President Biden told a Democratic lawmaker and members of his Cabinet after the State of the Union address that he told Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that they will need to have a “come-to-Jesus meeting.”
Biden’s comments, captured on a hot mic as he spoke with Sen. Michael Bennet (D-Colo.) on the floor of the House chamber, came after Bennet congratulated the commander in chief on his speech and pressed him to keep pressure on Netanyahu over increasing humanitarian issues in Gaza.
Just overall a very funny comment in regards to Israel.
I greatly enjoy that Biden is this way.
When he was campaigning, he was in an interview about Turkey, and he said more or less if Erdoğan gets out of line we might have to get rid of him. Then he realized what he said wasn’t a “say out loud” type of statement, and tried to walk it back by saying well, I don’t mean with a coup or anything, just, you know, we’ll have to see what we can do. Which only made it 10 times worse. The US press didn’t really notice but it was a shit storm in the central-Asian press for like 6 months.
But the thing is, every US president has thoughts and plans like that. I’m not saying it or the neoliberal empire are good things. I’m just saying that Biden has those thoughts and then sometimes actually says them out loud which I actually prefer over the “I’m so self-aware that every statement is preanalyzed and often kind of indirect” Washington standard.
Biden has those thoughts and then sometimes actually says them out loud which I actually prefer over the “I’m so self-aware that every statement is preanalyzed and often kind of indirect” Washington standard.
Which is something that MAGAs say they like about Trump, but they’re always trying to cover for his most outrageous nonsense by saying “no, that’s not what he meant.” And in actuality, what he really does is say what he thinks will get the most applause at the time; and sometimes he overshoots.
Whereas with this, it’s like…reasonable stuff that has been caught slipping out of Biden’s mouth, just reasonable stuff that most politicians won’t say.
Though I have to say, I really wish some reasonable stuff about a cease-fire and stopping arms shipments would’ve slipped out a few months ago.
Which is something that MAGAs say they like about Trump
Yeah. With Trump it’s a little different. I actually get it kind of. He’s authentic to himself in a way most politicians are not. He’s just a big fat mean asshole who likes shouting and cheeseburgers and raw-dogging porn stars. He doesn’t like paying taxes and he doesn’t like smart people who try to get one over on him. For the most part, what you see is what you get.
I think a lot of rural America has an absolute hatred for Washington, because Washington for the most part hasn’t given a fuck what happened to them for the last 50 years. And I think they see Trump, and say well, he’s an asshole, but he’s not one of those weird plastic people who’ve been stealing from my pension fund and making sure my health insurance doesn’t work, and he seems to hate them too and not afraid to get violent with them. Hey, that sounds pretty fuckin’ good from where I’m standing. He’s got my vote.
I’m not saying their assessment of the impact of Trump on their pension fund is accurate. But their read of him as a person, I think, is actually the root cause of why they like him and I think that part is true.
Though I have to say, I really wish some reasonable stuff about a cease-fire and stopping arms shipments would’ve slipped out a few months ago.
Yes. 😢
their read of him as a person, I think, is actually the root cause of why they like him
Yeah. They want a strong man to hurt all of the people that the alt-right media has told them are the cause of their problems. Only…
he’s not one of those weird plastic people who’ve been stealing from my pension fund and making sure my health insurance doesn’t work,
…is the exact opposite of true (he’s plastic, but angry plastic instead of bland plastic). Which brings me to…
He’s authentic to himself
I don’t think he is, though. I don’t even think he knows what that would look like. I don’t think he likes giving speeches, he just likes applause. I don’t think he wants to be president (and I don’t think he did in 2016 or 2020 either), he’s just terrified of what’ll happen if he’s not in the limelight anymore. I don’t think he likes Coca-Cola or Big Macs, I think he just does whatever will make the person/people in front of him say how great he is. I don’t think he has a self outside of what other people tell him it is.
Incidentally, that’s why he has a quarter million indictments.
he’s plastic, but angry plastic instead of bland plastic
Oh, I wasn’t saying he was honest. He presents himself as smart and rich, which is flaming bullshit. I think some of his followers believe him about that, but that’s not why they like him; there are plenty of genuinely smart and rich people they despise.
The awful neoliberal suit-wearing jerks are one kind of asshole who’s hurting their financial futures and the communities their kids have to live in, and they know that. But absolutely you’re right; Trump is something much, much worse and much more dark, and they’re making a terrifying mistake by supporting him just because he is (genuinely, and with real authenticity) not one of those people.
You may get this then:
https://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reasons-trumps-rise-that-no-one-talks-about
After all these years, I’ve never read anything that explains Trump supports so perfectly.
This was a good read, thanks for sharing
I think they see Trump, and say well, he’s an asshole, but he’s not one of those weird plastic people who’ve been stealing from my pension fund and making sure my health insurance doesn’t work, and he seems to hate them too and not afraid to get violent with them. Hey, that sounds pretty fuckin’ good from where I’m standing. He’s got my vote.
Rural Americans by and large don’t have pensions anymore if in fact they ever did, and they’ve been thoroughly brainwashed to believe that their insurance worked better back when you could be kicked off your plan for costing too much and be blacklisted from getting any in the first place if you had a pre-existing condition. No, the thing that they liked about Trump was that he said he hated all the people they hated too, and he gave them license to speak their hate aloud after decades of being told that they were bad people if they hated somebody because of some indelible feature of their origin or identity.
Though I have to say, I really wish some reasonable stuff about a cease-fire and stopping arms shipments would’ve slipped out a few months ago.
Lol, was about to comment something similar. He should have been publicly calling for a cease fire the second Israel made it clear they will murder civilians
I mean, even Trudeau put his foot in it with his “I think we need an immediate cease–uh, cease-cessation of–a…we need to see the firing cease…”
If Biden had done something like that, this would’ve been over before Christmas.
I’m an idiot when I talk to people all day everyday. The gaffs in speech aren’t what I care about. I care that Biden kept publicly supporting Israel for so long.
To your last point, compare and contrast with Obama, whose speech patterns were chock-full of long pauses where you could just tell he was doing higher-order political math on the next phrase. To an extent that’s because that’s what Obama had to do or else the Hannities and Carlsons of the world would find some minute quibble they could build out into an elaborate conspiracy with which to fan the right-wing outrage machines for another week… but for all the other problems I have with the man I do appreciate the no-fucks-given mindset Biden’s brought to the job. The right wing media hate machine has become fully decoupled from reality at this point; there’s no reason to soft-shoe around things that might set them off anymore.
That’s a super apt description of Obama speeches. Higher-order political math, lol
Now I wanna see a gif of Obama using the math overlay from this.
Look like a brilliant edit waiting to be done by someone less lazy than I am !
I get down voted here for saying that sometimes Joe Biden’s mouth gets out in front of his brain. But it’s so, so true.
What i find funny about that is…isn’t that the case for all “normal” people? Happens quite often to me and a few of my friends and acquaintances. I like Biden because he actually could be just a normal, run of the mill grandpa. He’s had his fair share of loss, he knows stuff and has a lot of general life expectancy…
I mean, look at what they’re doing in Pakistan right now. They didn’t like Khan so they’ve put him in prison, and when his party still won the election despite this, they tried to steal the election (and the state department still hasn’t said anything about this).
The US press didn’t really notice
They’re generally more interested in chasing down the next story, vs. spending more time on a current one.
Edit: I’ve apparently offended people with short attention spans.
An aide to Biden then appeared to inform the president that his microphone was still on.
“I’m on a hot mic here,” Biden replied. “Good. That’s good.”
If he’s still selling them weapons for genocide and still running interference for them at the UN, he is still supporting genocide.
Biden needs to stop supporting genocide. Biden needs to have a come to Jesus moment.
I’m not getting the come to Jesus thing … what does it mean?
You’ve received several responses but the meaningful “come to Jesus” story actually relates to Saul (Paul, who is responsible for much of Christianity) on the road to Damascus.
Paul was persecuting primitive Christians and while he was traveling to Damascus to arrest them, he was temporarily blinded by divine intervention that led to his conversion and stopped him from continuing to persecute people. The dramatic intervention disabused him of the errant beliefs that caused him to injure people, in other words.
See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_of_Paul_the_Apostle
That’s what the comparison is talking about. It’s a metaphor that relates to needing a dramatic and often violent wakeup call to snap someone out of doing something wrong. From a Christian perspective you can see how Paul being shaken up enough to change his name, religion, profession, etc was a real “come to Jesus” moment.
That’s the key context I think you’re asking about. It’s not really about converting to Christianity. It’s more about having a BIG wakeup call that you’re on the wrong path (literally in Paul’s case) and you need to change your ways because you’re hurting people (or you’ll stay blinded if you’re Paul I guess).
Hope that helps!
This is great thanks!
It’s an idiom or phrase that means he’s going to yell at Netanyahu and possibly set an ultimatum.
I understand the meaning. What i dont get is the idiom.
As far as i know (and i am not religious) Jesus only got furious once, at people trying to make money off god and always talked about mans free will
It’s a moment of realization that makes you change your ways. It’s just really awkward phrasing since Netanyahu is a secular Jew.
https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/come-to-jesus/
Just as finding Jesus is said to save a person’s soul, a come-to-Jesus meeting or moment results in new, though difficult, understanding or behavior (i.e., changing one’s ways).
By the the 1990s, the expression had become familiar enough to stand for such a meeting or moment all on its a own (e.g., Our son needs a come to Jesus about doing well in school or People need a come to Jesus about their smartphone addiction).
Come to Jesus is often seen as a business or workplace cliché. Supervisors, for instance, may have a come to Jesus meeting with employees if performance needs serious correction. Come-to-Jesus moment won Forbes’ magazine’s cheeky 2013 Jargon Madness competition, which pitted overused corporate buzzwords against each other à la March Madness basketball brackets.
Thanks. Not going to lie though… i hate it lol!
I’m sure Bibi shares your sentiment.
Just to make it clear. I hate the idiom. Not that Biden intends to confront Netanyahu
It is very funny to use that particular idiom about the leader of the Jewish state.
That’s how idioms ofter are: there’s nothing to get, only to know.
It goes back to tent revival events in the late 1800’s. People would literally come to Jesus and dedicate themselves to Christianity.
How does this translate into getting shouted at though
It’s supposed to mean that enough outside pressure has mounted to force the kind of introspection where you reconsider everything you think you know or are. In a way, you are releasing your ‘self’ in exchange for becoming one with the larger picture.
So you might have someone that let’s say has a drinking problem… They think they are managing and are not cognizant of how their behavior or actions are impacting others. You have an intervention so that the person can learn the weight of the burdens he’s made other people shoulder, forcing introspection and a “come to Jesus moment”
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Sounds like the bad guys
I never took it as a biblical thing, because Christianity especially in the United States has very little to do with the bible. A “Come To Jesus” meeting is about demanding conformity in no uncertain terms
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It means to repent.
It’s an enormous faux pas when you’re talking about a Jewish person that’s for damn sure
With Hamas being very clear about wanting to commit genocide, the choice is this conflict is not genocide vs. no genocide. The choice is about which side is given more opportunity to commit genocide. Horrific that is the choice, but it’s not like disarming the Israelis would result in fewer human deaths in that region.
Well, at least you’re open that you support Netanyahu’s genocide instead of flinging accusations.
Hamas does not have anything like the resources to actually enact a genocide and they never will. Regardless of this, the people of Palestine do not deserve to be executed en masse for Hamas’ crimes.
the fact this even needs to be said is fucking mortifying
It’s mystifying! Hamas is obviously a pretty evil organisation, but the fact that people seem to think this justifies what’s happening is horrifying.
When you colonize a region and then try to say it’s an US vs Them situation like you both should be allowed, it makes your argument a lot less valid. It’s not like these 2 peoples just woke up in a cage together. It’s a colony. One group forced themselves into the area.
This isn’t to say to genocide the Jews or something like your fucked up brain imagines is the only solution. But it does mean that the state of Israel doesn’t get to just stop here and keep all its genocidal spoils. It’s going to have to give up and lose some of its land and absolute power over these people. It has to stop treating palastinians like subhumans. It has to give up control over some things. As long as it’s unwilling to do so, it will continue creating people who hate it to the point of utter annihilation, and it will be the state of Israels fault for treating people that way.
“Genocide” LMAO
Are you denying it’s a genocide, or do you think Biden’s support of Netanyahu’s genocide is funny?
Not that either answer changes anything about who you are.
Ah yes, like how you said we were supposed to have the ceasefire on Monday after you knew the uncommitted vote was coming.
Fuck you.
He does a lot of talking. He also structures arms deals so that they don’t meet the minimum requirement for oversight from Congress in order to supply arms to a country engaged in an obvious genocide. I guess he’s a pretty good multitasker!
Let me guess: If Biden does actually reverse several generations’ worth of mass-murder-enabling Israel policy, and brings about a positive change to the absolute worst thing that the US does and has been doing for the last 50 years, it’ll suddenly be something else that you’re incredibly upset at him about which is your reason you can’t possibly support him.
No? Maybe not. How do you feel about his actions in regard to climate change?
Lemme guess, Biden could go over to Netty’s for a little Palestinian-Baby bbq, and you’d still support Biden?
It’s fair to criticize Biden for supporting and enabling genocide. It’s also fair to point out that. Biden has been a senator for most of those fifty years.
It’s also fair to point out that corporate subsidies aren’t going to solve climate change or bring resiliency to what change is now unavoidable.
It’s also fair to recognize that Trump is an even greater asshole.
But it’s not fair to point to Trump and say it’s unfair to criticize the sitting president for their actions.
Pretty sure none of that has anything to do with what I actually said.
I guess it is easier to argue with someone if you can just decide that they’re saying “it’s unfair to criticize the president” or similar bollocks and then explain why that is wrong. 🙂
(BTW - If you scroll around in this thread, you will find me criticizing Biden)
Pretty sure drawing contrast to your apparently unquestionable support for Biden- specifically surrounding genocide- has everything to do with your criticism that we’ll never be happy.
And you might be right. There’s very little Biden can do or say to come back from his support for genocide. And as for climate change… he’s as hypocritical with that as he is calling for a ceasefire while making sure Israel stays fully stocked on bombs.
(For example, he broke his promise to block new drilling on federal lands, has released more oil from the strategic reserve than all other presidents combined and established policies which has increased oil production.)
Nah man he’s right, Biden fixed the climate and saved Palestine! It’s us, the simple minded voter, who are wrong.
Pretty sure none of that has anything to do with what I actually said.
I should have just said this when you first commented on my original comment lmao. I didn’t realize how easy it was, thanks.
It’s always amazing how dedicated they are at “offering criticism” completely out of context, with little to no evidence that completely ignores anything that doesn’t paint Democrats in a bad light while simultaneously ignoring any criticism of the GOP. Solutions and context are enemies for some reason…
It’s amazing you don’t understand what “context” is.
The original commenter is trying to gaslight. He made a comment about how “we” wouldn’t be happy if Biden reversed course.
The irony here is there is absolutely nothing Biden can do to bring all the dead babies the bombs he’s already supplied to Israel back.
Biden has gone way the fuck out of his way to facilitate and support genocide. And the OC expects us to embrace Biden for stopping that support? For doing the barest minimum?
I guess I can give Biden a golf clap, if that makes him finally do the right thing. And you’ll note he still hasn’t done the right thing.
My guy, we’re going to have an ice free Arctic by 2025. There is no more time for business as usual neoliberalism bullshit. You are deluding yourselves if you think trump is going to bring about the end of the world when the end of the world is literally currently happening lol.
What study bears out that 2025 date? Everything I’ve read regarding sea ice points at 2050-2080 at the earliest.
… so downvotes in lieu of evidence? Plain lies it is then.
criticize the sitting president for their actions.
It’s not this so much as the attitude that it’s too late, so everything he does now is wrong.
If there’s literally nothing he can do at this point that you approve of, then why bother trying to get your approval?
Anything he does now is a hollow apology for what has already happened. Nothing he can do will absolve the US- and him specifically- for what support has already been provided.
Not that my support actually matters to him. Or yours. He doesn’t care what you or I have to say. Which is why he didn’t hesitate to support genocide, and has continued to support genocide.
This is something that can’t be made right. It’s not a political game.
Well the fact that he allowed record oil extraction under his watch says that he doesn’t take it as seriously as he should.
I don’t support Biden for a lot of reasons. One of which being I’m Canadian. Trump is worse than Biden. Does that allow me to pass your purity test? Do you have anything at all of substance to add to my comment or just fucking argumentative bullshit?
Well the fact that he allowed record oil extraction under his watch says that he doesn’t take it as seriously as he should.
Got it. So there are two talking points which are commonly brought up to say Biden did a bad job on the climate; this is one of them. This, in contrast, is an actual summary of what he’s done; among other things, it claims there’s a Democratic theory that the big climate bill puts us on track for a 40% reduction in emissions by 2030. I don’t know if that’s accurate, but those are the terms in which I think it’s sensible to analyze his actions on climate: What is the expected impact? As opposed to, what’s some individual fact that is cherry-picked for maximum argumentation impact, and then repeated consistently without context (in this case, used to argue that he doesn’t take it seriously when he made massive climate legislation into a priority early on in his presidency.)
Does that allow me to pass your purity test? Do you have anything at all of substance to add to my comment or just fucking argumentative bullshit?
Sorry, what? My comment wasn’t real polite, but it’s not like there wasn’t a productive point to it.
I suspect your original comment of being made in bad faith. Your response to my question about the climate, which does not include detailed analysis of what’s going on, but does fit lock-and-key into one of the two active talking points about “why Biden is bad for the climate,” furthers that suspicion.
You’re obviously not obligated to talk with me further about it. I was just curious. You’re free to say whatever you want.
So you literally have nothing to add about Biden and Israel. Shocking.
Just take the L and move to some other debate pls
I started the thread. You’ve done nothing but try and derail. Do you have any thoughts on the structuring (illegal by the way) of arms sales to Israel or are you a troll?
I just noticed that about 8-10 upvotes dropped all at once to your comments in this exchange, and a similar number of downvotes all at once to mine. Would it offend you if I investigated in some detail where all those votes came from?
I was legitimately thrilled with the Inflation Reduction Act. That was huge. But I can’t turn a blind eye on the travesty that is the Gaza genocide. It’s not just a continuation of US foreign policy. But maybe our foreign policy wouldn’t be so awful if people like you didn’t just shrug.
I’m just gonna refer you to this thread; I had this conversation already today. Those comments rebut your claim that I’m “turning a blind eye” (at least as far as my comments on Lemmy, for whatever they’re worth), and the links in them contain some rebuttals for your ideas about what’s happening in Gaza being 100% Biden’s fault. Some percent yes, on that we’ll agree if on basically nothing else about this.
I’m glad to hear you share (some of) my dissapointment with Biden. It’s so nice to find some common ground in a conversation on here, I’m not going to try to pick a further fight. Have a good day
All good 👍🏻
So how’s the ceasefire deal coming?
Yeah but he was caught in this totally unscripted “hot mic” event looking like he’s going to do something. Thats all he needs to do for the sycophants to swoon over him.
Fuck the 30,000 dead, its Dark Brandon time baby. He’s totally gonna one day do something to stop what he is already doing for Israel!
It will be funny watching these guys backpedal next week when fucking nothing changes.
Do you hear them now say shit about the cease fire that was totally going to happen by tomorrow or what ever it was he was saying for weeks?
As soon as the dates over, they move on. There will be no backpedalling or giving a shit they were wrong, it’s MAGA level cultism going on. They’re always right and infallible, any criticism is Russian shills trying to sow division, &tc.
It’s ramped up so much on Lemmy the past few weeks, that I feel we must’ve attracted the attention of some astro-turfing. So yay we’re in the big league now I guess?
Yeah it’s fucking wild to see. Like yeah I get it, the lesser of two evils yadda yadda. You don’t deserve to be a country anymore when you’ve reached the point when the lesser of two evils is outpacing Conservatives on oil production and tripping over itself to aid in a blatent genocide. Fuck off with that shit.
It really looks like he’s about to start taking concrete actions, you’re perfectly correct in criticizing how long this took but in the past few days he’s started the floating harbor plan and is probably going to come down hard on Netanyahu. Skepticism is fair, but everything is currently moving in the right direction.
Maybe if there wasn’t an 80 year old Zionist in the Whitehouse things wouldnt take a fortnight to ponder.
Yup, we’d sure as hell have boots on the ground delivering aide if it was Bernie in office, but it seems like Biden is reading the writing on the wall.
Yeah it’s too bad it took him 30000 dead brown people to start to maybe consider maybe asking Netanyahu to tone it down a little. So progressive
Edit: You know what, for the sake of clarity, it wasn’t the dead brown people that made him reconsider, it was the fact that it might cost him some votes in Michigan.
Well let’s be fair - he doesn’t give a shit about Michigan - he doesn’t want to be remembered as a one term president.
I think the Genocide Joe nickname is gonna stick around.
Any day now he might actually do something to stop doing what he’s doing.
He’s not doing anything though. The air drops are literally useless (some of the meals were even expired), and the port is gonna take two months, which is too late to save anyone unless aid arrives by truck. If he really wants to do anything he could just force Netanyahu to allow in aid.
I’m seeing 10-year-old walking skeletons on Instagram, but in two months Butcher Biden will finish building his floating harbor.
Biden will come down on Netanyahu when Ukraine gets its F-16s
“hot mic”
Yeah good luck with that, I’m not certain Bibi is all that interested in what Jesus would have to say on the matter.
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It probably was just common usage, but it’s much funnier if he used it specifically because of bibi religion.
Supply Side Jesus.
Biden is going to extol the virtues of exploitation over eradication.
This is basically the capitalist model for foreign policy.
It was also the basis of the Roman empire.
Cute way of admitting that nothing Biden can do can do will please you I guess.
Because there’s no coming back from the sheer amount of support for genocide Biden has already promised, and delivered.
Do you sing praises of a mass murderer who stops with grandma, but killed everyone else?
Despite my best instincts, I’ll bite… When did Biden “promise support for genocide”?
- Biden is not in any way responsible for the October 7th terror attacks and war crimes (targeted killing of civilians, sexual violence and kidnapping, to name a few) that started this whole mess, Hamas (who are the ruling party of Gaza and have been for over a decade) are.
- Biden is also no in any way responsible for the Israeli response, nor is he in any control of the tactics used by the IDF in achieving their goals. Like every US President, real or imaginary, Biden will continue to support Israel because they are (a) our closest ally in the region (b) a home to many US citizens and a cultural site to many US jews, christians and muslims and © under constant threat of attack from every angle by enemies who in some cases have vowed to “wipe Israel of the map” (to name a few, Palestine, Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Iran).
- Despite what lemmy-think might have one believe, neither the UN, the ICJ, or any reputable organization have been able to show evidence that escalates what we’re seeing in Gaza to any kind of war crime, let alone “genocide”. There are 2 million people living in Gaza, and if Israel’s goal was genocide we’d be seeing a lot more death and destruction than we are today. (Help elect Trump and I guess we might get a closer look at it.)
- The Biden administration has been much more effective at delivering aid (by air and now by sea) to Gazans than the UN, Hamas or anyone else.
Biden doesn’t want to see innocent civilians killed, be they Israeli Jews or Palestinian Arabs. Why would he?
Unlike Netanyahu and Hamas, Biden gains literally zero political benefit from the war. His life and his job would objectively be much easier if there was peace in the middle east. You know that as well as I do. In fact, I’d say it’s plainly obvious to anyone with half a brain. This war is a drain and a distraction from the US’s resources ability to defend Ukraine from Russia, it makes the region (and thus, the world) less safe, and it is nothing but a political vulnerability to Biden. And still, there is not a serious politician in this country that would even consider removing support of Israel in the wake of the October 7th attacks, especially given a hostage crisis that is now entering its 6th fucking month.
In other words, while you’re entitled to your subjective opinion that what’s happening in Gaza amounts to a genocide or other war crimes, you can’t seriously blame Biden for any of it.
If you’re looking for someone to blame here, look no further than Netanyahu’s government and Hamas–two entities that have repeatedly propped each other up as boogeymen in order to push their communities into the political fringe for the sake of power. Netanyahu literally funded and boosted Hamas, and Hamas has done everything to maximize civilian casualties (also a war crime, btw) on both sides of the conflict.
There have now been multiple reasonable ceasefire negotiations that the Biden administration has helped negotiate which Hamas has unilaterally rejected. The world is only waiting for Hamas to do what they should have done months ago: return the hostages, lay down their weapons, and turn over the war criminals and terrorists who made it their mission to rape, kill and pillage Israel on October 7th. The ball in unquestionably in their court, and it has been for months.
Despite what lemmy-think might have one believe, neither the UN, the ICJ, or any reputable organization have been able to show evidence that escalates what we’re seeing in Gaza to any kind of war crime, let alone “genocide”. There are 2 million people living in Gaza, and if Israel’s goal was genocide we’d be seeing a lot more death and destruction than we are today. (Help elect Trump and I guess we might get a closer look at it.)
The UN has a very specific definition of genocide under Article II (bolding mine):
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml
"In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
So, point for point, Israel has done ALL of this in Gaza with the exception of the final bullet point, which Russia is doing in Ukraine.
“In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such [snip…]
The part you’re not bolding is perhaps the most important part.
“killing members of a group” is obviously not genocide or every war in history would be considered genocide; “killing members of a group” with intent to destroy that group is what specifically elevates war into genocide.
In other words, intent, context and the details really matter here.
We already know Hamas’ intent is genocide of all Israeli Jews, as was laid out in clear worlds in their founding 1988 charter. And when people say that “Palestine should be free from the river to the sea.”, they seem to be calling for some kind of genocidal one state solution that erases Israel from the map and implies nothing good for the Israeli Jews who currently live there and whose ancestors have lived their for thousands of years. On top of that, many of Hamas’ actions on October 7th (violence targeted exclusively at civilians, rape, theft of civilian property, kidnapping, hiding behind their own civilians as a human shield, etc.) are war crimes.
Does Netenyahu’s government want genocide? It’s debatable. Some of the rhetoric of Israeli ministers has been at least inappropriate and at worst borderline genocidal. But If they only wanted to kill all Palestinians, they wouldn’t only be fighting in Gaza and they would likely have killed many more civilians indiscriminately (there are 2 million people living in Gaza after all). But more important than those are the fact that Israel seems to be following the international wartime rules of “proportionality”, and seems to be able to justify their use of force in the vast majority of cases. They do, in fact, have a right to defend themselves from terrorist threats and wage a military campaign in the hopes of eliminating those threats and saving the hostages (who have been held in captivity for almost HALF A YEAR now.) This is exactly why the International Court of Justice fell short of accusing Israel of genocide.
All that said, the war is horrible and the suffering of civilians is an unspeakable tragedy. The only real solution for peace is a two-state solution under which Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arab Muslims can coexist and live together in a land that they have shared for centuries, or really, millennia. Hamas should release the hostages and accept the ceasefire deal so that the world can move on from this ugly and tragic war.
When did Biden “promise support for genocide”?
there’s numerous statements by Biden since then where Biden insists on ‘unconditionaly’ support for Israel.
Biden is not in any way responsible for the October 7th terror attacks and war crimes (targeted killing of civilians, sexual violence and kidnapping, to name a few) that started this whole mess, Hamas (who are the ruling party of Gaza and have been for over a decade) are. Biden is also no in any way responsible for the Israeli response, nor is he in any control of the tactics used by the IDF in achieving their goals. Like every US President, real or imaginary, Biden will continue to support Israel because they are (a) our closest ally in the region (b) a home to many US citizens and a cultural site to many US jews, christians and muslims and © under constant threat of attack from every angle by enemies who in some cases have vowed to “wipe Israel of the map” (to name a few, Palestine, Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Iran).You’re right. Biden is not responsible for how others respond. He is, however uttelry responsible for his own acts. Including facilitating and expediting arms sales- which he, himself, has gone out of his way to make happen.
Despite what lemmy-think might have one believe, neither the UN, the ICJ, or any reputable organization have been able to show evidence that escalates what we’re seeing in Gaza to any kind of war crime, let alone “genocide”. There are 2 million people living in Gaza, and if Israel’s goal was genocide we’d be seeing a lot more death and destruction than we are today. (Help elect Trump and I guess we might get a closer look at it.)If the rampant devastation of Palestine isn’t enough of a clue, to the extent that half of the buildings in gaza are damaged or destroyed then perhaps you should look into statements by Netanyahu hismelf. Like how he described the second stage of the invasion as a ‘holy mission’, comparing it to Amalek- where the orders were to genocide everything. In the same speech he describes Gaza as a ‘Bastion of Evil’, and that the soldiers are ‘Obligated to Eradicate this Evil from the World’.
Or maybe, from the Deputing Knesset Speaker, Nissam Vaturi whose tweets are… incendiary. Literally. with comments like “we are too Humane. Burn Gaza now,” and perhaps, Pressiden Herzog who said "there are no innocent civillians in Gaza’; or perhaps the defense minister who vowed to eliminate everything.
The Biden administration has been much more effective at delivering aid (by air and now by sea) to Gazans than the UN, Hamas or anyone else.Did I mention he went out of his way facilitating arms deals?
Biden doesn’t want to see innocent civilians killed, be they Israeli Jews or Palestinian Arabs. Why would he?
Yeah. I did mention the arms sales. I don’t know why. you’d have to ask him. (oh. I do know. he’s a zionist).
Unlike Netanyahu and Hamas, Biden gains literally zero political benefit from the war. His life and his job would objectively be much easier if there was peace in the middle east. You know that as well as I do. In fact, I’d say it’s plainly obvious to anyone with half a brain. This war is a drain and a distraction from the US’s resources ability to defend Ukraine from Russia, it makes the region (and thus, the world) less safe, and it is nothing but a political vulnerability to Biden. And still, there is not a serious politician in this country that would even consider removing support of Israel in the wake of the October 7th attacks, especially given a hostage crisis that is now entering its 6th fucking month.
You’re right that it’s a distraction from Ukraine and elsewhere. Ask yourself how Hamas got into Israeli systems and evaded detection on Oct 7th. by the way, Israeli cybersecurity is some of the best in the world. they had help, either from Iran, or Russia. As for what Biden has to gain from the War? nothing. But he does have something to loose.
In other words, while you’re entitled to your subjective opinion that what’s happening in Gaza amounts to a genocide or other war crimes, you can’t seriously blame Biden for any of it.
I can blame him for supporting it though. which is what I’m doing.
If you’re looking for someone to blame here, look no further than Netanyahu’s government and Hamas–two entities that have repeatedly propped each other up as boogeymen in order to push their communities into the political fringe for the sake of power. Netanyahu literally funded and boosted Hamas, and Hamas has done everything to maximize civilian casualties (also a war crime, btw) on both sides of the conflict.
I am represented by neither Hamas nor Netanyahu. I am represented by Biden.
There have now been multiple reasonable ceasefire negotiations that the Biden administration has helped negotiate which Hamas has unilaterally rejected. The world is only waiting for Hamas to do what they should have done months ago: return the hostages, lay down their weapons, and turn over the war criminals and terrorists who made it their mission to rape, kill and pillage Israel on October 7th. The ball in unquestionably in their court, and it has been for months.
The “ball” is unquestionably in the IDF’s court. and has been since Oct 8th. If the IDF is so god damn concerned about getting the hostages back, then why have they killed far more than they’ve rescued?
>There have now been multiple reasonable ceasefire negotiations that the Biden administration has helped negotiate which Hamas has unilaterally rejected
Hamas has made offers that have been ignored as well.
(a) Their “offers” are unacceptable because the involve returning the hostages over the span of months, not days. (b) the last time Hamas and Israel had a ceasefire, Hamas broke the ceasefire by attacking Isreal on October 7th. © Hamas are losing this war, very badly, and are not in a position to dictate their terms on Israel.
If you want a ceasefire, and you should, stop defending Hamas and start realizing that they are the ones who need to surrender and release the damn hostages. God damn.
in arabic, there is no idiomatic equivalent to “wipe off the map.”
you’re regurgitating imperialist propaganda.
If you’re going to embarrassingly try to argue literal semantics, then you should at least know that Persians (“Iranians”) speak Persian, not Arabic. 🤦
Iran has repeatedly called for the complete and total destruction (see: actual genocide) or Israel and its people over multiple decades. Iran funds and supports Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthi’s and many other extremist groups in the region.
kidnapping and murder are crimes, not war crimes. Hamas isn’t an army, and they don’t control a state. there is no war.
>Biden is also no in any way responsible for the Israeli response, nor is he in any control of the tactics used by the IDF in achieving their goals.
under pax americana, he can decide whether Israel comes to the table and stops shooting. instead, he continues to arm and fund them and say he, too, is a zionist
Hamas didn’t start this, Britain and the UN did.
If you’re going to go back 100 years, why stop there?
Why not blame the Ottoman Empire, the Rashidun Islamic Caliphate, the Byzantine Empire of Eastern Rome, etc.
The fact is that Palestine and Israel as countries were created at roughly the same time. Israeli Jews have existed there for thousands of years. The tribe called the Philistines have been there possibly just as long, and supposedly the were often at war with the Judah and Israelites. Though the Philistines were neither arabs nor muslims, who came in around 500 years ago during the Rashidun Islamic Caliphate (still a long time, longer than America has existed).
There has never in thousands of years of history been a free, self-governed, single state of Palestine. Both the Israelis and Palestinians have cultural and historic claims over the region going back hundreds, if not thousands, of years. This suggests to me that the only real and viable solution for peace is a two-state solution in which both sides lay down arms and learn to coexist peacefully. Neither Netanyahu nor Hamas are truly interested in a two-state solution, and as such I consider them both to be enemies of peace.
(And before you spend to much time defending Hamas, please know that disproportionate violence targeted directly at civilians, sexual violence against civilians, kidnapping of civilians, hiding militants behind a civilian human shield, etc., are ALL actual war crimes, and that Hamas has openly supported genocide against Israeli Jews since their founding charter in 1988.)
>And still, there is not a serious politician in this country that would even consider removing support of Israel in the wake of the October 7th attacks, especially given a hostage crisis that is now entering its 6th fucking month.
tlaib and omar have been quite vocal as well as may others. the only way you can claim this isn’t misinformation is by playing at no true Scotsman.
Being “quite vocal” is purely politics. Actions speak louder than words, and you know that.
It’s not the same thing as disarming our closest ally in the Middle East, which again, is something that NO U.S. President would do. Not Joe Biden, Not Donald Trump, Not Bernie Sanders, Not Ted fuckin’ Cruz or whatever asshole the Republicans will come up with next. Israel is too important to America culturally and strategically, and they are under too many active threats from their neighbors.
America will continue to support Israel unless Netanyahu really takes the gloves off and starts indiscriminately waging genocide. Unless Trump is reelected, in which case he’ll probably directly help “clean up” Gaza and the West Bank, and then you’ll really have something to be angry about. I guess we’ll see…
>turn over the war criminals and terrorists who made it their mission to rape,
I have never seen credible evidence of this.
Probably just something about a fig tree anyway.
Why would Bibi listen to someone born in Palestine?
I award him no credit for this. Same as we find out Republicans who privately despite Trump but publicly defend him.
oh, whoops, i dropped my monster statement that i use for my come-to-jesus dong
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On purpose accident?
That’s actually hilarious.
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