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saw someone say maybe another trump win is good because it will mobilize the left a little more
threw up in my mouth a bit through the tears
The trolls ive spoken to here are afraid of leftist solidarity. They claim they want change, but whine and cry the second you call for all roads for change to be taken. Mutual aid, direct action, and voting are praxis. We will have an impossible time trying to get any of those first 2 done under dumbass.
As someone on the far end of the left spectrum, any and all leftward movement must be embraced at all opportunities. How am i to convince anyone to work together with me, if I shit on their methods? All must be embraced. Some will be more effective, some less, but thats how we make connections.
Its about time this country learned what solidarity is.
Very well spoken. Even if the progress is minor, it’s helping some people, and that’s important. Obamacare was not the ultimate, perfect healthcare fix, but it did give a whole lot of people affordable healthcare where they didn’t previously. It was a cause worth supporting for that reason. And as someone who had to rely on it for a time, I greatly appreciate it.
If we’ve made someone’s life better or easier, we’ve succeeded. That to me is practical leftism. We help as many as we can as much as we can. Since we aren’t in unilateral power, that means we have to compromise. And working with colleagues will be more successful than being combative. The lone socialist in the Virginia House was able to get a lot done that way.
Thats a part of practical leftism indeed! Did the legalize end even the legal persecution of LGBTQ folks? Not entirely, look at the south. But it did( force a cultural shift. Suddenly it wasnt so cool to use gay as an insult and shit on queer ppl who looked/dressed/sounded a certain way.
The LGBTQ ppl in my life have been afforded the ability to step out of the closet with less fear than before. If im to march with them, this imperfect solution is working towards my ends as well.
Solidarity, comrade, regardless where ur politics are. I want liberation even for the righty whities that profess to hate us.
I really hope the majority of leftists are like you. I’m slightly more right, as a progressive, but I hope the more combative leftists I see online are just the loud minority.
You seem like someone that I could have a fun debate with over a beer about where we differ, and you have my respect.
Thanks dude.
The combative ones seem like trolls to me. I left a comment elsewhere outlining it, but leftist spaces on reddit were once open minded and places for critical thinking, not circle jerking. Our wing is being coopted ths way the right was in 2016. Only reason i speak to the trolls is so for everyone else to see.
Lol are you really going for this “notlikeotherleftists” persona? Buddy there’s already a name for that. It’s “liberal”. You’re talking like one, acting like one and voting like one.
Never said any of that. In fact, given the fact that theres groups like the Spanish anarchists who participate in govt, what im going for is exactlyliketheotherleftists. Except u know, the actual ones who understand that building bridges is how u make anything happen.
I like to point to one of the most successful Socialist parties that ever existing in the USA: The Socialist Party of Milwaukee. They got 3 mayors elected and effected actual change.
Part of the Socialist Party’s lasting success in Milwaukee can also be attributed to their pragmatism, Gousha says. Daniel Hoan made a point to exist within a capitalist free market system, they were fiscally conservative, and they worked with other parties to accomplish their goals.
Their pragmatism drew criticism from other socialists around the country, who called Milwaukeeans “sewer socialists” for not being revolutionary enough, according to Gousha.
"As Gene Zeidler said, 'The socialists of Milwaukee took that as a badge of honor. And they said, well you may think we need to be more revolutionary but you could not be elected dog catcher and we’re winning elections,’ " Gousha notes.
Specifically Voting is the starting shot from which all other actions flow in an election cycle
Doing all the other parts is basically just aesthetic shopping if you won’t do the part that changes material conditions at the macro level
I… understand.
This is what i mean by solidarity, amigo.
I disagree, on a fundamental level, that is. Voting is, as far as im concerned, the least you can do…
Still doing it. Ill still discuss with u voting options and effecting change via the electoral method. I vote in any and all elections in which i am eligible. Right now, i dont give two shits about convincing u about direct action being more effective. If i waste my time on that, that takes time from both of us in which we could be doing something productive (like discussing with those who are more likely to be swayed why direct action is important). Much more productive use of my time with u would be discussing which candidates are most likely to make material conditions better for us all.
And above all of that, you are (more than likely, anyway) a working class comrade who is exploited for their surplus value the same way i am. Why would i want to get on ur bad side? I want change, and ur preferred method is proven, clearly. Its best for us all to foster good relationships with one another. Then, you have another reliable voter in me, and i can rest assured that by working together (in say, going after the less reliable voters) u and I are pushing our communities in the correct (read: left) direction.
I say again, solidarity, amigo!
That’s what I meant by starting shot, it’s the least you can do.
Aesthetic shopping at every other step without doing the first part is bailing water out of a ship without plugging the hole first, like yeah you can absolutely keep the water out but more is gonna keep coming in without doing that first step to try and stem the problem from getting even worse.
I just resent the people who skip the first step especially right now because to me it seems less like they’re even interested in bailing the water out and more like they’re interested in looking grammable while doing a shit job at bailing water out, which hilariously I see a lot of them projectingly accuse moderates of doing whenever there’s an argument about who gets to show up to pride.
IMO admittance to the marches and mutual aid events and conferences and stuff should be predicted on proving you voted, something like a BPT verification pic, something that is recognizably you, a date the pic was taken on, and the most recent “I voted sticker” for the place you voted in. Probably won’t get all the slacktivists but it’ll definitely filter out the karens who think demanding to speak to the party’s manager is ultra based praxis! XD
Solidarity l’enton sadi’i!
Haha!
Youve a way with words. Those first two paragraphs id love to stamp in highly visible public spaces, esp the second! Thats exactly how it feels, and then these numbskulls insist if u suggest voting ur a “lib,” as if the society i advocate hardest for isnt cashless, classless, stateless.
That last paragraph tho… i dont like the idea of holding any purity tests to begin with, but i do understand the sentiment. As ive seen some others on here say, if ur over here crying about ppl voting, chances are ur not going to be the one going out and actually participating in direct action, or esp mutual aid, in the first place.
l’enton sadi’i
Forgive my ignorance, but what language would this be, what does it translate to?
Shami dialect Arabic, it means “solidarity to you my friend!”
In MSA it’d have been written l’entum sadiqi.
Majority of People: I want a pony.
Candidate 1: I’m going to kill all the ponies.
Candidate 2: I won’t do that, and will try to make ponies more affordable (because price-fixing the cost of ponies is not within my constitutional powers)
Leftist: “But that’s not good enough! I want a free pony. And a blowjob. I’m voting 3rd party 😤”
Do keep in mind these aggressive purist Gatekeeping / no true Scot leftists are very often just right-wing astroturfers. It hits two birds with one stone: they make leftism obnoxious, they often muddy the waters of violence, and wedge-drive the Democratic coalition to get Trump elected.
Either that or they’re very young and naive.
Don’t fall for it. You’ll see more of this the closer the election gets.
Oh, I’m not fooled (for the most part, anyway). I’m just giving the benefit of doubt and calling them out using their own arguments and trying to not make any assumptions or accusations.
The problem is they don’t often argue in good faith. Usually deflection and gish-gallop are their MO. So be concise and be mindful of the bystander audience.
Oh, for sure. I never argue to change their minds, just to shut down whatever narrative they’re trying to spin for the bystander audience. I’ll usually play along with the gish-galloping as long as time allows but usually stop when they transition into sealioning.
bUt HeR eMAiLz!!!
wait . . . is that? . . no, yeah that’s right.
GOP Jesus approves.
Spot fucking on, but its that second group, the young and naive that make these points worth arguing and harping on about. Sometimes those of us whove been online our whole lives forget the indoctrinating power of the internet. Shit, thats what pushed me further and further left, and still does to this day.
And ur last sentence… oof… i know… brace yourselves, and kick up the counterefforts.
Great point - I don’t mean to disparage those newcomers to politics. We’ve all been there of course.
I guess I gate-kept a bit there myself, and my apologies for that.
No no no! I didn’t take it that way at all, just wanted to add the clarification i figured u left out.
I figured if u were gatekeeping against youth u wouldnt have even bothered to comment at all. Sorry if i sounded like i was putting down ur point for it, u were saying something i think we all could hear more on this platform. Esp as the tankies pretend that the presence of bad faith actors on lemmy trying to hand the election to sr. Racismo via non-voting/third party voting is not existent.
Comments like this give me hope friend. Keep fighting the good fight :)
I feel like i dispense a lot of thank yous and encouragement to everyone else to keep it up. It feels nice to be on the receiving end so randomly. Thanks dude. Made me smile, for real <3
Aight im back to say, im rereading this thread and some of ur other comments above (about astroturfing leading the young esp) go so hard.
So me fight the good fight? You, you sir keep fighting the good fight. As in the present tense. As in u have been. Dont stop.
Solidarity to u and all other leftist speakers and activists seeking change by whichever means they know how…
Just leave some in the bank for when election season is upon us…
Aw thanks and likewise — comments like yours really help to shatter all the depression and gaslighting that gets spread and restores some semblance of sanity :)
And don’t worry about losing steam! I’m amped up for the election year and will only continue to ramp it up! I have frankly too many ideas to enhance my personal impact on the election and need to get better organized lol.
the tankies pretend that the presence of bad faith actors on lemmy trying to hand the election to sr. Racismo via non-voting/third party voting is not existent.
if it existed, why haven’t you ever produced any evidence of it?
Bc im not wasting my time on yall. Im not going to participate in what will either turn into a gush gallop or gaslighting. Uve got it in this thread. U got it all over hexbear and .ml.
Thanks for caring enough to follow tho 🥰
a claim made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, and no one should believe your claims unless you support them.
It’s a few of the astroturfers leading a bunch of the young and naive.
Fucking. Preach.
i don’t believe you can prove anyone (not everyone, just one person) who doesn’t think biden is good enough is either right wing or “young and naive”
No but I can prove they’re short-sighted; and those two things go hand-in-hand. In my experience I’ve frankly yet to see someone older than like 22-years-old espouse such self-defeating beliefs and goals.
I can also prove that right-wing extremists engage in political astroturfing routinely and that according to investigative reporting these far-right groups intend to muddy the waters.
Taken from there, it takes very little ink (inductive reasoning) to connect the dots.
can prove they’re short-sighted;
how? what methodology is available to you to prove such an accusation?
EDIT: Observe the user below spamming multiple replies to the same comment. This is part of the gaslighting gish-gallop tactic I’ve noted. There is a user here I suspect of having many alt accounts and who frequently does this. I encourage you to report them for spam.
what methodology is available to you to prove such an accusation?
If I may, a thing called logic.
- If your goal is to minimize genocide, both in Palestine and Ukraine.
- If your goal is to ensure that we don’t fall further into fascism.
- If the choices on the ballot in November are a constant, regardless of anything else that happens.
- If you understand the nature of entropy in that maintaining let alone building-upon a trillion-piece puzzle is exceedingly more taxing than smashing it.
- If other guy is significantly-worse for Ukrainians, Palestinians, US, and the World.
- If you understand the mathematical trend of FPTP and the Spoiler Effect.
… Then one understands the logical choice is voting for Biden and doing anything else from not voting, voting Republican, voting 3rd-party, writing-in – is utterly self-defeating and short-sighted to the aforementioned goals.
If you don’t understand these things, then yes, one might have built their ardent beliefs atop a house of cards.
👏👏👏
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No, but voting for Trump or helping him win by hiding behind a 3rd party candidate will advance fascism guaranteed. But please, continue astroturfing this thread with your repeating, broken argument.
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Taken from there, it takes very little ink (inductive reasoning) to connect the dots.
this isn’t proof. it’s innuendo.
$5 say the “They should earn my vote” line is a favorite of right wing and Russian trolls a la 2018’s #WalkAway movement.
3rd party: “I can make big promises willy nilly because there is zero chance I’ll win and therefore won’t be held accountable”
Candidate 1: I will keep giving guns to the people killing ponies but I will feel bad about it and criticize them sometimes
Candidate 2: I will give the guns and not feel bad.
Leftist: hey can anyone just, you know, not help people kill ponies?
Centrist: omg I can’t believe you’re asking for so much from your candidates. Your ideological purity is the real enemy here. I bet you don’t even care about ponies
It’s called nuance and seeing the big picture, sweetie.
Haha yeah a very nuanced and realistic portrayal of leftists. Obviously we just want free ponies and blowjobs. Preventing geno-what? Never heard of it
Edit. Star Trek profile pic? Remember when the federation gave weapons and aid to the dominion because it was politically convenient and the cardassians are worse anyway? No neither do I.
Haha yeah a very nuanced and realistic portrayal of leftists. Obviously we just want free ponies and blowjobs. Preventing geno-what? Never heard of it
Edit. Star Trek profile pic? Remember when the federation gave weapons and aid to the dominion because it was politically convenient and the cardassians are worse anyway? No neither do I.
For a second there, I was willing to accept you might be arguing in good faith, but the personal attack you felt the need to tack on destroyed that benefit of doubt and my willingness to continue in debate.
I am arguing in good faith, obviously. There was no personal attack. I’m sure you draw some distinction between pure morals (as in trek) and “real life” but I genuinely do not see how this is defensible. I’m sure you’re a nice person
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Mmmm, I absolutely love that centrist condescension, “sweetie”.
Candidate 2: I’m going to give guns and money to the person killing ponies but tell them they shouldn’t do it.
Leftist: Either way ponies are going to be killed. Let’s try something different.
Centrist: Noooo, you have to vote for the proxy pony killer who can’t use his position to do anything or else you’ll get a pony killer in power who’ll use his position to do everything.
Acting like Candidate 1 won’t do the same and worse
Acting like candidate 2 is at all a good option either.
Would you rather get stabbed in the finger or stabbed in the eye?
I’d rather stab the person trying to stab me anywhere.
You’re getting stabbed whatever happens.
Would you rather get stabbed in the finger or stabbed in the eye?
Neither.
There is always other options, you just have to take them.
The third option is to reject the United States and replace it with something that isn’t an oligarchy
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You said it so perfectly and I never realized it. “If you elect our guy, he won’t be able to do anything, but at least it’s better than if you elect the other guy. If you elect the other guy, somehow he’ll be able to do everything he wants. But vote for our impotent guy instead. It’s safe!”
Um what?
One follows the rules, and the other often doesn’t even think there are rules. The difference there isn’t hard to suss out. It’s like that joke about playing chess with a pigeon.
I want a guy who doesn’t think there are rules, and will protect ponies. Why isn’t that a possibility
Because not thinking there are rules into adulthood is a pretty self-absorbed trait, which usually doesn’t go along with things like empathy and compassion.
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The leftist in this comment also makes sure to plug their ears nice and good if u tell them that the first candidate is financed by foreign powers literally hostile to anything u hold dear, a situation beyond unprecedented.
Voting is the least u can do politically, but it is still praxis, and absolutely necessary given the circumstances.
free pony and blowjob
Avasarala for president!
Real strange way to make a point
Already had a tankie tell me they’re voting 3rd party.
Putin thanks them while Ukrainians and Palestinians weep.
“Anyone who disagrees with me is a tankie.” The left loves their cringe labels as much as the extreme right. Tankies, fascists, nazis, demon rats, librules, alt right, control left, it’s all the same nonsense. You morons deserve each other.
I’ll take strawman for 500, Alex.
… Or, you know, they just told me they were, ya genius.
don’t lie
This is going to happen every election for the foreseeable future. Trump is not a illness he’s a symptom. Eventually a right winger is going to win because we’re stuck voting for a party that often ignores their constituents for business interests. That’s how we got Trump in the first place and the DNC learned nothing.
All the while we could vote third party like in most healthy democracies but we can’t because neither of the major parties want a third party and voters are to cowardly to vote 3rd party because “they won’t win anyway” even when they actually represent what they want in a on policy. See Nader and Bernie
Fact is neither Democrat or Republican is going to attempt to change s system that actively benefits them, especially in the higher positions of authority. The fact that voting 3rd party is considered throwing away your vote should be more embarrassing to Americans as a whole.
It’s not “considered” throwing your vote away. Under a FPTP voting system, it is throwing your vote away. Nobody who tells you that says it gleefully like we just love that we and you can’t vote third party effectively. It’s just the mathematical reality of our voting system and it has to be changed before voting third party becomes an option that is anything but symbolic and self-defeating.
The DNC is not the ephemereal vague boogeyman the left tries to make it out to be. It’s an organization focused on winning elections and accomplishing policies for the Democratic constituency. You are making the mistake of hating the player instead of the game.
If third party votes are important to you, join a local political group focused on expanding another voting choice method like Ranked Choice or STAR voting. You’re already on the easier half of the ideological spectrum to wage this fight from, since most sponsors of alternatives are from democratic groups.
The players decide the game rules.
Tell me which democrats before Trump’s term was “ignoring their constituents for business interests” - show your work, please. Because you sound like a bipartisan moron.
If you can’t understand how bad trump was and will be, you’re fucking retarded. I agree that trump is a symptom but the disease is dumbasses that value social issues like abolishing trans rights and wanting to restore the ability to say the “hard R” without getting fired.
Biden (or his cabinet, whatever) has done so much good for this country that it fills me with a white hot rage that there’s still so much opposition to what is essentially the best presidency we’ve had in decades. You know what? I think you’re part of the problem. I think you don’t know the first thing when it comes to policies, legislation, bills, laws, economic incentives, budgets, etc. I think you think you’re just “looking at both sides, man”.
Sorry if that’s a bit harsh but you guys speak so confidently about issues you know nothing about. I’ll try to make it easier: if you’re a Democrat, vote Biden. If you’re not a Republican, vote Biden. If you don’t like Biden but hate Trump, then vote Biden. If you’re unsure (then you shouldn’t be allowed to have kids, honestly) vote Biden and thank me later. If you’re a Trump supporter I’ll pray for you but vote Trump. If you’re a Republican and don’t like Trump, I’m so sorry.
I get the feeling that a lot of these people think that somehow withholding their vote to punish Biden is some kind of ultimate punishment and it allows them to feel superior without having to do anything else to actually contribute.
Its tactical. The right is in distress bc theyre so damn unpopular and their base is shrinking while the left is growing. So, for our enemies, its time to turn us against each other and convince us “voting bad.” Bc low turn out is the only way they win. And they say, “but itll keep happening,” except, it wont. Bc theyre in distress. Bc theres less and less boomers to vote for shit. So now, on the eve of tides turning, “wah! Itll always be this way! Give up, dont vote! The right will eventually win!”
Yeah. Tell people that voting for Biden is a vote for the removal of MAGA from politics.
I have yet to hear a convincing argument for why someone who says they won’t vote for Biden shouldn’t be actively voting for Trump.
They’re the same thing… Like, on every level.
Nah the shit im seeing is more thay theyre the same thing so either dont vote bc fuck the system (and get full blown dictatorship, which the amerikiddies have never actually felt or heard first hand about to distinguish from authoritarian-lite biden) or dont vote/vote third party to push biden and the democrats left (which wont work in trump’s murica where the slightest political deviation will be criminalized). Or they want fascism to speed along the revolution they claim to want. Bc thats going great in russia -___-
Don’t get so shocked when someone points out that the Washington establishment shares a lot of common values. I think we all know that intuitively, and yet here you are cussing people out because they pointed it out yet again.
You want some issues that show how Obama failed, how Biden has failed? Okay. Campaign finance reform, housing, strict anti-monopoly legislation, stopping wars.
The biggest thing in your rant that you got totally wrong is that you talked about both sides as if there are only two sides. In reality everyone has their own agenda, but if you get stuck in that trap where you think there’s only two people that you could possibly support it’s easy to forget that neither of them cares about most of the things that you hold dear.
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I would say that the DNC learned that they can keep doing what they are doing and it will be okay. If they’re lucky, they get Obama. If they’re unlucky, they get Trump, and it’s easier to drum up support for Biden.
He’s both a symptom and an illness.
I think people who are young enough to not remember the world before Obama don’t realize this is so so so so so far from the norm that we don’t have any clue what’s going to happen.
Biden would have been a decent GOP candidate in the 90s. It’d have sucked to see him elected but it would have been a few years of uncomfortable conservative stuff. Where people argue about how much power we want to give to corporations or whatever… But now it’s so far past that…
The foreseeable future looks like the rightwingers are outnumbered. Keep democracy alive, and you will live to see very different candidates running than the dinosaurs your used to. Theres more than a couple reasons why the 2 front runners are do old.
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If Trump wins he’ll continue to support genocide even harder in Gaza since he’s a Christian death cultist
Yeah, that’s the crazy part. I get the voting undecided or whatever your state’s equivalent is in order to send a message to Biden that he needs to change his policies (I’ll be doing this as well when it’s my state’s turn). However, Trump and the right are very openly pro Israel and if anything support Israel even more.
Not to mention that if Trump is back in power he’ll also be supporting the genocide in Ukraine.
And russia has repeatedly said Ukraine is a stepping stone in the “denazification” of Eastern Europe.
But do go on about how “both parties are the same.” If you don’t vote for Biden you’ll likely never be able to cast a vote again.
this hyperbole only serves to reinforce this hard line between american liberals and leftists; consider reevaluating what is influencing your thought process.
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That “plan” literally changes every year and there have been presidents more closely related to evangelical and supremacist groups in the past and the plan continues to update each year.
Ask yourself how did you come to know if it’s existence? Was it social media? Did they want you to know about it? We’re you likewise engaged about it whatever it was called back in 2004?
It’s not at all hyperbole. Survivors of the holocaust during Trump’s first term specifically brought up how eerie and terrifying was the similarity with what they lived through during the early years, in the long run-up to the full Nazi takeover.
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You know a socialist came within like 20 feet of the Democratic nomination in 2016 and probably would have won the general, right
A lot of people trying to organize to improve their situation in much harder conditions would call you a coward and quitter for just throwing your hands up in this absolutely abject surrender. You’re still free, you can speak your mind on Lemmy, you can vote or organize. That’s already like 5 big steps up. Just whining about it like “boo hoo all the neoliberals in power won’t just hand it over to me even though I asked them to” is some fuckin weak sauce.
I actually don’t agree that Biden’s economic policies are of a piece with all the neoliberal Democratic-party bullshit that’s been on offer ever since Reagan took down Jimmy Carter’s solar panels. But that’s neither here nor there; the main point is your rampant defeatism is a bunch of conveniently-means-I-don’t-have-to-do-anything crap.
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Did you ever stop to wonder why it’s up to leftists and liberals to come together to stop it instead of the checks and balances that our system is supposed to have?
Who made you agree that it’s up to the leftists where the checks and balances are supposed to do the job?
We got here by voting for the lesser evil every single time and we’ll be here again unless everyone begins to ask themselves questions like this.
If Biden loses, that’s his and the DNC’s loss. It’s up to them to field a candidate that people want to vote for. It’s not up to the voters to go along with whatever the DNC feels like they want. I will be voting Biden because it’s too important. If he loses, I will blame him for running, not the voters. The polling was clear, undeclared Democrat polled much higher than Biden, but for some reason he has main character complex and thought he was the only one that could beat Trump when in reality he might be the only person that can lose to Trump.
it sounds like we’re in exact alignment with each other on this topic and i’m wondering what your response is to the inevitable finger pointing at leftist from liberals after the election.
also: i’d like to hear your thoughts on the group think talking point that a protest vote against biden is a vote for trump.
it sounds like we’re in exact alignment with each other on this topic and i’m wondering what your response is to the inevitable finger pointing at leftist from liberals after the election.
That’s what I’ve been talking about in this thread. It’s up to the party to look inward and realize why they failed and field a better candidate. If they want to point to the finger else where they’re just going to pick more losing candidates.
i’d like to hear your thoughts on the group think talking point that a protest vote against biden is a vote for trump.
It’s a cop out. You vote for things. If you vote for say a third party then it’s exactly that, you voted for a third party you didn’t vote for Trump. It’s up to the party to win your votes.
Please, for the love of god, be good enough to vote for.
Sorry best we can do is give you someone bad enough to vote against.
“People get the government they deserve”
Leftists who won’t vote are saying:
“Making a political statement is worth not only having Trump for president for the next four years, but living under a Trump for the rest of my life or fighting another world war to escape it.”
“I’m so mad at the current president for doing genocide that I’m going to stand down and tacitly support his other opponent to do genocide instead.”
Nah this is backwards, Democrat voters need to get behind the left. If the left aligns with Democrats we continue to ratchet to the right. If everyone did what the left wants there is a way out. Either get behind the left or support the right either directly or indirectly, that’s the choice right now.
Democrats try to shame the left into supporting them, blame them for the failure, then call you a fascist because you didn’t vote for one. Fuck that, Democrats don’t have the high horse to say that from anymore except to each other. Democrats who support the left can do it by voting that way, otherwise they’re enabling the current system just as much as Trump supporters. The conditions that give us Trump don’t go away without a socialist project.
Democrat voters need to get behind the left
Any strategy that requires millions of dumb people to make wise decisions is simply not going to happen.
I see things this way
There is a small number of good people driven to make the world a better place, e.g. me and you and many of us on Lemmy
There is a tiny number of really bad people (e.g. psychopaths), these are your right wing leaders (gov’t, church, etc) and very rich people
There is a small number of people willing to kill others for a paycheck because they were ordered to do so (military, police, intelligence) or are sadists
A larger number of people that are mostly goodish but not wise and not motivated to improve anything for others – they just do their thing
About 35% dumb people that would not care one whit about politics – This is the main group where the future will be made
These numbers are pulled from my ass but get my point across.
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The good people are already trying, but so many are convinced by propaganda from foreign dictators (somehow they clearly see American propaganda and are totally blind to that coming from dictators that claim to be communists) that the way to make things better is to kill a bunch of people and force everyone else to labor under the dictators instruction. We’ve seen the damage this can do before to society and to the environment.
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The bad people are not going to turn good, they are the enemy.
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The enforcement class will be an enemy as long as they are paid, remove the money and we just need to watch out for unorganized assholes and sadists
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The goodish people can only be prodded to vote better, that is of limited utility in making the world better, but it can hold off fascism for a time (I want to be clear, our current situation is bad, fascism is much worse, much much worse).
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It’s the dumb people – the normal situation is they are not very powerful or organized. What’s changed in recent years is that this group has been activated – they’ve been turned into an idiot army serving the tiny number of very bad people. ( I think Steve Bannon and Roger Stone were key here)
This means, they way to get out of our quagmire is to deactivate the idiot army, and they use leftist tactics to push things in the right direction outside of electoral politics.
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Meanwhile back in reality Trump was the first President in decades to not start a new war. The left keeps promoting the idea that Trump will be so much worse than Biden because he’ll do the things Biden is already doing. Trump was a great President and he should win again. The left made these same claims the first time with Trump and none of it materialized except in the deranged fevered nightmares of the left. I can still remember the media saying Trump can’t be trusted with the nuclear codes and he was going to start WW3 with Russia. The left projects their own desires onto their opponents then carries them out under the cover of the Jewish media.
Trump assassinated an Iranian general in a third country. Fuck off with this “didn’t start a war” shit. The only reason there wasn’t a war is they didn’t push back.
His dipshit son in law tried to weaponize COVID against blue states because he was too dumb to realize that infectious diseases don’t care about political affiliation.
Then he had his supporters try to overthrow a free and fair election.
Trump should die in prison. The sooner the better.
He did so because said general had attacked US assets in Iraq if I remember right. They couldn’t push back because no country can challenge the US.
No clue what you’re talking about with COVID. Blue states certainly screwed over their children though all on their own. Most leftists have embraced having children as a bad thing though so they don’t really care.
No one tried to overthrow an election. Also there is no free and fair election happening in the US or we wouldn’t see Biden vs Trump. It’s laughable when people try to say the election isn’t rigged so choose your favorite senile geriatric selected by the powers that be. I’m sure this is who the people wanted to choose between and it has nothing to do with scam political parties and billionaire controlled media.
The mysteries of your brain would make a fascinating documentary.
It’s not that they are ok with Trump. They are just unhappy with both candidates. With that being said I do plan on voting for the Biden because while I don’t agree with him on everything I know that he won’t turn the country into a fascist dictatorship like Trump. The fact that this asshole is still legally allowed to run is insane.
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Whether you blame Biden and the DNC, or the “left” voters for not voting hard enough; if Trump wins, it won’t matter. Get over yourself and try to build allies instead of destroying support.
this should be the biggest takeaway from this election cycle and it saddens me to see that american liberals drink as much coolaid as maga and that they’re become more prevalent in the fediverse.
Why would this surprise you? Democrats are center right politically, they’re just as happy to flirt with authoritarianism when it suits them.
Anarchists hate tankies. Tankies hate liberals. Liberals hate anarchists. Meanwhile, Trump, fascism, and Project 2025 is on the horizon. Reach across the divide. When the fascists come for you, are you really gonna ask if the people willing to fight with you are Leninists, Trotskyist, or social Democrats?
We can criticize ideals, but at the end of the day, we’re all fighting fascism.
This is the same common wisdom that says liberals and socialist can’t get along; but there’s plenty to say otherwise.
My desire is to not enable fascim from any direction; both conservative and liberal varieties alike.
Another non-voting/third party stan cosplaying as a leftist.
If im to take ur comic in good faith, ill make like the Spanish anarchists and still participate in the god awful system that we’re all apart of either way to reduce the harm it does to me or my comrades. Surely you will recognize that as praxis.
What does hate achieve?
Men build too many walls and not enough bridges.
Joseph Fort Newton
I like this one! In your honor, and i suppose JF Newton’s, ill paste what i wrote elsewhere as i see it as pertinent.
Youve offered no concrete ways forward, however, so Ill say for the millionth time the same: pursue direct action in any means by which u are able, establish systems of mutual aid (preferably very local), vote bc its the least u can do and your wellbeing does depend on it, and make friends and spread these ideas anywhere and everywhere. The future is ours, but we shouldnt sit here arguing against ppl encouraging any single one of those avenues. Theyre all necessary. Everyone does a little, some do a lot. “From each according to his ability,” and what not.
Weve argued time and time again. If u are a good faith actor, there is nothing here that u should disagree with. All avenues must be taken, none should be disparaged. Everyone does what they can, but some do a little more. Those that do more get honor and respect from the rest, as is deserved, but the rest get neither honor, nor dishonor, but they still receive respect as ur comrades.
Please vote. I don’t live in the US but this election is likely to impact the safety of my family.
Brav-fucking-O. 100% this. I get comments removed for saying exactly this in other communities, but it’s 100% accurate from what I see.
Liberals: “We don’t need your votes anyway.” Also “Liberals please vote, don’t protest and don’t criticize Joe Biden or you’re helping Trump”
Liberals: “We don’t need your votes anyway.”
Find an example of any liberal saying this. Because to me at least, it seems like Democrats and the left are trying to get every vote they can because everyone expects this to be a close election which Trump is arguably winning right now.
I’ll criticize the geratarian, but I’ll vote for him still. Better a genocide supporter than a fascist US. 4 years from now at least I’ll have another option.
" Better a genocide supporter than a fascist US." These are interchangeable.
I’m childish enough that I’m irritated at my comment here being removed. Here’s the comment, which also applies to this meme:
You know that weak support for Hindenburg’s party was what let Hitler come to power, right?
Not that I agree that Biden is a lesser evil, but even within those parameters, there’s an absolutely glaring flaw in bringing up Nazi Germany while making the case that voting for the lesser evil is a bad idea
And when he asked for clarification:
My point is that the holocaust that gave rise to Niemöller’s quote in the first place happened because of weakened resistance from the SPD (the establishment left), which wasn’t getting support from the far-left of its day because it wasn’t left enough. When as a result the fascist party gained control, it put all the far-left people in camps, outlawed the SPD, and began killing people by the millions. Which in retrospect made the complaint that the establishment left wasn’t left enough to support, even against literal Hitler, seem short sighted.
Mod banned me. 🙂
I got banned from World News (apparently the .ml instance) for calling out russian talking points being used for this end.
Its not just calls for not voting, either. The other they love to stan is voting third party and pretending the spoiler effect doesnt exist.
A lot of the lemmy.ml subs are very explicitly one-viewpoint subs; the mods will take out comments which advance arguments they don’t like. It is a reason I don’t bother with them much.
I mean, it makes sense; the administrators argue for explicitly totalitarian states like Russia or China, so it makes sense they’d use the same sort of approach to discourse under their own purview. I am curious what their viewpoint would be if their local government showed up at their door and started treating them like Russia or China treat their social media; I think there’s a certain pick-me viewpoint like “obviously I would be one of the good and loyal ones and they’d leave me alone,” but I don’t think that is how it would work out.
Preach, comrade, preach.
All this gives actual leftist thought a bad name.
I want a fucking classless, cashless, stateless society. You cant get further away from that than china and russia, and u will certainly get further away if the man in the oval office works for one of the two.
Like it or not, neoliberal politics arent just going to go away worldwide, and being ignorant of the geopolitical consequences of our elections doesnt mean that ur somehow a magical snowflake that enilightened everyone by “not endorsing” a candidate by refusing to fill in a box next the name thats not trying to sell the country youre a part of, whether u like it or not, away.
Support for the SPD waned because they were pushing to the right to court right wing voters. Sort of like how the sitting US president has been on TV using right wing terminology and how the sitting Democratic mayor in NYC brought back stop and frisk.
Ah yes. Its the leftists fault that Biden is running his campaign and his presidency in such a way as to cause people to not want to vote for him.
What do you believe in? What would you vote for? Is it to federally place abortion bans, or to place laws that will restrict freedoms for LGBTQ? To have a president who will arrest and remove all opposition, stack court judges and Congress with people who will only approve what they want whether the majority of the population wants that or not stripping all vestige of it being a Republic, democracy or anything salvageable?
Either you don’t want those things and vote for someone who has a chance at beating Trump, or you support those things and are voting for them. Not voting IS a vote.
Your acting like it’s my vote that’s on the line as if I’m the one you have to convince. Bro, criticizing Joe Biden doesn’t mean I’m not going to vote for him; in fact, criticism and forcing him to respond to the fact that no one in his party likes his Gaza policies is the only thing keeping him viable.
Stop being a fucking cheerleader. You are making him less likely to win with your brow beating approach to rhetoric. The fact is the Democrats simply fucking suck at governing and have frankly don’t jack shit for their voters since before Obama. You have to address that in your rhetoric as to why one should support Biden. If you can’t convince people to get off the couch, you lose. And your dip shit approach about the other side isn’t working. It needs to be about why Biden is better or you’ve failed, so fucking figure it the fuck out. His polling is in the tank. The only thing we can really do is ramp up the criticism and force Joe Biden to be a better candidate, because if left to his own devices, he’s already lost.
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