I started to become interested in feminism over the last few months, but with the last horrifying cases of crimes against women i saw that many feminist women have (reasonably) learned to fear us, or at least, have some resentment towards us (again, reasonably), so, do we have a place in this movement, or we should take a step aside
YES
All misogyny, that obligates women to certain behavior, also obligates men to certain behavior.
Disregarding those expectations and/of hierarchy is absolutely an expression of feminism that you can express.
Appealing to “Well, it impacts you too” is great for what it’s worth, but it misses the point that we should be focused on inequality above and beyond the stuff that impacts you specifically.
It doesn’t miss the point, allowing and encouraging men to engage in traditionally feminine activities like childrearing, domestic work, expressing empathy etc enables the women around them to engage in non traditional behavior.
Inequality is a systems problem, personal behavior and expectations is a personal problem, and both need to be addressed.
I’m well aware. But the reality is, a reply in a feminist community, that focused on mens needs is what got the attention and the up votes. And that prioritisation of men’s interests over women’s is part of the problem.
Feminism includes men, but focusing on men to highlight its importance, sustains the problem feminism exists to address in the first place.
I’m trying to convey that regardless of other people’s expectations, he’s responsible for learning and being critical of his own behavior.
You are absolutely right that male voices and opinions are over represented here.
Looking at the community’s main page, it doesn’t seem like the community is overly focused on men’s interests in the pursuit of gender equality, or that they’re prioritary over women’s. Do you think it is the case?
Interestingly, 90% of the content is posted by a man. Just sayin.
(yes, that would be me)
But I think @ada@ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone makes a great point. I post articles that largely pertain to men in !mensliberation@lemmy.ca, since that’s a feminist space dedicated to men’s voices and highlights how inequity impacts men. To piggyback off their point, and I do realize the irony in me saying this, I think there’s a downside to men driving the conversation in feminist spaces (e.g.: the most upvoted comment ends up being about men). Men already dictate hegemonic beliefs in most spaces in society.
I think this answers the question OP asked, and I don’t think anybody disagreed so far: the answer is yes, but not to detriment of the expression of the voice of women, who are the main victims of gender inequality. And like, even if men agree, we shouldn’t make it all about us, and learn to shut up sometimes.
Is that what you guys meant?
Yes, of course. I’m a man, I was raised to be feminist, I’ve never had anyone tell me men were unwelcome in the feminist movement. That doesn’t mean I’m welcome in every space, though; part of being a male feminists is rejecting the chauvinist idea that my opinion is welcome anywhere and instead listening to the needs of women, including women who don’t trust men die to past traumas.
It’s not much, but I have a shirt with the Marie Shear quote “feminism is the radical notion that women are people” on it. At least twice while wearing it I’ve had agro dudes lose their shit on me about it! I feel for the ladies all the time, and have often felt like I was lucky to be born a man. While it’s not likely, I hope to see this change in our lifetimes. It is absolutely a gentleman’s duty to stand up for, and stand by the fairer sex
If you’ve got privilege, resentment is inevitable, and you need to come to terms with it. If the resentment is sufficient excuse to bow out and choose not to do what you can to work at dismantling that privilege gap, well, the resentment is well earned, because you’re part of the problem.
But if you genuinely understand that resentment of inequality is inevitable, and also essential to drive the dismantling of it, then you’ll find a way of dealing with it, because justified resentment is pretty low on the list of issues that need to be addressed in the moment.
And the thing about privilege, is that the people with it, are the people best positioned to dismantle it. So if you genuinely care about the inequity, that should drive you to stay invested.
Of course, everyone has limited capacity, but even so, you can still choose to make decisions when voting, you can still choose to call out your peers, and you can make sure you don’t steal the stage from folk who lack your privilege.
It’s true of issues around racism, sexism, ableism, financial inequity and anything else where disparity exists. You don’t owe it to throw yourself in everything and burn yourself out, but you can still choose to make good choices on every one of those topics.
Even if you’re not invited to feminist spaces, you can still do the work. And if you are invited, make the most of it, don’t steal the spotlight, and, do the work
well, so i think that the answer is yes, i asked myself that because i saw several women saying (both implicitly or explicitly) that men have no place in feminism, so i felt as if the bouncer approached me and said to me “ok buddy, time to go”, anyway, thank you for teaching me a bit more, this is something cool about this, is like an infinite learning curve
If one has a belief that feminism is a necessary and effective movement, one is obligated to work towards the goal of the movement.
This may or may not be the same thing as participating in specific groups, communities, or actions.
If a given segment of the movement doesn’t want to include men in their activities, respect that and work in other ways.
You’ll likely find that when it comes to taking action, be it via protest, awareness raising, etc, it is very unusual to be excluded. Where you’ll run into exclusion is more on the discussion and theory side of things. And obviously, don’t try and intrude on support spaces.
It’s hard to deal with other’s androphobia but realizing that it’s founded so often in personal experience is kind of the big step a lot of cis guys need. It’s not about making folk feel guilty it’s people stating that these things are problems and brainstorming ways to make things better so in the future there is less fear.
Cis Men are INTEGRAL to this process. So often the reasons things are the way they are isn’t anyone’s individual fault. If your workplace is all guys chances are folk just hired people they knew they would be comfortable around. That’s totally understandable! But If nobody takes the minute to realize that if everybody stays in their comfort zone then society doesn’t change.
A lot of the work of the feminist movement is a shifting target of a multitude of different spaces. Like black feminism and trans feminism had to fission off because certain aspects of privilege were keeping certain voices buried. Where a lot of the discussion is these days is where feminism failed men and they need men’s voices to discuss things in earnest while being understanding and accepting of the trauma that exists in those spaces.
Resounding YES. Gender liberation is for all people. It is impossible to liberate women without also liberating men and people with other genders from the ideologies that harm everyone but most visibly manifest as misogyny. If you act in good faith and don’t recreate sexist dynamics (or stop if you accidentally do) you’re good. Activisty spaces can be cliquey, have messy dynamics or sometimes (unfortunately) be gender essentialist but don’t let that discourage you. This is everyone’s fight.
There’s a mens liberation community if you’re interested in specifically how sexism impacts men. If you’re interested just generally, please stay here and have a poke around, everyone is welcome :)
Grad a copy of bell hooks’ ‘feminism is for everyone’ and see where that takes you
