This sounds like you want to implement social changes within the existing system. This is the lie of progressives and radlibs. It will never work.
No, I want to radically change the system. Doing that of course involves using the system. We need to move from liberal democracy to social democracy. And our democracy must be fixed to have majority rule. It can work, but nothing is guaranteed. This is no different than how a revolution can succeed, but has no guaranteed outcome. As long as we have a democracy we might as well use it.
We need to dissolve the United States of America. There is nothing here worth salvaging, save the people.
Dissolving the US will result in the death of hundreds of millions of people. People have to eat. When societies collapse, their populations tank with them, because the people lose the state centralization they are dependent on to get basic necessities.
There is no saving the people without inclusive political and economic institutions. If we value people then we must fix the systems they depend on to live.
Social democracy is a farce. That’s exactly what I mean. It’s a fairy tale told by progressives and radlibs
Dissolving the US will result in the death of hundreds of millions of people. People have to eat. When societies collapse, their populations tank with them, because the people lose the state centralization they are dependent on to get basic necessities
Sounds like you desperately need to read some theory. This is some liberal shit
Edit: I see in your comment history you calling yourself a “progressive.” You’re lying now and saying leftist. I think you’re completely untrustworthy.
Social democracy is a farce. That’s exactly what I mean. It’s a fairy tale told by progressives and radlibs
It’s a political ideology with a set of ideas and policies. Social democracies have existed in Nordic countries for decades. How they have done is debatable, but they do exist.
Sounds like you desperately need to read some theory. This is some liberal shit
I recommend Why Nations Fail. It’s been really good so far, but I’m still only half way through. So far, they seem to have missed that capitalism is inherently extractive and thus always at odds with an inclusive political institution like democracy. Private corporations are inherently incentivized by profit margins to undermine democracy. To remove regulations, oversight, taxes, etc. This is the contradiction of liberal democracy that social democracy solves. By adopting socialism, so the workers own the companies they work for, workers are included in both the nation’s political and economic intuitions. Since only the worker class exists, there is no one being incentivized to undermine the people’s institutions.
I hope neoliberals like Biden starts saying stuff like that, that would be awesome.
Social Democracy isn’t Socialism, it’s Capitalism with safety nets.
It is is a form of socialism. The fact it has a market economy does not mean it is capitalism.
Workers do not own the Means of Production in Nordic Countries.
I didn’t say they did. Like most countries they have a mixed economy. No one has yet abandoned capitalism entirely. The fact they haven’t adopted every socialist position does not mean they aren’t socialist. I am saying social democracies need to adopt that policy. Workers owning corporations as apposed to share holders is not incompatible with social democracy, but a logical inclusion.
I believe reading Leftist theory would do a lot for you.
You know this stuff isn’t just theory right? It has practical applications in real life too.
Social Democracy is not Market Socialism. Social Democracy is Capitalism with expansive social safety nets, not Worker Ownership of the Means of Production. This is fundamental. Again, Social Democracy is not a transitional state towards Socialism nor Socialism itself, but welfare Capitalism.
Leftist theory does in fact have practical applications. Being confidently incorrect as you have been is impractical, hence the importance of theory.
Social Democracy is not Market Socialism. Social Democracy is Capitalism with expansive social safety nets, not Worker Ownership of the Means of Production. This is fundamental. Again, Social Democracy is not a transitional state towards Socialism nor Socialism itself, but welfare Capitalism.
This is a description of current working social democracies which have not fully adopted socialism and still have potential in that regard. Social democracy is a collection of ideas and policies. Workers owning companies as opposed to share holders is not incompatible with social democracy even if it’s not something that’s being done currently at scale. Again market economies are not inherently capitalist. Welfare is also a part of the picture, but it’s not enough it’s own. Welfare is covering for systemic issues that have to fundamentally fixed.
Leftist theory does in fact have practical applications. Being confidently incorrect as you have been is impractical, hence the importance of theory.
Yes, it does have practical applications. I have nothing to do with the veracity of the ideas I espouse. Theory can only take us so far. I’m not interested in being limited by our current iteration of social democracy or our current definitions of socialism or social democracy. If we go with the description of social democracy in your argument, then that will be insufficient to fix our current societal problems.
Believe me, I understand what Capitalism is and isn’t, what Socialism is and isn’t, and what Social Democracy is and isn’t. Social Democracy isn’t Socialism, and the Nordic Countries are not Socialist, nor are they moving towards Socialism.
Yes, Social Democracy is insufficient. We need both leftist theory and practice. You are attempting to reject what leftists have learned and built on to do what has already failed, a mistake no leftist should be making.
Believe me, I understand what Capitalism is and isn’t, what Socialism is and isn’t, and what Social Democracy is and isn’t. Social Democracy isn’t Socialism, and the Nordic Countries are not Socialist, nor are they moving towards Socialism.
Social democracy is a form a socialism. Social democrats in Nordic Countries apparently are aligning themselves with groups on the right. I am saying we need to move to socialism.
Yes, Social Democracy is insufficient. We need both leftist theory and practice. You are attempting to reject what leftists have learned and built on to do what has already failed, a mistake no leftist should be making.
I think we are talking past each other at this point. I’m very much saying we need workers to own corporations as part of social democracy.
This book and the things you’re describing here may be left of, say, typical neoliberalism in that it entertains some thoughts about the perpetual threat of revolution, but ultimately it is yet another propaganda piece published in a desperate attempt to maintain the chains of capitalist society. Of course, some leftist theories don’t even seek change through revolution, opting instead for more of a community-style approach, which is why you see groups like the Zaptistas. No leftist theory of which I’m aware seeks change (at least, not the bulk of its change) through the existing system. This would be absurd in that it is true that there will always be inequities inherent to capitalism. Take the most socially democratic state in the world, and they’re still relying on wage inequities, forced labor, and worse.
Here are some personal suggestions, as a starting point:
No leftist theory of which I’m aware seeks change (at least, not the bulk of its change) through the existing system. This would be absurd in that it is true that there will always be inequities inherent to capitalism. Take the most socially democratic state in the world, and they’re still relying on wage inequities, forced labor, and worse.
Theory is great, but we have to apply the theory to our real lives as best we can. As I said, how effective existing social democracies have been is debatable, but they are a working model of some, but not all, of the ideas and policies. Grassroot movements seek to radically change the system using the system. That’s the modern progressive experiment. The only way to find out if it works is to do it. Like anything else I believe success is possible, but not guaranteed.
What I don’t understand is your fixation with claiming that people aren’t what they claim to be. I’ve seen it in this comment section. You did it with another anarchist. I am a social democrat. I don’t know any neoliberals who would say any of the things that I believe in and tell people about.
You’ve said many times that you’re an anarchist on lemmy. I don’t see why you would lie about that. But I really don’t get why you engage in this discourse this way. You are by no means the only person who does this by the way. So, it’s been nagging at me. I go around telling people about my socialist political views in my day to day life when politics comes up.
You are an anarchist in real life right? You tell people something to the effect of “I’m an anarchist and I think we should live in some form of stateless society” when discussions of politics come up. Your political views as an anarchist are not some internet persona you adopt for fun right? This isn’t some kind of fictional fan wiki page you like to maintain? You actually want to live in a state of anarchy IRL? I am genuinely asking, this is not a rhetorical line of reasoning.
If social democracy is to out there for you to see working in real life, I can’t image you wanting to be an anarchist. We don’t have a way to make a true stateless society work at the scale of 8.1 billion people. It would be cool if we did. I think it’s possible. I just don’t know how to make that work yet. Hopefully someone actually figures it out one day.
We have concrete ideas and policies to purse with social democracy so that is why I purse creating that system. If I had a better system to pursue I would do so. I believe social democracy is not the end all be all of political and economic inventions. Just a strict improvement over liberal democracy.
I think the worlds nations adopting social democracy is not detrimental to anarchism. If anything, I think it would broaden people’s horizons to the possibility of some kind of stateless society. So I don’t see why an anarchist would be against social democracy. It’s probably not an anarchist’s ideal society, but I don’t see why it would necessarily be something to oppose. There is a progression to any technology. Political and economic ideas are no different. We have to crawl before we can walk.
Inclusive political and economic intuitions like democracy and socialism are about people deciding how to run things for themselves. We use representation in democracy to make it scale, not because we want some absolute authority to dictate to use how to live our lives. We want leaders not rulers. We want freedom so we create and maintain systems that include the people who live in them so we can all make decisions about our own lives. But the systems have to work for the hundreds of millions or even billions of people who live with those systems. The answer to our current societal problems cannot be, let almost everyone die, so the survivors can live under a more ideal system that scales to their smaller population. People matter. edit: typo
Okay, I don’t follow. But please answer my question. It wasn’t rhetorical. If me just asking you this bugs you so much, so you wouldn’t answer the first time I asked, I don’t get why it would be a go to option for you to say to other people. Is this just gatekeeping then?
No, I want to radically change the system. Doing that of course involves using the system. We need to move from liberal democracy to social democracy. And our democracy must be fixed to have majority rule. It can work, but nothing is guaranteed. This is no different than how a revolution can succeed, but has no guaranteed outcome. As long as we have a democracy we might as well use it.
Dissolving the US will result in the death of hundreds of millions of people. People have to eat. When societies collapse, their populations tank with them, because the people lose the state centralization they are dependent on to get basic necessities.
There is no saving the people without inclusive political and economic institutions. If we value people then we must fix the systems they depend on to live.
Social democracy is a farce. That’s exactly what I mean. It’s a fairy tale told by progressives and radlibs
Sounds like you desperately need to read some theory. This is some liberal shit
Edit: I see in your comment history you calling yourself a “progressive.” You’re lying now and saying leftist. I think you’re completely untrustworthy.
It’s a political ideology with a set of ideas and policies. Social democracies have existed in Nordic countries for decades. How they have done is debatable, but they do exist.
I recommend Why Nations Fail. It’s been really good so far, but I’m still only half way through. So far, they seem to have missed that capitalism is inherently extractive and thus always at odds with an inclusive political institution like democracy. Private corporations are inherently incentivized by profit margins to undermine democracy. To remove regulations, oversight, taxes, etc. This is the contradiction of liberal democracy that social democracy solves. By adopting socialism, so the workers own the companies they work for, workers are included in both the nation’s political and economic intuitions. Since only the worker class exists, there is no one being incentivized to undermine the people’s institutions.
I hope neoliberals like Biden starts saying stuff like that, that would be awesome.
Social Democracy isn’t Socialism, it’s Capitalism with safety nets. Workers do not own the Means of Production in Nordic Countries.
I believe reading Leftist theory would do a lot for you.
It is is a form of socialism. The fact it has a market economy does not mean it is capitalism.
I didn’t say they did. Like most countries they have a mixed economy. No one has yet abandoned capitalism entirely. The fact they haven’t adopted every socialist position does not mean they aren’t socialist. I am saying social democracies need to adopt that policy. Workers owning corporations as apposed to share holders is not incompatible with social democracy, but a logical inclusion.
You know this stuff isn’t just theory right? It has practical applications in real life too.
Social Democracy is not Market Socialism. Social Democracy is Capitalism with expansive social safety nets, not Worker Ownership of the Means of Production. This is fundamental. Again, Social Democracy is not a transitional state towards Socialism nor Socialism itself, but welfare Capitalism.
Leftist theory does in fact have practical applications. Being confidently incorrect as you have been is impractical, hence the importance of theory.
This is a description of current working social democracies which have not fully adopted socialism and still have potential in that regard. Social democracy is a collection of ideas and policies. Workers owning companies as opposed to share holders is not incompatible with social democracy even if it’s not something that’s being done currently at scale. Again market economies are not inherently capitalist. Welfare is also a part of the picture, but it’s not enough it’s own. Welfare is covering for systemic issues that have to fundamentally fixed.
Yes, it does have practical applications. I have nothing to do with the veracity of the ideas I espouse. Theory can only take us so far. I’m not interested in being limited by our current iteration of social democracy or our current definitions of socialism or social democracy. If we go with the description of social democracy in your argument, then that will be insufficient to fix our current societal problems.
Believe me, I understand what Capitalism is and isn’t, what Socialism is and isn’t, and what Social Democracy is and isn’t. Social Democracy isn’t Socialism, and the Nordic Countries are not Socialist, nor are they moving towards Socialism.
Yes, Social Democracy is insufficient. We need both leftist theory and practice. You are attempting to reject what leftists have learned and built on to do what has already failed, a mistake no leftist should be making.
Social democracy is a form a socialism. Social democrats in Nordic Countries apparently are aligning themselves with groups on the right. I am saying we need to move to socialism.
I think we are talking past each other at this point. I’m very much saying we need workers to own corporations as part of social democracy.
This book and the things you’re describing here may be left of, say, typical neoliberalism in that it entertains some thoughts about the perpetual threat of revolution, but ultimately it is yet another propaganda piece published in a desperate attempt to maintain the chains of capitalist society. Of course, some leftist theories don’t even seek change through revolution, opting instead for more of a community-style approach, which is why you see groups like the Zaptistas. No leftist theory of which I’m aware seeks change (at least, not the bulk of its change) through the existing system. This would be absurd in that it is true that there will always be inequities inherent to capitalism. Take the most socially democratic state in the world, and they’re still relying on wage inequities, forced labor, and worse.
Here are some personal suggestions, as a starting point:
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/carlo-cafiero-karl-marx-s-capital
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/petr-kropotkin-the-conquest-of-bread
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/peter-gelderloos-anarchy-works
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/petr-kropotkin-mutual-aid-a-factor-of-evolution
There are four I’d personally recommend.
There are non-monetized youtube channels with free audiobook versions of all of these books, if you prefer audio.
I appreciate the recommendations.
Theory is great, but we have to apply the theory to our real lives as best we can. As I said, how effective existing social democracies have been is debatable, but they are a working model of some, but not all, of the ideas and policies. Grassroot movements seek to radically change the system using the system. That’s the modern progressive experiment. The only way to find out if it works is to do it. Like anything else I believe success is possible, but not guaranteed.
“working” model in that they’re working as intended-- by churning profits out of an inherently inequitable system.
Sounds like you might be a neoliberal tbh
What I don’t understand is your fixation with claiming that people aren’t what they claim to be. I’ve seen it in this comment section. You did it with another anarchist. I am a social democrat. I don’t know any neoliberals who would say any of the things that I believe in and tell people about.
You’ve said many times that you’re an anarchist on lemmy. I don’t see why you would lie about that. But I really don’t get why you engage in this discourse this way. You are by no means the only person who does this by the way. So, it’s been nagging at me. I go around telling people about my socialist political views in my day to day life when politics comes up.
You are an anarchist in real life right? You tell people something to the effect of “I’m an anarchist and I think we should live in some form of stateless society” when discussions of politics come up. Your political views as an anarchist are not some internet persona you adopt for fun right? This isn’t some kind of fictional fan wiki page you like to maintain? You actually want to live in a state of anarchy IRL? I am genuinely asking, this is not a rhetorical line of reasoning.
If social democracy is to out there for you to see working in real life, I can’t image you wanting to be an anarchist. We don’t have a way to make a true stateless society work at the scale of 8.1 billion people. It would be cool if we did. I think it’s possible. I just don’t know how to make that work yet. Hopefully someone actually figures it out one day.
We have concrete ideas and policies to purse with social democracy so that is why I purse creating that system. If I had a better system to pursue I would do so. I believe social democracy is not the end all be all of political and economic inventions. Just a strict improvement over liberal democracy.
I think the worlds nations adopting social democracy is not detrimental to anarchism. If anything, I think it would broaden people’s horizons to the possibility of some kind of stateless society. So I don’t see why an anarchist would be against social democracy. It’s probably not an anarchist’s ideal society, but I don’t see why it would necessarily be something to oppose. There is a progression to any technology. Political and economic ideas are no different. We have to crawl before we can walk.
Inclusive political and economic intuitions like democracy and socialism are about people deciding how to run things for themselves. We use representation in democracy to make it scale, not because we want some absolute authority to dictate to use how to live our lives. We want leaders not rulers. We want freedom so we create and maintain systems that include the people who live in them so we can all make decisions about our own lives. But the systems have to work for the hundreds of millions or even billions of people who live with those systems. The answer to our current societal problems cannot be, let almost everyone die, so the survivors can live under a more ideal system that scales to their smaller population. People matter. edit: typo
That’s no anarchist
Okay, I don’t follow. But please answer my question. It wasn’t rhetorical. If me just asking you this bugs you so much, so you wouldn’t answer the first time I asked, I don’t get why it would be a go to option for you to say to other people. Is this just gatekeeping then?