Genuinely curious, because this isn’t my area of expertise, but how do you design a server to be “better” if it has to trust data from a remote client?
Example, if the client is compromised - because as they’ve said, they have no way to “attest” that the kernel is not compromised - how would the server know any better?
If my Apex client tells the server I got a perfect headshot, how would the server know I didn’t fake the data? Is there a real answer to this problem or are we just wishing they come up with an impossible solution?
My general understanding is that EA is 100% correct. Now, on the other hand, maybe the should just limit plays between Linux <-> Linux so people can at least still enjoy the game (I’m moving to Linux soon so I’ll basically no longer be able to play the game, which is, as my primary gaming addiction, a huge loss I’m willing to take).
There’s compromises EA could take, but I think the Linux market share is just too small for them to care to spend any resources - even though they’re raking in billions (~$3.4 Billion) and could spare a few resources to find a good middle ground. Capitalism at it’s finest.
It is exactly that simple. You already have to account for latency because everyone but one player (who you also can’t trust no matter how many rootkits you install) is not the server. Having a proper server doesn’t change that in any way.
Client side validation cannot possibly provide any actual security, but even if that wasn’t the case and it was actually flawless, it would still be unconditionally unacceptable for a game to ever have kernel level access.
Client side validation cannot possibly provide any actual security
Except it already does.
but even if that wasn’t the case and it was actually flawless
Nobody is claiming its flawless. This is the same anti-seat belt, anti-air bag, anti-mask, anti-vax argument. It “DoEsn’T WoRk iN eVeRy CaSe!” - that was never the intent. It’s about harm reduction.
it would still be unconditionally unacceptable for a game to ever have kernel level access.
Anyone with a technical background would agree with you, as do I, but the reality is anti-cheat software with kernel level access already exists and it works specifically because it has kernel level access.
No, it doesn’t. Cheating is still incredibly common on games that install malware. If people care enough to cheat, they will cheat whether you have kernel access or not. It doesn’t make a dent. They use it for the exact same reason they use DRM. Because they can.
It also can’t possibly theoretically “reduce harm” when every single installation on every individual computer is many orders of magnitude more harm than all cheating in every game ever made.
No, it doesn’t. Cheating is still incredibly common on games that install malware
I never claimed it’s flawless or that it works in all cases. Think of it like antivirus software. Does it catch every and any malware that has and will ever exist? No. Does it still work to minimize all kinds of “bad shit” for normal end users? Yes.
If people care enough to cheat, they will cheat whether you have kernel access or not.
Lets rephrase that: If people care enough to commit crimes, they will commit crimes whether you have cops in your city or not - Your statements logical conclusion would be to get rid of police and crime investigators. Does that sound reasonable? It shouldn’t, and it doesn’t make sense against anti-cheat software for the exact same reason.
They use it for the exact same reason they use DRM. Because they can.
They use it because it solves a real-world problem that’s unsolvable by other means. There’s no real alternative because you have to trust the end-user, who, although may not be very likely to cheat, makes it extremely easy for a bad person to spoil the fun for everyone else.
I would love to live in a fantasy world where we don’t need cops, a government, rules, regulations, and anti-cheat software, but there are bad apples that will spoil the fun for everyone.
It also can’t possibly theoretically “reduce harm” when every single installation on every individual computer is many orders of magnitude more harm than all cheating in every game ever made.
I mean “reduce harm” in the strict sense of spoiling the fun in gaming. vulnerabilities happen with all software, this isn’t unique to anti-cheat.
It doesn’t meaningfully impact the rate of cheating at all. You’re making the deluded assumption that it does something despite a complete absence of evidence to support it. It’s a complete fabrication with no connection in any way to the real world.
It is not security. It does not in any way resemble security. It’s pure theater that catastrophically compromises the actual security of everything it touches.
Yes, people can still cheat with a camera and manipulating inputs. There will never be a way around that.
But that’s entirely unchanged by adding malware, that, even if it could theoretically work, should be a literal crime with serious jail time attached. Client side validation is never security and cannot resemble security.
There are lots of options such that you can tune your false positive/negative rate. 🤷♂️ Tons of ways you can structure this depending on your game’s tech.
No options that resemble legitimate or evidence based in any way.
If a computer has the exact same input and output tools as a human, you cannot possibly do better than guessing. It is a literal certainty that you will ban legitimate players doing nothing wrong for being too good if you try, and it’s unconditionally not acceptable to do so.
If my Apex client tells the server I got a perfect headshot, how would the server know I didn’t fake the data?
Any game that works like that is fundamentally flawed and AC is nothing but an attempt at a cheap bandaid at best.
The client should be doing nothing but rendering and sending player actions to the server and the server should be managing the game state as well as running its checks on those actions. And when one client sends actuons that are weird and doesn’t line up with it’s internal game state it should kick the client immediately always deferring to what ITS game state is telling it, not the client.
The cheat in this case would send legitimate actions. Like maybe you, the human, would have missed the headshot, but your cheat corrected to the inputs that would have landed one.
And when one client sends actuons that are weird and doesn’t line up with it’s internal game state
What if my hacked client sends actions that are not weird, completely plausible, but didn’t happen and instead were faked? E.g. I take a headshot and would have missed, but my client sends data that I actually shot them dead center, because I wasn’t completely off? How would the server know it wasn’t me?
Genuinely curious, because this isn’t my area of expertise, but how do you design a server to be “better” if it has to trust data from a remote client?
Check the data on the server (“oh no, incredibly expensive”). Don’t give any data to the client it doesn’t need, like enemies around the corner (“oh no, now my game is so very laggy because caching and future position assumption just became impossible”)
Example, if the client is compromised - because as they’ve said, they have no way to “attest” that the kernel is not compromised - how would the server know any better?
Now the server doesn’t need to care. There’s input? Validate and use it.
If my Apex client tells the server I got a perfect headshot, how would the server know I didn’t fake the data? Is there a real answer to this problem or are we just wishing they come up with an impossible solution?
Now the client can go pound sand. Server decides if it’s a headshot. Client only sends coordinates of origin and target. Lag? Sucks to be you, with or without cheat.
My general understanding is that EA is 100% correct. Now, on the other hand, maybe the should just limit plays between Linux <-> Linux so people can at least still enjoy the game
That would only create more work for the developers, all for the defacto expulsion of Linux users (Way less players at all times). The best course of action here would be the actual expulsion of Linux users. Also, EA is at most 25% correct. (Not a rational argument, I just very much dislike them)
(I’m moving to Linux soon so I’ll basically no longer be able to play the game, which is, as my primary gaming addiction, a huge loss I’m willing to take).
Damn, sorry to hear that. It’s always bad to leave something one knows because something’s become unbearable. I wish you best of luck on your journey! (I’m assuming a lot, but why else would you switch despite your choice of use of free time?)
There’s compromises EA could take, but I think the Linux market share is just too small for them to care to spend any resources - even though they’re raking in billions (~$3.4 Billion) and could spare a few resources to find a good middle ground. Capitalism at it’s finest.
On the other hand: I quite like it. It forces them to keep their grubby little hands from my kernel.
I do not like anything anti cheat. But I also don’t really like cheaters, especially in online games, so anti cheat could be tolerated. The only thing is: nothing trumps my systems integrity. Definitely not online player satisfaction.
The server already determines if a shot’s valid or not though. Once a client receives information on where the enemy is at, then the client can send message to the server that they are shooting exactly at that location.
Don’t give any data to the client it doesn’t need, like enemies around the corner
Enemies around the corner still make noise/peek/shoot/etc. You can’t just hide data of nearby enemies from the client because their actions still have in-game consequences that need to be reproduced across all active/nearby players.
Now the server doesn’t need to care. There’s input? Validate and use it.
How do you validate data that is within the realm of possibilities? if my head shot would have been 1 pixel too far to the left to hit and my hacked client sends it 1 pixel to the right so it makes a hit, how does the server know this isn’t fake?
Server decides if it’s a headshot.
If my fake data doesn’t look out of the ordinary i’m still hacking the system and tricking the server-side validation.
Client only sends coordinates of origin and target. Lag? Sucks to be you, with or without cheat.
The math to send the perfect headshot isn’t difficult if you know where you are, where the enemy is and you can only send origin & target coords, I’m not sure this solves anything.
That would only create more work for the developers, all for the defacto expulsion of Linux users (Way less players at all times). The best course of action here would be the actual expulsion of Linux users. Also, EA is at most 25% correct. (Not a rational argument, I just very much dislike them)
Agree with you 100%.
Damn, sorry to hear that. It’s always bad to leave something one knows because something’s become unbearable. I wish you best of luck on your journey! (I’m assuming a lot, but why else would you switch despite your choice of use of free time?)
Thanks! I’m a huge open source supporter and only ever installed Windows on my desktop to play games, still using Linux on my laptops. Thanks to Valve, Proton, and Wine, I’ll be able to go back to Linux and maybe discover some new games.
On the other hand: I quite like it. It forces them to keep their grubby little hands from my kernel.
I do not like anything anti cheat. But I also don’t really like cheaters, especially in online games, so anti cheat could be tolerated. The only thing is: nothing trumps my systems integrity. Definitely not online player satisfaction.
Kinda agree with you on this. Although I have my desktop as a strict “gaming” machine, I wouldn’t mine an EA rootkit on my Desktop Linux system if all I did on it was game. But yes, they can keep their hands off my kernel on my “work” devices.
The fact that this thoughtful comment was downvoted, while the computer illiterate reply was upvoted, speaks to the hive mind on this subreddit. We all detest EA, but this guy has a legitimate point.
But according to that article it’s still trusting the client. It’s just validating that the action was within the realm of possibilities, not that it wasn’t faked.
From the article (highlighting from me):
Here’s how it works:
When you shoot, client sends this event to the server with full information: the exact timestamp of your shot, and the exact aim of the weapon.
The article continues to state:
The enemy may be the only one not entirely happy. If they were standing still when he got shot, it’s their fault, right? If they were moving… wow, you’re a really awesome sniper.
But what if they were in an open position, got behind a wall, and then got shot, a fraction of a second later, when they thought they were safe?
Well, that can happen. That’s the tradeoff you make. Because you shoot at him in the past, they may still be shot up to a few milliseconds after they took cover.
What’s stated above already happens in Apex, telling us that they already do everything this article is talking about. This article mentions nothing new and doesn’t solve the problem of clients sending fake data that is within the realm of possibilities - e.g. a headshot when you were actually off by a bit.
Keeping untrusted clients in their own ecosystem is an interesting idea, and would let people access the game without affecting anyone in the “trusted” chain, but you will all be lumped in with the obvious cheaters with blatant speed/flying/aiming bots.
If you were playing without cheats on Linux, I’d imagine you’d stop soon after.
The best idea would be to let people run their own servers and then allow or IP ban cheaters themselves, but I guess with everything needing to make money from skins and paints or whatever the fuck Apex sells, that’s out of the question and has been since about the Xbox 360 era.
They should just use the same approach big minecraft servers use, the game itself has no anticheat, but the server makes sure the data it’s getting from the client makes sense and kicks clients sending weird data. Doing any checks client side will always be insecure and a nuisance to players
I see you all over this thread and I want to share something you might find interesting.
You keep mentioning the server can’t handle the anti cheat because it needs to trust client data. Here’s an interesting thought: how is client anti cheat supposed to work when it needs to trust input data?
Look up direct memory access cheats. TL;DR Two computers are hooked up such that PC 1 runs the game, PC 2 reads memory from PC 1, and can then output keyboard/mouse inputs, as well as wallhacks/esp. How is the client side anti cheat supposed to know that the keyboard and mouse inputs are legitimate? How is the client side anti cheat to know wallhacks are being used when they are being rendered on an entirely different machine?
I completely agree with you, there’s always ways to bypass the system. But at the end of the day its about raising the barrier to entry for everyone to be hacking. In the example you’re giving, someone who wants to hack the system now needs to configure to separate systems to work AND have the technical skills to set it up. Without any local anti-cheat software, all someone needs to do is run software written by one person and run by thousands.
My overall point is that the current anti-cheat systems do work, not in every case, just like spam or antivirus software, but raise the barrier to entry so that you see less hackers while gaming vs without.
Right, but the server is still receiving data from the client. If the client sends a plausible head shot, even though it was actually a miss, how would the server know? You still need client-side “police”, AKA anti-cheat software to mitigate a significant type of software-based hacks.
Now that I’ve typed it out, cops are actually a great analogy to anti-cheat software. Cops play the exact same role. Nobody wants them around until a crime has been committed. Cops/anti-cheat software don’t catch everyone, but the threat of being caught mitigates some crime/hacks, and for the cases where criminals/hackers are caught, society/gamers are better off for it.
In closing ACAB - I completely understand why we don’t want anti-cheat software on our computers, but there really is no better way; or if there is, I still haven’t heard it.
Genuinely curious, because this isn’t my area of expertise, but how do you design a server to be “better” if it has to trust data from a remote client?
Example, if the client is compromised - because as they’ve said, they have no way to “attest” that the kernel is not compromised - how would the server know any better?
If my Apex client tells the server I got a perfect headshot, how would the server know I didn’t fake the data? Is there a real answer to this problem or are we just wishing they come up with an impossible solution?
My general understanding is that EA is 100% correct. Now, on the other hand, maybe the should just limit plays between Linux <-> Linux so people can at least still enjoy the game (I’m moving to Linux soon so I’ll basically no longer be able to play the game, which is, as my primary gaming addiction, a huge loss I’m willing to take).
There’s compromises EA could take, but I think the Linux market share is just too small for them to care to spend any resources - even though they’re raking in billions (~$3.4 Billion) and could spare a few resources to find a good middle ground. Capitalism at it’s finest.
Your core premise is broken. Relying on trusting anything from a remote client cannot possibly result in a fair game.
It’s not that simple. Especially not for real time shooters, latency is a killer.
It is exactly that simple. You already have to account for latency because everyone but one player (who you also can’t trust no matter how many rootkits you install) is not the server. Having a proper server doesn’t change that in any way.
Client side validation cannot possibly provide any actual security, but even if that wasn’t the case and it was actually flawless, it would still be unconditionally unacceptable for a game to ever have kernel level access.
Except it already does.
Nobody is claiming its flawless. This is the same anti-seat belt, anti-air bag, anti-mask, anti-vax argument. It “DoEsn’T WoRk iN eVeRy CaSe!” - that was never the intent. It’s about harm reduction.
Anyone with a technical background would agree with you, as do I, but the reality is anti-cheat software with kernel level access already exists and it works specifically because it has kernel level access.
No, it doesn’t. Cheating is still incredibly common on games that install malware. If people care enough to cheat, they will cheat whether you have kernel access or not. It doesn’t make a dent. They use it for the exact same reason they use DRM. Because they can.
It also can’t possibly theoretically “reduce harm” when every single installation on every individual computer is many orders of magnitude more harm than all cheating in every game ever made.
I never claimed it’s flawless or that it works in all cases. Think of it like antivirus software. Does it catch every and any malware that has and will ever exist? No. Does it still work to minimize all kinds of “bad shit” for normal end users? Yes.
Lets rephrase that: If people care enough to commit crimes, they will commit crimes whether you have cops in your city or not - Your statements logical conclusion would be to get rid of police and crime investigators. Does that sound reasonable? It shouldn’t, and it doesn’t make sense against anti-cheat software for the exact same reason.
They use it because it solves a real-world problem that’s unsolvable by other means. There’s no real alternative because you have to trust the end-user, who, although may not be very likely to cheat, makes it extremely easy for a bad person to spoil the fun for everyone else.
I would love to live in a fantasy world where we don’t need cops, a government, rules, regulations, and anti-cheat software, but there are bad apples that will spoil the fun for everyone.
I mean “reduce harm” in the strict sense of spoiling the fun in gaming. vulnerabilities happen with all software, this isn’t unique to anti-cheat.
It doesn’t meaningfully impact the rate of cheating at all. You’re making the deluded assumption that it does something despite a complete absence of evidence to support it. It’s a complete fabrication with no connection in any way to the real world.
It is not security. It does not in any way resemble security. It’s pure theater that catastrophically compromises the actual security of everything it touches.
So EA and every other anti-cheat software is paying developers to make software that does nothing? I don’t follow.
Too bad the server at least needs the player input data.
Yes, people can still cheat with a camera and manipulating inputs. There will never be a way around that.
But that’s entirely unchanged by adding malware, that, even if it could theoretically work, should be a literal crime with serious jail time attached. Client side validation is never security and cannot resemble security.
There are ways to detect and stop that, but they can and should happen on the server, not on the client.
Only if you’re OK banning real people.
There are lots of options such that you can tune your false positive/negative rate. 🤷♂️ Tons of ways you can structure this depending on your game’s tech.
No options that resemble legitimate or evidence based in any way.
If a computer has the exact same input and output tools as a human, you cannot possibly do better than guessing. It is a literal certainty that you will ban legitimate players doing nothing wrong for being too good if you try, and it’s unconditionally not acceptable to do so.
Client side anti-cheat faces similar issues, and there unlike your server you don’t control the hardware.
Any game that works like that is fundamentally flawed and AC is nothing but an attempt at a cheap bandaid at best.
The client should be doing nothing but rendering and sending player actions to the server and the server should be managing the game state as well as running its checks on those actions. And when one client sends actuons that are weird and doesn’t line up with it’s internal game state it should kick the client immediately always deferring to what ITS game state is telling it, not the client.
The cheat in this case would send legitimate actions. Like maybe you, the human, would have missed the headshot, but your cheat corrected to the inputs that would have landed one.
What if my hacked client sends actions that are not weird, completely plausible, but didn’t happen and instead were faked? E.g. I take a headshot and would have missed, but my client sends data that I actually shot them dead center, because I wasn’t completely off? How would the server know it wasn’t me?
Check the data on the server (“oh no, incredibly expensive”). Don’t give any data to the client it doesn’t need, like enemies around the corner (“oh no, now my game is so very laggy because caching and future position assumption just became impossible”)
Now the server doesn’t need to care. There’s input? Validate and use it.
Now the client can go pound sand. Server decides if it’s a headshot. Client only sends coordinates of origin and target. Lag? Sucks to be you, with or without cheat.
That would only create more work for the developers, all for the defacto expulsion of Linux users (Way less players at all times). The best course of action here would be the actual expulsion of Linux users. Also, EA is at most 25% correct. (Not a rational argument, I just very much dislike them)
Damn, sorry to hear that. It’s always bad to leave something one knows because something’s become unbearable. I wish you best of luck on your journey! (I’m assuming a lot, but why else would you switch despite your choice of use of free time?)
On the other hand: I quite like it. It forces them to keep their grubby little hands from my kernel.
I do not like anything anti cheat. But I also don’t really like cheaters, especially in online games, so anti cheat could be tolerated. The only thing is: nothing trumps my systems integrity. Definitely not online player satisfaction.
The server already determines if a shot’s valid or not though. Once a client receives information on where the enemy is at, then the client can send message to the server that they are shooting exactly at that location.
Well, the server acts mostly as a single source of truth. The clients are the ones registering the shot, the server confirms or denies it.
My approach would be prohibitedly expensive, as I suggested the registration would also happen on the server. It would also result in bigger lags
I believe this already happens to some degree.
Enemies around the corner still make noise/peek/shoot/etc. You can’t just hide data of nearby enemies from the client because their actions still have in-game consequences that need to be reproduced across all active/nearby players.
How do you validate data that is within the realm of possibilities? if my head shot would have been 1 pixel too far to the left to hit and my hacked client sends it 1 pixel to the right so it makes a hit, how does the server know this isn’t fake?
If my fake data doesn’t look out of the ordinary i’m still hacking the system and tricking the server-side validation.
The math to send the perfect headshot isn’t difficult if you know where you are, where the enemy is and you can only send origin & target coords, I’m not sure this solves anything.
Agree with you 100%.
Thanks! I’m a huge open source supporter and only ever installed Windows on my desktop to play games, still using Linux on my laptops. Thanks to Valve, Proton, and Wine, I’ll be able to go back to Linux and maybe discover some new games.
I do not like anything anti cheat. But I also don’t really like cheaters, especially in online games, so anti cheat could be tolerated. The only thing is: nothing trumps my systems integrity. Definitely not online player satisfaction.
Kinda agree with you on this. Although I have my desktop as a strict “gaming” machine, I wouldn’t mine an EA rootkit on my Desktop Linux system if all I did on it was game. But yes, they can keep their hands off my kernel on my “work” devices.
The fact that this thoughtful comment was downvoted, while the computer illiterate reply was upvoted, speaks to the hive mind on this
subreddit. We all detest EA, but this guy has a legitimate point.“In this subreddit”
Yeah I have a hell of a time remembering what Lemmy things are called as well.
Damn, what are they called?
Communities or “comms”. Reddit would be quick to legal action if someone started using their trademarks.
I think they’re supposed to be magazines, but I’ve been saying subs for.like 12 years. Mags, I guess.
Maybe çubs?
Communities. Magazines is what kbin calls them though.
That makes a lot more sense. I was wondering why c/ stood for magazine.
Sublemmys
Slemmies?
Because it doesn’t have to.
But according to that article it’s still trusting the client. It’s just validating that the action was within the realm of possibilities, not that it wasn’t faked.
From the article (highlighting from me):
The article continues to state:
But what if they were in an open position, got behind a wall, and then got shot, a fraction of a second later, when they thought they were safe?
What’s stated above already happens in Apex, telling us that they already do everything this article is talking about. This article mentions nothing new and doesn’t solve the problem of clients sending fake data that is within the realm of possibilities - e.g. a headshot when you were actually off by a bit.
The question was about client trust, which the server doesn’t. If the shot wasn’t possible, it’s not valid and did not happen.
Keeping untrusted clients in their own ecosystem is an interesting idea, and would let people access the game without affecting anyone in the “trusted” chain, but you will all be lumped in with the obvious cheaters with blatant speed/flying/aiming bots.
If you were playing without cheats on Linux, I’d imagine you’d stop soon after.
The best idea would be to let people run their own servers and then allow or IP ban cheaters themselves, but I guess with everything needing to make money from skins and paints or whatever the fuck Apex sells, that’s out of the question and has been since about the Xbox 360 era.
Yeah it didn’t occur to me that I’d be relegated to playing with cheaters until after I posted. Best to just let the game go.
They should just use the same approach big minecraft servers use, the game itself has no anticheat, but the server makes sure the data it’s getting from the client makes sense and kicks clients sending weird data. Doing any checks client side will always be insecure and a nuisance to players
Yeah there’s no Minecraft cheats /s
I see you all over this thread and I want to share something you might find interesting.
You keep mentioning the server can’t handle the anti cheat because it needs to trust client data. Here’s an interesting thought: how is client anti cheat supposed to work when it needs to trust input data?
Look up direct memory access cheats. TL;DR Two computers are hooked up such that PC 1 runs the game, PC 2 reads memory from PC 1, and can then output keyboard/mouse inputs, as well as wallhacks/esp. How is the client side anti cheat supposed to know that the keyboard and mouse inputs are legitimate? How is the client side anti cheat to know wallhacks are being used when they are being rendered on an entirely different machine?
I completely agree with you, there’s always ways to bypass the system. But at the end of the day its about raising the barrier to entry for everyone to be hacking. In the example you’re giving, someone who wants to hack the system now needs to configure to separate systems to work AND have the technical skills to set it up. Without any local anti-cheat software, all someone needs to do is run software written by one person and run by thousands.
My overall point is that the current anti-cheat systems do work, not in every case, just like spam or antivirus software, but raise the barrier to entry so that you see less hackers while gaming vs without.
Because the actual calculations aren’t done by the client but the server, or they should be
Right, but the server is still receiving data from the client. If the client sends a plausible head shot, even though it was actually a miss, how would the server know? You still need client-side “police”, AKA anti-cheat software to mitigate a significant type of software-based hacks.
Now that I’ve typed it out, cops are actually a great analogy to anti-cheat software. Cops play the exact same role. Nobody wants them around until a crime has been committed. Cops/anti-cheat software don’t catch everyone, but the threat of being caught mitigates some crime/hacks, and for the cases where criminals/hackers are caught, society/gamers are better off for it.
In closing ACAB - I completely understand why we don’t want anti-cheat software on our computers, but there really is no better way; or if there is, I still haven’t heard it.
By minimising the trusted data exchanged and checking it against server side data.
They already do this, so this doesn’t solve the problem.