- cross-posted to:
- programmerhumor@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- programmerhumor@lemmy.ml
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/14869314
“I want to live forever in AI”
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Even if it were possible to scan the contents of your brain and reproduce them in a digital form, there’s no reason that scan would be anything more than bits of data on the digital system. You could have a database of your brain… but it wouldn’t be conscious.
No one has any idea how to replicate the activity of the brain. As far as I know there aren’t any practical proposals in this area. All we have are vague theories about what might be going on, and a limited grasp of neurochemistry. It will be a very long time before reproducing the functions of a conscious mind is anything more than fantasy.
Counterpoint, from a complex systems perspective:
We don’t fully know or are able toodel the details of neurochemistry, but we know some essential features which we can model, action potentials in spiking neuron models for example.
It’s likely that the details don’t actually matter much. Take traffic jams as an example. There is lots of details going on, driver psychology, the physical mechanics of the car etc. but you only need a handful of very rough parameters to reproduce traffic jams in a computer.
That’s the thing with “emergent” phenomena, they are less complicated than the sum of their parts, which means you can achieve the same dynamics using other parts.
Even if you ignore all the neuromodulatory chemistry, much of the interesting processing happens at sub-threshold depolarizations, depending on millisecond-scale coincidence detection from synapses distributed through an enormous, and slow-conducting dendritic network. The simple electrical signal transmission model, where an input neuron causes reliable spiking in an output neuron, comes from skeletal muscle, which served as the model for synaptic transmission for decades, just because it was a lot easier to study than actual inter-neural synapses.
But even that doesn’t matter if we can’t map the inter-neuronal connections, and so far that’s only been done for the 300 neurons of the c elegans ganglia (i.e., not even a ‘real’ brain), after a decade of work. Nowhere close to mapping the neuroscientists’ favorite model, aplysia, which only has 20,000 neurons. Maybe statistics will wash out some of those details by the time you get to humans 10^11 neuron systems, but considering how badly current network models are for predicting even simple behaviors, I’m going to say more details matter than we will discover any time soon.
Thanks fellow traveller for punching holes in computational stupidity. Everything you said is true but I also want to point out that the brain is an analog system so the information in a neuron is infinite relative to a digital system (cf: digitizing analog recordings). As I tell my students if you are looking for a binary event to start modeling, look to individual ions moving across the membrane.
As I tell my students if you are looking for a binary event to start modeling, look to individual ions moving across the membrane.
So it’s not infinite and can be digitized. :)
But to be more serious, digitized analog recordings is a bad analogy because audio can be digitized and perfectly reproduced. Nyquist- Shannon theory means the output can be perfectly reproduced. It’s not approximate. It’s perfect.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist–Shannon_sampling_theorem
It’s an analogy. There is actually an academic joke about the point you are making.
A mathematician and an engineer are sitting at a table drinking when a very beautiful woman walks in and sits down at the bar.
The mathematician sighs. “I’d like to talk to her, but first I have to cover half the distance between where we are and where she is, then half of the distance that remains, then half of that distance, and so on. The series is infinite. There’ll always be some finite distance between us.”
The engineer gets up and starts walking. “Ah, well, I figure I can get close enough for all practical purposes.”
The point of the analogy is not that one can’t get close enough so that the ear can’t detect a difference, it’s that in theory analog carries infinite information. It’s true that vinyl recordings are not perfect analog systems because of physical limitations in the cutting process. It’s also true for magnetic tape etc. But don’t mistake the metaphor for the idea.
Ionic movement across membranes, especially at the scale we are talking about, and the density of channels in the system is much closer to an ideal system. How much of that fidelity can you lose before it’s not your consciousness?
"I’d like to talk to her, but first I have to cover half the distance between where we are and where she is, then half of the distance that remains, then half of that distance, and so on. The series is infinite. "
I get it’s a joke but that’s a bad joke. That’s a convergent series. It’s not infinite. Any 1st year calculus student would know that.
"it’s that in theory analog carries infinite information. "
But in reality it can’t. The universe isn’t continous, it’s discrete. That’s why we have quantum mechanics. It is the math to handle non contiguous transitions between states.
How much of that fidelity can you lose before it’s not your consciousness?
That can be tested with c elegans. You can measure changes until a difference is propagated.
Measure differences in what? We can’t ask *c. elegans * about it’s state of mind let alone consciousness. There are several issues here; a philosophical issue here about what you are modeling (e.g. mind, consciousness or something else), a biological issue with what physical parameters and states you need to capture to produce that model, and how you would propose to test the fidelity of that model against the original organism. The scope of these issues is well outside a reply chain in Lemmy.
Yes the connectome is kind of critical. But other than that, sub threshold oscillations can and are being modeled. It also does not really matter that we are digitizing here. Fluid dynamics are continuous and we can still study, model and predict it using finite lattices.
There are some things that are missing, but very clearly we won’t need to model individual ions and there is lots of other complexity that will not affect the outcome.
I heard a hypothesis that the first human made consciousness will be an AI algorithm designed to monitor and coordinate other AI algorithms which makes a lot of sense to me.
Our consciousness is just the monitoring system of all our bodies subsystems. It is most certainly an emergent phenomenon of the interaction and management of different functions competing or coordinating for resources within the body.
To me it seems very likely that the first human made consciousness will not be designed to be conscious. It also seems likely that we won’t be aware of the first consciousnesses because we won’t be looking for it. Consciousness won’t be the goal of the development that makes it possible.
We don’t even know what consciousness is, let alone if it’s technically “real” (as in physical in any way.) It’s perfectly possible an uploaded brain would be just as conscious as a real brain because there was no physical thing making us conscious, and rather it was just a result of our ability to think at all.
Similarly, I’ve heard people argue a machine couldn’t feel emotions because it doesn’t have the physical parts of the brain that allow that, so it could only ever simulate them. That argument has the same hole in that we don’t actually know that we need those to feel emotions, or if the final result is all that matters. If we replaced the whole “this happens, release this hormone to cause these changes in behavior and physical function” with a simple statement that said “this happened, change behavior and function,” maybe there isn’t really enough of a difference to call one simulated and the other real. Just different ways of achieving the same result.My point is, we treat all these things, consciousness, emotions, etc, like they’re special things that can’t be replicated, but we have no evidence to suggest this. It’s basically the scientific equivalent of mysticism, like the insistence that free will must exist even though all evidence points to the contrary.
Also, some of what happens in the brain is just storytelling. Like, when the doctor hits your patellar tendon, just under your knee, with a reflex hammer. Your knee jerks, but the signals telling it to do that don’t even make it to the brain. Instead the signal gets to your spinal cord and it “instructs” your knee muscles.
But, they’ve studied similar things and have found out that in many cases where the brain isn’t involved in making a decision, the brain does make up a story that explains why you did something, to make it seem like it was a decision, not merely a reaction to stimulus.
let alone if it’s technically “real” (as in physical in any way.)
This right here might already be a flaw in your argument. Something doesn’t need to be physical to be real. In fact, there’s scientific evidence that physical reality itself is an illusion created through observation. That implies (although it cannot prove) that consciousness may be a higher construct that exists outside of physical reality itself.
If you’re interested in the philosophical questions this raises, there’s a great summary article that was published in Nature: https://www.nature.com/articles/436029a
On the contrary, it’s not a flaw in my argument, it is my argument. I’m saying we can’t be sure a machine could not be conscious because we don’t know that our brain is what makes us conscious. Nor do we know where the threshold is where consciousness arises. It’s perfectly possible all we need is to upload an exact copy of our brain into a machine, and it’d be conscious by default.
I see that’s certainly a different way of looking at it :) Of course I can’t say with any authority that it must be wrong, but I think it’s a flaw because it seems you’re presuming that consciousness arises from physical properties. If the physical act of copying a brain’s data were to give rise to consciousness, that would imply consciousness is a product of physical reality. But my position (and that of the paper I linked) is that physical reality is a product of mental consciousness.
It’s not a flaw to not be batshit like you.
Do elaborate on the batshit part :) It’s a scientific fact that physical matter does not exist in its physical form when unobserved. This may not prove the existence of consciousness, but it certainly makes it plausible. It certainly invalidates physical reality as the “source of truth”, so to say. Which makes the explanation that physical reality is a product of consciousness not just plausible, but more likely than the other way around. Again, not a proof, but far from batshit.
I think you’re a little confused about what observed means and what it does.
When unobserved, elementary particles behave like a wave, but they do not stop existing. A wave is still a physical thing. Additionally, observation does not require consciousness. For instance, a building, such as a house, when nobody is looking at it, does not begin to behave like a wave. It’s still a physical building. Therefore, observation is a bit of a misnomer. It really means a complex interaction we don’t understand causes particles to behave like a particle and not a wave. It just happens that human observation is one of the possible ways this interaction can take place.
An unobserved black hole will still feed, an unobserved house is still a house.
To be clear, I’m not insulting you or your idea like the other dude, but I wanted to clear that up.
The problem with this is that even if a machine is conscious, there’s no reason it would be conscious like us. I fully agree that consciousness could take many forms, probably infinite forms - and there’s no reason to expect that one form would be functionally or technically compatible with another.
What does the idea “exact copy of our brain” mean to you? Would it involve emulating the physical structure of a human brain? Would it attempt to abstract the brain’s operations from the physical structure? Would it be a collection of electrical potentials? Simulations of the behavior of specific neurochemicals? What would it be in practice, that would not be hand-wavy fantasy?
I suppose I was overly vague about what I meant by “exact copy.” I mean all of the knowledge, memories, and an exact map of the state of our neurons at the time of upload being uploaded to a computer, and then the functions being simulated from there. Many people believe that even if we could simulate it so perfectly that it matched a human brain’s functions exactly, it still wouldn’t be conscious because it’s still not a real human brain. That’s the point I was arguing against. My argument was that if we could mimic human brain functions closely enough, there’s no reason to believe the brain is so special that a simulation could not achieve consciousness too.
And you’re right, it may not be conscious in the same way. We have no reason to believe either way that it would or wouldn’t be, because the only thing we can actually verify is conscious is ourself. Not humans in general, just you, individually. Therefore, how conscious something is is more of a philosophical debate than a scientific one because we simply cannot test if it’s true. We couldn’t even test if it was conscious at all, and my point wasn’t that it would be, my point is that we have no reason to believe it’s possible or impossible.
Consciousness might not even be “attached” to the brain. We think with our brains but being conscious could be a separate function or even non-local.
I read that and the summary is, “Here are current physical models that don’t explain everything. Therefore, because science doesn’t have an answer it could be magic.”
We know consciousness is attached to the brain because physical changes in the brain cause changes in consciousness. Physical damage can cause complete personality changes. We also have a complete spectrum of observed consciousness from the flatworm with 300 neurons, to the chimpanzee with 28 billion. Chimps have emotions, self reflection and everything but full language. We can step backwards from chimps to simpler animals and it’s a continuous spectrum of consciousness. There isn’t a hard divide, it’s only less. Humans aren’t magical.
I understand your point. But science has also shown us over time that things we thought were magic were actually things we can figure out. Consciousness is definitely up there in that category of us not fully understanding it. So what might seem like magic now, might be well-understood science later.
Not able to provide links at the moment, but there are also examples on the other side of the argument that lead us to think that maybe consciousness isn’t fully tied to physical components. Sure, the brain might interface with senses, consciousness, and other parts to give us the whole experience as a human. But does all of that equate to consciousness? Is the UI of a system the same thing as the user?
And we know the flatworm and chimp don’t have non-local brains because?
I’m just saying, it didn’t seem like anyone was arguing that humans were special, just that consciousness may be non-local. Many quantum processes are, and we still haven’t ruled out the possibility of Quantum phenomena happening in the brain.
Because flatworm neurons can be exactly modeled without adding anything extra.
It’s like if you said, “And we know a falling ball isn’t caused by radiation because?” If you can model a ball dropping in a vacuum without adding any extra variables to your equations, why claim something extra? It doesn’t mean radiation couldn’t affect a falling ball. But adding radiation isn’t needed to explain a falling ball.
The neurons in a flatworm can be modeled without adding quantum effects. So why bother adding in other effects?
And a minor correction, “non local” means faster than light. Quantum effects do not allow faster than light information transfer. Consciousness by definition is information. So even if quantum processes affected neurons macroscopically, there still couldn’t be non local consciousness.
We already have seen “non-local” Quantum Effects though - https://today.ucsd.edu/story/quantum-material-mimics-non-local-brain-function
“that electrical stimuli passed between neighboring electrodes can also affect non-neighboring electrodes. Known as non-locality, this discovery is a crucial milestone”
That’s not quantum non locality. The journalist didn’t know how to interpret the actual data.
"Quantum nonlocality does not allow for faster-than-light communication,[6] "
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_nonlocality
Quantum non locality is like taking two playing cards, sealing them in envelopes, mailing one to your friend across the country and then asking him to open it. You will know faster than light which card is in your envelope. But that doesn’t allow information transfer.
Thank you for this. That was a fantastic survey of some non-materialistic perspectives on consciousness. I have no idea what future research might reveal, but it’s refreshing to see that there are people who are both very interested in the questions and also committed to the scientific method.
I think we’re going to learn how to mimic a transfer of consciousness before we learn how to actually do one. Basically we’ll figure out how to boot up a new brain with all of your memories intact. But that’s not actually a transfer, that’s a clone. How many millions of people will we murder before we find out the Zombie Zuckerberg Corp was lying about it being a transfer?
What’s the difference between the two?
A. You die and a copy exists
B. You move into a new body
Right, how is moving into a new body not dying?
In one scenario you continue. In the other you die but observers think you continue because it’s a copy of you.
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ChatGPT is not conscious, it’s just a probability language model. What it says makes no sense to it and it has no sense of anything. That might change in the future but currently it’s not.
And it doesn’t have any internal state of mind. It can’t “remember” or learn anything from experience. You need to always feed everything into the context or stop and retrain it to incorporate “experiences”. So I’d say that rules out consciousness without further systems extending it.
Also, actual brains arise from desires / needs. Brains got bigger to accommodate planning and predicting.
When a human generates text, the fundamental reason for doing so is to fulfill some desire or need. When an LLM generates text it’s because the program says to generate the next word, then the next, then the next, based on a certain probability of words appearing in a certain order.
If an LLM writes text that appears to be helpful, it’s not doing it out of a desire to be helpful. It’s doing it because it’s been trained on tons of text in which someone was being helpful, and it’s mindlessly mimicking that behaviour.
Isn’t the reward function in reinforcement learning something like a desire it has? I mean training works because we give it some function to minimize/maximize… A goal that it strives for?! Sure it’s a mathematical way of doing it and in no way as complex as the different and sometimes conflicting desires and goals I have as a human… But nonetheless I think I’d consider this as a desire and a reason to do something at all, or machine learning wouldn’t work in the first place.
The reward function for an LLM is about generating a next word that is reasonable. It’s like a road-building robot that’s rewarded for each millimeter of road built, but has no intention to connect cities or anything. It doesn’t understand what cities are. It doesn’t even understand what a road is. It just knows how to incrementally add another millimeter of gravel and asphalt that an outside observer would call a road.
If it happens to connect cities it’s because a lot of the roads it was trained on connect cities. But, if its training data also happens to contain a NASCAR oval, it might end up building a NASCAR oval instead of a road between cities.
That is an interesting analogy. In the real world it’s kinda similar. The construction workers also don’t have a “desire” (so to speak) to connect the cities. It’s just that their boss told them to do so. And it happens to be their job to build roads. Their desire is probably to get through the day and earn a decent living. And further along the chain, not even their boss nor the city engineer necessarily “wants” the road to go in a certain direction.
Talking about large language models instead of simpler forms of machine learning makes it a bit complicated. Since it’s and elaborate trick. Somehow making them want to predict the next token makes them learn a bit of maths and concepts about the world. The “intelligence”, the ability to anwer questions and do something alike “reasoning” emerges in the process.
I’m not that sure. Sure the weights of an ML model in itself don’t have any desire. They’re just numbers. But we have more than that. We give it a prompt, build chatbots and agents around the models. And these are more complex systems with the capability to do something. Like do (simple) customer support or answer questions. And in the end we incentivise them to do their job as we want, albeit in a crude and indirect way.
And maybe this is skipping half of the story and directly jumping to philosophy… But we as humans might be machines, too. And what we call desires is a result from simpler processes that drive us. For example surviving. And wanting to feel pleasure instead of pain. What we do on a daily basis kind of emerges from that and our reasoning capabilities.
It’s kind of difficult to argue. Because everything also happens within a context. The world around us shapes us and at the same time we’re part of bigger dynamics and also shape our world. And large language models or the whole chatbot/agent are pretty simplistic things. They can just do text and images. They don’t have conciousness or the ability to remember/learn/grow with every interaction, as we do. And they do simple, singular tasks (as of now) and aren’t completely embedded in a super complex world.
But I’d say that an LLM answers a question correctly (which it can do) and why it does it due to the way supervised learning works… And the road construction worker building the road towards the other city and how that relates to his basic instincts as a human… Are kind of similar concepts. They’re both results of simpler mechanisms that are also completely unrelated to the goal the whole entity is working towards. (I mean not directly related… I.e. needing money to pay for groceries and paving the road.)
I hope this makes some sense…
That reads like something ChatGPT wrote.
Blip blop beep. I SWEAR I AM A HUMAN BEING MADE OF HUMAN FLESH.
Dumbed down, your brain is also just a probability model.
🥱
The only people with this take are people who don’t understand it. Plus growth and decline is an inherent part of consciousness, unless the computer can be born, change then die in some way it can’t really achieve consciousness.
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From a lecture by Roger Penrose
Wikipedia has an article and he has some videos on YouTube
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrated_objective_reduction
Consciousness and conscience are not the same thing, this naming is horrible
This just makes it more realistic
Hey, just be glad I changed it from asdf_test_3, okay?
If anyone’s interested in a hard sci-fi show about uploading consciousness they should watch the animated series Pantheon. Not only does the technology feel realistic, but the way it’s created and used by big tech companies is uncomfortably real.
The show got kinda screwed over on advertising and fell to obscurity because of streaming service fuck ups and region locking, and I can’t help but wonder if it’s at least partially because of its harsh criticisms of the tech industry.
Just FYI content warning for Pantheon there is a seriously disturbing gore/kill scene that is animated too well in the first season. Anyone who has seen the show knows what scene I am talking about, I found the scene pretty upsetting and I almost didn’t finish the show. I am still a little upset that the scene is burned in my memory.
Sounds good. Did it come to a conclusion or get axed mid way?
The series has a very satisfying conclusion.
It’s one of the coolest fucking things we watched this last year.
Sold!
Unironically the most important question
Luckily the writers were able to finish it the way they wanted with a second season, and it’s fantastic. AMC almost did axe it before the second season released but after it was already finished but fans were able to get them to release it.
Yes, I just finished watching Pantheon and absolutely loved it!
Totally agree that it deserved more attention. At least it got a proper ending with season 2.
Also, the voice acting talent they got was impressive. Paul Dano was fantastic as one of the leads.
I really thought you were going to mention “Upload” on Prime. Same creator as the office.
Checking in to see if this show was mentioned. Highly recommend! Well written
The game SOMA represents this case the best. Highly recommended!
Yes, I immediately thought about SOMA after reading the post. recommendations++
Soma is so fucking bleak and I love it
I already know I will never play this game, could you elaborate for me?
Brain scan tossed in a robot makes 2 Simons
And several times throughout the story you are forced into making some “decisions” about how to deal with stale memory registers.
Did they ever allow for turning off head bob and blur? That game makes me motion sick to an insane degree.
Soma is a wonderful game that covers this type of thing. It does make you wonder what consciousness really is… Maybe the ability to perceive and store information, along with retrieving that information, is enough to provide an illusion of consistent self?
Or maybe it’s some competely strange system, unkown to science. Who knows?
I think the definition of consciousness needs to not be solely about abilities or attributes. It needs to account for the active process of consciousness. Like a hair dryer can burn things… but a fire is things burning. Without the active nature its simply not conscious.
I don’t think anything gave me existential doom quite as much as the ending of that game.
The comic sans makes this even deeper
Who the fuck uses comic sans for programming? I use comic mono.
Seriously, I kinda want to use it for my markdown files.
damn bro
oh god why is it real
At least it’s not Comic Sans IN THE IDE (or vim/emacs for the brave).
Comic sans in vim is peak insanity
What if you do it in a ship of theseus type of way. Like, swapping each part of the brain with an electronic one slowly until there is no brain left.
Wonder if that will work.
If I remember right, the game The Talos Principle calls that the Talos principle
The tv show Pantheon figures it will work, but it will be very disturbing.
Was looking for the Pantheon reference in this thread! Just finished that show and loved it. Of course it takes plenty of liberties for the sake of the storytelling, but still, at least it explores these interesting topics!
Anyone reading this thread, do yourself a favor and check out Pantheon!
Right? Like what if as cells die or degrade instead of being replaced by the body naturally they are replaced by nanites/cybernetics/tech magic. If the process of fully converting took place over the course of 10 years, then I don’t see how the subject would even notice.
It’s an interesting thing to ponder.
A copy is fine. I can still seek vengeance on my enemies from beyond the grave.
It’s definitely an improvement to just being plain old dead
throws UserNotPaidExceptionwould’ve made more sense if it was rust
(or is the copy intential here?)
Plottwist: consciousness is : Copy
It’s pinned and
!Unpin, and only has private constructors.Uploading is a matter of implementing
Clone
#[derive(Clone, Copy)] struct Consciousness {...} fn upload_brain(brain: Consciousness) -> Result<(), Error>If we’re gonna have a dystopian future, then damn it, it’s gonna be memory safe.
The semantics in Rust would be completely out of wack. What does ownership mean?
I guess the point of the joke is that consciousness is a shallow value.
the plot of
spoiler
SOMA
in a nutshell?
Related book recommendation!!
Kil’n People by David Brin - it’s a futuristic Murder Mystery Novel about a society where people copy their consciousnesses to temporary clay clones to do mundane tasks for them. Got some really interesting discussions about what constitutes personhood!
Some of the concepts in this book really stuck with me, but I had no idea what the title was! Thanks!
“Some days you’re the original, some days you’re the copy” or something like that
There’s a cool computer game that makes this point as part of the story line… I’d recommend it, but I can’t recommend it in this context without it being a spoiler!
Guys probably talking about
Tap for spoiler
SOMA
Lost the coin flip.
There’s also a book with a similar concept. It’s not the focus until later in the book though. It’s called
Tap for spoiler
Ready Player Two
I’ve had this thought and felt it was so profound I should write a short story about it. Now I see this meme and I feel dumb.
I saw a great comic about it once, one sec
Edit: more focused on teleportation, but a lot of the same idea. Here https://existentialcomics.com/comic/1
This could’ve sent me into an existential crisis if I hadn’t already had several where I thought the exact same things ;)
I will say, the point about murdering the person other people have in their minds of you is certainly an interesting one.
That’s why I’m going for brain in a jar.
