This is the most horrible way to convince people to vote with you. I, personally, would tell you to go fuck yourself if I weren’t already voting for Harris. Please stop that. You need to convince people why they should vote for your candidate by showing them the difference, not this “or else” bullshit. and if they are not convinced, you let it go. People are free with their damn votes.
“Or else” isn’t bullshit when it comes from the perspective of anyone who actually has something to lose if Trump wins.
Everyone who is on the fence or doesn’t feel like they need to vote are just speaking from positions of privilege because they don’t personally have as much on the line. I just find it hard to sympathize with that perspective.
But the same thing can be said for the people ignoring the faults of Kamala…
Especially when they’re just begging for an end of genocide, or fracking destroying their communities, or any other of multitude issues where Kamala and Trump have the same policies even though the majority of the Dem voting base disagrees with them.
It seems odd to act like the “high road” is the one where genocide is ok, when we could just have someone who was anti-genocide…
There’s fall less people willing to hold their noses to vote for genocide and fracking than the other way around. And very few people who are only voting for Kamala because her border, genocide, and fracking policies are the same as Trump’s.
The people that want that are still voting trump, if they told you that it would change your mind…
I hate to break it to you, but they lie about this shit all the time so even if they lose they win.
I’m sorry, how does Trump improve any of the issues you describe?
He doesn’t, neither does Kamala…
So why get mad at someone who’s line isnt the same place as yours?
You can tell at them to throw their morals out the window, or unite with them and demand just a little more than the bare minimum you would accept
Why is no one allowed to ask for anything more than your bare minimum? And why would you risk trump to not help get more?
I don’t logically understand your position, I understand what it is, just not why it’s your position.
Can you elaborate on how this:
just speaking from positions of privilege because they don’t personally have as much on the line. I just find it hard to sympathize with that perspective.
Isn’t applicable to you wanting people to ignore genocide? In some cases where it’s literally their close family over there as the victims?
He doesn’t, neither does Kamala…
Then why even have this argument?
How about we swing this double edged sword the other way? Why try to alienate women who lost their rights with the overturning of Roe v. Wade because of Trump’s supreme court appointments? Or what about every LGBTQ+ person in the US who is trapped at the edge of their seats because members of the supreme court have stated they’d like to revisit Obergefell v. Hodges, too?
How about all of the kids who are shot to death at school because of unchecked gun proliferation that Trump’s party has blocked attempts to regulate? Or people who are drowning to death in medical and student debt that Trump blocked attempts to solve, while he just has a “concept of a plan” that no one is able to describe?
Or maybe we can look at his previous presidency, when his hateful rhetoric caused sharp rises in hate speech and crimes committed against people of color and the socially vulnerable? The rise in white supremacist/domestic terrorist groups? The election denialism that resulted in January 6? The complete and utter failure to properly manage the Covid-19 pandemic that led to the preventable deaths of millions?
The threat of fascism literally looming over our heads and being told none of that matters because Kamala is no different from Trump in my specific hand-picked list of issues, that’s what I take issue with.
If someone is not willing to do the bare minimum to keep him out of power because they don’t see a reason to vote for Kamala, I have a long list of less-kind words I’d love to say if I didn’t believe in trying to maintain civility online.
Then why even have this argument?
Because if instead of spending time and effort trying to convince voters to lower their morals…
We’d be better off uniting to hold Kamala to a higher standard, because then we’d stop trump, and get more of what we want.
I’m not sure what’s confusing about this.
Goodness you are a speed reader, replying within 2 minutes and acknowledging the very first sentence I wrote.
I am literally holding Kamala to a higher standard. Everything I wrote is the standard that anyone with half a braincell and respect for their fellow man should understand. Anyone who does not is not worth being pandered to.
No one is ignoring her faults. She is just less flawed then the alternative. People need to learn how to vote. It is literally the only zero sum game that matters.
It’s actually sad that you would talk about privilege. That may apply to some people. What if for example your cousin is living in Palestine? What then? What privilege do you have? If you vote for Harris, you’re guaranteed more of the same.
The privilege that you have is that you don’t have family members dying from policies that Harris endorses. And I think Trump would be even worse, so there’s a practical argument that people should vote for Harris anyway, but that’s a tough sell if it’s your immediate family or your best friends who are in the literal crosshairs.
I’m just sorry to say, but the situation in Palestine is not up for vote right now. This election will not change that outcome, short of keeping the “finish the job” candidate out of office while maybe the more reasonable of the two can eventually decide to do the right thing.
If none of the “other stuff” that is actually up for vote matters to people, though, then those people aren’t allies and apparently don’t care if they end up living under a christofascist regime that won’t need elections anymore.
I disagree. I think each voter is going to choose what the relevant issues are and then they’re going to vote. You can try to tell us what issues matter, but people are going to make up their own mind.
Also, it’s quite obvious that who becomes the next president does have an impact on what happens in Palestine.
Everyone who is on the fence or doesn’t feel like they need to vote are just speaking from positions of privilege because they don’t personally have as much on the line. I just find it hard to sympathize with that perspective.
I agree with your first sentence, but honestly your second sentence doesn’t matter. No one has the right or ethical high ground to command or threaten another person to vote the way they want, regardless of whether they sympathize with that person’s position.
Actual Trump voters, many of whom are voting against their own best interests as well as yours and mine, have the right to make their uninformed/hateful/self-harming/selfish (pick one or more as applicable) vote, and so do folks whose vote we disagree with for other reasons.
We all think our reasons for voting the way we are (including abstaining) are valid, and at the level of the voting booth it seems to me that we have to respect everyone else’s as valid even when we don’t feel they are.
If we do not do so, I don’t see how that doesn’t lead to either:
a) commanding another to vote as you desire
or
b) thought policing people
I find either of those to be unacceptable for any purpose.
My perspective is that no one has the right to infringe on the rights of others, and to me any act that facilitates Trump entering the white house creates a greater infringement on human rights than any vote that facilitates Harris.
These are things that shouldn’t even need to be decided by an election, they should just be codified and not up for vote at all, but here we are.
Persuade all you want.
Threatening/intimidating/commanding people to vote in a particular way is not OK though. It’s not something where the end justifies the means, and it’s a pandora’s box that should not be opened. OP would be rightly called a threat if a conservative version of it was posted. It’s akin to this, minus the power dynamic.
And when I am being threatened myself by their stance?
Hey if you are convinced by the two-wrongs-make-a-right approach, that’s your business not mine.
Stovetop, no one comes here to hear your annoying yappy petulance, and you havent changed a single persons mind, just annoyed everyone who reads this thread. You are the reason the block user button exists.
Then block me instead of whining about it.
“Or else” isnt bullshit
then pressure Kamala to change that one far far right wing policy the progressives cant live with and lets win this thing.
Convincing people to vote isnt a goal. Liberals, specifically US liberals have this compulsion to fingerwag at anyone who doesnt listen to their self important wankery. Irregardless of the repeated lies, policy failures, lies, can kicking, goal post moving, lies, etc.
Every election is “This is the most important election of our lives” and “Now is not the time” and “When we win we can do [insert obvious thing that desperately needs to happen]”
People buy the lies, vote for their corporate appointed vanguard candidate. Then realize they were lied to. That “The Right Time” was never going to happen. They get jaded or just check completely out of politics after the Xth election of being lied to. And its always on those people to “Save Democracy” every election. The lies and shit policies are entirely blameless. Its always the fault of those who question.
I for instance according to liberals am an EVIL Trump voter. Even though I haven’t voted since 2016 and wont vote until dems make universal healthcare happen. That’s my singular demand currently. But its a hard line. A team of wild horses couldn’t drag me to the polls until that happens. Now I will never vote for republicans. They’re evil. Period. They’re a known quantity. They will only ever do the worst possible thing. List of options, they will 100% choose the one that harms the greatest number of people, their own included. I demand the Democrats be better, which makes me a heinous villain of the highest order.
I like your view on this. This is basically how I do and look at it, but this time I had to make an exception, because Trump is actually horrible and I can’t just sit it out even though
tI hate the Democrats just as much as the Republicans. This time, I will have to fall for this fear mongering because, again, Trump is horrible and can’t be elected again. Next election when he fucks off, I’m sitting out until my demands are met.Good on you. That tiniest expression of your own individual agency makes all the difference in the world. Ultimately we on an individual level are powerless in this system. Utterly so. That you can claw back even that much choice is a wonderful thing.
people are free with their damn votes
Until they don’t have the right to vote anymore because they threw it away in the final election
Abstaining or voting 3rd party to “make Dems listen” doesn’t work. If anyone thinks they can play Mexican Standoff, you can’t because the Dems have an out: the center voter. Every time they lose, they go to the center to find voters.
And remember they need all 3 of presidency, house of representatives, and senate to pass pretty much anything. If they don’t have all 3 they will go to the center to find voters. Some people call this rachet effect, but really they’re looking for voters. Want them to stop ‘racheting’? Then give them consistent and overwhelming victories.
And remember they need all 3 of presidency, house of representatives, and senate to pass pretty much anything
The odds of Democrats keeping the Senate seem dismal. So it sounds like we’re giving the party license to do nothing for another two years
I like how you twist that to “party license”. If the
peoplevoters vote that way, that is the will of thepeoplevoters. Don’t like it? Vote. For Dems. (Though the GOP bear some responsibility being obstructionist pos.)If the
peoplevoters vote that way, that is the will of thepeoplevoters.Sorry 50M Californians, but 40k West Virginians decided to go a different way. Guess this means no civil rights for another two years.
This is aimed at those people that think not voting or voting 3rd party is effective to “make Dems listen”. It is not. Voters have a say.
Dems are a coalition. Centrists are not powerful enough within that coalition to act like utterly unaccountable god-kings. If that needs to be beaten into them then so be it.
Lol I assume you mean that you (the leftist) will beat some message into the Dems. Dude, you will not win this Mexican Standoff because the Dems have an out: The center voter. Who, wait for it, actually shows up.
Alll your “beating” is beating yourself when you hand the overton window over to the GOP. It’s the biggest self own in history.
We’ll see wont we. If progressives stay strong and dont vote early, I’d bet real money Harris caves on the weapons shipments.
So give up? Yea, it fucking sucks and is unfair as hell but voting is too easy to claim a lack motivation. It’s not a sustained effort, it’s something happens incredibly rarely and you can definitely handle. You can even mail that shit in in most places.
If you vote then it will be hard for the democrats to win and start shifting your countries policies to leftward(even if it’s an inch at a time). If you don’t vote then it will be impossible to do it.
So give up?
If your full effort begins and ends with election season, you’ve already given up.
Who said that? Oh right, nobody. Fuck, bro, get it together.
So vote for them regardless and then they will listen?
Dems need all 3 (presidency, house of reps, Senate) to do pretty much anything. They’ve had that for [drumroll please] 4 out of the last 24 years. Or 6 of the last 32 years. Or 6 of the last 44 fucking years.
They’ve had that for [drumroll please] 4 out of the last 24 years
It was significantly shorter than that when you consider Senate control to be 60, which is what’s needed to bypass the fillibuster.
Supermajority was 4 months, out of the last 44 years. But whenever I mention that people think I’m fixated on that for some reason.
*Oh downvoted already. Some people really don’t like hearing this.
You shouldn’t cry about fake internet points
I’m not crying, I’m laughing how certain people downvote because they don’t like hearing facts.
Somehow the terminally online tankies will still blame Democrats for that, too.
They honored the fillibuster by choice. They didnt have to.
They never had 51 votes to repeal the fillibuster. Sinema and Manchin both refused to do so. Neither of which are Democrats anymore. We should elect more Democrats to the Senate that will.
“Biden says eliminating filibuster would “throw the entire Congress into chaos”” https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/joe-biden-town-hall-filibuster/
Dems need all 3 (presidency, house of reps, Senate) to do pretty much anything.
Thats not how politics works buddy. If what you said were true neither the dems or republicans would have passed any bills in the history of the “republic”. Clearly theres also horse trading, and bribery/lobbying you are pretending dont exist in order to make this weak point.
With the obstructionist MAGA caucus in your government that would rather vote no to bipartisan bills because it would give a Democrat a win, barely any bills get passed!
This is an incorrect framing of the situation. You aren’t being asked for a Yes/No vote on Democrats. You are being asked if you prefer Democrats or Republicans. Or for this election, if you prefer Democracy or Fascism. If you vote “no preference”, that does not communicate “I prefer the Democrats, but want them to move further left”, either logically or politically.
There are lots of ways to communicate desired policy changes: letter-writing, primaries (including campaigning/funding for candidates), protests, marches, press, social-media, etc. Voting against your interest is not one of them.
You are being asked if you prefer Democrats or Republicans.
I understand why you’d say this. But you arent trying to understand why people are trying to pressure the dem leadership to be better.
I absolutely understand the anger at the Democratic party. I mention several useful activities to work toward fixing its many failings. The Republican party is strictly worse. Giving equal support to both is counterproductive.
The more elections the far right loses, the more the overton window shifts to the left.
Democrats move further right to get votes from the center but when they win it’ll go left trust me bro
They go to the center when they lose. If they don’t lose, they don’t need to go to the center to find voters. You can see my other comment, they’ve only had all 3 houses for 4 out of the last 24 years.
It’s the left’s fault for not feeling motivated to vote for a center-right party, they’ll become even more right if we don’t vote for them. Progressive candidates are dumb and unpopular.
I honestly don’t know what point you’re trying to get at. In any case, if the left wants to be effective, they have to vote for Dems. Because, again, when they lose they go to the center to find voters.
seems like if the left wants to be effective at this point it has to go far beyond voting
Coalitions dont work if the larger group demands unconditional loyalty or ignores their coalition partners non negotiables. Dems are a coalition of various groups that cant win alone.
actively enabling Genocide is a non negotiable for progressives. And progressives are the difference between dems winning and dems losing.
Centrist dems have been trying to hold the entire party hostage to trumps evil so they can take AIPACS dirty bribes. So now progressives will play the exact same hostage games. We’ll all go over the cliff into the bloody abyss together, or a few simple policy changes can be made. So get those changes done and lets win this election together. Or dont and our country is over. You choose. We already made our choice, and it was really no choice to be made at all. We were never going to lift a finger to enable genocide, its not who we are.
So stay home/throw away your vote, I’m sure they’ll realize their mistake and go to the left any decade now to chase those reliable voters.
they don’t have to, let the whole thing collapse. Fascism never lasts long
And you throw away yours as well. We all lose. Finally a ‘together’ outcome where we are all on the same side and not just taking centrist far-right marching orders like slaves.
you totally ignore that the Dems could simply represent the will of their constituents and not lose, and not need to “look for votes” outside the boundaries of their party. Kamala would be coasting to vicotry if she wasnt supporting Bidens dirty far right war. She is trying hard to not represent the Dems and take a far right stand on this, and thats the root of this problem. Not Progressive voters or the youth.
Seriously? Every time they run a left platform or enact a left policy, they lose. Why do I bother, ciao.
I dont think thats true all the time. as we have seen with Biden, If a dem president is a centrist or far right for a dem, it shifts the entire party and the judiciary rightward. These things have monentum.
So I’d say its not simply the “D” that matters in overton shift. It also sets the topics in the political conversation, and either strengthens the party for the next election or leaves it in shattered and misaligned, like we are now about the unpopular far right wing genocide being pushed by a democratic US presidential administration.
I’ve thought about that recently.
In Germany, the 2 historically biggest parties were SPD (used to be liberal-democrat) and CDU (conservative) and they often were the ones tugging it out while the smaller parties were filling in as coalition partners for one or the other.
Over time, the SPD splintered into several semi-big offshoot parties (Linke, for example) while the CDU stayed as a whole. As a result, CDU is now commonly a favorite for getting most votes in an election.
Is that consistent with politics across the globe? And if, why do liberal or center parties tend to split up more than conservatives?
Counterexample: The European Parliament. IMHO, it looks like 4 right-wing groups, 2 left-wing ones and 2 centrist ones. While the exact positioning could be argued over, the right wing is quite certainly more fragmented than the left is.
I commonly hear the left is a loose coalition of factions (which can split apart), while the right fall in line. I think there are fewer factions on the right, or the factions are not as far apart, so coming together is easier. They also unite in absolute hatred of the left, so will fall in line to slay that beast.
100% agreed regarding coalitions, unfortunately centrists dont seem to know they are in a coalition, or that the party even has a platform. They are so spooked by trump that they will do or say anything to win. Anything.
Centrists on this thread today accuse Progressives of being members of the far right as a ploy to hide the fact that they are the ones pushing far right policies themselves. The centrists are much closer to being republicans anymore than they are to adhering to the traditional democratic party platform. Real Democrats wouldnt risk the drinking water of the whole continent to enable more fracking to big oil company donations. They wouldnt be ok with more school shootings to pander to the NRA donations (especially when the NRA is heavily infiltrated by Russia). And they wouldnt sponsor and enable a far rightwing genocidal war in the middle east – pitting us against the entire rest of the world-- to draw foreign lobbying donations. But American progressives are somehow willing to swallow every bit of that traitorous behavior except one to get over the finish line together, whereas centrists are willing to change not a single damn thing to win, and proceed to whine and threaten.
I live in a red state, and the Democratic Party cannot even get enough warm bodies to ruin for every office here. The Libertarians do better with their candidates than the Democrats.
The obviously the tactical strategy is to vote libertarian
so you think if we vote for them no matter what they do, they will start representing our wishes out of the goodness of their hearts, instead of Aipac’s who come to them with palletloads of cash? Thats… an interesting theory.
First, again, they go to the center when they lose. If they don’t lose, they don’t need to go to the center to find voters.
Second: They will do what
peoplevoters want. That is the whole point, voters. Right now the voters are voting for brutally slow progress. That’s what they get when they give Dems control of all 3 for only 4 years every 24 years. Want faster progress? Then be the voters that vote for faster progress by giving Dems consistent and overwhelming victories.In addition to that, I really think Dems want left policy. They do it when they can despite it costing them elections. According to your logic they would never have done the ACA, or green energy, or EVs, or union empowerment (inb4), or student debt forgiveness, or Chips act, or Pact act, etc, etc. But they did, and it cost them.
Not an American, but yikes does this have “Vote with us… Or else!” vibes.
That’s not to say I support Trump, but I personally don’t think this is the way to convince fence-sitters at all.
you are 100% correct, and I’m glad to see you speaking up here as well.
these kind of posts are disgusting pablum and should be discouraged.
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hahaha, sorry were those typos on purpose or did you do some lazy speech to text there?
It’s very funny.
With any*
But I am keeping as it is rather cheeky
nice, it’s a perfect statement.
i am a
And it’s crazy how normal Americans think this two party system is. It’s like no matter how bad you think your guy is, you have to vote for them because the other side is worse. They always talk about the Labour Party and the Tories as if they think they’re carbon copies of the Democrats and the Republicans and project all their issues into them. They don’t seem to realise there’s like five or six other parties that get a considerable number of votes and have representation in Parliament.
It is normal in FPTP voting systems. If you are going to vote in a national election in a FPTP system. Especially one with our electoral college system. But aren’t looking to explicitly throw your vote away. And you aren’t okay with open fascists winning. When things are this close. Yeah there really is no conscionable choice. Unless you happen to live in a state so safe your vote truly could never matter. Like california. Which even that would be unwise. And is especially at a place for anyone from there to tell people elsewhere how to vote. Since they don’t have the same privilege.
This is dishonest. You put all the onus of losing to trump on progressives and act powerless, when Kamala changing just one policy would guanatee progressive support in large numbers. We’re not buying it. She’s the one advocating a policy that has no place in a democratic party platform, and would be extreme and risky even for a far right republican platform.
Americans have no concept of a coalition.
But it’s literally how it works in the USA with voting. It shouldn’t, but it DOES.
I dont see that it is “working”.
Entirely agree. The people responsible for trump getting votes are the people voting for Trump.
Tactical voting is bullshit of the highest order and the undeniable sign of a fucked up political and voting system, not some sort of political astuteness.
If your voting system can’t allow people to express their true choice, you should throw it away. Yes, that means the majority of voting systems around the world are bad and need to be changed. Getting people to recognise that this is even an issue in the first place is a huge battle.
Only one party has implemented ranked choice while the other has fought against it. That would be a great first start.
That’s not quite the case. Ranked choice voting is resisted by whichever party has a comfortable majority in any given state where it is on the ballot. That’s why it failed when it was on the ballot in Massachusetts during the previous presidential election, because it is a reliably blue state and ranked choice voting would only serve to disrupt that status quo.
I still voted in favor of it, but that’s how it went down.
The really bad part is when you see how they react when people point out Kamala moving to the left would guarantee trump loses…
Moderates have been doing this since Bill Clinton 30+ years ago.
They always claim nothing else matters but beating Republicans, and use any excuse to move the party right. When voters complain the politician doesn’t match the party, we get the above.
They’d rather trump win then progressives, so they point a gun at everyone’s head and say it’s our fault if they have to pull the trigger.
Hell, in 08 with Obama they did pull the trigger. PUMA movement had them voting R instead of Obama. It’s just despite controlling the party, they are a statistically insignificant amount of voters.
A few months ago all these people called us trump supporters for making the (still true) statement that Kamala has a better chance than Biden, and they were all saying Kamala would be a terrible candidate and only Biden can win.
They’ll say anything in the moment with no regards to what just came out of their mouths.
I mean, yeah? Have you looked around? The or else is getting pretty bad.
Also I want to keep adding it’s not just Trump, he’s just a pawn. This is Republicans, not Trump. If row did anything hopefully it opened up some eyes to realize they have been on message for a long damn time. Dems should take note.
How else would you propose that the Overton Window shift to the left?
The American neoliberal experiment started in 1992 when Bill Clinton was president…
The prior (edit: Dem, obviously) president was Jimmy Fuckin Carter…
How do you think the Overton Window has moved since Carter?
We can’t afford to keep going with a strategy that clearly hasn’t worked for 30+ years…
I’m pretty damn sure that Bush came both before and after Clinton
I thought it was obvious we’re just talking about Dems…
But I can edit that in explicitly
It’s exactly the kind of thing that feels good to say, but doesn’t convince anyone at all. Which is why Republicans keep winning despite ideas that should be extremely unpopular. They tie themselves to emotions about masculinity and patriotism and paint the other side as a source of disgust and fear. While Democrats look at people who support or don’t seem eager to stop Trump and say angry things at them, which just makes them not want to help Demcorats.
The “I’m voting, are you?” argument featuring nutty alt-right Maga crazies is far better because it says “hey, you can help stop this nutjob.”
Mmm I’m sorry to tell you that you are wrong
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The “or else” is you will be remembered as the Trump supporter that you are. That’s not a threat.
If I was on the fence this kind of menacing push would make me reaffirm myself into not voting Dems. For real.
What kind of shitty way of convince anyone is this?
I’m not speaking from a place of facts, but I think the sentiment is if you don’t purposefully vote for someone within the two-party system that isn’t Trump, your vote will mathematically be a negative towards votes against Trump.
Not voting/third-party vote = one less vote against Trump/more possible votes for Trump
Can confirm, these awful false-equivalences have only further convinced me that liberals will never lift a finger to help anyone.
Yes, I understand the sentiment. But the tone is off. Sounding like fascists or Marxist Leninist should be the last thing anyone should be aiming for.
More people should be aiming to be Marxists, don’t know why you’re trying to draw an equivalence between Marxists and fascists that doesn’t exist. You should read Blackshirts and Reds, Communists and fascists have served entirely different classes, the fascists served the bourgeoisie while the Marxists served the proletariat, and funded anti-colonial and anti-Imperialist movements the world over (including funding the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine).
As non-american I agree you guys should definitely vote Harris, despite Dems being terrible Trump would absolutely be worse on each topic Dems are bad. That being said, rethoric of this post is straight up facist. Using threats of personal consequences for “wrongly” exercising ones right to vote is wild.
Interesting how everyone blames the people and not the corporate party that doesn’t represent the people. If Democrats are struggling to get leftist votes then I suggest they do things that will make leftists vote for them.
If you have a problem with this line of reasoning then your actual problem is first past the post voting.
Abolish first past the post voting and you can finally actually vote for things you like, rather than against things you hate, but we’re stuck in first past the post voting, so, you must vote strategically.
Just curious, do you really expect Republicans or democrats to support legislation to end their stranglehold on American politics?
“In 2023, 74 bills were introduced supporting ranked-choice voting and 57 of these bills had only Democrat sponsors. In fact, just eight percent of the total bills received bipartisan support.”
No, but there’s one party that has shown support for it and one party that has attempted to outright ban it.
It’s an easy choice.
There’s one party that pretends to support it publicly as long as they can blame the Republicans for “blocking it”.
Ftfy. This is the Democrats go to game plan.
It is insulting to pretend Democrats support ranked choice voting while they’re suing to keep it off of the ballot in DC.
There are some democrats that support ranked choice voting.
There are almost no republicans that do.
It is still an easy choice.
It’s almost as if a political party isn’t a monolith. Crazy.
What are you quoting?
Ranked choice voting is still first past the post… There is still only one winner, the results aren’t spread proportionally. Ranked choice voting can give even bigger majorities with even fewer votes. Since you have only 2 real parties, it won’t change much in the US.
Your understanding of Ranked Choice voting, and what the point of it is, seems to be missing a big chunk right there in the middle…
No, nothing in ranked choice voting says that it becomes proportional representation. Ranked choice voting in the same first past the post system still stays first past the post. If you want proportional representation, it’s not it.
This is a debated topic where I live. Our current PM would love ranked choice voting because it would solidify their position, kill most changes of a conservative victory and eliminate any chance of most other parties to have a meaningful impact on the government. That’s why he abandoned the electoral reform because every commity and experts said that it would be way worse for democracy.
you’re clearly misunderstanding something, conflating some terms, none of that makes sense when you know what those words mean
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qf7ws2DF-zk
please watch this, make sure your understanding is correct, then come back.
…no, ranked choice prevents the spoiler effect, and therefore allows you to vote for candidates you are actually interested in without risk.
This would allow people to vote for 3rd parties without worry, and would destroy the two party system eventually.
You have no idea what you’re talking about, and that’s not what first past the post means.
You’re conflating “voting for a single-seat position” with any method of vote counting. There’s only ever one winner if there’s one seat, but there are better ways of counting votes than first-past-the-post. At least with ranked-choice, more people are happy with the outcome because the winner might be their second preferred option.
I’m not the one who mixes them up… The one I replied to was presenting RCV as a panacea that would help with this party voting when in fact it entrenches the most popular party and remove most chances of other party to ever win an election.
If you want smaller parties to win, RCV isn’t the solution, you need proportional representation. You can combine both though, but that’s not what was implied in the comment that I replied to.
Ranked choice cannot do that, if it can, explain the mechanism
Dictatorships are a terrible place to live because the wealth of the nation doesn’t depend on the citizens. Illiterate slaves can dig-up a mine.
Democracies on the other hand are better places to live not because the people are better, but because the wealth of the nation is dependend on the productivity of the citizens. That’s the only reason you have a highway to the hospital.
Vote in the party you think will enact change, and protest / halt the economy until changes start happening. Right now politicians and corporations don’t care nobody is happy, it’s not affecting their bottom line. Id argue in recent years they accelerated their abuse because there are no consequences.
The parties in place won’t do it themselves, the people need to do it
Do you really think that voting for these people is going to change their mind?
Not any less than not voting, at least.
They already have in several states… So yes?
How many states? Alternatively, how many states have passed laws banning it?
The problem with fptp is that strategic voting leads to part consolidation. The solution to this flaw is value voting.
The solution is to ditch it and use a system that actually reflects the will of the people, such as approval/STAR voting.
why not both?
Unrelated to the message - that’s a bad use of the meme, doesn’t fit at all.
If you’re voting for the lesser evil, you are still voting to reduce harm.
Remember that. You can’t save everyone, but if you save NO ONE that’s on you.
Abstaining or voting third party is an exercise of choice. If you want your candidate to win, vote for them, as we all should do.
Vote for the candidate you support. If you don’t support any, you can choose not to vote.
You wanna change the Democratic Party? Maybe vote more than once every four years. State and local elections have garbage turnouts and this is where right wingers shore up their power (because they ALWATS vote). You need to vote every election, always. You want left leaning Democrats in office? Their careers start small, at the local and state level. Vote for them there and support them as they gain experience and reputation.
But this griping about the electoral process and lack of choices in a national election is just lazy bullsh*t. Yes, a vote for anyone other than Harris is a vote for Trump at this point.
When do you think the last fair Dem presidential primary happened?
Every progressive I know votes in every election from dog catcher to president, but with how deregulated campaign finance laws are, how is a candidate going to compete in a non presidential year when corporations and foreign governments donate millions in the primary to the neoliberal?
Then if they do win the primary, they have to be at the Republican getting the same money, and the DNC and state parties don’t support them because they also take the same money?
Like, I get what you tried to say and I wish it was that fucking easy.
But it’s not as long as money is free speech. We can’t change that until we demand the party stops taking that money in primaries against other Dems, and backs progressive candidates that make it to the general like they back moderates.
So is a vote for anyone other than trump a vote for Harris?
No. There are less Republican voters. That’s why a non/3rd party vote benefits Trump more than Harris.
I’ll vote Dem, but I am ashamed beyond measure of the Dem party. Despite the public doing all they can to stop Trump, the actual candidates running against Trump are sitting on their asses and refusing to take serious action. This “Blue Wave” is not approval FOR Harris-Walz, but rather DISAPPROVAL for Trump. Dems are ultimately more responsible for fascism in the U.S. than their voters.
All in all, the entire United States Government is at fault. This is just one reason why I want an independent Cascadia.
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And every four fucking years of my entire voting lifetime is an influx of ignorant pseudo-intellectual blowhard nonsense about third parties that- similar to their devoted followers…. don’t do jack shit between elections.
I want to go live with the fucking socialist Linux penguins in Antarctica.
Please do.
Currently at 32 points.
Is lemmy just easy to game, or opinions like this actually popular on this site?
Lemmy indeed does have lots of leftists, the main dev is a Communist.
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No, the blame lies squarely on the DNC for deliberately ignoring the loud and clear message from third party voters that genocide is a red line in the sand. The blame further lies with the liberals supporting a decaying Empire and never lifting a finger to help anyone, just showing up at the ballot box every 4 years while the US commits manmade horrors beyond comprehension.
Join an org, like the Party for Socialism and Liberation (PSL) or Freedom Road Socialist Organization (FRSO), this mess can’t be undone by supporting the Dems harder.
you’re a fool or a Russian propagandist.
this election will make waves of change across the world.
to anyone taking this fool seriously I’ll ask you this, where was your conscience when the Uighur people were enslaved.
where was your conscience when Iran was killing woman for standing up for their rights?
where was your conscience when Russia was killing gay men just for being gay?
where was your conscience when North Korea was starving and killing its people?
why didn’t America intervene then? why didn’t you vote your conscience then?
by listening to propaganda like above, you’re not voting your conscience, you’re voting for whatever the propagandists tell you to vote for.
vote to save democracy because we’ve only got the one, and there won’t be a second chance.
Theres a big difference between aiding a genocide vs not showing up to stop one. Are you pretending we are merely being neutral in this Israeli genocide? Thats absurd at best and dishonest at worst.
Progressives are asking for the weapons shipments to stop, and Harris gets the votes to win.
ok, I suppose you don’t support the Uighur genocides by not purchasing any goods in the world market? I mean, if you DO then that would just make you a hypocrite, right?
genocide is genocide. the Uighur genocide has been thoroughly documented and has been going on for about…15 years now? they only started forcing them into internment camps since 2017 though. which reminds me.
where was the outrage when Trump was running in 2016? where was the outrage while he was in office? where was the outrage when Trump continued to do nothing to help those poor Uighur slaves?
did you know that in China you can literally buy organs from Uighur slaves against their will? they’re trafficked as sex slaves, they’re beaten, they’re forced to work to their death, they are murdered just for existing.
so where has all the outrage been for 7 years? oh wait…I get it, it’s too inconvenient because it doesn’t progress the story you want to push.
so I’ll ask more bluntly this time, why is it ok for China to have a genocide and not Israel? is it because they aren’t the right Muslims? or is it because it doesn’t fit the narrative you’re pushing?
Progressives aren’t asking the Dems to commit to even trying to stop the genocide. Progressives are asking Dems to stop actively facilitating and arguably participating in it.
you’re just moving the goal posts again.
tell me why it’s ok for China to genocide the Uighur muslims and it’s not ok for Israel to genocide Hamas muslims?
where is the outrage for allowing e-retailers like Temu, Wish, or Shein to operate within the US? where is the outrage for these companies using forced Uighur slave labor to manufacture their products?
what about the slave labor that places like Apple use to manufacture their products?
all you have to do is answer the question.
Why do Hamas Muslims matter more than Uighur Muslims right now?
I’m not moving any goalposts. Your entire argument assumes that the US is providing military aid to China, knowing that said aid is used to commit genocide. They aren’t.
Your use of the term “Hamas Muslims,” however, is very telling.
what a weak scarecrow. just because Hamas is the brotherhood doesn’t mean you can’t identify them as Muslim. that’s exactly why Israel is attacking them in the first place, right? that makes it relevant to the question that you refuse to answer.
The US aids the Chinese genocide of Uighur Muslims by allowing their economic participation in western markets with products and services manufactured and supported by Uighur slave labor.
how is that any different than supporting Israeli attacks on Hamas Muslims?
but don’t worry, I’ll ask again.
Why do Hamas Muslims matter more than Uighur Muslims, right now?
I’ll take a guess to the answer since nobody has the nerve to admit it.
Uighur Muslim persecution is convenient to popularist notion of high yield and cheap products. the labor they provide supports Chinese interests and provides highly scalable resources for their war machine. the same machine that directly benefits Russia and the ongoing struggle for power that Putin and Xi are attempting to destroy the world over.
By implying Americans should reject democrats and republicans based on their inaction on the atrocities committed by Israel it only serves to support the goals set forward by the Russian and Chinese dictatorships. not to influence the 2024 election, but to sow the seeds of confusion and inspire mistrust in the America system of government.
you said it yourself.
Progressives aren’t asking the Dems to commit to even trying to stop the genocide. Progressives are asking Dems to stop actively facilitating and arguably participating in it.
“progressives” don’t want anyone to participate in a system they deem not acceptable enough. – moving the goal posts
“progressives” want Americans to pivot to any third party candidate in protest against the American government. – manufacturing chaos
“progressives” want Americans to believe that a system they alone can’t change is corrupted and should be dismantled. – sowing the seeds of mistrust
if you’re not a tool that’s being used to support the Russian and Chinese agenda, you’re a fool drinking the koolaid.
Unfortunately, it’s not a “red line in the sand,” no matter how much you keep repeating it. While a majority of people in the US disapprove of Israel’s actions, a tiny fraction of voters (less than 2%) consider it their primary voting issue, an even smaller fraction of that number would consider withholding their vote or voting third party over it.
While you may not like it, it’s not the major concern for American voters. If you’d like to withhold your vote or vote third party about it, be my guest. The only likely scenario that would result from that would helping Trump get elected. If you’re honestly concerned about Palestinians, you’d be wise enough to not enable an even worse situation for them. There’s a reason Israel’s leadership wants Trump to win and encourages the left to revolt about Palestine.
You’re getting played by Israel, who is using your short-sighted feels to enable them to enact long-term reals, which in their case might very well be the full extermination and displacement of all of Palestine. To truly bring that into being, they, at they very least, need Trump to win. Fundamentally you are siding with Israel over Palestinians, and the immediate sense of moral superiority you feel about it is precisely how you’re being manipulated.
Read your history. Using the left’s lack of political pragmatism to aid in hard-right political takeover isn’t new. Your Bush-ist “you’re either with us or against us” simplification of the world and political calculus makes you an easy mark. You are, quite literally, a tool of Israel at this point.
And the best part, from Israel’s point of view, is you get to feel good about it. Win-win (for Israel).
Yeah dude, it would totally make sense to listen to all 3% of those third party voters over the 97% of people who aren’t stupid enough to throw their vote away in such a dumb fashion. That’s how you win elections!
If the Democrats don’t want votes, then it’s on them when they lose, not voters.
tankies gonna tank.
Someday I hope you’ll get over your hatred of Marxism and Marxists.
doubtful. I used to be one.
hate what you know.
unfortunately Marxist have too great of a fear of what they don’t know and are unable to evolve past their comfort zone.
look at what your Marxist movements have become today and tell me it’s EXACTLY what Karl Marx had in mind.
besides, you think you can take down a system without participating in it? win the people, break the system. Marxist can’t win the people because it has a tumor the size of Russia attached to it that’s been spewing hate and dissent against the system for decades. nobody will trust it for another couple decades.
so yeah, I hate Marxist propaganda today.
You were never a Marxist if you think along those lines, lmao. Explain Dialectical and Historical Matetialism, the basics of Marxism.
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about 1/3 of americans of voting age do not vote. its not just that 3% who are unmoved by the two options served up by the decaying US political system
Have you ever wondered what thoughts must go through a person’s mind after making just the worst decision in their lives? Like a father who fell asleep at the wheel because he didn’t want to stop at a motel to save a few bucks, and now he’s in the ICU watching his wife and child slowly dying in front of him?
That’s gonna be you if Trump gets elected. Good luck with that.
This is false
Every county in my state always votes red. Due to the way elections are held in this country, it does not matter how I vote. I could vote for Harris, on the tiny chance that enough others will as well, or I could vote 3rd party, and at least increase the percentage of voters doing that so that it doesnt seem as useless next time. Hell, I could vote for trump and there would still be no difference.
Don’t alienate your allies if you want them to stay allies
Not every “red state” has enough blue people in it to flip, but voter turnout is absolutely the issue in most states. You wanna vote third party and feel connected to some little clique, fine. But don’t expect the Democrats, or the country, to ever change for you. Make your vote valuable.
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The people that dont even understand the electoral college always yell the most about just shutting up and voting straight party.
It’s what Republicans do, and it is a lot easier to live life like that, basic tribalism is what we evolved for:
Us good, them bad
They’re 100% right on the “them bad” in this case…
But half of that basic tribalism is never criticizing “us good”, which is incredibly fucking dangerous.
Vote local elections as well. It’s the only place you can have real impact.
Negging is a normal and effective way to pursuade people. Things must be going great for you.
