They line up in front of a courthouse in southeastern France, from morning to evening, and have gathered in the thousands in cities across the country. They hold signs reading, “one rape every six minutes,” “not all men but always a man,” and “giving in is not consenting.”
They chant: “Rapist we see you, victim we believe you.”
Women across France are rallying in support of Gisèle Pelicot, a 72-year-old reluctant icon whose husband is on trial in the city of Avignon for systematically drugging her and inviting dozens of men, 50 of whom are now his co-defendants, into their home to rape her over nearly a decade.
The shocking case has sparked what many women in France call a long-overdue reckoning over “rape culture” and systemic sexism in the way the judicial system handles sexual violence.
not all men but always a man
Pointless sexist bullshit and wrong on its face. I never understood the drive some people have to paint abusive behavior as exclusive to men.
Exactly. If anything, signs like these drag the attention away from the actual issue.
And pray tell, what exactly is the “real” issue?
Men and women being victims of sexual abuse, perpetrated by both men and women. It is not a genderlocked issue.
From your article, “In fact, 96 percent of women who report rape or sexual assault in the NCVS were abused by men.”
Those are the kinds of numbers that come from laws defining rape as penetration and then only counting convictions.
Kind of like how the US had zero married women that were victims of rape by their husbands when it wasn’t a crime for husbands to rape their wives.
that quote you gave was taken entirely out of context. here’s the very next sentence:
In presenting our findings, we argue that a comprehensive look at sexual victimization, which includes male perpetration and adds female perpetration, is consistent with feminist principles in important ways.
No but the number of assaults by men far outweigh the number by women. And that Scientific American article is just your way of brushing off the fact that men are the primary offenders when it comes to sexual assault. You are exactly like the gun enthusiasts who throw the statistics on mental illness as the true cause of gun deaths and not the guns they use.
Edit: Just cause you seem to be including that link everywhere you post here I’m going to include this link to the 2024 study of sexual assault in France.
https://www.statista.com/topics/8875/violence-against-women-in-france/#topicOverview
“Primary” does not mean “always” however
Oh yeah, you got me there. Statistically small number of women who commit sexual assault completely absolves all men of being complicit in the sexual assault committed by mostly men. We definitely have to correct our perceptions on that one. Sure okay.
hey as a guy who was assaulted, please stop saying all men are complicit. do you understand what you’re saying when you say that?
Sorry you’re getting this reaction. I am a man who was abused by women and all the support groups lead to me taking to a room full of women about it. Do men come forward less often? Yes. It would have to be like 1 in 100 men coming forward for it to be equal. I’ve had one other male friend who has been assaulted, but over half of the women I’ve been friends with have.
If it helps anyone with that being anecdotal, you have to look at the statistics of who is doing it: people in power. Just that alone means more men simply have the opportunity. Add to that that men are told sex is power, and that men who have sex often are virile, whereas women who do are slut shamed. It’s getting better, but still far off.
Anyway I’ll take the downvotes, but every statistic we have shown is that men are the primary antagonist in the vast majority of sexual assault against both men and women.
So how exactly am I complicit for some dude raping someone? Just because I have a penis? And are all women completely exempt or are all women also complicit?
Sexual assault is bad. Apparently you disagree.
Reading the article, it says that both men and women attended the protest against rape culture in France, so the real issue is that France has a rape culture. People vs culture.
This comment section however is about a few of the signs that a few of the protesters carried, and/or the comments from the self proclaimed feminist representative who says they’ll use these protests to promote their own agenda. That’s different, because that’s a gender issue. Men vs. Women.
I understand why some people are annoyed by that, because it splits the people instead of uniting them against the primary enemy: The culture.
Anyway this is just a lemmy thread, and it doesn’t matter who is right, but it shows that even talking about it is a distraction from the “real issue”, because while we are discussing signs and rape statistics, nobody is talking about the rape culture.
I don’t know exactly what the feminist representative wants to do, or if she has a point, but I do believe that we need to be able to unite both men and women to speak freely against the culture, because rape culture is enabled by people who don’t speak about it. Alienating half of them is bad timing in that regard. To stop rape culture we need both men and women to speak against it.
I hope this makes sense. This thread has gone completely off the rails…
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Funny how ready you are to claim a random person you don’t know is an abuser for making a good point.
And completely failing to comprehend that what YOU are doing is abusive behavior. Real gold star child behavior.
I think that was a meme that should have been put on the sign, not against the comment.
Sorry, I don’t understand what you said.
Edit: Oh, you meant that it should be on one of the posters protesting about The Monster of Avignon, then certainly. He is a disgusting human, completely atrocious and his wife is a massive hero, for standing up to such scrutiny and to the public eye, I wish I could bake her a pie or something for being so brave, and an inspiration to abuse victims everywhere.
This is the way.
Who the hell down view me for this… And why!?
I would assume it was because the person who posted said “meme” turned out to be a sexist asshole, taking their “benefit of the doubt” and wiping their ass with it further down the comments, and getting a bunch of those comments deleted.
The number of sexual assault victims in France increased by 33% in 2021 and nearly doubled from 2017, according to a government report. Women made up 89% of rape victims, while 96% of sexual violence perpetrators were men.
Oh yeah, that 4% of sexual assaults being committed by women that are being totally ignored by the media is the REAL problem.
I can’t speak for how their “sexual violence” criterion is defined, but as for the “rape” statistic, most western countries (France probably included) define rape for reporting purposes as “forced penetration”, specifically excluding “forced envelopment” from the statistic, and thereby excluding practically all male rape victims with female perpetrators from crime statistics.
For example, here are the statistics for sexual violence in the year 2011, according to the CDC (note that these are for the US, and may be significantly different for France, though the reporting method is likely the same - there’s also a 2013 CDC report with effectively the same numbers for the US):
an estimated 1.6% of women reported that they were raped in the 12 months preceding the survey. The case count for men reporting rape in the preceding 12 months was too small to produce a statistically reliable prevalence estimate.
And
The percentages of women and men who experienced these other forms of sexual violence victimization in the 12 months preceding the survey were an estimated 5.5% and 5.1%, respectively.
Added together, we see that 7.1% of women and 5.1% of men reported being victims of sexual violence in 2011. That is, 58% of victims of all sexual violence in 2011 were women, and 42% were men. For every 3 female victims, there were 2 male victims.
Now on to the frequently cited claim that more than 95% of perpetrators are men. From the “Characteristics of Sexual Violence Perpetrators” section about a third of the way down, keeping in mind the percentages above:
For female rape victims, an estimated 99.0% had only male perpetrators (more on this later…). In addition, an estimated 94.7% of female victims of sexual violence other than rape had only male perpetrators.
And
For male victims, the sex of the perpetrator varied by the type of sexual violence experienced. The majority of male rape victims (an estimated 79.3%) had only male perpetrators. For three of the other forms of sexual violence, a majority of male victims had only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (an estimated 82.6%), sexual coercion (an estimated 80.0%), and unwanted sexual contact (an estimated 54.7%). For noncontact unwanted sexual experiences, nearly half of male victims (an estimated 46.0%) had only male perpetrators and an estimated 43.6% had only female perpetrators.
To help us with the breakdowns of these numbers, earlier in the report we find that:
1.7% of men were made to penetrate a perpetrator in the 12 months preceding the survey [and] an estimated 1.3% of men experienced sexual coercion in the 12 months before taking the survey [and] an estimated 1.6% of men having experienced unwanted sexual contact in the 12 months before taking the survey [and] an estimated 2.5% of men experienced this type of victimization (noncontact unwanted sexual experiences) in the previous 12 months
So, of the 1.7% of made to penetrate male victims, 82.6% of perpetrators were female. Of the 1.3% sexual coercion, 80% of perpetrators were female. Of the 1.6% unwanted sexual contact, 54.7% were female, and of the 2.5% noncontact, 43.6% were female.
So, 1.4% of the 1.7% made to penetrate, 1% of the 1.3% sexual coercion, .9% of the 1.6% unwanted sexual contact, and 1.1% of the 2.5% noncontact.
So, 4.4% of the 7.1% of men reporting sexual violence had female perpetrators. That is, 62% of sexual violence against men is committed by women (in 2011).
So, going back to our numbers above, we see that 62% of the 42% of sexual violence with men as victims was committed by women.
Our final numbers are: 74% of sexual violence in total in the US is committed by men, and 26% is committed by women. Which ain’t great, but that feels a lot more realistic than “95%”, and it’s a far cry from the intentionally misleading numbers you’re citing.
BUT IT GETS WORSE…
What happens when we look at just rape? Note that first we have to figure out what the CDC means by “rape”, because at first “99% of rape is committed by men” looks pretty damning.
Well, “rape” is defined by the CDC for the purposes of this study as “completed or attempted forced penetration or alcohol- or drug-facilitated penetration”. That is, only being penetrated counts as rape.
Men, on the other hand, get the completely separate category “made to penetrate”, that is, “being forced to have sex with someone, just doing the penetrating instead of being penetrated.”
So, 99% of rapists are men because rape is intentionally defined as “being penetrated” to exclude male victims of rape from the statistics. I wonder why…
Well, what happens when we actually look at those numbers, counting “made to penetrate” as, y’know, rape, because it is rape?
an estimated 1.6% of women (or approximately 1.9 million women) were raped in the 12 months before taking the survey
And
The case count for men reporting rape in the preceding 12 months was too small to produce a statistically reliable prevalence estimate.
Which is, again, because male rape victims are effectively excluded from this definition. Also, we have this:
an estimated 1.7% of men were made to penetrate a perpetrator in the 12 months preceding the survey
And
Characteristics of Sexual Violence Perpetrators For female rape victims, an estimated 99.0% had only male perpetrators. In addition, an estimated 94.7% of female victims of sexual violence other than rape had only male perpetrators. For male victims, the sex of the perpetrator varied by the type of sexual violence experienced. The majority of male rape victims (an estimated 79.3%) had only male perpetrators. For three of the other forms of sexual violence, a majority of male victims had only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (an estimated 82.6%), sexual coercion (an estimated 80.0%),
Note that these numbers clearly show that made to penetrate happens just as much each year as “rape”. This means that fully half of rape victims are men (in 2011 - the number fluctuates in the other years of the study, but not more than 5%).
Finally, if 99% of rapists are men and 83% of an equal number of “made to penetrators” are women … then an estimated 42% of the perpetrators of nonconsensual sex (that is, rape) in 2011 were women.
Sorry for the wall of text, but I think it’s important to debunk this sort of misandrist misinformation.
Edit: Here’s a Time article that confirms these numbers. They also mention that boys under 15 are more likely to be sexually assaulted than women over 40, and are more than twice as likely to be assaulted as girls under 15. Again, this may be different for France, but it’s pretty damning for the US.
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Who the fuck taught you statistics? A large percentage of a small percentage added to the larger percentage of the whole doesn’t make a medium percentage of the whole. JFC 😮💨
Tell me you didn’t read my comment without telling me you didn’t read my comment (the paragraph you want is the one immediately above the one you quoted, btw - I’ve made an edit to the paragraph you quoted to make the math clearer).
You could also feel free to check the Time article I linked to see someone else come to the same numbers I did.
And misandry isn’t really a thing. It’s something misogynists say in order to perpetuate a false equivalency. So thanks for outing yourself.
Big oof. I can see that you’re far too set in your sexism for me to waste any more time trying to have a constructive conversation with you.
I did look at your time article and I did read your comment, the whole thing. I stand by my assessment of your lack of statistical prowess.
And would you like to know why I completely dismissed the entire Time magazine article?
Cathy Young is a contributing editor at Reason magazine.
That right there is the author of the article. And if I have to explain to you what Reason Magazine is then you’re part of the problem.
You are the problem. I very much look forward to 5 years from now when you will bolt up in bed in the middle of the night with a crushing realization of how unacceptable your past behavior was.
I’m not out to debate the statistics of “REAL problem” with you. I’m pointing out that it’s counterproductive (and I believe morally wrong) to tell survivors they’re unworthy because their abuser was a woman. I get the feeling some people care more about gendering this issue than they do about about victims of abuse.
Yeah literally no one is saying that a victim of sexual assault is unworthy of anything because their assaulter is a woman and not a man. We’re talking about the issue of men thinking it’s okay to sexually assault because it’s almost never fucking prosecuted.
Bringing up the statistic of female perpetrators is simply a way of deflecting the responsibility of men to acknowledge and hold accountability to their fellow men who commit sexual assault.
I’ve said it elsewhere in this thread but this is exactly the same as the gun enthusiasts bringing up mental illness statistics as a way of absolving guns of their role in gun violence.
The police who recite such stats in my area don’t consider me a victim of my repeated assaults, specifically because of my gender. I guess I should probably pipe down and stop being so uppity and hysterical though. After all my private parts are outside of my body so they’re basically asking to be used by anyone.
I don’t know where in the stats I quoted it said anything about dismissing male victims? In fact that statistic includes male victims because most sexual assault on males is committed by other males. Now if you were assaulted by a woman I’m sorry and that’s terrible, but the fact is that it’s a rarity in comparison to the acts committed by men. But all should be treated with equal seriousness. And none of it is, because men are in power and they don’t tend to consider rape or sexual assault a “real” crime.
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From your article, “In fact, 96 percent of women who report rape or sexual assault in the NCVS were abused by men.”
Plus, when has a man ever been drugged and gang raped by only women? That’s what’s even more disturbing about this case.
Ok Mr False Equivalency. That study is from 2017. This one is from 2015.
That Scientific American article and study also pertain to America. And the statistic in the article is from the French government report from 2021.Edit: I couldn’t find the statistics from 2021 but I could find this one from 2024. And would you look at that, the statistics on the percentage of male rapists in France is even higher now.
You being downvoted shows that men are never going to listen to women about this.
96% of perpetrators are men. It’s a statistic that goes against their “women are abusers too!” defense they have to protect their own egos from the reality that one of their friends is likely an abuser.
96% of perpetrators are men. It’s a statistic that goes against their “women are abusers too!” defense they have to protect their own egos from the reality that one of their friends is likely an abuser.
literally rape apology from you here.
The provocative and stupid sign in the article has completely derailed a potential discussion about fixing this problem and the exact nature of the problem - because it says something that denies anybody experiencing something outside it’s narrow statement their lived experience. It’s also not a men vs women issue - there are women that are assaulted by other women, who are equally silenced by this stupid sign. If you believe that a single rape is one too many (as any person on the fucking planet should), then explain to me how 4% of all rapes simply don’t matter - and how it isn’t offensive at a movement which is borne of abuse victims fighting against the system that facilitates it, and silences victims - to not only completely disregard men that have been victims of women (or women which have), but to then say that anybody who highlights the fact that rape can be perpetrated by a woman, even if it isn’t the majority of the time - must therefore be a rapist or friend of one. Fuck that noise.
stop making dumbass generalisations that paint those of us who make active choices to support women and act decently, being an ally as “probably having rapist friends” because of our gender - like seriously what the actual fuck is wrong with you?
Nobody is denying that the majority of rapes are men against women, but the disgusting attitude you have here that all men are automatically rapists, when there are people that want to fix this culture and stop the problem - but stupid nonsense like this pushes so many people down the alt-right pipeline and sets the entire movement back decades. Literally all you have to do to defuse this entire fucking issue is acknowledge male victims instead of pretending they don’t exist, and then link arms with them when they support the same reflections and changes to society and behaviour - instead it’s been turned into a stupid ‘men vs women’ fight by people that assume all people of one gender are perpetrators and all of another are victims, instead of the much more simple universal truth that rape is evil and you should just be able to accept that without adding qualifiers.
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I guess it’s sometimes done in the spirit of forcing men to really consider their actions, because most of the men I know tend to think abusive men are always other men. And we usually have plenty excuses for our own abusive behavior. So it is like saying: “no, stop with the excuses, the problem is you”, in the hopes that this message will also reach its intended audience, ie the many men who are abusive to women in one way or another and, largely, in denial.
But I agree, these kinds of slogans annoy the hell out of me too and are totally not helpful in more ways than one, e.g., when men seek protection from abuse. I guess there are better ways of making a more forceful point about holding men accountable.
most of the men I know tend to think abusive men are always other men
I’m sure most if not all abusers are in denial and don’t consider themselves abusers, but this slogan gives a pass to ones who happen to be women by insisting that they don’t exist at all.
I don’t think that slogan communicates what you’re saying here well, if at all
Maybe it was the 50 men that raped this woman?
Women rapists are more rare. And comments like this only serve to promote rape culture. Maybe stop and think of how many women are hurting before you start screaming sexism and then maybe women will listen to your point of view.
Women rapists are more rare. And comments like this only serve to promote rape culture.
They exist, right? In direct contradiction to what the sign is plainly saying, right? But pointing that out is somehow promoting rape culture? That is ridiculous and offensive. They mean to exclude an entire category of survivors. To believe that slogan and uncritically repeat it, you’d need to be willfully ignorant and have the emotional intelligence of a turnip.
Sex abuse of all kinds is evil and a social menace. By people of any gender, against people of any gender. No equivocation, full stop.
imagine taking this story, about where a woman was systematically drugged and raped for OVER 10 YEARS, and going “ah yes but what about the men?!?”. I truly feel for the men in the comments sharing their stories, and I hope they continue to share and raise awareness, but Jesus y’all not the time
Take your own fucking advice. If men talking about their own rapes triggers you so, then you are the same crap you are crying about. You are sexist beyond belief.
It’s never the fucking time for male abuse victims to speak up and tell their stories, we’re always told to shut up and deal with it.
I’s never the fucking time for male abuse victims to speak up and tell their stories
It’s never time to break the status quo, even if it means liberation for those considered in minority groups (in this case people assaulted by women vs people assaulted by men). I’m paraphrasing a MLK article passed around a few weeks ago.
In his letter sent from jail, King went on to criticize white moderates. He said that a white moderate is someone “who constantly says: ‘I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action’; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom.” Such a person is, according to King, someone “who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a ‘more convenient season.’”
RIP MLK. All the love
If he were alive and protesting today you’d be whining about how white lives matter too and he’s a racist asshole who thinks white people deserve to be lynched. Fuck off
Who are you referring to here? A specific person or Americans in general?
The person I’m replying to, though tbf I don’t actually know if they’re racist like that, but they and a lot of people in this comment section are speaking out against this protest about a woman who got raped constantly and rape culture against women and trying to make it about the issues men face. it’s all very “I’m white and i got harassed by a cop, so this protest about police shooting a black child should be about me too”
Yeah exactly. I’m a man who was assaulted as a kid by a woman. Shit happens. But looking at what shit happens most often - it’s sexual violence perpetrated by men against women.
I don’t know how we change that. Maybe by continuing to level up the power dynamic between men and women, I feel like we’ve been making some progress with that over the past century. Finally. But it’s more than that, there are too many idiot arseholes who think they can have anything their fists can beat down. Almost all of them are men.
Pretty much every girlfriend and female friend I’ve ever had has had bad experiences with men. Women I have cared about over the years have had experiences across the spectrum from cat calling and comments back when they were kids in school uniforms all the way through to stranger rape. Domestic violence isn’t uncommon either.
I dunno, I wish I had a solution. It fuckin breaks my heart - when a close friend or a partner opens up about what happened to her and there’s nothing you can do, it’s years too late, you have these thoughts like if I’d been there I could have stopped it- but it happened years ago and you are fuckin helpless to do anything except maybe hug her if she’s comfortable with that, or if not try to tell her it’s over, she’s safe and stronger now, whatever you think might help.
You don’t realise how harmful sexual assault is until you’ve been unable to help someone you love. The key word isn’t ‘sexual’, it’s ‘assault’.
Shit like that makes me fuckin ashamed to be a bloke. I don’t know how we fix this, but I’ve got two suggestions for a good start - firstly, we don’t do that shit. Never, there’s never an excuse. Secondly, we fuckin shut down other guys, even if they’re our mates, if they start with that sort of talk.
Yeah, there’s wrong uns in whatever gender. But in terms of atrocity it’s us men well in the lead. We gotta change that. I think we can at least fuckin try.
thanks for being one of the reasonable ones in this comment section lol. and it seems you’re doing a pretty good job of trying to enact change. keep it up, it’s a team effort :)
sorry to hear about your story as well, hope everything is going well for you now.
Cheers, yeah I’ve kinda grown into my own shit. It’s caused me a lot of problems over the years, but I’m getting old now and I’m okay with stuff.
I’m just saying that anyone can get hurt like that, but it’s mostly women getting hurt and it’s mostly men doing the hurting. We’ve got to fuckin stop doing that because it is profoundly wrong.
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no that’s not true at all. you’re supposed to talk about it, to share your stories, to go to therapy, support groups. to make online spaces to discuss and heal and grow. same as women. unfortunately, the only time I ever see men share their stories is when it takes away from a women’s experience, which is disgusting as has been happening more and more on this app.
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It literally does matter when you talk. If BLM groups only ever protested when there was another protest they could hijack that would garbage. Stop talking over other victims if you actually give a shit. Doing what you and arcaneslime and a bunch of other m*n here are doing has the same effect as going to a BLM protest with All Lives Matter signs
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Removed, civility.
If it weren’t for that “but always a man”, there would be no issue. Celebrating “but always a man” is the issue driving objections here.
The problem is the sign in the thumbnail. It sure as good god fuck is not always men and you’re a disgusting liar to claim that.
jesus man, not everything is about you. sure, not all men are sexual predators. easy enough to agree on. but the point is that all men have had opportunities to call their peers out on creepy behavior, whether it’s catcalling, looking down on women, sexualizing them, etc. and failed. each of these 50 plus men in this story could’ve reported this as odd, or talked to the women and made sure she was ok, or hung around until the drugs wore off to double check, and didn’t. each of them were given an opportunity and they took full advantage of it and of her. so yeah. all men have failed women at some point, and each of your MANY comments in this thread are honestly just another example of that, taking away from this poor women’s story to wage your personal crusade.
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Lol maybe if you’re a white guy in a middle class neighborhood below the age of 60 that doesn’t have any open indication of being queer or a ethnic/religious minority.
Men are much more likely to be a victim of every other violent crime besides rape.
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If you think this is a conservative thing I really don’t know what to tell you. Anyone who has been paying attention for the last five years could tell you that this is a problem that goes beyond political affiliation.
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Said as another absolute that you shouldn’t, as if PTSD doesn’t exist for men that do get raped but just not as frequently.
Yes it’s skewed but seriously try to avoid absolute statements like that cause it absolutely will push the same victim ignorance that we try to avoid with women comig forward and it will upset people.
Just say “most” or even the “average man”
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Your comment doesn’t attack the person upset it just leaves out other victims as if they don’t exist.
You can edit a comment at any time and you don’t have to be miserable or rude just cause someone else is.
It’s the same argument people made during the black lives movement by saying all lives matter. Of course all lives matter, but right now we are talking about black lives cause they are the ones hurting. Woman are the overwhelming majority of sexual abuse victims. We are talking about them right now. I say this as a male who was a victim of abuse by an older woman.
Talking about it is never a problem, but a sign that says “always a man” is factually wrong and invisibilising, it is more harmful than helpful. It’s right to point it out, I think
It’s not the story in general, it’s the “but always a man” that’s objectionable.
This 100%. If men being raped is such a massive issue to yall, make your own protest about it, don’t shit on the protests of marginalized people bc they’re fighting for their own rights and not yours
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Came here to see discussions about the truly insane case mentioned in the article. Actually found an entire comment section full of ‘not all men’ vs ‘basically all men’ threads
Do I want to scroll down? Nah, not really.
I’ll just leave this here: No, not all men are rapists. Yes, all men should stand up to them. It’s that simple and if you deviate from that formula you dive into rape culture or misandry, depending, are part of the problem, actively, passively, in one way or the other.
As a man, have this attitude (there’s subtitles).
As a woman… “Dudes it’s only an embellishment” “noone thinks ‘all men’ is meant seriously” STFU you’re being catty you know exactly how often women use covert aggression, use plausible deniability to get away with the vilest shit, even if you don’t mean it like that right now, in this instance, it’s still how it’s perceived, and no, not all men deserve to be treated like that. So cut it out.
Then maybe you should understand that women rape men as frequently as men rape women:
And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).
In other words, if being made to penetrate someone was counted as rape—and why shouldn’t it be?—then the headlines could have focused on a truly sensational CDC finding: that women rape men as often as men rape women.
Now consider: how many women do you see convicted and jailed for rape?
crickets
That’s the sound of massive gender bigotry in play, right there - 50% of all cross-gender rapists getting away Scott-free, purely by virtue of their gender.
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The internet loves to argue with a generalization that is only true 9,999 times out of ten thousand.
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The heck you mean “close enough”, 4% is not within margin of error, and even then this is a grave accusation to lump on an entire demographic.
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Dafq is wrong with you. You just chose to ignore and invalidate a horrible experience of thousands, if not millions, just to defend a random person’s Sign? Maybe take a step back and think again.
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Removed for civility and tenp banned for blaming a rape victim.
Yeah I also saw the similarly to ALM in the comments of this post.
Yes, women also abuse men (and also other women), but the vast majority of cases that appear before a judge involve men as the perpetrators. I’d want to tackle the big problems first if I have to prioritize cultural (and sexual) progress of a society.
But I also recognize bias exists at pretty much every level of this process, inside or outside of a courtroom. I think we should still value evidence over hearsay, as was demonstrated in a case like Depp v. Heard, yet show compassion for victims because they need to feel safe to speak up, no matter the gender.
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Its a shame an obviously inflammatory sign and clickbait seeking article image has made it so that the discussion is mostly off topic.
Its insane and the whole evil piece of shit that perpetrated his kink of having multiple people raped by omission and literal drugging and rape gets away from conversations by the obvious bullshit of absolutes is insane to me. how about no victim blaming on either side and recognition that rape is awful abuse of power dynamics that occur whenever its viewed as possible.
But also this post should probably be removed because that sign is meant to cause this kinda of angry response and it leads into a lot of hurt victims and happily ignorant people hand waving it away.
There were multiple people raped by omision?
Told that it was the wife’s kink to pretend to be asleep and that consent was given earlier to be passed on since they would be roleplaying as soon as they got in the bedroom…
Fuck that’s fucked up, typing out.If stealthing is rape by altered consent then this certainly falls somewhere in that spectrum too.
reportedly saying he received a message on coco.gg reading, “I am indeed his wife, and I agree to welcome you.” [Source]
Edit for a quote but yeah I mean this is a huge deal and full of insane testimony that should be the basis of this discussion.
Basically threesomes where 1 of the participants have not been given a chance to fully consent and 1 was given none. Because of 1 guy who enjoyed the power he felt.
I think anyone practicing this kink knows to get proper consent before hand, a text message doesn’t cut it. They knew exactly what was going on imo.
I would hope that to be true but know that it’s not how life works. So maybe stop thinking you know who everyone else is and what they know.
Obviously the perpetrator knew and from testimony some others certainly did but not everyone thinks about their life so closely.
Hopefully it inspires more people to take vocal recorded consent and have safe words/actions but even then people will still be stupid because people don’t know what they don’t know.Best we can educate others, pity (where possible), and hold accountable for their actions as needed.
The men didn’t care about the woman’s consent. They just wanted to fuck so they accepted whatever was said. They’re victims of their own bad judgment.
Ok, wow, this is a fucked up thread.
I just came here to say “More power to her!”, she’s setting an incredible example and we need to turn back the misogyny and just general sexual violence that we’ve had in society since time immemorial.
I think I would have more sympathy with those focusing on the “not all men but always a man” sign if this weren’t in the context of a woman being drugged by her husband and then said husband inviting about 50 random men to rape her, over 10 years.
One of the worst times to advocate for men’s rights/issues is when everyone is talking about the heinous crimes a bunch of men have done. Especially if the comments you’re leaving are focusing on how women rape just as much as men do, etc.
I agree with you. Yes, this is not the time nor the place to go full on men’s rights activism, 100% correct.
But if someone tells a rape victim his experience does not account because he part of the 4%, then nobody won anything at all, and I will speak my mind about such a heinous statement, the same way I will speak my mind about any one telling Woman shit like “It happened bc you dressed so seductive”, "You sure he heard you saying No?"etc etc. .
One of the worst times to advocate for men’s rights/issues is when everyone is talking about the heinous crimes a bunch of men have done. Especially if the comments you’re leaving are focusing on how women rape just as much as men do, etc.
Agreed. Unfortunately there’s always gonna be a whataboutism as long as men feel unheard…
People can lose empathy when they think the world is ignoring them. It’s taken me years to move on from people telling me to “man up” or “get over it” about my SA.
I really hope that at some point male victims of sexual assault will work to create a movement of support. It’s not ok that y’all get told to man up, and it’s not ok that y’all are often used as a way to shut down discussions of sexual violence against women.
Absolutely agreed.
Something I used to hear regarding feminism was that it also fought for men’s rights even if indirectly for equality purposes. While I wouldn’t say it’s accurate of the movement now, I will say that it’d be a nice thing for men’s rights groups to pick up. If these movements want to be heard then they must be willing to listen to the voices of women and be willing to bring their own to justice.
Yo, feminists have been leading the charge on shit like paternity leave (FMLA was feminists), battered men’s shelters (now there’s four! In the country!) and getting equality of rulings on spousal abuse or visitation rights. Don’t buy into the alt-right BS about how the movement used to be good but now it’s just full of all those self-centered women, and I only hate the current version. It’s a really common line, and it’s bullshit.
I’ll be completely honest: I don’t really know which organizations/movements are doing what these days. There’s too much to keep track of. The groups where I am aren’t particularly kind though. That’s coming from my knowledge of an experience with a family member’s divorce, so I apologize for being misinformed.
I just do what I think is right. It’s all I have energy for.
As a modern feminist I think that’s one of the differences between the third and fourth waves. The third wave (and early second wave) had a strong emphasis on “feminism is for everyone” and was much more “theory based” if that makes sense. The fourth wave is generally understood to be defined by the era of mass social media. It’s been hardened by things like gamergate, the me too movement, and the rabid opposition to the third wave by reactionary men refusing to accept that it was the most pro man wave feminism saw. I don’t think it’s tactically wise or theoretically sound, but I get and feel the anger. That said I’m generally more pro third wave as a whole, including thinking bell hooks really understood how patriarchy negatively impacts men.
But yeah, modern feminist culture is jaded and angry, and for good reason. And I do agree that a men’s movement to deal with y’all’s issues would be incredibly helpful so long as you’re able to keep the reactionary voices out of it. Because from this woman’s perspective, a lot of men really need to develop friendships based on mutual care and understanding. Women can’t fix the malaise men are currently showing, and reactionaries can only make it worse.
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I’m not one of them, but the problem is the sign in the thumbnail. Without that I doubt it would’ve upset as many people.
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I didn’t even look at the thumbnail. I’m a man btw. If I had to rewrite that sign it might say ‘NOT ALL MEN - JUST TOO MANY’. Or, I dunno, something like that.
I kinda feel like, for blokes there are two important things we can do. Aside from stop having arguments about who’s the bigger victim (it’s women). First is just don’t do that shit. Just don’t. It’s actually easy and rewarding to not be a bad person. Second is don’t let any other guys get away with even talking like that. Even if they’re mates, step the fuck up and let them know that talk is not okay. Let’s be honest, many of us have heard our mates talk about women in a way we weren’t quite comfy with and afterwards thought we should have said something. Say something.
terminally online men try not to take a picture of a random sign in an otherwise unrelated article personally challenge (impossible)
If she held up a sign holding “all gays should die” would that be enough to talk about? A protest for a good cause is not a free pass to spread untruths. There are some men in this thread who were actually raped and you rail against them for sharing their story. The trial still goes on, it’s not like people here are in favor of the rapists?
To use your inflammatory language: it’s unbelievably stupid and fragile to believe you get to direct the contents of the topic. Let the adults talk
Reading is fucking hard I guess
My heart breaks for her. I’m glad she gets to see the support of those around her while going through this. And Jesus fuck, how can you even do that to someone? I just cannot wrap my mind of being able to hurt someone like that, and then to keep doing that, and just go on living life. I’m not religious, but I hope that man burns in hell.
Let’s see how long it takes for rape apologists to show up
I don’t think that happens here? One of the reasons I’ve stuck with lemmy is that it’s relatively nice.
The commenter probably saw the “Always a man” part of the protest sign and is daring someone to deny it.
It’s an unfortunate sign to feature in the main article picture because it distracts from the story. There’s no issue focusing on one part of an issue (victimization of women) and not all parts (sexual abuse and rape in general). But denying the larger problem exists is counterproductive.
Pointing out language that excludes a massive number of victims isn’t rape apology.
Women can be victims of women too, though. Look at how many mothers have subjected their daughters to genital mutilation, for example.
I think it’s pretty reasonable to say, “please don’t use exclusionary language that implies some victims are more valid than others”.
I’ll take the bait too because I’ve personally known a female abuser (never did anything to me but raped a 14 year old as a teacher) and it makes me furious that a so-called activist would not only disregard crime that doesn’t fit their narrative, but try to gaslight the rest of the world into doing it too.
I’d say it (E: not just rape apology, but misogyny in general) only happens a tiny margin less than on the rest of the internet, which is to say it still happens a whole fucking lot, even if they are sometimes a little less blatant with it.
E: in case the replies and the up/down vote ratios in this post alone isn’t evidence enough, the mod log sure shows what positions are defended in one of the biggest spaces on here.
Yes, the one protecting rape victims no matter the gender, and the one against people like you, who call people you don’t know abusers, just for having a penis. I hope you grow some empathy one day, and figure out what you did wrong here.
And yet, what no-one wants to face is the fact that women rape men as frequently as men rape women:
And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).
In other words, if being made to penetrate someone was counted as rape—and why shouldn’t it be?—then the headlines could have focused on a truly sensational CDC finding: that women rape men as often as men rape women.
I mean, yes - let’s lock up convicted rapists. But if 50%of cross-gender rapists are women yet almost 100% of convicted rapists are men, there’s some seriously weapons-grade gender bigotry at play, there.
A legal system that is truly based on equality should see about a 50/50 split of male/female rapists convicted, and for largely equal time served as well.
I think you are hand-picking numbers here. The most current CDC Report on Intimate Partner Violence does not support your claims. https://www.cdc.gov/nisvs/documentation/NISVSReportonIPV_2022.pdf
The report you picked excludes quite a lot of victims as it’s about intimite partner violence which it defines as:
The term, intimate partner violence, refers to any physical or sexual violence, stalking, and/or psychological aggression by a current or former dating partner or spouse.
For the full numbers not just for intimate partners you want this report https://www.cdc.gov/nisvs/documentation/nisvsReportonSexualViolence.pdf which confusingly has the same title. It states 2.3% of women raped in a 12 month timeframe and 0.3% of men being raped and 1.3% made to penetrate in the same timeframe, so 1.6% of men either raped or made to penetrate.
In the context of this post this is disgusting to bring up.
This doesn’t have any bearing on what this old lady was put through.
In the context of this comment section, and the image that was chosen to lead the article, it is not disgusting and it simply makes sense.
She is a fucking hero, she is brave and she gives hope to us rape victims. But if on the same breath you praise her and the people who support her, and dismiss a fuckton of rape victims just because the perpetrators of their particular rapes were women, then that is bound to raise a significant level of discomfort and take away from what the story should be, giving support to the victim of The Beast of Avignon and all rape victims, encouraging them to come forward.
Go make your own post about male victims then.
I took a look at the CDC report. Those comparable numbers are only about the 12 months preceding the survey which is, while probably statistically significant, not the whole story. It’s interesting to see why there’s a jump in those numbers for the 12 months preceding, but otherwise if you look at lifetime numbers women are victimized at significantly higher rates than men.
an estimated 19.3% of women and 1.7% of men have been raped during their lifetimes
that’s being penetrated, I think it doesn’t include being made to penetrate, which is covered in other forms of sexual violence.
side note: I don’t know how the article got numbers for “being made to penetrate” specifically, the CDC article doesn’t seem to specifically say it. maybe I skimmed it wrong. I only saw the 1.6% of men reporting “unwanted sexual contact” in the last 12 months, which is compared to the women reporting at 2.2% of women, which is while still almost 40% higher, closer than lifetime experiences which are estimated at 27.3% vs 10.8%. Guess which is which.
An estimated 43.9% of women and 23.4% of men experienced other forms of sexual violence during their lifetimes, including being made to penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and noncontact unwanted sexual experiences.
This includes being made to penetrate and other things, again if you can find where the 1.6% comes from please let me know.
An estimated 15.2% of women and 5.7% of men have been a victim of stalking during their lifetimes
this is interestingly one of the categories where it is not as close in the last 12 months: women’s rate double men’s. not central to my overall point but it is surprising because if anything I expected this to be closer than other categories, considering social media making stalking easier. just a note.
here’s an interesting part about “always a man”:
women are predominantly predated by men in all forms, but men are predominantly made to penetrate and coerced by women (I guess this is expected more than men would be doing this?), while penetrated predominantly by men (I guess obvious) and suffering other forms of sexual predation including stalking by a relatively even rate of men and women.
That sounds like it all comes pretty close to “always a man”.
Those comparable numbers are only about the 12 months preceding the survey which is, while probably statistically significant, not the whole story.
How’s that relevant? It looks at one year and within that year the number of rape/made-to-penetrate victims is roughly equal for men and women. Unless there was something unusual happening that year or the same men are made to penetrate more often then women get raped, then if you extend the timeframe the numbers should change similarly for men and women.
side note: I don’t know how the article got numbers for “being made to penetrate” specifically, the CDC article doesn’t seem to specifically say it. maybe I skimmed it wrong.
From the 2011 study in the Results section:
For men, the lifetime prevalence of being made to penetrate a perpetrator was an estimated 6.7% (>7.6 million men), while an estimated 1.7% of men were made to penetrate a perpetrator in the 12 months preceding the survey.
wow, your argument really becomes impenetrable once you concede to "unless"es and “if” and "should"s.
there is an extended timeline. it’s called lifetime. and it tells a different story.
about the stats: thanks for finding it, I mixed the numbers and was looking for the 1.6% … anyway, looking for lifetime numbers, if you compare women who have been raped vs men who were raped and made to penetrate combined, the numbers add up to 19.3% of women vs 1.7+6.7 = 8.4% of men assuming zero overlap. that’s still more than double the rate of men.
in the same section for sexual violence other than rape, women’s rates nearly double men’s in lifetime numbers. again for some reason much closer in the 12 months preceding.
sexual coercion: 12.5% vs 5.8% lifetime (more than double) and not that close in the 12 months as other categories, 2% vs 1.3% (1.5x approximately)
etc etc…
I don’t know what the fuck happened between 2010 and 2011 but the numbers for that year do not reflect lifetime experiences of people at all. it makes no sense to disregard the extended timeline and instead use the snippet to extrapolate.
Oddly defensive response you have.
So basically, “not all men and not all women” should have been the slogan in the first place.
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rationally and logically studied the ideology call the practitioners female supremacists,
Wow. That was remarkably mask off. You watch a lot of Ben Shapiro, buddy?
Ben Shapiro is a moron. And so is pretty much anyone who has ever punted the “alpha male” narrative.
What I do, exclusively, is listen to what “feminists” say, and compare it to not only reality, but also how any flip-side examples for men are perceived. From there it is clear that the ideology is one of gender supremacy. There is no other possible interpretation, because there is no equality in their objectives. Any “benefits” that men accrue from feminism are purely by happenstance and lucky accident, but the foundation and exclusive intent of any one incident has always been female-first and almost always to the intentional exclusion of men.
And what does that mean, you fill a document with feminist phrases and ctrl+v over every word ‘woman’ the word ‘man’? That is… wow, that is incredibly academic. I’m actually hit-stunned by how smart that is.
And what does that mean, you fill a document with feminist phrases and ctrl+v over every word ‘woman’ the word ‘man’? That is… wow, that is incredibly academic. I’m actually hit-stunned by how smart that is.
If that’s the best you can come up with, then you are just as bad as Ben Shapiro.
Women made up 89% of rape victims, while 96% of sexual violence perpetrators were men.
Ok, so not so men but 96% of perpetrators are men.
This very precise statistic comes from a single study made in bad faith, over 20 years ago. If you want to read a more recent study, with linked sources, feel free to check https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known/
That percentage came from the 2021 report by the French government. This is not outdated information. And it’s pertains to France not America.
Dude just shut the fuck up about that study xD most rape is done by men towards women, quit acting like that’s just not the case. Women deserve to not be raped, can you just say that with no qualifiers?
I would prefer to say, nobody deserves to be raped, and as long as people keep giving that flawed statistic that harms both male and female victims of rape, I have no reason not to share it.
That kind of disregard is what keeps most female child rapists out of jail, or nets them far lesser sentences.
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actually decent men are aware that they are complicit by their very existence as men under the patriarchy, and invest their energy in being better and calling out their fellow men to try and improve your collective reputation
This is bald-faced, shameless bigotry and reflects a real lack of self awareness
actually decent men are aware that they are complicit by their very existence as men under the patriarchy
Could you fucking imagine saying this about any other group of people
Sure can. There’s a lot of “blaming citizens of countries for things they have no say in” nowadays
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Reported.
guys always is an embellishment. it’s almost funny that not all men became not always men. obviously not always men but if you think the numbers are comparable you’re living in a fantasy land.
but if you think the numbers are comparable you’re living in a fantasy land.
The CDC - the largest medical org on the f**king planet - has clearly established that women rape men as frequently as men rape women:
And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).
In other words, if being made to penetrate someone was counted as rape—and why shouldn’t it be?—then the headlines could have focused on a truly sensational CDC finding: that women rape men as often as men rape women.
We’re not the ones living in fantasy land – you are, by either ignorance or malice. Which is your source of gender bigotry and misandry?
Oh shit the MRAs are out in force in this thread 🙄
Real Redditor kinda behaviour going on here tbh.
50 codefendants in a case against one woman? How horrific.
Thank you to the French women doing this. However, since this is France, my biggest worry is this will be shot down with a big red flag/note saying:
How can we fix this when the government keeps protecting the real rapists: minorities
Yeah Western Europe culturally not looking too clever these days re right wing shit. Not that America is doing any better mind.
Whole world is looking quite pathetic right now.
