Last time I called Rittenhouse a murderer here, one of his inbred cult wanted to argue. Let’s see if that happens again:
Kyle Rittenhouse is a murderer.
Kyle Rittenhouse is a murderer.
Who is Kyle? Did you mean Kyla?
Sorry, I will show myself out.
Haha misgendering is so funny you’re so funny
Edit:
If we can’t have a fact based conversation about anything then I don’t know what the point is. As a leftie this type of rhetoric really saddens me. I thought we were better than the Maga crowd.
Does every act of self defense automatically classify someone as a murderer?
BTW, for the record I’m a leftie progressive. I’m not a conservative and I hate the Maga crowd. But the events that led to the death of those people that day was due to self defense.
This has been established through clear video footage and a lengthy trial with a jury of his peers.
Anyone who disagrees needs to establish they know the facts of the matter beyond news headlines or Twitter opinions.
The problem with this country today is rampant misinformation.
Can you demonstrate why it wasn’t self defense?
I summoned one. Again.
How disappointing.
The user laid out an argument, a reasoning and asked you a question. All you can do is “LA LA LA” doesn’t fit my narrative and insult. Hmm reminds me of some people I know. At least tell them why you think what you think other than omg Rittenhouse bad.
And I am on rittenhouse’s side on this one. Simply because he has gone up against a jury of his peers and been found innocent. If we stop obeying the rule of law then we are no better than terrorists. Want the law to change? Vote, don’t insult your peers
Two.
Could you possibly use your occult powers for good? Pretty please?
If we can’t have a fact based conversation about anything then I don’t know what the point is. As a leftie this type of rhetoric really saddens me. I thought we were better than the Maga crowd.
Nobody wants to have a conversation with you. It was just a check if people like you are still around. You confirmed. No more conversation is needed. Nobody is required to waste their breath on you.
Then don’t position yourself as above the Maga crowd. You are all the same.
It’s mostly just this place. You find this tribalist response on a lot of topics here. Other instances aren’t as cultish. Good on you for arguing your case, but it falls on deaf ears. The discourse could use some improvements
Thanks. I have to adopt a different strategy. I even asked the people I was “debating” for advice on what I’m doing wrong and they still found reason to put me down. It could be the tone that’s inferred in written communication. I have no idea.
r/AsABlackMan front page has your twitter post
I voted for Bernie in the 'primary, I voted for Biden and I’m voting for Kamala. Trump is a piece of shit insurrectionist that should not be on the ballot.
If every time someone on your side points a criticism you do this game, it’s the exact same thing the Maga crowd does with labeling anti - trump Republicans as RINOS.
If all you care about is labels and how fast you can pin someone in a box so you don’t have to engage with a conversation that says more about you.
People have engaged with your comments. The ardent defense of Rittenhouse does not match with progressivism.
Especially in context of Rittenhouse becoming a right wing hero and not regretting his actions.
This is another weird thing. Because I’m interested in the facts of the matter people assume by default that I’m interested in defending Kyle. I don’t care for Kyle. I think hes a pos. But this weird response is always like the top comment I get. You’re not A so you must be B. So we can’t talk about the facts of something without the need to box someone in.
I’m quoting you here:
“As a European that lived in America briefly (ten years) I was very shocked when I encountered the gun culture there.”
“I voted for Bernie in the 'primary, I voted for Biden and I’m voting for Kamala. Trump is a piece of shit insurrectionist that should not be on the ballot.“
How are these two things possible without you being a liar?
What part is hard to believe exactly? I moved to the US in 2012 from Italy. I lived there for ten years. While I was there the gun culture was something I never really got accustomed to. What part of this makes me a liar? I’m so confused.
Edit:
Guys. I have dual citizenship. My mother is a US expat. I can vote in both Italian and US elections.
If every time someone on your side
Not “our” side…? You’re slipping, kid. Thought you was moar lefty than all the rest of us combined.
I have you tagged as [Conservative] so I don’t mistake you for someone worth having a discussion with.
What extension did you use to do that, I want to have a look at it
No extensions, just a standard feature on boost
So as a person on the left I cannot fact check anything that gets repeated on our side? I don’t understand this need to silence people so hard because they asked a question or have a disagreement with a position. It’s truly bizarre. If it makes you feel better to label me something and that’s the best you can do, go ahead.
our side
GTFO, nobody here is your kin by blood or morals.
Holy shit! You’re so far left, we’re ALL right of you!
The only thing you’re to the left of is the authoritarian fuckwits you’re fellating.
Why such an angry response? Really. What did I do that warrants this level of anger? Does your response seem normal to you?
If you want to have a fact based conversation, it would be nice if you came with facts instead of just claiming they exist.
If you want to discuss about what kind of killing is worth calling murder, it would be nice if you explained your position.
Your original comment is incredibly passive-aggressive.
Thanks. I want to get better so if the way I replied came across as passive aggressive then it’s something I need to work on.
I’ve tried having a factual discussion on this instance about the topic in the past but I ended up spending the whole time arguing if I’m a conservative in disguise or not and honestly that’s the most I can get out of this platform. If you have any tips on a better approach I’m all ears. I really want to get my messaging to a better place.
I guess the main thing is that if you’re going to argue for something very unpopular, rather than arguing for the sake of your opponent as they are today, argue for the sake of uncommitted onlookers and for the sake of the opponent a week from now after they’ve had time to calm down and reprocess. Respond to their arguments, of course, but do it in a way that illustrates to less polarized people that you’ve got a point, rather than trying to convince your opponent or finding specific errors in the opponent’s reasoning/self-justification.
When an issue is as polarized as this, people very rarely switch sides publicly (unless they’re shilling and they didn’t hold the original position to begin with), but people can cringe from the side making bad arguments, quietly distancing themselves, and a few months or years later show up on a different side.
If you want that side to be your side, it’s nice to present a pipeline that does that. People who cringe from bottom-of-the-barrel leftist discourse can fall into alt-right pipelines, which you presumably don’t want, so ideally you would want to have examples of (leftist) influencers whose takes you find reasonable, ideally on the case itself. For example, LegalEagle (“it is plausible that the jury was right that murder under Wisconsin law was not proven beyond reasonable doubt”).
The hate is not really avoidable except by forgoing this venue or not arguing your point, but like with the hate thrown towards peaceful climate activists, it is not a sign that you’re doing a bad job.
Thank you. I appreciate the thoughts. I understand the onlooker angle Vs trying to convince your opponent. There’s a lot to mull over in your comment. Going to process and reflect. Thanks again.
Thanks for not repeating unverified social media talking points. I knew I could count on you for nuanced and intelligent discussion. You know, with misinformation being rampart it’s good to know people like you are around to definitely not propagate false talking points.
Where would you have been if I hadn’t called you?
I don’t care any more. Let’s just continue with the narratives we’ve established we like and not listen to anyone else. It’s all good. You keep doing you.
This is the “The Civil War was about State’s Rights” argument and I need a meme of a duck saying “Why was Rittenhouse there in the first place?”
WHY WAS HE THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE?!
Look just because he went there to shoot someone and the shot someone doesn’t mean he meant to shoot someone. /s
I’m a leftie progressive (…) But the events that led to the death of those people that day was due to self defense.
So you’re not a willfully blind idiot for party political reasons. I wonder what convinced you then…
This has been established through clear video footage and a lengthy trial with a jury of his peers
Ah, an ignorant faith in the veracity of doctored or otherwise misleading out of context footage and the integrity of the US legal system 🤦
Can you demonstrate why it wasn’t self defense?
Dude brought an AR-15 to a word fight. In another state. After telling friends that he wanted to shoot BLM protesters. He then harassed peaceful protesters until some of them tried to stop him. He then murdered the people trying to stop him.
As someone who followed the trial closely, the evidence couldn’t be more clear.
But if all you’re going to do is handwave it away because of conspiracies that
- The trial was rigged
- The video was doctored
Then I don’t know what to discuss. This rhetoric identical with Maga republicans that claim the election was stolen and Hillary Clinton is harvesting the endocrine glands of children.
If we can’t have a fact based conversation about anything then I don’t know what the point is. As a leftie this type of rhetoric really saddens me. I thought we were better than the Maga crowd.
But if all you’re going to do is handwave it away because of conspiracies
That’s categorically not what I’m doing.
This rhetoric identical with Maga republicans that claim the election was stolen and Hillary Clinton is harvesting the endocrine glands of children.
Fuck off with that horseshoe theory bullshit. You’re clearly lying about being a leftist progressive in order to lend your credulity a false veneer of impartiality.
If we can’t have a fact based conversation about anything
Clearly we can’t, but I’m not the one responsible for that.
As a leftie this type of rhetoric really saddens me. I thought we were better than the Maga crowd
Big Dean Browning vibes.
So let me get this right: we can’t criticize any position that our side takes because that automatically brands us as posers, right? Who else plays this game? Do you see how close to the MAGA crowd we’ve circled back to? They do the exact same game to anyone that disagrees with their narrative (See RINO).
-
YOU said the video was doctored or taken out of context. But then you never backed that up.
-
YOU said the integrity of the judicial system can’t be trusted (even though I followed the trial very closely). There is no evidence this case was rigged
It’s this odd knee-jerk reaction I see here on Lemmy anyone that disagrees with established narratives is automatically branded:
- Outsider / other
- Facts become irrelevant
I MUST brand you as something. I can’t engage with someone unless I put a label on them.
Your goal is not to disprove my points or engage with what I’ve said. It’s to silence me by putting a label.
Notice how I never ascribed a label to you. I don’t know if you’re conservative, tankie, republican, or independent. I didn’t call you names. I didn’t accuse you of bad faith.
ALL I DID: I brought the facts of the matter and I described how similar your rhetoric is to the way elements of the far right manifest themselves. As a leftie all I want to do is combat misinformation. But just that was enough to get me all the downvotes and labels needed to put me in a box so we don’t have to hear about it.
So let me get this right: we can’t criticize any position that our side takes because that automatically brands us as posers, right
Nope, that’s a ridiculous strawman. You’re allowed to take any position you want. Just as I’m allowed to have my suspicions when you take positions that make no sense outside of credulity caused by far right gaslighting.
Who else plays this game? Do you see how close to the MAGA crowd we’ve circled back to? They do the exact same game to anyone that disagrees with their narrative (See RINO).
More horseshoe theory bullshit. Even if you WERE right about me (you’re not), equating anything I’ve said with the utterly insane drivel of a literal fascist movement is the kind of thing disingenuous “moderates” and cosplaying Republicans do.
YOU said the video was doctored or taken out of context. But then you never backed that up.
I backed it up by providing the context that the video omits: that he traveled heavily armed across state lines to a peaceful protest in order to shoot protesters, deliberately provoked protesters until some of them tried to stop him and then murdered those protesters.
Those are actual facts that the biased judge ordered stricken from the record because they made it clear that it was all premeditated rather than spur of the moment self defense.
There is no evidence this case was rigged
Yeah there is, see above.
YOU said the integrity of the judicial system can’t be trusted
Yeah, I tend not to trust a system where a biased judge who has no business presiding over a case can just arbitrarily throw out crucial evidence because it doesn’t match his predetermined conclusion and nobody can do anything about it.
I’m kooky like that.
It’s this odd knee-jerk reaction I see here on Lemmy anyone that disagrees with established narratives is automatically branded:
- Outsider / other
- Facts become irrelevant
This you?
I MUST brand you as something. I can’t engage with someone unless I put a label on them
I didn’t accuse you of bad faith
Not explicitly, no, but your opening comment accused EVERYONE not convinced about his innocence of bad faith, so excuse me if I don’t celebrate your magnificently magnanimous restraint 🙄
I brought the facts of the matter
Nope. You brought your conclusion based on omitting key evidence.
described how similar your rhetoric is to the way elements of the far right manifest themselves
Which, again, is horseshoe theory bullshit. Especially when it’s not even CLOSE to true like in this case.
As a leftie
Give it a rest, Dean. Nobody’s buying it.
all I want to do is combat misinformation
Spreading it is an awfully peculiar way of going about that task…
But just that was enough to get me all the downvotes and labels needed to put me in a box so we don’t have to hear about it.
Nah, you got that for lying and trying to distort reality in order to defend a murderer and then doubling down when corrected.
Actually. Scratch my last comment. I want your advice.
We’ve had disagreements before and every time you seem to go all seem to devolve into the same labeling and accusations of bad faith.
What is the appropriate way to express disagreement or question a mainstream narrative on this platform in such a way I don’t get labeled something (ie the way you did when you called me zionist or Dean browning here). Give me some pointers. I want to get better.
Don’t say vague stuff ( don’t lie etc). Pretend I’m asking in good faith. Actually try to engage with me as if I was a human being.
I never ad hommed. I never labeled you. I never accused you of bad faith.
Yet you felt the need to introduce Dean Browning. Because what? I introduced myself as a leftie? Did you ever stop stop and wonder why I have to put that disclaimer in the first place on this platform? It’s because every discussion seems to devolve into name calling rather then engaging with the matter.
You felt the need the need to accuse me of lying, yet you never provided evidence the judge was biased, the trial was rigged or the video was doctored - all your claims. You provided some context. Neat.
If it wasn’t 0730, I’d try a drinking game based on your comments. He said “As a lefty”! Drink!
The way you insist on saying it, I’d be sauced by 0745.
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Big oof here. I see a lot of your comments and am surprised you’re pulling the same us vs them behavior as the MAGA crowd.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck and defends murderers like a duck, it’s probably a Dean.
In my days, I’ve met a leftist or two. And not a single one had to pepper every sentence with “I’m a lefty,” or “as a leftist…”
I think thou doth protest too much.
OJ Simpson also wasn’t convicted.
It seems kind of obvious Rittenhouse went looking for a situation he could put himself in so that he could shoot somebody. That’s murder if you can prove it, but good luck proving it.
Well, yes. Rittenhouse inserted himself into a situation he had zero business being in, with a weapon he was legally not allowed to have, and those actions put him in the danger that he then, legally speaking, defended himself from.
He’s an idiot, a terrible person, and 100% at fault for what happened. But not a murderer since he was acquitted, and words mean things.
You idiots can downvote me until the end of time if doesn’t make me less correct
So was Al Capone’s only crime tax evasion?
Yes, words mean things.
Murderer means someone who has committed murder.
Acquitted means that someone was tried for a crime but not convicted.
That could be because they’re actually innocent
Or it could be because of insufficient evidence, loopholes, technicalities, and circumstances that the people who wrote the law didn’t foresee, they were unable to adequately prove guilt. It could also be due to corruption or incompetence.
So you can commit a murder and still be acquitted of it. It doesn’t mean you’re not a murderer, it just means that you weren’t convicted for the murder you committed.
So you can commit a murder and still be acquitted of it. It doesn’t mean you’re not a murderer, it just means that you weren’t convicted for the murder you committed.
This is the dividing line for morality.
Some people understand that the law and morality are not the same. There are illegal things that are moral. There are legal things that are immoral.
People who think that legality = morality are dangerous, because they will interpret a loophole in the law to be a loophole in morality. The law becomes permission to do anything that fits within it, even if it is harmful to others.
Always worth reminding these people that the Holocaust was legal, and resistance was illegal, but we still know who the good guys and the bad guys were in WWII.
It would also be crazy if statue of limitations would be used to argue that somebody isn’t guilty when there’s solid evidence just because a court can’t legally find them guilty at that point
Just to nitpick, OJ was acquitted but still a murderer. The word means you killed someone
in cold bloodon purpose, not that you got a guilty verdict.Not in cold blood. That refers to a degree of murder. Murder is any intentional killing of a person by another person. Homicide is any killing of a person by another regardless of intent (broader). Manslaughter is usually unintentional, but can also refer to the killing of another with a lesser intent (like the intent wasn’t to kill specifically, but cause harm or something).
Thanks for the clarification. I meant “in cold blood” in the sense of “premeditated and intentional”, but I’ll remove it to be clear.
But not a murderer since he was acquitted, and words mean things.
TIL OJ Simpson isn’t a murderer
Wow, so if I commit crimes, and someone tries to stop me, I can legally defend myself from them by killing them?
I don’t think that’s true, but it’s certainly what you said for some reason…
Deliberately putting yourself in a situation you need to defend yourself using lethal force for the sake of defending yourself using lethal force is murder.
I’m a murderer whether or not I’m convicted. Murderers predate the US justice system.
Should Rittenhouse have been convicted? Probably not, because it’s not worth sacrificing the protections inbuilt to the legal system for the sake of punishing a snivelling shit weasel like Rittenhouse. That doesn’t make him innocent though.
That’s due to corrupt cops manipulating evidence. The judicial system acted accordingly when presented with the proof that the evidence could no longer be trusted.
Doesn’t matter. The point is that not being convicted is not synonymous with innocence. Innocence and guilt both exist outside the current iteration of the justice system.
OJ Simpson was different. The police borked that case to a mind blowing degree. Planting evidence, poor handling of evidence, police officers invoking the fifth on the witness stand, just so bad. The facts in Rittenhouse’s case were pretty well established, and the way the law applied left him in the clear. Now maybe the law should be different to deter vigilantes like Rittenhouse, but it was always likely to be a successful case of self-defense.
Intent: They drove like over an hour across state lines to Kenosha in hopes of finding somebody to kill then placed himself in harms way by wandering into a group of people.
The goal was always to kill people and thats what makes it murder.
the goal was always to kill people
This is the crux. This mens rea was not proven. And the fact that he waited long after he was chased and pinned to the ground before he started firing is critical to this injunction.
People on this board automatically assume that because I’m defending the non guilty verdict I’m automatically absolving Kyle Rittenhouse of all culpability. The kid was an idiot that made some very bad decisions that will likely haunt him the rest of his life. He was 17 and should have known better. He’s not completely innocent in my book. I just love how nuanced and wonderfully fact-based Lemmy is when it comes to these charged topics. It’s so refreshing.
Look, maybe the court/jury ruled correctly, but I think its also close minded to think that just because a court rules something that is reality. OJ was the best example of this, but I’m not going to argue with people who see how he tried turning having gunned down 2 people into a right wing celebrity career and think this guy is absolutely a little cretin to begin with.
Has it been proven that he was hoping to kill somebody when he drove across state lines?
Why else go to a riot zone with an AR?
Can you make sense of that?
No not really but that’s now how it works to prove intent.
You’re asking others to “prove his murderous intent”, as if kyle travelling to an active riot zone with a murder weapon is too deep of a fucking mystery for you to crack.
Is it possible for you to prove he only brought that AR to Waukesha for a fish fry? Didn’t fucking think so.
I don’t understand why you think I’m trying to prove something or asking some random person to prove anything. I was asking what was proven in court.
I don’t think “teen vigilante car dealership security” is a real job, so we can confirm he wasn’t there for that.
Well he wasn’t there to sell ice cream either.
But in a court of law, making a statement like “he went there to kill” is a statement that requires proof. And I’m simply asking if there has been any proof that he travelled there with intent to kill?
Bear in mind I’m not American, nor am I arguing about his guilt or innocence. Simply asking what proofs the attorneys brought to court.
There was a video from 15 days before the incident where he fantasized out loud about shooting some people he believed to be shoplifters. The prosecution tried to admit the video to evidence in order to demonstrate his mental state but was denied.
Kyle Rittenhouse showed up to a protest armed with an AR-15 intending to defend property that was not even his with lethal force, having been encouraged to do so by other militant conservative groups on social media. He then proceeded to shoot and kill two unarmed people who were attempting to disarm him and injured another who was armed with a pistol and who was also attempting to disarm him.
That video is incredibly damning. Do you know why it wasn’t allowed to be admitted?
Crooked justice by tainted judges.
Simple as
Judge argued it wasn’t relevant to the case. Obviously I disagree, and so did the prosecutors. The prosecution mentioned it during the trial anyway and was scolded by the judge, which was later used by the defense to try calling a mistrial.
Regarding victim number one. Bringing a gun to a protest and starting shit then shooting people doesn’t constitute self defense because you normally can’t provoke the situation you are defending yourself from. Also the only thing that made the situation deadly dangerous was literally the gun in his hand if not for that it would have been a fist fight at worst. More likely absent a weapon to give him courage he just wouldn’t have started shit.
Regarding victims 2 and 3 they were trying to stop what they correctly perceived as an active shooter they did not pursue lethal force against him he could have surrendered the gun non-violently. You normally have a legal obligation to use the lease force possible.
The law being what it is guilt or innocence it a fight is often questionable and subject to state specific laws but morally speaking I don’t understand why anyone would not hold him responsible for what happened. He is by all accounts a garbage human being and people are dead because he is a garbage human being.
Here is what one of the people who helped him win his legal case said
We invested significant effort to craft the image you witnessed during the trial. We outfitted him in new suits, arranged for his haircut every weekend during the trial, and dedicated over 200 hours to prepare him for direct and cross-examination. We employed the world’s leading jury consultant and conducted extensive research through three mock trials to identify the ideal jurors and the most effective approach for his testimony.
Transforming a middle school dropout who was “angry at the world” with a history of violence and an unhealthy obsession with guns and killing into a respectable young man with a desire for higher education and a promising future was no easy feat.
It was a meticulously crafted facade, which we sincerely hoped he would grow into. Instead, he squandered a full scholarship to study any subject at any university in the country to become a divisive douchebag and antagonize black Americans on college campuses. Kyle failed to learn a single thing. He remains the same uneducated, arrogant, and antagonistic individual, incapable of telling the truth.
Now, he genuinely believes he is the show pony we created and has surrounded himself with sycophants who fuel his inflated ego because they prioritize their political agenda and Christian Nationalist worldview over his well-being.
Despite my efforts to guide him toward a better path in life, the allure of notoriety triumphed over the prospect of putting in the hard work of pursuing an education. I regret my role in shaping him into whatever he has become. If I had known what I know now about Kyle’s History, I wouldn’t have been involved.
He’s also a moron. He obtained his high school diploma by cheating on online tests and then went to take the ASVAB and managed to score a 10, a typical average score for a high school graduate is 50, the minimum you can get into the military is 30. We are talking about questions like
If there are three quarts of gas in a gallon container, how full is the container? 50% 60% 75% 80%
I don’t even know how its possible to score a 10
You’re missing some context. I think I would agree with your take if not for the fact that:
the only thing that made the situation deadly dangerous was literally the gun in his hand
I can’t recall if it was indv 1 or 3 but one of them brandishes a skateboard towards his head. A skateboard can easily be a lethal blow to the head.
a fist fight at worst
See above. Also 4v1.
anyone would not hold him responsible for what happened
I actually agree with this. He is culpable of fomenting the situation. A 17 year old with an AR 15 had no business being there.
He’s also a moron
Totally agree.
I can’t recall if it was indv 1 or 3 but one of them brandishes a skateboard towards his head.
Cool Fox News narrative. Are you still trying to convince us you’re a leftist?
Hang on, so skateboard when smashed against someone’s skull is not lethal?
He wouldn’t have been hit if he had dropped the gun he had just murdered someone with
He was brandishing the skateboard because Rittshit had just blown someone away. There is zero reason to believe that he would be hit if he dropped the gun. When you kill someone there isn’t a judge to decide if you ought to have done that you appear to be the villain you aren’t owed a trial and a jury before they secure the present situation. They had every right to do so and he should have complied.
as a leftie
Real I’m a black gay guy vibes here.
Show us your leftie registration papers please.
Here’s the thing: If I don’t include that I’m a leftie I spend the whole time defending why i’m not a conservative and never actually discussing the topic.
If I mention that I’m a leftie that disagrees with the main take: I spend the whole time defending why im not a conservative and never discussing the topic.
NO ONE ENGAGES WITH THE SUBSTANCE OF THE DISCUSSION
It’s damned if I do damned if don’t. This is cult behavior. If you disagree with my position, refute my position or provide an argument. There is no grace or charitability offered. Like, why?
So many people on this platform spend all their energy in labeling but never discussing the actual points.
If I don’t include that I’m a leftie I spend the whole time defending why i’m not a conservative and never actually discussing the topic.
Huh, so if you don’t explicitly inform people that you identify as a leftist, everyone assumes that you aren’t because of all of your right-wing positions? That sounds like a you problem…
I hate to break it to you, but if you’re frequently encountering situations where you’re the only person in the room who thinks you’re a leftist, you’re not a leftist. You can self-identify all you want, we don’t have to believe you. And if other leftists think you aren’t an ally, you absolutely don’t get to correct the record on that by supporting Kyle Rittenhouse.
If I mention that I’m a leftie that disagrees with the main take: I spend the whole time defending why im not a conservative and never discussing the topic.
Dude’s so mad he paraphrased the first sentence in his second sentence.
NO ONE ENGAGES WITH THE SUBSTANCE OF THE DISCUSSION
You’re a self-proclaimed leftist who supports a fascist who murdered other leftists at a BLM protest. Everyone is engaging with the substance of your argument quite directly.
It’s damned if I do damned if don’t. This is cult behavior. If you disagree with my position, refute my position or provide an argument. There is no grace or charitability offered. Like, why?
Being a debatelord isn’t helping with the right-wing accusations here, bud. The Kyle Rittenhouse case is old news. You know the Left’s position on him. If being identified as a leftist is so important to you, you’re going to have to accept that endorsing the murder of leftists while they protest isn’t a narrative that is going to earn you anything ever.
So many people on this platform spend all their energy in labeling but never discussing the actual points.
You didn’t defend your point at all in this post and are more concerned with people accepting you as a “leftie”, so don’t get mad that we’re only responding to what you’re giving us. At this point you’re more interested in convincing us that you’re a leftist than explaining in real terms why you like Kyle Rittenhouse and support killing BLM protesters in the street.
If you want to focus on the conversation, stop pearl-clutching every time someone tells you that you’re wrong. If you want a discussion, stop getting hung up on being disagreed with and state your point like an adult.
FOR THE RECORD: I DON’T SUPPORT KILE RITTENHOUSE; I THINK HE’S A POS
The fact that you automatically assumed that from the get-go is ALL I NEED TO KNOW about how much you care about reality or facts.
The ONLY thing you talked about is if is this guy really left or not?
spend the whole time defending
You’re defending your braindead ideas, not ‘which social group you’re in’; it’s irrelevant.
Let’s say a person doesn’t like certain other types of people (be it due to race, religion, political views, or whatever), and that person also glorifies violence against those types of people and they glorify gun violence in general.
Let’s also say this person knowingly and willingly (and possibly illegally) puts themselves in harm’s way, while carrying a gun, amongst those same certain types of people.
Then they get into a situation where they have to use “self defense” in order to escape harm from those people. Luckily they had that gun with them!
Was it legally “self defense?” Yes, apparently. Could it be argued that it was also “hunting” disliked group of people, as if for sport? Yes.
Did Rittenhouse successfully use a self defense plea to get away with murder? Some would argue that he did.
I agree with your take for the most part actually. This is the kindest response I’ve gotten on Lemmy in the past year since this topic gets brought up.
Could it be argued that it was also “hunting” disliked group of people, as if for sport? Yes
He was 17. This fact could easily be argued the other way. In the days preceding the Kenosha riots there were riots in Minneapolis were stores were looted and some buildings burned. About a 1bn in damage happened. Kenosha is a small town where Kyle worked. Could it be he was also concerned about the place his father lived and where he worked?
Also, just because he received a non-guilty verdict I will be the first to say that doesn’t absolve him of culpability in developing a situation that led to harm. As a European that lived in America briefly (ten years) I was very shocked when I encountered the gun culture there. I understand it but I never got comfortable with it.
Thank you again for not resorting to labeling me or putting me down. Gives me a little hope for Lemmy.
Could it be he was also concerned about the place his father lived and where he worked?
Vigilantism is also illegal. It could be argued that had Kyle stayed home those people would still be alive
It could also be argued if the child molester hadn’t chased and tried to attack Rittenhouse that he’d be alive…same with felon skateboard man…and domestic abuser with the handgun.
Did that hurt? Should we call a doctor? You forgot to mention how left you are this time.
It’s funny. No matter what I say, that’s all you will attack. It’s all about purity testing and how much of a team player one has to be. Never about what is being discussed.
In the past I didn’t mention I was left and all I got to discuss was how evil conservative I am. Even though I despise everything conservatives stand for. I really don’t know what to say.
In the past I didn’t mention I was left and all I got to discuss was how evil conservative I am.
Honestly, that is an interesting reaction when you take into consideration that you spout right wing talking points.
which right wing point did i spout that automatically made me a conservative on all my positions…
Does every act of self defense automatically classify someone as a murderer?
By definition, murder is the unjustified killing of a human. This is why homicide is the preferred term, with murder, if it’s mentioned at all, is a particularly egregious form of homicide.
But the events that led to the death of those people that day was due to self defense.
Nope. He sought that conflict out. The verdict aside, the chain of events leading to that conflict lead to him being there, being in that confrontation, and willfully engaging in that confrontation.
Oh lookie here so called “leftist” that’s really a right wing troll
If you had asked an NRA-affiliated self defense instructor in 2019 if what Rittenhouse did was self defense, they would have told you unequivocally no.
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He was chased by 4 individuals
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He was pinned to the ground
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He fired a warning shot
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Indv 1 tried to grab his gun.
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Indv 2 tried to hit him with a skateboard.
At what point do we allow for self-defense?
- To be clear: he should never have been there in the first place. A 17 year old with a gun has no business patrolling a riot with an AR-15. This was a horrible situation that one could be argued he provoked.
To be clear: he should never have been there in the first place.
This is why it isn’t self defense. You can’t go putting yourself in a situation and then cry about it later.
That’s not how self defense works at all…
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Yeah maybe August 2024 is when someone finally says something new on the topic… Jesus Christ. You know why it wasn’t self defense. You don’t agree, but you know why. So just stop.
They did NOT establish definitively that it was self defense.
The verdict established that the murders were not premeditated, which they weren’t.
For the charge of 1st degree murder the prosecution had to prove premeditation which they were unable to do, hence the not guilty.
For some inexplicable reason, the prosecution failed to also charge 2nd degree, which would have likely received a guilty verdict.
Please note the distinction: while the defense certainly argued self defense, the not guilty verdict does not prove the defense theory to be correct, it simply proves the prosecution did not meet their burden of proof regarding premeditation, nothing more.
In the US legal system, people are not proclaimed innocent, they are found to be guilty or not guilty. Not guilty of one particular charge does not mean that the defendant is innocent of all crimes.
I watched the entire trial.
Yes. thank you. I agree with your take for the most part.
I’ve spent the whole thread defending how left I am so I’m out of energy to offer a more complete response. I have some thoughts but maybe I’ll come back later.
Thanks anyway.
Cheers.
I’ve spent the whole thread defending how left I am
Why? You should be spending the thread defending your argument. This is just an Ad Hominem fallacy with extra steps.
You’re right. I don’t really disagree with what you’re saying. I spent a lot of my energy arguing with the wrong individuals in this thread and I’ve run out of steam. I’m feeling a bit demoralized by the whole thing in general tbh. I’m happy you were able to get a debate bro term in I guess…
Ad-hominem ftw!
“you’re right, I agree with what you’re saying, and now I’m going to try to throw in a random insult for no reason because I am arguing in good faith!”
You were so close to just having a reasonable reply, you just had to stop one sentence sooner.
Sorry I mentioned the Ad-hominem thing. 😕 I shouldn’t have brought it up.
“Can you demonstrate why it wasn’t self defense?”
That, alone, is super easy for anyone familiar with how self defense works.
Source: I have a permit to carry concealed in my state and passed an instructional course to be able to do so.
One of the very first things you learn about self defense is that you cannot initiate a conflict and then later claim self defense.
Rittenhouse was safe. He was in another state, 20 miles from the conflict, and chose to endanger himself by bringing a weapon into an area of unrest.
At that point, self defense should have been off the table. He chose to engage, that’s not self defense.
Thank you. This is a reasonable take I can actually agree with to some extent and I think gives me a different perspective, albeit it goes beyond the legal framework. I’ve also heard this argument before and I’m torn on this.
I’m curious: what is your stance on the Korean rooftop shooters during the LA riots?
The Korean rooftop shooters during the riots were definitely self defense. They were protecting themselves and their places of business.
I actually heard a good interview with someone who, as a child, was working for her moms gas station during the riots, let me see if I can turn it up…
https://insideucr.ucr.edu/awards/2024/05/18/laist-includes-carol-park-new-podcast-inheriting
Part 1 is about 45 minutes:
https://www.npr.org/2024/05/22/1249394676/carol-the-los-angeles-uprising-part-1
Part 2 is a little shorter, under 40 minutes:
https://www.npr.org/2024/05/22/1249399705/inheriting-carol-park-losangelesuprising-parttwo
So I’m curious --and honest to god on my grandmother’s grave-- what made Kyle’s position not self defense? Because the argument I hear from conservatives is that was the place where he (and I believe his father too) worked.
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He was chased down
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He fired warning shot
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Indv 1 reached to grab his gun.
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KR shoots individual 1
Thanks for the links. I’m going through them now.
Because he went there looking for a fight. You can’t do that then claim self defense.
He drove 20 miles out of his way, across state lines, to put himself in danger. That’s not how self defense works.
The rebuttal to this I’ve heard is that it was his workplace and he had a right to defend it (or at least from his point of view) esp after witnessing what happened with the riots in mpls a few weeks prior. If he didn’t work there, I’d say I’d agree with your assessment. Does it matter if he worked there and it was an area he considered somewhat part of his community?
And just to be clear. I agree: in my opinion this kid had no business being there with an AR 15.
Yea, all 4 of them forced him to travel 20 miles so they could surround him.
Talk to a psychologist today. please.
Where did Kyle work? Where did his father live?
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Hook, line, and sinker. LMAO.
We got a sealion here…
Shoo, back into the muddy waters. Shoo!
Any time someone disagrees with me they are _______ (insert sealion or other term)
Does every act of self defense automatically classify someone as a murderer?
No. Acts of self defense happen every day, and the vast majority do not have people calling them a murder.
This is an incredibly disingenuous statement that is ignoring the facts around this specific case of self defense.BTW, for the record I’m a leftie progressive.
Irrelevant. Ad hominem. Whether or not you’re a leftie has no effect on the strength of the argument you are presenting.
the events that led to the death of those people that day was due to self defense.
Rittenhouse did manage to engineer a situation in which everyone involved had a credible claim of self defense. I will point out however that one of “the events that led to the death of those people that day” was Rittenhouse deciding to go to a town he had no good reason to be with the stated goal of “protecting property”.
If a criminal breaks into someone’s house and the owner charges at them with a baseball bat the criminal is “acting on self defense” if they shoot the owner. The criminal still shouldn’t have been there in the first place and the entire situation is the criminal’s fault.
Now replace the criminal with someone who had a grudge against the owner, and broke in hoping this would be the outcome. The legal system would only find them guilty of breaking and entering, but that person is a murderer.Anyone who disagrees needs to establish they know the facts
The fact of the matter is Rittenhouse’s stated reason for being there with a gun in the first place was to “protect property” from people who were protesting the murder of George Floyd. Because in his mind it is acceptable to shoot people to protect property, it is not acceptable to damage property to protect lives.
Can you demonstrate why it wasn’t self defense?
It’s both.
Yes, legally Rittenhouse was acting in self defense. He is also a murder who went there with the hope of being able to insert himself into a situation where he could kill someone.Does every act of self defense automatically classify someone as a murderer?
Depends on whether or not somebody was killed and whether or not you’re using the word “murderer” in its technical legal sense.
BTW, for the record I’m a leftie progressive.
Why bring that up? Your argument should be able to stand on its own. Am I supposed to say, “Oh, I didn’t agree with your argument before, but now that I know you’re on the same team I’m on, I can see it in a completely different light now!” GTFO.
Can you demonstrate why it wasn’t self defense?
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Sure, legally it was self defense. My read of the situation is that he clearly went looking for trouble with his shiny new AR, exactly as he’d expressed a desire to do.
He found the trouble he was looking for, and to his immense luck he not only managed to fight his way free of it, but managed to do so in a way that legally qualified as self defense, and also gave us this laughable performance to roll our eyes at.
Legally, self defense. In my opinion he went there to murder, he just didn’t know who it would be or whether he’d get his chance.
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Live look at @TheFonz.
The fonz? Do you mean outspoken cuntservative who is “totally a leftist”?
This is what happens when undereducated knuckledraggers do a psyop.
No i will argue that he is a transgender murderer.
Nothing wrong with being transgender. Find an insult that you aren’t borrowing from the far-right.
Don’t use bigoted slurs or marginalized groups as an insult, but absolutely use their other insults against them. In their minds those are the worst things you can call someone, and to hear them used against “their side” drives them wild.
Call their favorite fascist a “degenerate”, “freak”, or “NPC” – their reactions are hilarious.
The wiki article that covers the events of that night is a excellent resource.
He’s definitely a murderer, so that’s a thing.
Somehow this is a controversial opinion in America.
somewhere in America a far right person is gritting their teeth babbling something about ‘antifa’
That’s because so many governors have made hunting liberal protesters legal. It’ll be federally legalized if not mandated if Trump gets back in.
Mods deleted my comment on here ages ago for calling him a murderer. Doesn’t make it not true.
All of his shootings were legally self defense, and based on the evidence presented at trial the jury absolutely decided his case correctly. Grosskreutz will have a hard fight in his civil suit against Rittenhouse after admitting on the stand that he pointed his gun at Rittenhouse before Rittenhouse shot him. He might actually have an easier time against the city, county and police for not having sufficient police response to the previous shots fired.
Rittenhouse was also a complete and total idiot for being there in the first place, even more so for separating from his group, and he hasn’t demonstrated substantially better judgement any time since. Because he’s immensely, painfully stupid.
The only thing I don’t really get is why everyone seems so damned intent about spending time, attention and effort talking about him in the first place, regardless of what political side you’re on. I mean it’s weird they treated him like some kind of aspirational figure, it’s even more weird that they’re now accusing him of being trans as though that changes the value of anything he’s said before or since. But we really, really don’t need to give him any more of a spotlight than he already has.
All of his shootings were legally self defense
Not quite… The jury’s decision simply indicated that the prosecution did not meet their burden of proof, not that the defense’s position was accepted as fact. This is an important distinction.
… at trial the jury absolutely decided his case correctly.
Agreed, but keep in mind he was found to be not guilty, which is not the same thing as innocent.
Because he’s immensely, painfully stupid.
Immensely, painfully, and dangerously stupid.
But we really, really don’t need to give him any more of a spotlight than he already has.
Fair enough, but I think that this case should be taught in law school as an example of prosecutorial negligence in that if he were simply charged appropriately, 2nd degree non premeditated and/or manslaughter, he would be in prison now for a minimum of 15 years but probably closer to 25 years.
The choice to only charge 1st degree, which took on the burden of proving premeditation, was the biggest legal blunder of our time… worse than Alex Jones’s lawyer sending the full cell phone copy to the prosecutor, which was an absolute joy to watch live as it happened.
Fair enough, but I think that this case should be taught in law school as an example of prosecutorial negligence in that if he were simply charged appropriately, 2nd degree non premeditated and/or manslaughter, he would be in prison now for a minimum of 15 years but probably closer to 25 years.
The choice to only charge 1st degree, which took on the burden of proving premeditation, was the biggest legal blunder of our time… worse than Alex Jones’s lawyer sending the full cell phone copy to the prosecutor, which was an absolute joy to watch live as it happened.
You think? His defense was a pretty standard self defense argument. Or does having shown up to the general area at all remove his ability to claim self defense under those charges?
His defense was irrelevant because by only charging 1st degree, and not including the lesser charges, the prosecution took on the burden of proving premeditation, which was not possible to prove in this case.
Even if they were able to admit the evidence that KR had talked about his desire to kill protesters only weeks earlier, the prosecution would still have had trouble proving premeditation beyond a reasonable doubt given this heresy evidence alone.
He was found not guilty because the premeditation was not established beyond a reasonable doubt.
The self defense argument only would have been relevant if he had been charged with 2nd degree murder, reckless homicide, or manslaughter.
In the case of reckless homicide, his self defense argument would have failed due to the fact that a reasonable person would have known that bringing a loaded rifle into the middle of an unpredictable and potentially volatile situation would have the potential of resulting in death.
His unjustified and inappropriate presence that night instigated the conflict, and but for the fact that he was incorrectly charged, he would be in jail now.
Keep in mind that the verdict only establishes that the prosecution did not meet their burden of proof, not that the jury believed the self defense story.
This is honest to god the funniest thing happening in the Magaverse right now. It’s like they got their marching orders mixed up and their daily five minutes of hate that were supposed to be directed at Imane Khelif got swapped for Kyle Rittenhouse at the last minute and nobody questions the logic of it.
I am not sure to be happy or worried about this. On the one hand they could turn on themselves and be busy with infighting, leaving the rest of the world alone. On the other hand it is an extremely vile hateful ideology that can explode into massive violence easily.
Conservatives last week: “Kyle Rittenhouse was acting in self-defense and should be applauded for protecting the white race from BLM violence.”
Conservatives this week: “Kyle Rittenhouse is just one more example of the extremist violence in the LGBTQ community.”
We have always been at war with Eureast Asia.
“We have always been at war with Oceania”
The best books… are those that tell you what you know already. :)
Wow they turned on him even quicker than I would have expected. If he’d showed a hint of spine and didn’t cave immediately it might have infinitesimally moved my respect for him above 0.
The kid will make the right choice on something one day. Or he won’t. Meh.
He had a bunch of what I’m assuming were paid appearances canceled immediately.
Since he didn’t finish high school and turned down college scholarships, it was pretty easy to bring him to heel.
This piece of shit swirled himself to all the other pieces of shit, then forgot he was also shit in the shit stew.
He had a bunch of what I’m assuming were paid appearances canceled immediately.
The people against “cancel culture” strike again!
That you, Mr. Lahey?
Live by the sword, die by the sword.
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Those who live in fear of rejection seldom make the right choice unless it’s the popular thing to do.
He should go cry harder.
Rule #1 of the right.
If you’re not all in, you’re out.
“Fall in line.”
I feel gross having said that
I feel gross having said that
That’s good. There are those who fear feeling gross about saying that.
So Conservatives have been glorifying a Trans person, inviting them to speak, and had no idea this entire time?
It’s always the “trap”'s fault for tricking God-fearing men.
So much for those that “can always tell”.
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We don’t claim him.
🤣🤣
Dear Lord!
Republicans: “I don’t like what you’re saying therefore you’re a transgender”
It’s like Nazi Germany calling anything they didn’t like “Jewish”
Or “Intellectuals” aka woke.
Something something leopards and faces?
LOL he’s the exact embodiment of the entire GOP
He really is. Think about how many people have backed Trump thinking they could maintain their integrity and control the far right. Hell, you can see Trump having the same problems. He got booed when he suggested COVID vaccines and quickly backed off.
When you pump people full of fear and misinformation, you lose the ability to steer ship. All you can do is sell out, completely abandon your dignity and try to ride the crazy wave.
also according to the transvestigators, dylan mulvaney is actually afab who was forcibly transitioned and then transitioned BACK.
they’re not exactly the brightest.
“The proof is that there isn’t any proof”
“The proof is that there isn’t any proof”
Sums it up beautifully. I am so stealing this. Thank you!
What!? Everybody knows; Absence of evidence, isn’t evidence of absence. :)
All these people are idiots.
They’re also really weird.
Unfortunately, that means that the idiots won’t be learning the key lesson for them: “they will turn on you.”
