Thunberg > @GretaThunberg
[https://x.com/GretaThunberg/status/1852331823428247927] > > #UsaElection
#USA2024 #StopArminglsrael #FreePalestine #ClimateJusticeNow > > This year we
have seen many defining elections all over the world. On November 5th, It is
time for one of the most powerful countries in the world — the USA — to go to
the polls. It is probably Impossible to overestimate the consequences this
specific election will have for the world and for the future of humanity. > >
There is no doubt that one of the candidates — Trump — is way more dangerous
than the other. But no matter if Trump or Harris wins, the USA — a country built
on stolen land and genocide on indigenous people -will soll be an imperialist
hyper-capitalist world power that will ultimately continue to lead the world
further into a racist, unequal world with an ever increasingly escalating
climate- and environmental emergency. > > With this in mind, my main message to
Americans is to remember that you cannot only settle for the least worst option.
Democracy is not only every four years on election day, but also every hour of
every day in between. You cannot think you have done “enough’ only by voting,
especially when both those candidates have blood on their hands. Lets not forget
that the genocide in Palestine is happening under the Biden and Harris
administration, with American money and complicity. It is not in any way
'feminist.” “progressive” or “humanitarian” to bomb innocent children and
civilians — it is the opposite, even It it is a woman in charge. And this is of
course one example among many of American imperialism. I cannot for my life
understand how some can even pretend to talk about humanitarian values, without
even questioning their own role In further deepening global oppression and
massacres of entire countries. > > So, Americans, you must do everything in your
power to call out this extreme hypocrisy and the catastrophic consequences
American Imperialism has on a global scale. Be uncomfortable, fill the streets,
block, organise, boycott, occupy, explicitly call out those in power whose
actions and Inaction lead to death and destruction. Join and support those who
are resisting and leading the change. Nothing less will ever be acceptable.
Mod of !anarchism@slrpnk.net posts a great Greta Thunberg quote, but then tries to use it to justify not voting in the upcoming US election
Multiple people point out that’s very clearly not what she meant
Removed by modRemoved by modRemoved by modRemoved by mod
Using your mod powers to decide who is allowed and not allowed to speak is not very anarchist of you, @mambabasa@slrpnk.net
Is this really what we are going to be? I don’t recall the community every banning people left and right for comments like these. I myself made similar arguments before, where is my ban and comment removal? OP here did not post anything in bad faith, they didn’t come to troll, nobody complained and there also wasn’t a flood of the community. There was a total of 17 comments, 7 were removed, and 5 are just the mod getting into fights with people, and the post was locked after that. This is something you support?
Speaking of the mod, they are aggressive and insulting in every comment they make, almost every post is “don’t vote for Harris”, and this has been flooding the local instance for some time now (11 posts “don’t vote for Harris” in 2 days last week). There is absolutely nothing constructive in this whole story, just one person making as much noise as possible without adding anything constructive and then banning people who make good faith counter-arguments. I thought this was one mod out of control, but if you support all of this, if this is what the slrpnk anarchist community is, I have to say that I am profoundly disappointed in this instance. I can only hope that the majority of slrpnk.net would condemn this whole story, they just aren’t aware.
You are mixing up different things here. I was also not so happy about the high number of low quality memes they posted in a short period of time inciting nothing but anger shortly before a very emotionally loaded election. I mentioned to the mod privately that I found this quite trollish at this exact point in time and they agreed to stop.
The specific post in question was maybe one of the less bad ones (Greta’s take is pretty sensible IMHO) and due to the high number of upvotes it had the usual drive-by comments by non-community members that were mostly off-topic, did nothing but stoke the flames and were also partially offensive*. Maybe the mod overacted somewhat with deleting most of them, but locking the thread was absolutely the right call after it derailed and handing out a temporary (!) community ban to a very argumentative drive-by poster is IMHO good practice to defuse the situation.
*I agree with the mod that you can vote for your lesser evil or strategically whatever, but there is no need to provide lengthy ideological justifications to convince yourself and others that it was something other than a lesser evil vote.
Repeated explicitly political memes spamming the community = “not so happy”
This election is hugely important and, however shit some Democratic policies are when compared against what we actually need, Trump is clearly dangerous as fuck on a whole other level. That applies to the Mideast just as firmly as it does on climate change. Personally I agree with 100% of what she has to say here, both the first and second parts.
= “nothing but stoke the flames and were also partially offensive” “no need to provide lengthy ideological justifications to convince yourself and others that is was something other than a lesser evil vote”, 10 day ban
What a crock of shit. You’re buying word for word the mod’s revisionist history about “ideological justifications” where I don’t think those ever existed in any of the messages they deleted. Definitely not in mine. See for yourself:
I’m not a troll. I don’t make bad-faith arguments, create political spam, or inflame things to no purpose. This person does, and you’re giving them authority and booting me from the community.
I’m not trying to reopen the discussion by saying this. It’s been and gone, and I’ve moved on from !anarchism@slrpnk.net. I think this person has learned how to manipulate the Slrpnk admins to their liking for their own political ends. Have fun with them.
No one said you were intentionally trolling or making bad faith arguments. What you did was randomly enter a post you disagreed with and started an off-topic argument with the OP using emotionally loaded language to justify something that is in the end just a very mundane lesser evil decision. I am old enough to have seen this spiel out many times during every other election cycle and I find it quite offensive to be exposed to such arguments lacking even the slightest bit of self-reflection, especially in what is supposed to be an Anarchist community.
I find it quite offensive to be exposed to such arguments lacking even the slightest bit of self-reflection
Here. I’m just going to paste what I said elsewhere in these comments:
But please, tell me why anarchists should tolerate anti-anarchism, liberalism, and ideological cover for genocide in their space. I’m sure it’s enlightening.
Because talking with people who don’t agree with you is a valuable thing to do.
If I’m wrong, and you take some time to talk with me, maybe I’ll absorb what you are saying, and take it on as a good idea. Probably not the first time, but it does happen over time. It’s good to be able to talk with other humans. If as soon as I’m wrong, you ban me, then I’ll never have that opportunity, and I’ll just go on being wrong and getting banned from places, indefinitely.
If you’re wrong, or what you’re saying is applicable sometimes but it’s not a good idea in some other situations, letting me say what I’ve got to say might show you a new perspective. Or, even if you’re completely set in your way, it’s still valuable for the people watching the conversation to be able to see both sides expressed, and decide for themselves.
I think it’s universally agreed that the places on Reddit and Lemmy that aggressively remove “the wrong viewpoint” are laughingstocks. A lot of the time, they’re doing that because they don’t have a good answer for questions people are asking or points they’re making. You’ve chosen to make !anarchism@slrpnk.net into one of them, in this one particular instance. Well done.
You’ve asked over and over why I am supporting genocide. I explained over and over that what I’m saying is an attempt to prevent genocide, and calmly explained how. That pattern eventually starts to sink in, for people watching the conversation, even if it never does for you, and impacts what they take away from the conversation. I think it would be better for you to reassess your way of approaching conversation with people who don’t agree with you, but you do you.
See how good this is? We don’t agree on things, and we’re talking to each other. It’s normal, it’s healthy. Like I said, if you’re insistent on making “your” community into one where that can’t happen, that’s on you, but I think it’s a bad idea.
I think, if I’m being honest, that the lack of time and moderation resources is at the root of a lot of this. You made a separate comment about that under Blaze’s comment. I think that’s the real issue. I think if someone could wave a magic wand, and have moderation of !anarchism without giving god-power to any given person who’s also an active participant in an argument in the discussion, a lot of these issues would go away. I made a whole post somewhere talking about how mods being an underappreciated volunteer position I think leads inevitably to the “mods are power tripping” perception and pattern, whether or not it’s accurate in any given case.
You’re able to run your instance however you want to run it. Good luck.
There are certainly many things that could be improved about Lemmy’s moderation tools and general setup, I agree.
However the core argument is not about “talking with people who don’t agree with you is a valuable thing to do”. There was no real disagreement about any topic where an exchange of ideas would be beneficial to both sides. Unless you have infinite patience, there is no point in arguing with people that don’t even realize how hypocritical their position is, in fact usually doing so only results in them digging in their heels and arguing even stronger as you are likely challenging some of their deeply held believes. I believe this is what happened, and your reaction in the original post itself and even more so in making this new thread to complain about someone not having infinite patience with you pretty much proves that.
We have two very different opinions about what the purpose of moderation is. Among some other things.
There’s a huge difference between “not having infinite patience” to talk with someone, and deleting comments from several different people who are trying to have a discussion with each another about how they disagree with your point of view, thus driving the conversation to some other location where people come to a broad consensus that you’re out of line. Honestly, that’s part of why I posted here, to serve as a check to make sure I wasn’t the one being awful. There seemed to be a broad consensus formed after all the discussion, which I’m happy with. The slrpnk authorities as a group plus db0, seem to have their own consensus, which of course they’ve got a right to do.
If you’ve read some of my comments and exchanges and you’ve decided that talking with me would take infinite patience, then okay. If you’ve read Mambabasa’s comments and think they deserve a position of authority, then okay. I don’t seem to have any issues talking and interacting with a bunch of anarchists, and presumably a wide variety of people, in these comments. Probably I will continue to do so. Slrpnk can do what it likes.
I think this person has learned how to manipulate the Slrpnk admins to their liking for their own political ends.
I dont know why you would need such conspiracy theories when there is a much simpler way to explain it, which was confirmed by most folks(mods and admins alike): We are fine with the moderation actions taken, we dont need to be manipulated for this.
Its quite something to make up a conspiracy after writing this just a few sentences earlier:
I’m not a troll. I don’t make bad-faith arguments, […] or inflame things to no purpose.
Mambabasa’s posting history at the time I looked at it started with:
Kamala Harris = genocide
Kamala Harris = genocide
Democrats = party of genocide
Kamala Harris = genocide
Democrats = genocide
Greta Thunberg quote
“Elect the Democrats” satire
“Vote Democrat” satire
“Vote Democrat” satire
“Vote Democrat” satire
“Don’t think, just vote” satire
“Vote Democrat” satire
“Don’t think, just vote” satire
I don’t think it’s inflammatory or a conspiracy theory to say that there’s a visible pattern there which points to a very un-anti-electoral goal for their participation. If I was doing half the spamminess of participation that their history evinces, or done half as much inflammatory participation as they’ve done in these comments, I’d leave the platform on my own, feeling bad that I’d done that much to bring badness to the platform.
SLRPNK is an intentionally both an international instance, as well as an ideologically diverse instance. We give a lot of autonomy to moderators. Despite being administered by anarchists and having a significant membership that identifies as anarchist, we expect our anti-fascist moderators to follow the politics of their conscience rather than toe a particular anarchist line. Solarpunk is an internationalist movement, and should not be dominated by any one country or culture.
These two goals sometimes create tension. A significant portion of our international audience is from the United States, and some SLRPNK moderators have filled their community feeds with Democratic Party propaganda. I guarantee @mambabasa does not want Trump to win, and criticizing the hypocrisy of liberal politicians and the losing proposition of elevating electoral politics above direct action is not an endorsement of fascism.
Mambabasa’s posting history at the time I looked at it started with:
His meme posts exist in the context of a local feed full of United States election centered news in what is supposed to be a haven for internationalists and anarchists. They’re a reminder that anarchists are not edgy Democrats, and if that idea is offensive, you can unsubscribe and block !anarchism and !notvoting@slrpnk.net. Other people existing who don’t share your politics and have their own spaces should not be so threatening to someone with confidence in their own ideology.
I wasn’t asking that as a sarcastic question. It was serious.
I don’t think there are communities on Slrpnk that are brimming with Democratic propaganda. There’s some kind of weird backwards-ism going on here, where Mambabasa constantly spamming stuff about Harris and the Democrats counts as some kind of innocent anarchism, and I’m dogpiling partisan propaganda on him when I say that actually it sounds pretty clear to me that Greta Thunberg is saying Trump and specifically Trump is a terrible threat. I think you’re exaggerating events into this caricature, and then telling me straight-faced that the caricature is what’s going on. But, maybe not. Maybe I’m wrong. So, I asked about the Democratic propaganda on Slrpnk that you’re saying is happening.
I think the bulk of Lemmy, anarchist and not, sees it the same way I do here. You can look up and down in these comments if you want. You and the other Slrpnk admins are not required to see it the same, of course, or to give me a serious response. You can say whatever you like. But it was a serious question.
I haven’t seen evidence of a strong majority being fine with the decision.
Among slrpnk commenters on this post I believe the split was 3-3, or possibly 3-2-1.
Taking into account the comments from dbzer0 folks, it goes to 5-5 or 5-4-1.
Self-proclaimed anarchists from other instances represent, by my accounting, 1 more “for” and 4 more “against.”
The other comments from users who may or may not identify as anarchists appear to slant towards against by about the same margin.
It could be that one or both of us carries a bias in how we perceive support that aligns with what we already believe. I tried to be cognizant of that when I scrolled through to count, but I’m fallible. If I’ve misrepresented, it wasn’t on purpose. That said, I think at best there’s a somewhat even split. I don’t think you can claim that as “most folks” being fine with the actions taken.
Additionally, the way the mod conducted themselves in these comments doesn’t inspire much confidence that they moderated in good faith
Is this really what we are going to be? I don’t recall the community every banning people left and right for comments like these. I myself made similar arguments before, where is my ban and comment removal? OP here did not post anything in bad faith, they didn’t come to troll, nobody complained and there also wasn’t a flood of the community. There was a total of 17 comments, 7 were removed, and 5 are just the mod getting into fights with people, and the post was locked after that. This is something you support?
Speaking of the mod, they are aggressive and insulting in every comment they make, almost every post is “don’t vote for Harris”, and this has been flooding the local instance for some time now (11 posts “don’t vote for Harris” in 2 days last week). There is absolutely nothing constructive in this whole story, just one person making as much noise as possible without adding anything constructive and then banning people who make good faith counter-arguments. I thought this was one mod out of control, but if you support all of this, if this is what the slrpnk anarchist community is, I have to say that I am profoundly disappointed in this instance. I can only hope that the majority of slrpnk.net would condemn this whole story, they just aren’t aware.
You are mixing up different things here. I was also not so happy about the high number of low quality memes they posted in a short period of time inciting nothing but anger shortly before a very emotionally loaded election. I mentioned to the mod privately that I found this quite trollish at this exact point in time and they agreed to stop.
The specific post in question was maybe one of the less bad ones (Greta’s take is pretty sensible IMHO) and due to the high number of upvotes it had the usual drive-by comments by non-community members that were mostly off-topic, did nothing but stoke the flames and were also partially offensive*. Maybe the mod overacted somewhat with deleting most of them, but locking the thread was absolutely the right call after it derailed and handing out a temporary (!) community ban to a very argumentative drive-by poster is IMHO good practice to defuse the situation.
*I agree with the mod that you can vote for your lesser evil or strategically whatever, but there is no need to provide lengthy ideological justifications to convince yourself and others that it was something other than a lesser evil vote.
Repeated explicitly political memes spamming the community = “not so happy”
= “nothing but stoke the flames and were also partially offensive” “no need to provide lengthy ideological justifications to convince yourself and others that is was something other than a lesser evil vote”, 10 day ban
What a crock of shit. You’re buying word for word the mod’s revisionist history about “ideological justifications” where I don’t think those ever existed in any of the messages they deleted. Definitely not in mine. See for yourself:
https://ponder.cat/comment/791878
I’m not a troll. I don’t make bad-faith arguments, create political spam, or inflame things to no purpose. This person does, and you’re giving them authority and booting me from the community.
I’m not trying to reopen the discussion by saying this. It’s been and gone, and I’ve moved on from !anarchism@slrpnk.net. I think this person has learned how to manipulate the Slrpnk admins to their liking for their own political ends. Have fun with them.
No one said you were intentionally trolling or making bad faith arguments. What you did was randomly enter a post you disagreed with and started an off-topic argument with the OP using emotionally loaded language to justify something that is in the end just a very mundane lesser evil decision. I am old enough to have seen this spiel out many times during every other election cycle and I find it quite offensive to be exposed to such arguments lacking even the slightest bit of self-reflection, especially in what is supposed to be an Anarchist community.
Here. I’m just going to paste what I said elsewhere in these comments:
I think, if I’m being honest, that the lack of time and moderation resources is at the root of a lot of this. You made a separate comment about that under Blaze’s comment. I think that’s the real issue. I think if someone could wave a magic wand, and have moderation of !anarchism without giving god-power to any given person who’s also an active participant in an argument in the discussion, a lot of these issues would go away. I made a whole post somewhere talking about how mods being an underappreciated volunteer position I think leads inevitably to the “mods are power tripping” perception and pattern, whether or not it’s accurate in any given case.
You’re able to run your instance however you want to run it. Good luck.
There are certainly many things that could be improved about Lemmy’s moderation tools and general setup, I agree.
However the core argument is not about “talking with people who don’t agree with you is a valuable thing to do”. There was no real disagreement about any topic where an exchange of ideas would be beneficial to both sides. Unless you have infinite patience, there is no point in arguing with people that don’t even realize how hypocritical their position is, in fact usually doing so only results in them digging in their heels and arguing even stronger as you are likely challenging some of their deeply held believes. I believe this is what happened, and your reaction in the original post itself and even more so in making this new thread to complain about someone not having infinite patience with you pretty much proves that.
We have two very different opinions about what the purpose of moderation is. Among some other things.
There’s a huge difference between “not having infinite patience” to talk with someone, and deleting comments from several different people who are trying to have a discussion with each another about how they disagree with your point of view, thus driving the conversation to some other location where people come to a broad consensus that you’re out of line. Honestly, that’s part of why I posted here, to serve as a check to make sure I wasn’t the one being awful. There seemed to be a broad consensus formed after all the discussion, which I’m happy with. The slrpnk authorities as a group plus db0, seem to have their own consensus, which of course they’ve got a right to do.
If you’ve read some of my comments and exchanges and you’ve decided that talking with me would take infinite patience, then okay. If you’ve read Mambabasa’s comments and think they deserve a position of authority, then okay. I don’t seem to have any issues talking and interacting with a bunch of anarchists, and presumably a wide variety of people, in these comments. Probably I will continue to do so. Slrpnk can do what it likes.
I dont know why you would need such conspiracy theories when there is a much simpler way to explain it, which was confirmed by most folks(mods and admins alike): We are fine with the moderation actions taken, we dont need to be manipulated for this.
Its quite something to make up a conspiracy after writing this just a few sentences earlier:
Mambabasa’s posting history at the time I looked at it started with:
I don’t think it’s inflammatory or a conspiracy theory to say that there’s a visible pattern there which points to a very un-anti-electoral goal for their participation. If I was doing half the spamminess of participation that their history evinces, or done half as much inflammatory participation as they’ve done in these comments, I’d leave the platform on my own, feeling bad that I’d done that much to bring badness to the platform.
Clearly. Like I said, have fun with it.
SLRPNK is an intentionally both an international instance, as well as an ideologically diverse instance. We give a lot of autonomy to moderators. Despite being administered by anarchists and having a significant membership that identifies as anarchist, we expect our anti-fascist moderators to follow the politics of their conscience rather than toe a particular anarchist line. Solarpunk is an internationalist movement, and should not be dominated by any one country or culture.
These two goals sometimes create tension. A significant portion of our international audience is from the United States, and some SLRPNK moderators have filled their community feeds with Democratic Party propaganda. I guarantee @mambabasa does not want Trump to win, and criticizing the hypocrisy of liberal politicians and the losing proposition of elevating electoral politics above direct action is not an endorsement of fascism.
His meme posts exist in the context of a local feed full of United States election centered news in what is supposed to be a haven for internationalists and anarchists. They’re a reminder that anarchists are not edgy Democrats, and if that idea is offensive, you can unsubscribe and block !anarchism and !notvoting@slrpnk.net. Other people existing who don’t share your politics and have their own spaces should not be so threatening to someone with confidence in their own ideology.
Do you have an example of this? Which community?
Ask this guy, I think he can guess at least one of them. Remember to tell him anarchist admins are the real authoritarians because we support our community moderators, and that we’re bad for letting people into our space to use it for political propaganda, because they are making a pretty thin and implausible claim to being on our team.
I wasn’t asking that as a sarcastic question. It was serious.
I don’t think there are communities on Slrpnk that are brimming with Democratic propaganda. There’s some kind of weird backwards-ism going on here, where Mambabasa constantly spamming stuff about Harris and the Democrats counts as some kind of innocent anarchism, and I’m dogpiling partisan propaganda on him when I say that actually it sounds pretty clear to me that Greta Thunberg is saying Trump and specifically Trump is a terrible threat. I think you’re exaggerating events into this caricature, and then telling me straight-faced that the caricature is what’s going on. But, maybe not. Maybe I’m wrong. So, I asked about the Democratic propaganda on Slrpnk that you’re saying is happening.
I think the bulk of Lemmy, anarchist and not, sees it the same way I do here. You can look up and down in these comments if you want. You and the other Slrpnk admins are not required to see it the same, of course, or to give me a serious response. You can say whatever you like. But it was a serious question.
I haven’t seen evidence of a strong majority being fine with the decision.
Among slrpnk commenters on this post I believe the split was 3-3, or possibly 3-2-1.
Taking into account the comments from dbzer0 folks, it goes to 5-5 or 5-4-1.
Self-proclaimed anarchists from other instances represent, by my accounting, 1 more “for” and 4 more “against.”
The other comments from users who may or may not identify as anarchists appear to slant towards against by about the same margin.
It could be that one or both of us carries a bias in how we perceive support that aligns with what we already believe. I tried to be cognizant of that when I scrolled through to count, but I’m fallible. If I’ve misrepresented, it wasn’t on purpose. That said, I think at best there’s a somewhat even split. I don’t think you can claim that as “most folks” being fine with the actions taken.
Additionally, the way the mod conducted themselves in these comments doesn’t inspire much confidence that they moderated in good faith