No, you don’t have to turn over anything, why do you keep coming up with that strawman?
But if someone else would come and ask if they can use it since evidently you don’t, there is not much you could do about it other that asking them to voluntarily reimburse you for your costs ; and not a rent that over time pays your costs back many times over. The reason why the latter is possible in our society, is because the state (via the police) will violently evict people from houses they use but aren’t their private property. Hence for private property to exist there needs to be violent enforcement and only the state makes it legal to do so.
It’s an edge case scenario, but I wouldn’t call it a strawman.
What about in the case where my father dies. What happens to his house? Do I have to sell it? What if no one wants to buy it right away? What is the defining difference between personal property and private property? Because right now, it just seems like the difference is when you, or some arbitrary body of consensus, decides that someone else owns enough stuff.
The strawman is that you assume someone would go around and actively take things away from you. This wouldn’t be the case. Rather if other people have an urgent need for it and you don’t, then, and only then would this situation happen.
But distinction is clear: regular usage. Nothing arbitrary about that at all.
If you don’t plan to use the house of your father, someone else should start using it, especially if there is a housing shortage. Common politeness would of course mandate to wait for you to finish grieving the death of your father and allow you to remove any items of purely sentimental value from the house first.
Simple as that. Why would you, who likely spend no effort at all in building or maintaining the house of your father have any special rights?
Why would you, who likely spend no effort at all in building or maintaining the house of your father have any special rights?
By this logic, why should any outside party who absolutely didn’t put any effort in to the property get to claim it?
[The] distinction is clear: regular usage. Nothing arbitrary about that at all.
What counts as regular usage? This didn’t answer the question, it just kicked the can down the road a little way. Who or what determines when my property transitions from personal to private?
No the logic is the age old “from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs”. They get to claim it as personal property if they have a need for it and actually live in it.
But it is very easy to determine regular use in all but some edge cases where the established previous user would get preference due to customary rights. And your personal property can’t transition to private property, as private property wouldn’t exist.
But lets assume you are right and it is difficult to determine. What would you rather have? Some disagreements over the use of a garage between neighbors, or wide scale violent enforcement of private property for a few that claim ownership of hundreds or thousands of houses? Because that is what you are defending here, and by doing so you are the useful idiot of the capitalist elite.
from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs
Great, who determines ability and needs?
Some disagreements over the use of a garage between neighbors,
Sure, the garage scenario is plausible, but the bigger implications is what happens if someone decides they need my car, or my house, or my toothbrush more than I do? What’s my motivation to work, to earn, or to risk if the payoff is the same as someone who does nothing?
You say that no one would take anything from anyone, because there is no private ownership, but almost everyone privately owns their shit right now, it would all have to transition to your idea of “personal” non-ownership. So someone IS taking all the stuff from everyone, you just have a roundabout way of saying it, or you don’t understand the implications of what you are actually saying.
I never once said anything about someone needing something more than you do. I talked about actually using it or not. That is not hard to determine at all and it is also not hard to determine if someone has a genuine need for a house for example.
And no one every said anything about work not being rewarded. Seriously, read again what I wrote. I said the exact opposite… rents, inheritance and stealing other people’s personal property (by claiming it is private property) are means of withholding and extracting value without any work.
And you are again confusing private property with personal property / ownership. Yes everyone has personal property… that’s fine. No one is coming for your toothbrush. Don’t worry!
That toothbrush you have. I need it more. Give it here. I’m coming for the toothbrush.
But if someone else would come and ask if they can use it since evidently you don’t, there is not much you could do about it other that asking them to voluntarily reimburse you for your costs
Here you are, talking about someone being able to take a garage that I converted into a living space, because they need it more that I am using it. So yes, you did say that someone could take my stuff from me.
How would you genuinely determine need for a house? Who is going to build houses if someone else just gets to live in them for free? What’s the motivation for building houses?
And no one every said anything about work not being rewarded.
No, but it’s implicit in the quote from Karl Marx* that you sent me earlier. From each by ability to each by need covienently forgets about the efforts of each. Which is an inherent flaw of Marxism.
Gotcha.
So if I converted my standalone garage into a MiL suite, would I have to turn it over?
No, you don’t have to turn over anything, why do you keep coming up with that strawman?
But if someone else would come and ask if they can use it since evidently you don’t, there is not much you could do about it other that asking them to voluntarily reimburse you for your costs ; and not a rent that over time pays your costs back many times over. The reason why the latter is possible in our society, is because the state (via the police) will violently evict people from houses they use but aren’t their private property. Hence for private property to exist there needs to be violent enforcement and only the state makes it legal to do so.
It’s an edge case scenario, but I wouldn’t call it a strawman.
What about in the case where my father dies. What happens to his house? Do I have to sell it? What if no one wants to buy it right away? What is the defining difference between personal property and private property? Because right now, it just seems like the difference is when you, or some arbitrary body of consensus, decides that someone else owns enough stuff.
The strawman is that you assume someone would go around and actively take things away from you. This wouldn’t be the case. Rather if other people have an urgent need for it and you don’t, then, and only then would this situation happen.
But distinction is clear: regular usage. Nothing arbitrary about that at all.
If you don’t plan to use the house of your father, someone else should start using it, especially if there is a housing shortage. Common politeness would of course mandate to wait for you to finish grieving the death of your father and allow you to remove any items of purely sentimental value from the house first.
Simple as that. Why would you, who likely spend no effort at all in building or maintaining the house of your father have any special rights?
By this logic, why should any outside party who absolutely didn’t put any effort in to the property get to claim it?
What counts as regular usage? This didn’t answer the question, it just kicked the can down the road a little way. Who or what determines when my property transitions from personal to private?
No the logic is the age old “from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs”. They get to claim it as personal property if they have a need for it and actually live in it.
But it is very easy to determine regular use in all but some edge cases where the established previous user would get preference due to customary rights. And your personal property can’t transition to private property, as private property wouldn’t exist.
But lets assume you are right and it is difficult to determine. What would you rather have? Some disagreements over the use of a garage between neighbors, or wide scale violent enforcement of private property for a few that claim ownership of hundreds or thousands of houses? Because that is what you are defending here, and by doing so you are the useful idiot of the capitalist elite.
Great, who determines ability and needs?
Sure, the garage scenario is plausible, but the bigger implications is what happens if someone decides they need my car, or my house, or my toothbrush more than I do? What’s my motivation to work, to earn, or to risk if the payoff is the same as someone who does nothing?
You say that no one would take anything from anyone, because there is no private ownership, but almost everyone privately owns their shit right now, it would all have to transition to your idea of “personal” non-ownership. So someone IS taking all the stuff from everyone, you just have a roundabout way of saying it, or you don’t understand the implications of what you are actually saying.
You are back at arguing a strawman 🫠
I never once said anything about someone needing something more than you do. I talked about actually using it or not. That is not hard to determine at all and it is also not hard to determine if someone has a genuine need for a house for example.
And no one every said anything about work not being rewarded. Seriously, read again what I wrote. I said the exact opposite… rents, inheritance and stealing other people’s personal property (by claiming it is private property) are means of withholding and extracting value without any work.
And you are again confusing private property with personal property / ownership. Yes everyone has personal property… that’s fine. No one is coming for your toothbrush. Don’t worry!
That toothbrush you have. I need it more. Give it here. I’m coming for the toothbrush.
Here you are, talking about someone being able to take a garage that I converted into a living space, because they need it more that I am using it. So yes, you did say that someone could take my stuff from me.
How would you genuinely determine need for a house? Who is going to build houses if someone else just gets to live in them for free? What’s the motivation for building houses?
No, but it’s implicit in the quote from Karl Marx* that you sent me earlier. From each by ability to each by need covienently forgets about the efforts of each. Which is an inherent flaw of Marxism.