- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmy.ml
A U.S. Navy submarine has arrived in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, in a show of force as a fleet of Russian warships gather for planned military exercises in the Caribbean.
U.S. Southern Command said the USS Helena, a nuclear-powered fast attack submarine, pulled into the waters near the U.S. base in Cuba on Thursday, just a day after a Russian frigate, a nuclear-powered submarine, an oil tanker and a rescue tug crossed into Havana Bay after drills in the Atlantic Ocean.
The stop is part of a “routine port visit” as the submarine travels through Southern Command’s region, it said in a social media post.
Other U.S. ships also have been tracking and monitoring the Russian drills, which Pentagon officials say do not represent a threat to the United States.
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The stop is part of a “routine port visit” as the submarine travels through Southern Command’s region, it said in a social media post.
“But please don’t let that stop you from being terrified,” says the news media.
Terrified of what your ignorance? Russia has been sending nuclear-powered and nuclear-armed submarines off of the eastern and western seaboard for over 60 years. This is hardly anything new. Also, the cool thing about missiles that are intercontinental is that you can fire them for more than a continent away…
This is hardly anything new.
Yes, that was my point. I’m not sure why you thought my point was exactly the opposite.
See the new lemmy, same as the old reddit.
I think it’s pretty funny actually. This version of Helena is on her last cruise before being decommissioned. Shit is so not new we’re surfacing a boat built in 1987 to fly the flag and remind them they can go from sailor to swimmers at any second while near our coast, and if an LA class is around there’s probably a newer shark nearby.
IDK what the thinking is with this, but “let’s frighten the US by sending 4 ships over nearby to them after losing 29 of our vessels in a war with a country 15 times smaller, that doesn’t have a navy” seems like a non starter of an idea. Once people reach adolescence, this “I’m not touching you I’m not touching you, are you uncomfortable” crap just comes across as a highlight of how carefully you are adhering to the boundary you are walking up to so aggressive-looking-ly.
If that even is the thinking. IDK, maybe they are just doing exercises, and there’s no particular intent behind it and the US press is writing a bunch about it just because it is notable that it’s happening.
Russian media: “The powerful and manly Russian Navy has sailed right up to the cowardly Amerikkka NATO degenerates, and they did nothing! They fear the might of Russia, just as their mercenaries in Ukraine fear it! All hail the T-14!”
Etc, etc.
Dude it’s fuckin weird
I watched some videos from one of those pro-Russian military Youtube channels, and the whole thing is two years worth of uninterrupted victory, steady forward progress, missions accomplished and disasters for Ukraine. And yet, there’s no acknowledgement that if everything had gone as they said the Russian armed forces would have swept across Ukraine, on through Europe, and circled the globe 5 or 6 times by now, with how much progress they have made… but that in reality the eastern front line has in that time not gone anywhere.
I think Russia is pretty good at creating believable bullshit (they are certainly good at influencing elections), but when faced with an actual problem that objectively exists in the real world, it just looks hilarious to see them attacking it for 2 years continuously by simply insisting with absolute passionate confidence that they are solving it better than anything you’ve ever seen, and they’re on the verge of yet another great and crushing success, as everyone can see, just watch.
If that even is the thinking. IDK, maybe they are just doing exercises, and there’s no particular intent behind it and the US press is writing a bunch about it just because it is notable that it’s happening.
It’s brinkmanship. the Russians are trying to invoke the cuban missile crisis. AFAIK, they’re supply ships bringing stuff to Cuba; (but also “recruits” from Cuba.). But a large part of it is definitely meant to up the anty on all the “if you don’t stop supplying weapons I’ll use nukes” rhetoric.
Trying to do brinksmanship only works if there is believability to the idea of you crossing the brink. Putin who doesn’t want anyone to be allowed to sit near him, constantly asks his friend-countries if they’ve been hanging out with NATO behind his back, and managed to fuck up one war with one tiny country this badly with the whole weight of the biggest nation in the world behind the effort, is very different from Khrushchev overseeing the cold war and the development of the nuclear arsenal and directly challenging the Cuba blockade, banging his shoe on the podium at the UN and screaming “We will bury you!” Putin may view the threat that he will attack the US as believable, but I do not think that anyone in the US or Russian government considers it a strong possibility and like I said I think the “not touching you” game (if that is in fact what he’s doing) just makes him look weaker to both parties TBH.
(I hadn’t even really considered the death sentence that is attacking the US with nukes as on the table for Russia; the nuclear option I was envisioning was attacking Ukraine and gambling that the rest of the world would be so against starting WW3 that they could get away with it.)
You’re not wrong. At some point Putin is gonna have to grab the other guy and jump off that ledge, just to prove he would.
Which is the problem with brinksmanship.
“Now if you’re gonna stab, stab, Trigger. Don’t, you know… dance.”
If they kept those 4 near Ukraine, they’d be sunk by now too 🤣
By attempting a dick waving contest they are making sure they don’t end up in Davy Jones Locker.
Cuban
MissileWarship Crisis
That submarine was trailing the Russian ships the whole time, the Russian ships had no idea, and there are more submarines in the waters nearby. The whole purpose was to show the Russian ships that they are sitting ducks.
Submarines, much like wolves, travel in packs.
And the one you see always has friends nearby that you don’t.
Very much this. Unironically why we used to have a class of fast attack subs named after this, the Seawolf-class.
Oh they knew there were subs in the water…they just didn’t know where. The officers at least know we could turn their whole little armada into starter reefs at any time, the fact that we sent a boat scheduled to be scrapped later this year to surface is an extra fuck you flex that has to be intentional. We’re just now phasing out boats from the 80’s and they can’t keep a fleet afloat in a landlocked sea.
I don’t think a dick waving contest is going to work out well for the blyats.
The Americans are the evil ones in the Cuba situation
You’re a fool to think that Cuba is anything more than a pawn for Russia. But you can ask the dead Cuban mercenaries’ families, if you’d like.
Not that I approve of American policy toward Cuba, but that has fuck all to do with this dumbass development.
You can categorize any smaller country as a pawn when they’re placed between two competing powers, but they often really don’t have much of a choice in that.
And TBF Castro wanted to push the Cuban missile crisis a hell of a lot further then then Khrushchev was willing to. So maybe more pitbull than pawn, at least for a time.
But real talk, America has horribly exploited and abused Cuba since the Spanish-American war, and let’s just say, still lightly meddled in their affairs for nearly 50 years prior to the post war occupation.
So getting your feels up in a twist about Russia managing to sail a handful of warships to Cuba, is kinda petty. Especially considering that it’s even odds that the fucking engines catch fire on the return trip.
I wouldn’t worry. This is the bookkeeping of naval deterrence. Neither side expects to actually fire.
There is no comparison to the Cuban Missile Crisis, except that Cuba and the navies are somehow involved.
I was wondering if Putin is using this as an excuse so he can secretly plant nukes in Cuba and Venezuela
His MAD is about as strong as it needs to be. That wouldn’t appreciably change the situation, so he probably wouldn’t do it, and if he did the only issue would be a bit of proliferation.
I’m guessing the primary motive to send their ship in the first place was to be seen sticking it to the West somehow, domestically. The West itself won’t care.
Why does the US have a base in Guantanamo Bay, anyway? I thought the government of Cuba has protested it for literally half a century?
I guess it’s for the same reason why the US embargo of Cuba has seen mass condemnation in the UN General Assembly for more than 30 years without result…
Might makes right?
Why does the US have a base in Guantanamo Bay, anyway?
Because of a 1903 lease agreement with no end date which the post-revolutionary government has not gone back on so far. They protest it, but they have yet to actually say the terms have changed. And they also have a backlog of U.S. money waiting for them when they wish to renegotiate. Don’t underestimate the PR boost having a U.S. naval base on Cuban soil gives to the Cuban government the same way having North Korea and South Korea share a border is good propaganda for both countries.
Um are you sure? Because everything I read says they don’t want it but the US won’t leave.
Yes, again, they protest it but also refuse to renegotiate it.
This is a good example of geopolitics.
I never understood how slavery could stand for so long… But I guess now I do?
Nevermind that the embargo on Cuba limits the utility of US money.
Edit: for a similar scenario, look at the conditions for Haitian “independence” from France. France forced Haiti to pay for the lost property (read: slaves) that were freed by independence, costing the Haitian economy something like 20 billion dollars of economic contribution… For daring to free slaves. But oh no my agreements!
All Cuba has to do is go to the negotiating table. It is good for their propaganda to not do so and they don’t need Guantanamo for anything.
All Haiti has to do was send it’s slaves back to France, I really don’t see the problem.
Are you really equating the U.S. sending a yearly uncashed check and keeping a Naval base at the ass end of Cuba with people being enslaved?
You should maybe read up on Haitian independence…
So you are saying a U.S. naval base at the ass-end of Cuba is the same as human enslavement?
Nice way to twist the story with irrelevant technicalities (that I haven’t been able to verify. Cuba is pretty clear about wanting the US base gone).
US would never give up Guantanamo Bay. Cuba has 0 negotiation advantages because they’re a small poor country whose economy is being crippled by US blokkades for decades.
Edit: Apparently it wasn’t clear that by information I wasn’t being able to verify, I mean the claim that Cuba for some reason would want to have an occupying force on their land and therefore doesn’t want to renegotiate the treaty.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cuban–American_Treaty_of_Relations_(1903)
Literally first search result.
What’s wrong with you?
Just a tankie backing up another tankie there. (I checked their post history, and it checks out)
Thank you for the link it’s an enlightening read that I’m sure will get ignored.
Please define the term tankie for me and how it applies to me.
I’m a communist, you can just call it by its name.
… It’s a preposterously easy to find bit of information.
Us fought a war with Spain. Spain lost and got booted from the Americas, Asia and Pacific, with the US taking Guam, Cuba, Puerto Rico and the Philippines.
A few years later we stipulated that Cuba’s independence was conditional on allowing a navel base to remain under US control, Cuba reluctantly agreed, and a lease was signed with no end date with the US paying rent for the land.When nations change governments, there is always a period of figuring out how treaties and debts are assumed. Usually the successor government assumes at least a portion of “fair” debt inherited from the previous government. (No, we’re not paying for the ammunition the previous government shot at us, yes we’re going to pay the interest on the loan for agricultural supplies). Same goes for treaties.
Post revolution Cuba did the usual and continued international relations as “Cuba”, and not a brand new entity. Hence their argument being that the lease treaty is and was illegitimate, not just “not recognized”, inapplicable or rejected. The US holds it’s a perfectly legitimate agreement and keeps sending payment on time. Everyone agrees there’s an agreement between the US and Cuba around the base, with the contention being about the legitimacy of the 1903 treaty, not it’s applicability.Yes, Cuba has no leverage to pressure negotiations in their favor. This was true before the embargo as well as after. No, they did not really have a viable alternative to agreeing to the lease. The best option sucking is usually not considered to make a treaty invalid.
Fair or not, the treaty is generally regarded as legitimate, which limits Cuba’s options to use the law to compel the US to leave.
With no interest in negotiation, nothing to offer, no military force, and US complacency with the status quo, the odds of both parties agreeing to end the lease is pretty low.☝️ an excellent breakdown of the actual situation.
As I said, the technicalities of why the US claims that their presence on Guantanamo Bay is rightful is irrelevant, the reason they still hold it is 100% their militarily and economically domination over Cuba (which the US keeps in place with their illegal blokkades), making it impossible for Cuba to have any negotiation power.
When the contract was made Cuba could not refuse it because the US had already occupied Cuba. A contract that is made with an army standing at your door to invade if you don’t sign it is not a legitimate contract. The US is a coloniser and Cuba is just one of the examples. Cuba got lucky though because they at least got some independence (albeit with constant interference of the US trying to spark a civil war).
Unfortunately, there are no agreements between nations that don’t involve the presence of armies. One of the byproducts of the US fighting Spain to kick them out of Cuba is that the US army is necessarily involved. The alternative was continued Spanish colonialism, not an independent Cuba.
Do you find the German or Japanese surrender treaties to be illegitimate because they were made at gunpoint?
The US could have left Cuba after the war was won, and they can even leave today. Implying that that’s not an option is crazy. Guantanamo Bay is currently used to undermine Cuban independence and enforce an illegal blockade that heavily impacts the lives of all Cuba’s citizens. Implying that that’s not a bad thing or that the US should not stop doing active harm to Cuba’s citizens in this way is pretty disgusting imo.
Starving a whole country because you don’t agree with its politics is monstrous behaviour.
I don’t think I implied that we couldn’t leave, or even that we shouldn’t. I said that Cuba’s not going to get us to leave by asserting that the agreement was never valid, because that’s just going to get the response of “yes it is”. For better or worse nations negotiate backed with weapons, and a power imbalance is inevitable.
It’s not even a matter of right or wrong, just reality. Few would argue that the Japanese constitution is illegitimate and that power should rightly devolve back to the Empire of Japan.You have some misapprehensions about the embargo of Cuba. It’s sometimes called a blockade for rhetorical effect, but it’s not actually a blockade.
It’s not “enforced” from Guantanamo bay, it’s enforced by civil penalties levied by the Treasury department on US entities and their subsidiaries, and to a limited extent by the department of state through threats of potential trade or diplomatic consequences.Cuba can and does trade with other nations, including US allies, and even the US. The harm the embargo does is via sharply limiting the availability of the lines of credit smaller nations rely on for continuing development of their infrastructure, not by literally preventing boats full of food from landing. Additional harm is done by denying them access to the largest convenient trading partner in the region for non-food, non-medical (embargo terms have excluded those items for decades) trades which further harms their economy by denying them a reliable cash influx their neighbors rely on, as well as making imports more expensive through sheer transport distance.
Justified or not, and regardless of poor negotiating position, refusal to engage in a dialogue is not helping Cuba’s position.
They have their own ideological motivations for refusing to engage. Even a tacit acknowledgement that maybe they shouldn’t have nationalized the assets of US companies without compensation would get them a lot of negotiation credit, and it costs them nothing, except for the ideological factors. The US doesn’t get much out of it, and $6 billion 1959 can be written off fairly easily for the PR win.One side doesn’t need to budge, and the other one refuses, and they both have their reasons. I believe that was the point OP was going for.
Any of them arrive in the time honored Russian tradition of:
A) on fire
B) pouring smoke from hidden fire
C) shooting each other
D) all of the above
Damn American imperialists!
Is this Cold War II?
Russian ships get embarrassingly damaged/sunk by Ukrainian drones/cruise missiles.
“Hey, Venezuela is fantastic this time of the year!” - Russian Navy
Maduro will be welcoming them with open arms and appreciates the attention from daddy Putin. Gotta prop his own autocracy somehow.
Funny games. The US probably has spies on the Russian ships. Russia may have a spy or two on the US sub. Neither side is remotely surprised by any of the public information on this.
Wait, doesn’t the US like hate Cuba and everything?
Why does it sent submarines there but not fucking furniture and cars? Is it just russia of the west?
The US sends Cuba a check to rent Guantanamo bay. Cuba doesn’t cash it.
I kinda suspect Cuba would prefer to evict the tenant but in this situation the one with the nuclear powered subs gets to set the terms.
Holy propaganda Batman!
That’ll show’em.
