You made it through the first layer of Anti-Communism propaganda. Congratulations!
Now here comes the next layer of propaganda. These so-called failed communist examples you speak of. Were any of them actually communism? Or were they just authoritarians calling themselves Communists to try to make people think they weren’t authoritarian?
Now here comes the next layer of propaganda. These so-called failed communist examples you speak of. Were any of them actually communism? Or were they just authoritarians calling themselves Communists to try to make people think they weren’t authoritarian?
Sounds like you made it through the first and second layer, but stopped there and didn’t seek further knowledge. There are hundreds, thousands of layers of propaganda.
So are you saying it isn’t propaganda? Because the west depicts the gulags as forced labor camps, not just prisons. They are depicted as places where people starved to death through neglect, who were summarily executed upon failure to work, threatened with starvation. They are depicted as places where millions of people where held and died. They are also depicted as places where not just criminals were sent, but political prisoners as well.
I’m not saying the west has perfectly depicted it. The west is absolutely rife with propaganda. But there being even a kernel of truth to this is downright horrifying, and cause to call out the USSR as being authoritarian.
So are you saying it isn’t propaganda? Because the west depicts the gulags as forced labor camps, not just prisons
Prisons in the US are also often forced labor camps. Prisons in the USSR, like most nations, were highly varied in intensity and quality.
They are depicted as places where people starved to death through neglect, who were summarily executed upon failure to work, threatened with starvation.
The bulk of this comes from WWII, when the Nazis invaded Ukraine, the USSR’s breadbasket. Famine increased and prisoners were not prioritized, leading to many dying.
They are depicted as places where millions of people where held and died. They are also depicted as places where not just criminals were sent, but political prisoners as well.
Fascists and Capitalists were indeed also sent to prison, yes.
I’m not saying the west has perfectly depicted it. The west is absolutely rife with propaganda. But there being even a kernel of truth to this is downright horrifying, and cause to call out the USSR as being authoritarian.
By your logic, every state that has ever existed is authoritarian. Looking at the metrics, the USSR has been more progressive for its time, both with respect to contemporary states and with respect to Tsarist Russia. As an example, they were far more leniant than the Tsar:
Prisons in the US are also often forced labor camps.
This is a whataboutism. The USSR doesn’t get a free pass just because the U.S. is shitty too.
The bulk of this comes from WWII, when the Nazis invaded Ukraine, the USSR’s breadbasket. Famine increased and prisoners were not prioritized, leading to many dying.
Do you have a source? And given that you say “the bulk” and not all, what accounts for the remainder?
Fascists and Capitalists were indeed also sent to prison, yes.
Again, do you have a source?
By your logic, every state that has ever existed is authoritarian.
This is a whataboutism. The USSR doesn’t get a free pass just because the U.S. is shitty too.
I was not giving the USSR a “free pass.” I was putting it into context. For its time, it was progressive.
Do you have a source? And given that you say “the bulk” and not all, what accounts for the remainder?
It’s well known among Soviet Historians that famine occured during WWII and Prisoners were forced to take the brunt of the impact, rather than the average citizen or soldier.
Again, do you have a source?
What do you believe constitutes a “Political Prisoner” in the USSR? There were numerous Nazi Collaborators, Tsarists, and Bourgeois elements that attempted to destabilize the State. What would satisfy you as evidence, just examples, or what?
To varying degrees, pretty much yes.
Then, genuine question, do you believe that making progressive, positive reductions in mortality rates is an authoritarian thing to do?
I was not giving the USSR a “free pass.” I was putting it into context. For its time, it was progressive.
Force labor is still forced labor even if it is better than what the past was.
It’s well known among Soviet Historians that famine occured during WWII and Prisoners were forced to take the brunt of the impact, rather than the average citizen or soldier.
The graph you have attached to this statement doesn’t have a source listed. And sorry, but I’m no historian, so I would like something better than “it is well known”.
There were numerous Nazi Collaborators, Tsarists, and Bourgeois elements that attempted to destabilize the State. What would satisfy you as evidence, just examples, or what?
Ideally a primary source would be preferred.
Then, genuine question, do you believe that making progressive, positive reductions in mortality rates is an authoritarian thing to do?
This question at it’s core is a whataboutism and therefore invalid. Being a progressive authoritarian still means you’re an authoritarian.
Referring to the part of the conversation about the cause of starvation in gulags being the result of the nazis invading Ukraine, your second graph definitely helps support it, with the caveat being correlation does not imply causation.
You made it through the first layer of Anti-Communism propaganda. Congratulations!
Now here comes the next layer of propaganda. These so-called failed communist examples you speak of. Were any of them actually communism? Or were they just authoritarians calling themselves Communists to try to make people think they weren’t authoritarian?
Sounds like you made it through the first and second layer, but stopped there and didn’t seek further knowledge. There are hundreds, thousands of layers of propaganda.
I’m confused. Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me?
Both.
AES was true Socialism.
In what way were the gulags of the USSR propaganda?
The USSR did indeed have prisons, and criminals were put in prison. I never said the USSR was a wonderland with no prisons.
So are you saying it isn’t propaganda? Because the west depicts the gulags as forced labor camps, not just prisons. They are depicted as places where people starved to death through neglect, who were summarily executed upon failure to work, threatened with starvation. They are depicted as places where millions of people where held and died. They are also depicted as places where not just criminals were sent, but political prisoners as well.
I’m not saying the west has perfectly depicted it. The west is absolutely rife with propaganda. But there being even a kernel of truth to this is downright horrifying, and cause to call out the USSR as being authoritarian.
Prisons in the US are also often forced labor camps. Prisons in the USSR, like most nations, were highly varied in intensity and quality.
The bulk of this comes from WWII, when the Nazis invaded Ukraine, the USSR’s breadbasket. Famine increased and prisoners were not prioritized, leading to many dying.
Fascists and Capitalists were indeed also sent to prison, yes.
By your logic, every state that has ever existed is authoritarian. Looking at the metrics, the USSR has been more progressive for its time, both with respect to contemporary states and with respect to Tsarist Russia. As an example, they were far more leniant than the Tsar:
This is a whataboutism. The USSR doesn’t get a free pass just because the U.S. is shitty too.
Do you have a source? And given that you say “the bulk” and not all, what accounts for the remainder?
Again, do you have a source?
To varying degrees, pretty much yes.
I was not giving the USSR a “free pass.” I was putting it into context. For its time, it was progressive.
It’s well known among Soviet Historians that famine occured during WWII and Prisoners were forced to take the brunt of the impact, rather than the average citizen or soldier.
What do you believe constitutes a “Political Prisoner” in the USSR? There were numerous Nazi Collaborators, Tsarists, and Bourgeois elements that attempted to destabilize the State. What would satisfy you as evidence, just examples, or what?
Then, genuine question, do you believe that making progressive, positive reductions in mortality rates is an authoritarian thing to do?
Force labor is still forced labor even if it is better than what the past was.
The graph you have attached to this statement doesn’t have a source listed. And sorry, but I’m no historian, so I would like something better than “it is well known”.
Ideally a primary source would be preferred.
This question at it’s core is a whataboutism and therefore invalid. Being a progressive authoritarian still means you’re an authoritarian.
Referring to the part of the conversation about the cause of starvation in gulags being the result of the nazis invading Ukraine, your second graph definitely helps support it, with the caveat being correlation does not imply causation.