It’s completely fine to deadname people in the case that you’re telling someone that a trans person goes by a new name. Otherwise you’re playing “Guess who’s trans!” for a painfully awkward five minutes while they list anecdotes about people that you weren’t actually present to witness.
I will second this. So much fun trying to figure out, “Are they a man child?” or “High school teacher who is burnt out from teaching?” or “Would you want to run into this person in a dark alleyway?”
Except that’s not at all what’s happening here. We’re not talking about somebody we know personally with their permission or anything, we’re talking about an actress who got into pornography after having an emotional video go viral many years ago. Her dead name has nothing to do with that, and if you had even left out the fact that she’s trans, most people probably could’ve figured it out if they even bothered to go check out the original video. Abd if they didn’t? It wouldn’t make a difference in their knowledge of the subject. They’d still know that a woman who had an emotional video go viral years ago later became a porn actress. All her dead name adds to this is a possibly paparazzi style invasion of her privacy.
Well yes, that’s why I referred to it as deadnaming. This is the one circumstance where its reasonable to do. Otherwise it leads to unwittingly deadnaming someone to others (or god forbid, to their face).
Dude what are you talking about, yes it is. If they’re publicly out, and you’re not endangering them by doing so, and they havent asked you not to for some reason, it’s absolutely your place to let people know. You’re not stealing their thunder, you’re sparing them from being deadnamed/misgendered by everyone in their social circles and them having to explain it over and over and over. I get where you’re coming from, but have you had any close friends come out publicly as trans? It’s fucking scary and emotionally exhausting, so anything you can do to take some of the load off is incredibly important.
That really isn’t a good blanket policy. Bigots aren’t idiots (well yes they are, but you know what I mean), and they’re perfectly capable of noticing that you’re using nonbinary pronouns for someone and drawing the correct conclusion. Outing someone by omission is still outing them, even if your intentions were as pure as possible, and nobody stays in the closet without a good reason.
Pronouns are independent of using someone’s deadname.
I do admit I probably should have checked to see what Cara’s pronouns are (apologies if they are not she/her). But my general rule of thumb is that if we are talking about someone transitioning and people being weird about it: Assume they use whatever pronouns they present as until told otherwise. Because in that context, using gender neutral-ish pronouns (because “they/them” very much highlights the limits of the English language) implies they are something in between.
I was going to go into explaining how there is a very big difference between “Hey, remember Steve? We hung out together a few years back? She is Susie now” and “Hey this random person none of us ever met used to be a dude!”
But you have made it abundantly clear that you think there is an obligation for people to warn people about who is trans and who isn’t. So… go fuck yourself, transphobe.
Yeeees, I do in fact think people should be “warned” (that is, told in advance that someone is trans so they do not unintentionally hurt said person) when someone has come out publicly. That’s a big part of the reason people come out, to get acceptance of who they are from their community. If we want to swap specious arguments, I think the real question is why you think trans people should stay hidden and unrecognized?
Cara is a public figure, and she was quite famous back in the day. Coming out as trans hasn’t erased her personal history, and unless we want to play a game of Celebrity Gender Reveal, the only way to tell people that this public figure goes by a new name and uses new pronouns is to use their old name. I’ll concede the title is poorly worded, but just referencing a widely duplicated meme they were in once isn’t sufficent to identify them.
And we really need out & proud trans celebrities. We need people who aren’t ashamed of who they are and who they were to show the bigots of the world that we’re not afraid of them, that we’re not the weird boogymen they claim we are. To show scared trans kids what the hate they will doubtlessly face looks like and to show them that they do not have to face it alone. And if someone chooses to stay in the closet I will love and support them exactly the same as I will anyone else in the LGBT community, because that is an absolutely valid choice too.
You’re lashing out because you’re soundly losing an argument online, and that makes us all back up our opinions even more fervently than before. But please don’t hurl hurtful accusations at someone else just to make yourself feel better. At worst you’ll push someone ever closer to the edge of the Cliff of Bigotry, and at best you say this comical shit to someone thats been threatened, stalked, beaten, shot at, stabbed and endlessly teargassed fighting for queer & trans rights. And that doesn’t really get a rise out of them, it just makes you look like a bit of a twerp.
“It’s completely fine” by who? Most trans people do not want to be referred to by their deadname - especially in the way this title phrases it. Most people wouldn’t know the deadname anyway, everyone just knew her from the “Leave Britney alone” video. To clarify, the title could easily have mentioned she’s trans but to just throw out the deadname especially phrased in such a way is just ignorant and harmful, regardless of intent.
It’s completely fine to deadname people in the case that you’re telling someone that a trans person goes by a new name. Otherwise you’re playing “Guess who’s trans!” for a painfully awkward five minutes while they list anecdotes about people that you weren’t actually present to witness.
I’m just imagining the classic Hasbro game Guess Who except it’s the most fucked up version there is.
Vibes based guess who is actually a blast.
I will second this. So much fun trying to figure out, “Are they a man child?” or “High school teacher who is burnt out from teaching?” or “Would you want to run into this person in a dark alleyway?”
“Does your person have a penis?”
“Uhh…”
Except that’s not at all what’s happening here. We’re not talking about somebody we know personally with their permission or anything, we’re talking about an actress who got into pornography after having an emotional video go viral many years ago. Her dead name has nothing to do with that, and if you had even left out the fact that she’s trans, most people probably could’ve figured it out if they even bothered to go check out the original video. Abd if they didn’t? It wouldn’t make a difference in their knowledge of the subject. They’d still know that a woman who had an emotional video go viral years ago later became a porn actress. All her dead name adds to this is a possibly paparazzi style invasion of her privacy.
This thread is already “guess who’s trans” and is the definition of deadnaming.
No it isn’t, because her old name is in the title. That is not what deadnaming is.
Well yes, that’s why I referred to it as deadnaming. This is the one circumstance where its reasonable to do. Otherwise it leads to unwittingly deadnaming someone to others (or god forbid, to their face).
The one circumstance where it is okay is when you want to deadname someone?
The only interesting fact here is that someone transitioned into who they actually are.
Alright, there’s no way we’re actually opposed people here. How do you tell others that someone has transitioned?
I don’t because it is not my place to tell.
That said: porn star Cara Cunningham was the star of the leave Britney alone meme.
Dude what are you talking about, yes it is. If they’re publicly out, and you’re not endangering them by doing so, and they havent asked you not to for some reason, it’s absolutely your place to let people know. You’re not stealing their thunder, you’re sparing them from being deadnamed/misgendered by everyone in their social circles and them having to explain it over and over and over. I get where you’re coming from, but have you had any close friends come out publicly as trans? It’s fucking scary and emotionally exhausting, so anything you can do to take some of the load off is incredibly important.
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That really isn’t a good blanket policy. Bigots aren’t idiots (well yes they are, but you know what I mean), and they’re perfectly capable of noticing that you’re using nonbinary pronouns for someone and drawing the correct conclusion. Outing someone by omission is still outing them, even if your intentions were as pure as possible, and nobody stays in the closet without a good reason.
Pronouns are independent of using someone’s deadname.
I do admit I probably should have checked to see what Cara’s pronouns are (apologies if they are not she/her). But my general rule of thumb is that if we are talking about someone transitioning and people being weird about it: Assume they use whatever pronouns they present as until told otherwise. Because in that context, using gender neutral-ish pronouns (because “they/them” very much highlights the limits of the English language) implies they are something in between.
I was going to go into explaining how there is a very big difference between “Hey, remember Steve? We hung out together a few years back? She is Susie now” and “Hey this random person none of us ever met used to be a dude!”
But you have made it abundantly clear that you think there is an obligation for people to warn people about who is trans and who isn’t. So… go fuck yourself, transphobe.
Yeeees, I do in fact think people should be “warned” (that is, told in advance that someone is trans so they do not unintentionally hurt said person) when someone has come out publicly. That’s a big part of the reason people come out, to get acceptance of who they are from their community. If we want to swap specious arguments, I think the real question is why you think trans people should stay hidden and unrecognized?
Cara is a public figure, and she was quite famous back in the day. Coming out as trans hasn’t erased her personal history, and unless we want to play a game of Celebrity Gender Reveal, the only way to tell people that this public figure goes by a new name and uses new pronouns is to use their old name. I’ll concede the title is poorly worded, but just referencing a widely duplicated meme they were in once isn’t sufficent to identify them.
And we really need out & proud trans celebrities. We need people who aren’t ashamed of who they are and who they were to show the bigots of the world that we’re not afraid of them, that we’re not the weird boogymen they claim we are. To show scared trans kids what the hate they will doubtlessly face looks like and to show them that they do not have to face it alone. And if someone chooses to stay in the closet I will love and support them exactly the same as I will anyone else in the LGBT community, because that is an absolutely valid choice too.
You’re lashing out because you’re soundly losing an argument online, and that makes us all back up our opinions even more fervently than before. But please don’t hurl hurtful accusations at someone else just to make yourself feel better. At worst you’ll push someone ever closer to the edge of the Cliff of Bigotry, and at best you say this comical shit to someone thats been threatened, stalked, beaten, shot at, stabbed and endlessly teargassed fighting for queer & trans rights. And that doesn’t really get a rise out of them, it just makes you look like a bit of a twerp.
“It’s completely fine” by who? Most trans people do not want to be referred to by their deadname - especially in the way this title phrases it. Most people wouldn’t know the deadname anyway, everyone just knew her from the “Leave Britney alone” video. To clarify, the title could easily have mentioned she’s trans but to just throw out the deadname especially phrased in such a way is just ignorant and harmful, regardless of intent.