I can’t argue with any of that. What I’m stuck on is just what the fuck to do now and what comes next.
Can you elaborate on your thoughts? I honestly can’t see a way out except for eating another shit sandwich and hoping that incrementalism can save us once sanity returns. But fuck, we’re cooked, sanity is gone for good so I’m out of ideas and the alternative only makes it worse for everyone. I’m at a point where I’m happy to vote against my best interests but that’s kinda what I feel I’ve been doing all this time.
Incrementalism is what got us here. We were led to believe that incremental baby steps is what was necessary for progress. They use those incremental baby steps as small, little, minute, undetectable steps to the right. They compartmentalized the rightward shift so all we saw were small puzzle pieces and couldn’t piece them together to show the larger overall picture. And when people started to challenge their views, they would throw the marginalized communities in front of them to defend their actions, ’ you challenging our systems might hurt this black person, it might throw this lgbtq+ person under the bus,’ etc. and I use that tactic to silence opposition. It’s the same tactic that Republicans use when they scream ‘save the children’
If incrementalism actually worked, we wouldn’t be having the same discussions about wages and housing and healthcare and education that we were having 50 60 70 years ago.
Regarding P2025 we are at the
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me
So right, I get all that, but I’m not terribly interested in retribution for what got us here, I’m interested in tangible ways to go forward. I think all our choices are shit right now so what, just don’t vote so that I can sniff my own farts for being above it all?
I’m at the point where I agree…ish. I do believe that there is a lot of deliberate actions by the power structure of both parties but I see some actual humanity and thought coming from one side, pure spite and malice from the other and complete and utter insanity from the comedy option. Problem is the humanity in the party has gotten nothing done (not for their lack of trying) and has no control so I am have officially given up on them.
So I’m left with zero options. Great fucking country we have here that I’m utterly trapped within.
I think it would help to imagine this as if we’ve already arrived at the peak of fascism - what would you be doing then? Likely mutual aid, political (probably undergroud) organizing, civil disobedience, ect. This is what they mean when anarchists say ‘you can’t vote fascism away’, and this is what leftists mean when they say voting in this election doesn’t really address the crisis.
The hard work of resisting fascism happens everywhere but the ballot box.
The hard work of resisting fascism happens everywhere but the ballot box.
You realize that doing all of that hard work would be much harder under Trump than Biden right?
Even if you’re the most communist person ever, it makes sense to vote for Biden, he atleast tolerates your existence, and that’ll make all praxis easier than under Mr. “Root out the communist vermin” Trump
Biden has never once called communists vermin, never once called for them to be expelled from our society, Biden has worked repeatedly with socialist politicians here and abroad.
There’s a monumental difference between Trump and Biden, but I guess if you refuse to engage in basic political analysis and see the difference between Liberalism and Fascism you can just sit on your island over there remaining eternally politically ineffective.
That’s not the point: voting is unrelated to the work of uprooting fascism. If you spend all your energy getting Biden elected, you are still no closer to solving the problem.
There is some credence to using that as leverage to get liberals (whose only concern seems to be getting their guy elected) to engage the actual work of eliminating fascism, but that’s not what I was advocating here.
That’s not the point: voting is unrelated to the work of uprooting fascism.
I mean that’s partially true, but If the praxis for destroying American fascism is going to be so much harder under the rule of the fascist rather than the rule of the liberal, then shouldn’t making sure the liberal stays be a prerequisite to the other praxis?
If you spend all your energy getting Biden elected, you are still no closer to solving the problem.
I certainly don’t think it’s the only thing leftists should be focusing on. We need more organization around lots of things other than electoral politics (Union’s, Economic Rights, Building Up Socialist Orgs, etc), but I don’t see us making real gains federally with any of these other spheres of organizing with Trump in power.
shouldn’t making sure the liberal stays be a prerequisite to the other praxis?
Certainly not a prerequisite, no. The work that needs doing is no different in either case, and is met with hostility (of different scales, sure) under either presidency. Both will protect the institutions we seek to dismantle with force; one will simply be more open about it than the other.
For a leftist, neither candidate changes that reality. It will simply be more comfortable under one than the other.
For a leftist, neither candidate changes that reality. It will simply be more comfortable under one than the other.
I mean, I’m perfectly aware Biden isn’t going to institute an American Meidner plan or start nationalizing key infrastructure and industries tomorrow and would probably vehemently oppose anyone trying to do so.
But if all I have to do is show up one day this year, and try and get my friends to do the same, just to not be possibly persecuted for any LGBT or socialist affiliations, that feels like not that big of a hassle for the gain of atleast keeping the status quo.
Every other volunteering and organizing day of the year is still going to be towards something not directly related to electoral politics.
Thanks, I appreciate the perspective, I’m trying to pull myself out of this bullshit, never been more clear that my vote means nothing, the system does as the system does.
I can’t argue with any of that. What I’m stuck on is just what the fuck to do now and what comes next.
Can you elaborate on your thoughts? I honestly can’t see a way out except for eating another shit sandwich and hoping that incrementalism can save us once sanity returns. But fuck, we’re cooked, sanity is gone for good so I’m out of ideas and the alternative only makes it worse for everyone. I’m at a point where I’m happy to vote against my best interests but that’s kinda what I feel I’ve been doing all this time.
Incrementalism is what got us here. We were led to believe that incremental baby steps is what was necessary for progress. They use those incremental baby steps as small, little, minute, undetectable steps to the right. They compartmentalized the rightward shift so all we saw were small puzzle pieces and couldn’t piece them together to show the larger overall picture. And when people started to challenge their views, they would throw the marginalized communities in front of them to defend their actions, ’ you challenging our systems might hurt this black person, it might throw this lgbtq+ person under the bus,’ etc. and I use that tactic to silence opposition. It’s the same tactic that Republicans use when they scream ‘save the children’
If incrementalism actually worked, we wouldn’t be having the same discussions about wages and housing and healthcare and education that we were having 50 60 70 years ago.
Regarding P2025 we are at the
Then they came for me And there was no one left To speak out for me
Martin Niemöller’s poem First They Came
So right, I get all that, but I’m not terribly interested in retribution for what got us here, I’m interested in tangible ways to go forward. I think all our choices are shit right now so what, just don’t vote so that I can sniff my own farts for being above it all?
I’m at the point where I agree…ish. I do believe that there is a lot of deliberate actions by the power structure of both parties but I see some actual humanity and thought coming from one side, pure spite and malice from the other and complete and utter insanity from the comedy option. Problem is the humanity in the party has gotten nothing done (not for their lack of trying) and has no control so I am have officially given up on them.
So I’m left with zero options. Great fucking country we have here that I’m utterly trapped within.
I think it would help to imagine this as if we’ve already arrived at the peak of fascism - what would you be doing then? Likely mutual aid, political (probably undergroud) organizing, civil disobedience, ect. This is what they mean when anarchists say ‘you can’t vote fascism away’, and this is what leftists mean when they say voting in this election doesn’t really address the crisis.
The hard work of resisting fascism happens everywhere but the ballot box.
You realize that doing all of that hard work would be much harder under Trump than Biden right?
Even if you’re the most communist person ever, it makes sense to vote for Biden, he atleast tolerates your existence, and that’ll make all praxis easier than under Mr. “Root out the communist vermin” Trump
Biden doesn’t tolerate our existence any more than Trump, they are equally hostile to everyone that challenges their power
Bullshit.
Biden has never once called communists vermin, never once called for them to be expelled from our society, Biden has worked repeatedly with socialist politicians here and abroad.
There’s a monumental difference between Trump and Biden, but I guess if you refuse to engage in basic political analysis and see the difference between Liberalism and Fascism you can just sit on your island over there remaining eternally politically ineffective.
Trump called immigrants rapists and murderers, but Biden has been deporting just as many or more than Trump ever did when he was in office.
Biden doesn’t use fascist rhetoric but he’s still liberal with the use of force.
He doesnt use the fascist rhetoric, but in action hes another Trump
Liberalism is a branch fascism.
He and his party have
Total House vote 328 86
That’s not the point: voting is unrelated to the work of uprooting fascism. If you spend all your energy getting Biden elected, you are still no closer to solving the problem.
There is some credence to using that as leverage to get liberals (whose only concern seems to be getting their guy elected) to engage the actual work of eliminating fascism, but that’s not what I was advocating here.
I mean that’s partially true, but If the praxis for destroying American fascism is going to be so much harder under the rule of the fascist rather than the rule of the liberal, then shouldn’t making sure the liberal stays be a prerequisite to the other praxis?
I certainly don’t think it’s the only thing leftists should be focusing on. We need more organization around lots of things other than electoral politics (Union’s, Economic Rights, Building Up Socialist Orgs, etc), but I don’t see us making real gains federally with any of these other spheres of organizing with Trump in power.
Certainly not a prerequisite, no. The work that needs doing is no different in either case, and is met with hostility (of different scales, sure) under either presidency. Both will protect the institutions we seek to dismantle with force; one will simply be more open about it than the other.
For a leftist, neither candidate changes that reality. It will simply be more comfortable under one than the other.
I mean, I’m perfectly aware Biden isn’t going to institute an American Meidner plan or start nationalizing key infrastructure and industries tomorrow and would probably vehemently oppose anyone trying to do so.
But if all I have to do is show up one day this year, and try and get my friends to do the same, just to not be possibly persecuted for any LGBT or socialist affiliations, that feels like not that big of a hassle for the gain of atleast keeping the status quo.
Every other volunteering and organizing day of the year is still going to be towards something not directly related to electoral politics.
Thanks, I appreciate the perspective, I’m trying to pull myself out of this bullshit, never been more clear that my vote means nothing, the system does as the system does.