Forces had no direct confrontation with Hamas terrorists who killed hostages; ‘The IDF and security forces are doing everything possible to bring all hostages home as quickly as possible. This news shakes us all,’ says army spokesperson Hagari
Israeli forces discovered the bodies of six hostages in a 65-foot-deep tunnel in Rafah, approximately a kilometer from where hostage Farhan Alkadi was recently freed. The IDF had no precise intelligence on the hostages’ location in recent months but knew there were captives in the sector, leading to a gradual and cautious operation in Rafah since the ground offensive began.
These people might have been alive if we had a ceasefire. But no, Netanyahu’s political career is more important.
They could have had all the hostages back in October. Hamas just wanted back the hostages that Israel holds.
And again, they could have had all the hostages back in May.
Netanyahu seems committed to genocide and the hostages are collateral damage.
It’s deranged and I am ashamed our western leaders are cheerleading this.
Hamas didn’t just want hostages back in October, but let’s not get derailed, yes it’s true that the Israelis could have stopped the war at many occasions.
“Civilian” hostages. Israel has compulsory military service. And a reasonable chunk of those taken hostage were active or reservist military members.
So no, not all.
Without a military intervention it is implied Hamas wants to trade the IDF active duty military hostages for Palestinian hostages in a to be decided deal.
A “to be decided deal” isn’t an offered deal.
Some Palestinian children and international aid workers are going to pay dearly for this.
There’s apparently a very rancorous debate in Israeli politics right now about accepting a ceasefire and a lot of people are angry that they’re not making more concessions to get a ceasefire.
It’s blatantly clear that Netanyahu has no desire to rescue the hostages.
These people might have been alive if they had never been kidnapped by palestinians.
Sure, but how far back do you want to take the causal chain?
I propose we take it as far back as it is possible to avoid future repetitions. So, a ceasefire for now. A just peace with dismantling of occupation and apartheid for next.
So says the IDF, anyway. I’ll believe it when someone independent confirms it.
It’s no mental stretch to believe idf would kill their own to further the genocide agenda.
Considering they already have, multiple times, I guess I could agree with you
Yeah, it seems more the IDF is just shooting literally anything human-shaped. Aid workers, friendlies, journalists, civilians, in addition to the odd actual “guy actually shooting at us”.
I did read an article though that the most current attack on aid had been taken over or ambushed by people with weapons. Not defending IDF for their genocide and terrorism, but the aid group said so apparently for this most recent attack on aid conveys, although there have been dozens.
Also, condemning genocide and apartheid occupation does not mean support for a terrorist organization like Hamas, but it can be argued they treat their prisoners and hostages better than Israel.
It takes a terrorist like Netanyahu to fund another terrorist organization like Hamas.
After all, if the hostages are already dead no need for a ceasefire.
I don’t think they intentionally would, but indiscriminate bombing has the tendency to create unintentional deaths for everyone involved.
says army spokesperson Hagari
99% chance that it’s either a complete fabrication or a distortion of the truth when an IDF spokesperson is the ONLY source. Let’s see if anyone even remotely reliable confirms the story.
While I agree with you that independent verification is mandatory in situations like this, I also believe that once you get that verification, your position will not change. You have only given yourself a 1% chance of changing your stance, which means, in my opinion, that the only refuge you are offering yourself is conspiracism if and when you are proven wrong.
I suspect the conspiracy will be “Israel killed the hostages themselves.”
once you get that verification, your position will not change.
False.
You have only given yourself a 1% chance of changing your stance
No. I have given a very generous 1% chance of something said ONLY by an IDF spokesperson being the unvarnished truth. The concurrence of other sources would of course dramatically increase that chance, especially if any of them are themselves very reliable.
in my opinion, that the only refuge you are offering yourself is conspiracism if and when you are proven wrong.
That’s a very weird way to guess wrong.
I suspect the conspiracy will be “Israel killed the hostages themselves”
Wouldn’t be the first time or the last. That’s not a conspiracy theory at this point, though, just what’s most likely given the past behavior of all of the factions involved 🤷
I’m reserving final judgment until people of greater reliability than the likes of Donald Trump, Baghdad Bob, or Alex Jones chime in, though.
You don’t see how automatically trusting the captors until proven otherwise is already evidence of how much you have embraced conspiricism?
I’m not saying that I trust Hamas. For the record, I don’t.
I’m just saying that I don’t trust the IDF either, infamous as they are for being caught lying constantly.
Right, but you know hamas believes jews should be wiped from this earth, and you know this current war began because of specific steps Hamas chose to take to attempt to make that goal a reality, you know the mistreatment they have displayed towards the hostages.
So for you to say that there is a 99% chance that Hamas is innocent of these killings, that’s a specific choice you are making for conspiricism.
Right, but you know hamas believes jews should be wiped from this earth,
That’s irrelevant. They’re not in a position where doing so is possible, and killing their only leverage against a technologically and numerically superior force is not in their interest.
The Israeli people thinking that they did, on the other hand, is VERY much in the interest of the IDF.
you know this current war began because of specific steps Hamas chose to take to attempt to make that goal a reality
Nope. Atrocious and barbaric beyond description as it was, October 7th was a political act, not a foolhardy attempt to kill all Jewish people.
Just because they’re despicable terrorists doesn’t mean that Hamas are stupid enough to think that the total eradication of all Israeli Jews, let alone all Jews worldwide, is something that is in any way possible.
And it’s not a war. It’s one of the biggest, most powerful, and most technologically advanced militaries in the history of humanity eradicating or displacing an entire people, using a tiny minority (that is nowhere near as much a threat as they pretend) as a pretense.
you know the mistreatment they have displayed towards the hostages.
Talking about Hamas or Israel? Because the only significant differences with regards to hostages is that Israel has hundreds if not thousands as many that they abuse just as horribly as Hamas does theirs.
So for you to say that there is a 99% chance that Hamas is innocent of these killings
Again ignoring the qualifier, so I’m gonna make it a little more obvious:
As long as an IDF spokesperson is the ONLY source
that’s a specific choice you are making for conspiricism.
Nope, that’s a statement of how unreliable the IDF and their spokespeople have proven themselves to be. Repeatedly leaving out that part, though? THAT’S a specific choice.
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No, Hamas, beliefs and actions are not irrelevant to the situation we are currently in. That is foolish.
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Describing terrorists committing a terrorist act as a “political” action is incredibly forgiving of the behavior of terrorists.
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An elected government invading and attacking a different country is an act of war, regardless of whether the nation they attacked is militarily superior. Hamas made a decision to go to war, and claiming they didn’t is factually wrong.
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I don’t personally feel any need to justify the behavior of any right wing religious fundamentalist organization against their hostages. The fact that we are in a situation where two organizations fitting that description are behaving badly and you have chosen a side says something about you that it doesn’t me.
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Islam prophet died and the only possession he had was a shield owned by his jew neighbour.
Any person of faith, including hamas, dont believe in “Jewish genocide” it goes against the religion.
So you trust none of the firsthand sources, but somehow still think you’re enlightened to what’s going on?
I trust journalists that have proven themselves reliable, even as that puts them directly in the crosshairs of the genocidal apartheid regime.
somehow still think you’re enlightened
Never claimed any such thing. Please stow your strawman.
Both have proven track record of genocidal tendencies. Both are proven terrorists even if only one of them is a designated terrorist organisation.
So taking any statement made by any of them unverified with a boat load of salt is not only prudent it is necessary.
I suspect the conspiracy will be “Israel killed the hostages themselves.”
So your evidence of the conspiracy that Israel’s policy is to murder hostages themselves to frame Hamas is that 9 months ago an Israeli unit killed 3 hostages while not realizing they were hostages?
That’s pretty weak justification to align yourself on the side of Hamas here. I think you know that though.
It’s more about their inability to respect the most recognizable sign of surrender. The problem is you think any criticism of the IDF is alignment with Hamas. These are people being murdered, pull your head out of your ass.
…I’m not a supporter of the IDF.
Di you want to understand the argument being made before choosing to argue against it?
After reading through your post history, all I can say is “Bullshit.”
You shpuld have no trouble finding a single positive word against the IDF then.
What a terrible article. What is the source or evidence the hostages were executed? People are saying it’s a claim by the IDF but it’s not even attributed to them. From reading the article I have no idea who is making this claim or how it is supported. That’s not how journalism works.
So much angst about unreliable sources here, but we’re letting this fly?
Edit: Here is a better summary of the available source information. It is coming from the IDF, but they haven’t really said much other than it was obvious to them Hamas was the culprit. We’ll have to see what further information they release.
What is the source or evidence the hostages were executed?
They released an autopsy. What the frack do people want?
A link to it? Lol
Let’s be real, if you had a link to the autopsy you wouldn’t change your mind. You haven’t decided your beliefs based upon evidence; why would you change them based on it?
On Sunday, following the return of the bodies, an autopsy revealed he and the other five hostages had been shot at close range within 48 hours before Israeli forces arrived and recovered the bodies in a tunnel under Gaza.
I think you’re arguing with a person in your imagination more than with me.
What exactly do you think I won’t change my mind on? That the article posted was of poor quality? If so, that’s true. It should have presented the available evidence clearly and indicated its sourcing. I am interested in additional information, but it’s not relevant to my original assessment.
I am interested in additional information, but it’s not relevant to my original assessment.
That means you’re not interested in additional information. Did you look at the quote in the Reuter’s article?
I read the article. But it’s a separate article so it has little bearing on the quality of the one OP posted here. How do you feel it’s relevant?
What is the source or evidence the hostages were executed?
You asked this question. The article directly answers it. Hamas killed those hostages.
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with how happy the IDF has been with killing the hostage themselves so far, I have a hard time believing it. Could it have happened? Sure. Did it? Since the IDF says it did, it’s much more likely that it didn’t.
“Hamas could never do something like this. Kidnap and take hostages? Sure. But they would never cross this line. They are the good guys.”
Fuck off.
not what I said at all. you fuck off and learn to read first.
Oh, were you not insinuating that a terrorist organization could be capable of murdering hostages?
i wasn’t insinuating anything. i openly said that a terrorist organization is capable and happy to kill the hostages.
I also said it is possible that Hamas has done it because they’re also terrorists.
but whenever IDF says something happened it’s more than likely it hasn’t.
So until Hamas confirms the claims, you are just going to not trust that they did this?
yes, that’s my general attitude toward liars who lie all the time.
Defending the innocence of a right wing Islamic fundamentalist terrorist organization is absolutely bonkers.
It doesn’t really make sense for them to destroy what little leverage they have like that.
Ahh, I see the problem now. You then that Hamas terrorists are sane and not religious extremist nut jobs.
The original attack on October 7th didn’t really make sense from a strategic standpoint. Hamas hasn’t gained anything in the past 11 months, and I don’t think the hostages actually give them any leverage against the campaign of genocide the IDF is waging.
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Thank you very much, kind stranger
“Hostages found bludgeoned to death with rubble in tunnel that was liberated by IDF bombs.”
The IDF and security forces are doing everything possible to bring all hostages home as quickly as possible.
Then apparently a ceasefire isn’t “possible”. STFU, Hagari.
‘Quick, bomb more civilian choke points!’
absolutely love how tankies in here are somehow turning this around to be Israels fault
Apparently nowadays anybody who’s not a full blown Genocidal ethno-Fascist who approves when “their” people mass murder “human animal” children is a tankie.
It’s like how anything left of center used to be deemed Communism in America, with the main difference that this is the ethno-Fascist (the most far-right violent kind of ideology there is) version so anything less than strong approval of ethnic Genocide is deemed Tankie.
You’re writing this under a Post of “your” people killing hostages. So if you don’t support “your” people mass murdering “human animals”, you should actually agree with me.
You’re the one spouting tribalist shit - clearly you see Zionists as “your” people.
Tribalists always think those who are against the actions of “their” group or do not trust the words from the leaders of "their"group must do so because they support some “other”, enemy people - a posture you consistently displayed in the way you tried “othering” critics of your favorite mass murderers on your first post by accusing them of being Authoritarian Communists and are trying to do the same to me on this post by implying I support Hamas.
Either you’re too limited in your humanity to be aware that normal human beings generally hold Humanist Principles which are independent of tribe (such as “though shall not mass murder people because of their ethnicity”) and hence their criticism is based on the character the words and actions of those they criticise (rather than be like you and put “side” above everything else including one’s humanity), or you’re just too lazy and repeatedly use the very old, very traditional Fascist “line of attack” (especially beloved of ethno-Facists such as Nazis and Zionists) of accusing critics of being part of some “out group” which the Fascists deem an enemy.
Oh really? I just stated neutrally that “Hamas killing civillians is Bad and none other than Hamas’ fault.”
You had to show up and make it all about teams justifying things.
Stop trying to gaslight me
Your whole post that started this thread is:
absolutely love how tankies in here are somehow turning this around to be Israels fault
So just now you outright lied when your wrote:
I just stated neutrally that “Hamas killing civillians is Bad and none other than Hamas’ fault.”
Further, a person with a bunch of flags on their profile (for the record and in case you change it the flags are of Ukranie, EU, Taiwan and Israel) claiming they’re not about “teams” is either a ridiculously self-deluded person or a shameless liar. People don’t go around parading their favorite nations or blocks of nations when they’re not into supporting “teams”.
“This is Hamas Fault and Hamas’ alone, no matter what tankies try to tell you”
Yes, both messages are the same. I’m the first I’m explicitly warning of a group trying to twist the narrative, but they’re the same.
No, you can absolutely be neutral and have Flags and not be on Teams The EU Is my Team, the others are not. The others are symbols of who I think is innocent (or in the case of the middle east: less guilty)
I mean, I still hang up the Pride Flag during Pride Month, despite not being gay or anyhoe related to them or “on their team” simply because I, from my neutral position, have decided that their Position is the one I deem more “just”
It is classic to label and insult people with no value to discuss the main topic at hand. Especially when you call their hypocrisy of response in supporting Ukraine self determination and fight against Russia and their genocidal, demonic, support of killing innocent children in Gaza.
It’s a very traditional Fascist technique (not only theirs but, damn, they do love it), to deem criticism of their actions to be motivated by the critics supporting an “enemy” side.
I’m not certain if that’s because they’re intellectually or emotionally unable to conceive that people can judge words and actions without putting “side” as the top criteria and hence will criticize equally what they see as wrong and point out relentless lying from specifc actors independently of “side”, if that’s because that’s just the kind of argumentation Fascists get indoctrinated/teached to use, or both.
There is no inconsistency in their posture towards Russia and their posture towards Israel for somebody unable to conceive of any judgement criteria more important than “what is their side”, since for them tribe is more important than everything and thus excuses everything, even mass murder of chidren.
Unsusprisingly, Zionist arguments are incredibly similar to the ones from the Nazis, including this beautiful example I commented on in my previous post, were the critics were deemed to be Communists, EXACTLY LIKE THE NAZIS used to do.
Yeah, like… Somehow people are forgetting the terrorist organization that created the situation isreal is using as an excuse to commit genocide IS STILL A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION. I feel like people are projecting the US dem vs repub conflict on this, and feeling like because one side is bad the other side has to be good, rite? But in reality it’s just a whole lotta murder. Pretty one sided sure but it’s not like they’re killing hostages in self defense. Not out here trying to be both siding but trying to look at things objectively and realistically and for some reason writing it as a public comment so people can yell at me for being antisemitic and antisemites can yell at me for not being antisemitic.
Says the guy who clearly doesn’t know the foundational Israeli military groups who would later become the actual Israeli military were avowed terrorist organizations who routinely bombed civilians and murdered Muslims for being Muslim and against Israeli terror.
You speak out of my heart right now. I couldn’t have put it into better words.
It got so bad, that I once saw a Comment unironically advocating for the genocide of all Israelis having 200 + upvotes. This was when I put the Israel flag into my Profile.
I’ll let you in on a secret: The Israel Flag in my Profile? I’m actually very conflicted about Israel. But the way I was seeing Israel unrightfully being bashed, the Hamas terror organization advocating for the literal text-book-definition genocide of Israelis praised, I just felt I had to put it in there.
Anyways, yeah, I wish we could have civilized discussions about this. But I am afraid this isn’t possible. For whatever reason, civilized political discussions aren’t possible anymore in the english-speaking internet (the Swiss Internet is still somewhat uninfected, but it also seems to be getting worse sadly)
I wish I could just block politics in general, but I don’t want to let the genocide-advocates to reign unopposed. I don’t want their opinions to seem in any way acceptable.
But you’re advocating for genocide?
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Isreal is doing one so yes you are
Taking Israel’s side is like taking Russia’s side.
Both are objectively doing the same thing.
That is the Tankie position. End justifies the means. Fascism is justified.
It’s you.
awful take
gaslighting a Nation into thinking they’re at fault for you killing their people is fucking awful
Do you also think that the US is responsible for 9/11?
Or Russia is at fault for the Terror Attack on the Opera recently?
No, trying to twist the truth so that the anti-western side is the good one, trying to defend them, that is the real tankie stance
The US knew that a major attack was being planned by bin laden months before 9/11. Bush, purposefully or ignorantly, ignored or minimized these warnings directly leading to the attack.
There’s also the aspect of it where the US funded and trained bin Laden prior to the attack because he was useful to us in the 80’s.
And the US warned Russia of the Moscow Attack
Does that mean that the US/Russia is responsible for the Terror attack against them?
Please don’t talk around it. “I think that yes/no [because …]”
Because I think that Terror Attacks are always the fault of the Terrorists killing people
The same way I think that incidents of rape are always the fault of the rapist and never the victim.
Terrorism is politics by other means.
If you deny a people redress of grievances, say by refusing to participate in the international criminal court, you can’t be surprised when desperate people act out of desperation.
One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.
I’m not saying that it’s right, but it certainly didn’t justify the 20 years we spent playing in the desert, nor the genocide Israel is commiting on the Palestinians now.
If you have explicit knowledge that can save peoples lives and you choose not to act on it then yes you’re directly responsible for that loss of life.
Pretty sure my take is the opposite.
But yeah if you think that we were blameless on 9/11 disregards the history of US foreign politicy.
And Israel? Pretty sure that the last 70 years of illegal occupation had nothing to do with October 7th, right? Or “self defense” lasting 11 months? Getting pretty close to operation Iraqi Freedom there bud.
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Um genocide is bad?
The hostages seem like the only bargaining chip they have (not that it’s much of a bargaining chip), so I’m surprised they’re doing it. Maybe they’ve decided that it isn’t worth it.
I put as much faith in this as I do the hospital tunnel story.
Anything the IDF says is to be treated as bunk without at least 2 corroborating sources. The IDF lies like they breathe, so I’m more willing to assume they killed the hostages to make Hamas look bad than anything they actually say.
It’s entirely possible this is total nonsense, but I could also see them realizing that keeping them alive was an exercise in futility and, as I suggested in another comment, a waste of precious resources like food.
Oh, don’t get me wrong, it could maybe possibly be true. We’re just getting it from a serial liar, so the message is untrustworthy on its face.
I’ll be extremely saddened if I’m wrong here, because those people didn’t deserve this. But given Israel’s long history of blatant lies in the name of PR against anything Palestinian, I’m not going to believe it until a credible source backs up their statement.
Israeli history isn’t even a necessary consideration. The messaging of any warfighting party should always be taken with appropriate caution.
If someone is willing to wage war to achieve their goals, some propaganda efforts are certainly not out of the question. Factuality cannot really be confirmed until after the war is over, and the area becomes safe for neutral parties to visit. Active warzones are just not fountains of factual and verifiable reporting though.
It’s been confirmed multiple times from multiple sources that Gaza’s largest hospitals are connected to Hamas’ tunnel network. The UNWRA, various doctor groups and various media outlets had reported it prior to this most recent conflict.
For someone moderately or more paying attention there should have been no reason to doubt those claims from the IDF; not just because they cane with nominally verifiable audio and video evidence. But also because Hamas has never refuted claims about its use of its tunnel network in and around hospitals, schools and other civilian infrastructure.
No one doubts the existence of the tunnels, because Israel made them. What is unconfirmed, and frankly bullshit, is how much those are utilized and whether the propaganda put out by Israel about the headquarters is true. (Hint: it’s propaganda to make useful idiots support the terror that the Israeli state is imposing in the Palestinian people). Also, let’s not forget the hilariously bad video they put out as “”“proof”“” from months before.
So yeah, try harder to push your propaganda, because you kinda suck at it.
Also, let’s not forget the hilariously bad video they put out as “”“proof”“” from months before.
“They” in this case was a random Twitter account chasing clout.
The IDF invited NBC and other news organizations to tour the tunnels they found. Along with a bunch of other proof of their usage.
Maybe the problem is that you look at random Twitter accounts chasing clout as legitimate sources. There’s a ton of these clout fiends talking shit on both sides sharing false or doctored video.
Oh yeah, the Other debunked tunnel propaganda . My bad, it’s so hard to keep all of this propaganda straight.
And lol, NBC was one of the many cheerleaders for the Iraq war, maybe don’t use argument to authority fallacies when you’re using a source that’s perpetuated state propaganda before.
Probably frustration and despair. If your bargaining chip can’t get you a bargain, all they’re worth is ‘revenge’ against your opponent.
What a fucked situation.
Thinking on it, it was probably also costing them what are now valuable resources to keep them alive. When it’s near impossible to get in and out of Gaza, food, medicine, etc. are worth their weight in gold.
If you don’t have the resources to provide for your POWs, the correct solution is parole, not execution.
Hamas are terrorists. They work through terror.
How would you propose safely paroling them? There’s already examples of released hostages then being killed by the IDF.
Any type of parole has to be at least marginally less dangerous for the hostage than execution.
If they die either way, no it isn’t.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Alon_Shamriz,_Yotam_Haim,_and_Samer_Talalka
On 15 December 2023, Israel Defense Forces (IDF) soldiers operating in Shuja’iyya, Gaza as part of the Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip killed three Israeli hostages taken during the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel. The hostages, who were trying to be rescued, were visibly unarmed and shirtless and waving a makeshift white flag when they were killed.
Sounds equally dangerous to me.
Execution has a kill rate of 100%.
Even if paroling is stupidly risky, the ods of death are still <100%.
It would also be seen positively by everyone and one propaganda piece less for Israel to use.
Let’s argue with reason and not pretend that because it has happened before it will happen every single time. Cock-ups happen everywhere.
Historically you’ve shipped them to a neutral nation (like Switzerland) who negotiated their return to their home country on the condition that they not be allowed to rejoin the war effort either for the duration of the war or for a specific time.
None of these things are solutions that haven’t been seen before.
Depending on how recently they were executed, it makes perfect sense. As the one holding hostages, you want to set the precedent that the only way to get them out alive is via negotiation.
They died recently enough for the bodies to be quickly identifiable. No DNA tests necessary or anything apparently.
Hamas is trying to keep as many alive as they can.
But (a) 2000 pound bunker busters don’t discriminate between Palestinians and Israelis and (b) if the IDF comes too close to the hostages, their guards have to decide whether to let them go alive or to kill them.
In the case of the Druze guy, I can definitely see Hamas choosing not to kill him. But in cases of Israelis who also served in the IDF, the rational choice is to kill them instead of giving the IDF a propaganda win.
And finally, sometimes the IDF probably accidentally kills them and tries to blame Hamas if they can get away with it.
But in cases of Israelis who also served in the IDF, the rational choice is to kill them instead of giving the IDF a propaganda win.
This is a war crime. You can’t execute POWs just because the enemy is getting close to the POW camp.
They aren’t combatants or PoW, taking them hostage was a human rights violation from the beginning.
But Israel can’t really expect Hamas to follow Geneva conventions when they themselves violate it a hundreds times as often.
But Israel can’t really expect Hamas to follow Geneva conventions when they themselves violate it a hundreds times as often.
This is a massively false statement. And it’s one that should make you reconsider your viewpoint from the ground up.
I don’t know if a more incorrect statement could be made about this conflict.
Is Hamas even that disciplined to act as a unified front? Management or soldiers on the site could’ve decided themselves to take a revenge on hostages. Especially if they knew they are cornered and there were no use of keeping them alive if they are deadmen too.
Based on accounts from hostages who have been freed, Hamas is at least more disciplined than the IDF
Sounds like they were retreating from the area, and didn’t want to bring the hostages with them. In this case, executing the hostages makes strategic sense, as it reinforces the threat that you are willing to do so.
It would be smarter for them to bring the hostages with them to keep their bargaining chips. You may be right but I’m putting my money on the IDF killing them with bombs and blaming Hamas until another restorer says something. Unfortunately, the IDF keeps killing all the journalists for some reason…
When the IDF rescued the only 4 hostages they did, they killed 300+ mostly women and kids including some more of their own hostages.
So that’s why probably it was a no brainer for Hamas to indeed just execute them as soon as they figured they would be found, to save the lives of hundrends of innocents
Why would the IDF’s response be weaker if the hostages are dead?
so your solution to save the hostages and to end the bloodshed is for the IDF to kill and bomb more? I don’t get your question
I don’t know what the best solution is, or even understand your logic… that’s why I’m asking.
There is one obvious solution. You ready for it? Israel should just become a normal country. No more aparthied, no more 99:1% imprisonment ratio for palestinians without trails, no more raping prisoners to death, no more 6 tons dumb bombing the most densly populated area with average age of 19 (btw the average age is 19 there for many reasons including the land\air\sea besieging, and polluted drinking water, and regularly air striking civilians there aka “mowing the lawn”), no more burning 300+ refugees to death because a “terrorist was hiding there”, no more war crimes (I should repeat the last one a thousand times), no more killing people waving flags, no more killing a 6 yr old next to her family and watching her starve to death for a week while killing anyone and bombing any ambulance that tried to come close to help, no more illegal settlements… bro you get the idea… just things all other countries in the world do because right now Israel is a colonizing genocidal aparthied. and it can either stay the indoctronated country that continues to commit unspeakable crimes against humanity by exercising more killing and colonizing and genocide and oppression with US tax money and support of Western values and weapons, Ooooooor it can intiate to treat and give palestinians their rights and lands and live in peace without the killing and nazification and bombing and besieging and illegal colonizing and all.
Sure, that’s reasonable. But I’m trying to understand Hamas’ logic for these executions; they can’t just make Israel act normal all of a sudden.
I would have thought returning them would be the no brainer.
Sickening…
@Threeme2189@sh.itjust.works This reply getting downvoted shows Lemmy political opinions pretty well
I downvoted it for two reasons. One, it doesn’t contribute to discussion, and two, it’s telling you how to feel, like how Trump’s tweets ending in “Sad!”.
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Narrated by Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that `Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).
You’re the one who brought up Nazis my friend
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“The left” blames Hamas for the kidnapping and murder of these innocent Israeli hostages, because they’re the ones who did it.
“The left” blames the Israeli government for the murder of 186,000 innocent Palestinian civilians, because they’re the ones who did it.Do you get it now?
The top comments on this post alternate between blaming Israel, claiming the IDF accidentally killed the hostages and blamed Hamas, and claiming the IDF executed the hostages themselves as a psyop.
There is clearly a huge portion of liberals that have extreme issues when it comes to treating this conflict with any sort of nuance or objectivety. They see the conflict primarily though the lens of the US culture wars, are extremely comfortable with declaring themselves informed after reading a few curated social media posts and watching a John Oliver video, and are extremely confident that anyone who disagrees with them is either morally or intellectually inferior.
That mentality works fine when you’re dealing with straightforward issues like legalizing weed or trans bathroom laws, but completely fails here. Geopolitics in general is extremely complicated, the middle east is a particularly complicated issue for geopolitics, and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a particularly complicated issue for the middle east. Despite all this you have people running around with an extreme amount of self assurance that their barely informed zero nuance outlook is unquestionably correct. It’s absolutely insufferable.
Because Israel has already proven themselves untrustworthy, even if what this story is reporting is credible on its own.
Israel has the full force of American military support against a nation and a people who’ve been systematically oppressed for 70 years. They bear the responsibility for the outcome of this conflict far more than any other.
What sort of nuance and objectivity would you like to see from the huge portion of liberals you mentioned?
I feel that this is not an honest question, but an attempt for me to state more concrete positions which you will then attack me for using misinformation and bad faith emotional arguments. I’m guessing it’ll be in the form of going bullet point by bullet point, and then with some witty last sentence implying I’m a bad person or a mossad sock puppet.
I’ll state a few obvious ones, in case I’m wrong
- The phrases “intifadah revolution” and “from river to the sea” are blantant antisemitic dog whistles. They are direct references to previous attempts to destroy Israel and terror attacks on Jews worldwide. Despite this, they are still ultimately accepted in liberal circles
- Liberals repeatedly refer to Israel as a European colonial ethnostate state. This is extremely misleading on multiple aspects. The most notable is 22 percent of the Israeli population is Arab, while the largest ethnic subgroup of Jews are mizrahi Jews.
- I’ve heard the Nakba mentioned a million times, but I never hear discussion about how basically every Arab state forced their entire Jewish population into Israel via violence and ethnic cleansing. Hence the reason for the large Mizrahi Jewish population
- College campuses have handled antisemitism claims with kid gloves, because the antisemitism comes from progressive coded groups. Their response would have been completely different if conservative groups were acting in the same way, or if black, Asian, or queer folks were targeted in a similar manner.
an attempt for me to state more concrete positions
It is exactly this. You attack “the left” and “liberals” as though they are the same thing (they very much are not) without mentioning anything specific, so it’s hard for me (the left; not a liberal) to defend any position. I suspected a bunch of implied strawman fallacies was hidden behind this hand-waving and frankly I think this is a cowardly way to argue your point. So let’s do the bullet points.
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“From the river to the sea” is not a blatant anything. Yes, it has been used by Hamas, but it has also been used by Likud, for basically the opposite meaning. Therefore context must be absolutely appropriate in the understanding of the intent of the words. If a person or group who are in favour of Palestinian sovereignty and/or a single-state solution use the phrase, you can quite fairly assume that they are talking about this issue, rather than calling for the extermination of an ethnic group. It’s dishonest in the extreme to label anyone who calls for Palestinians to be free an antisemite. As for the other phrase you mentioned, it seems like you are saying anyone who mentions an intifada is antisemitic. That seems ridiculous, and possibly you need to give more context.
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Israel is an apartheid regime. It is a settler colonial project. It meets these definitions, and either you’re for settler colonialism or you’re against Israel in its current manifestation.
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The reason you’ve not heard about other states doing other things is because we are talking about Israel, and the ways in which Arabic people are opressed there. The mistreatment of Jewish people in other places at other times does not pardon or imply permission for the mistreatment of Arabs anywhere.
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It’s not about being “progressive coded”. It’s context, again. If a group’s aim is to restore human rights for people, and/or oversee equality then any accusation of racism should be considered with this context. Conversely, an organisation which has historically made horrific racist/homophobic statements should be considered differently in the same scenario. Again, it’s hard to pinpoint exactly which groups and which incidents you are talking about, as you give no examples.
Lol, every fucking time. The initial question was in bad faith, the response has misinformation, and there’s always some nonsense moral implication. Yet if I just didn’t respond there would be someone commenting something along the lines how “it’s pretty telling” I don’t engage with this crap.
“This crap” being a rational take. It seems like you’ve made your mind up, and any contrary viewpoint be damned.
Side note: it’s a bad faith argument to attach everyone to some arbitrary group, fail to define that group, and then attack it.
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Idk man, if you have hostages taken and your response is full all out assault, your basically signaling you don’t actually care about those hostages. You are practically putting the hostage takers in the position where execution is the only option. Cause that’s the threat when you take hostages. This is pretty simple. So don’t get all “Hamas killed the hostages” when Israel did nothing to save them. Might as well pulled the trigger themselves.
Total war as a doctrine is pretty much never justified, but it’s what Netanyahu has repeatedly promised.
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And that Hamas soldiers father/wife/children/brother/sister would still be alive if Israel didn’t kill them. Kinda tit for tat? Honestly, Hamas taking hostages is the humane thing. Israel doesn’t take hostages. They just kill.
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Brother, this is basic violence begets violence response. I ain’t over here clapping and cheering as Hamas executes Israelies. I am mourning. But I also recognize that Hamas is a monster of Israel’s creation and it will not go away without either recognizing that and making actual change to the lives of palastinians and giving them their land back and self determination.
Or genocide the palastinians.
Those are the two options. Hamas wasn’t the first form of palastinian resistance and it won’t be the last. That’s basic. So if we wanna sit here and talk “psycho response”, I suggest you consider why your on team genocide.
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Friendly reminder that Palestine is an illegally occupied territory and it’s near impossible to “improve your life” without first freeing yourself from oppression.
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MBFC: Left-Center - Credibility: High - Factual Reporting: High - Israel
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