The United States has maintained longstanding support to NATO. Most recently, the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2024, enacted on December 22, 2023, prohibits the President from unilaterally withdrawing from NATO without approval of a two-third Senate super-majority or an act of Congress.[71] This bill was a response to Donald Trump’s repeated expressions of interest in withdrawing from the organization.[72][73]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_NATO#United_States
That link also claims the Greens want out of NATO, so I guess they see eye-to-eye with Trump on that one? Honestly, it makes me less likely to support the Greens now that I know that.
The Green Party in the US is just an extension of the Kremlin aimed at peeling votes away from Democrats in key races.
Don’t worry it’s the same in Europe
What are you talking about? Every “green” party I know in Europe is very much against the war in Ukraine and holds Russia responsible. They are about as anti Russia as it gets. Green parties are also very much pro Europe, they want a stronger Europe with more members and cooperation in the EU. Green parties are either center-left or totally left leaning. Green parties usually get a big chunk of votes, not only marginal like in the US.
Russia is heavily funding and supporting the right and far right parties, who are almost all against a unified Europe. Russia is doing their best to break up the EU with campaigns of misinformation, bots, advertising and direct/indirect funding of right wing political parties.
And Russia is succeeding as well with the far right on the rise all over Europe. They already got Brexit through against all odds and are now working on breaking up the rest. In Germany the rise of the right is still fresh, so there is a lot of resistance. But other countries are much less resistant.
Russia is heavily funding and supporting the right and far right parties
Welcome to the new warfare that caught the west totally off-guard. The “poorly educated” were the first casualties and have been recycled into the Russian forces.
I’m genuinely curious if there is no way to stop all/most of these influence & astroturf ops, will we just see a walled off internet with hefty firewalls or content moderation at national ‘borders’? It’d be a huge upheaval to the internet, but otherwise we’re stuck trying for a 100% defense against state cyber attacks
My personal take here is that playing defense is a losing game and that we really need to kick off another 1968 movement. A counter culture that is infecting and firmly against Russia and conservatives.
Thanks for the info. I admit my experience was based on the Italian greens who are irrelevant and generally left leaning, which in Italy means Russophile like anything left of the dems, and on what I know of the German greens, which is that they lobbied for getting rid of clean energy and ramping up the use of coal / gas / petrol, all Russian imports.
I don’t know about other European countries, but Germany’s greens have kept a relatively tidy ship compared to other parties.
Which is why Russia is puppeteering Germany’s far-right to view them as a kind of combined enemy, you often hear them use the term “Linksgrunversifft” / “left-green-soiled” towards people who hold the wrong opinions.
Didn’t they push a similar joined term in America 2016? I remember encountering the words “liberal elite” a lot, probably an attempt to redirect the resentment against the uppity conservative establishment towards liberals instead. I guess it worked.
No it’s not, not at all.
The US Greens are largely subsidized by Republican funders, and Green presidential candidates have been dinner guests of Putin. The US Greens aren’t an independent environmentalist party but are a GOP stalking horse.
The Greens haven’t been the greens since Nader.
Does that apply just for 2024?
Good question and I do not know. And my searching isn’t coming up with a good answer either.
I believe it’s forever, unless found unconstitutional or congress changes and passes a replacement.
The 2024 part of the Bill name is just so you know which fiscal bill it is.
Edited for typo.
Thanks.
Which greens? The Scottish greens?
Yes. The Scottish Greens. That’s definitely for sure who I was talking about.
Lots of greens around in different countries.
And which country do you think I might have been talking about?
Didn’t know. That’s why I asked.
Well… there’s two possible ways you could have found out for yourself-
- You could have just clicked the link and saw which Green Party I was talking about.
- You could have read your own headline and figured it out.
I read the link and there are references to greens in several countries. And I suppose I could have assumed you were talking about the US, but I’ve never heard of a Green Party in the US.
Now I’m sorry I asked. Holy crap.
His father should have pulled out.
It would backfire like Brexit. Imagine the USA openly shunted by all former allies about their war crimes and other international crimes. The US forgets they currently can get away with a lot, and they do, because they are also an important ally. If you remove their NATO support, what reason is left to whistle ignorance?
The US forgets they currently can get away with a lot, and they do, because they are also an important ally
I think it’s only Trump who forgets this not the US. I am not even sure he understands it really
It’s not only Trump.
It’s also Trump voters and voters who stay at home and let him back into office.
I’ll be pleasantly surprised if a majority of American voters turn out against him.
Last time it was about 1 in 3 voted for him, 1 in 3 voted against him, and 1 in 3 didn’t show up.
The US getting held accountable for it’s war crimes? Sounds too good to be true.
Yeah, can y’all vote Trump meow?
/S kinda
Brexit was a disaster because the UK economy was third-place-and-shrinking in the economic block. They had no leverage.
NATOXIT would be a much bigger deal, because the US is the premier global military power and the single largest exporter of weapons and associated tech.
Also, the NATO thing is pure bluster in order to assert leverage over the bloc, while Brexit was a dog-catching-the-car scenario. The Tories invented so many fictions about how awful EU membership was that they couldn’t accept what generous concessions were offered. Meanwhile, Trump will happily take a big personal kickback for a small concession on arms sales.
I’m not in favor of leaving NATO immediately, but to say that Europe would have much leverage is disingenuous. The US enjoys many strategic advantages over Europe besides NATO membership they have:
Large wealthy consumer base with healthy demographics, worlds most advanced military, fastest growing net exporter of energy, worlds largest blue ocean navy that has kept sea lanes open for trade, etc. etc.
Europe is incapable of projecting power beyond EU boarders without US logistical support. They lack the necessary logistical support to do it at scale. They also can’t perform SEAD operations and don’t have the satellite and intelligence gathering assets that the US has.
In short they can take action against the US at their own peril.
It’s not about Europe. It’s about the massive fuckton of TS//SCI shit shared directly with FIVE EYES and NATO, which shows the exact locations of US strategic nuclear weapons, strategic weapons protocols, intelligence gathering techniques and sources, etc that can almost immediately be sent directly to Russia and China as soon as the US walks out the door. It’s about the first line of defense missile detection radars, the cryptologic keys, Global Campaign Plans, Contingency Plans, PBNZ coordinates, non-overflight coordinates, FLAGWORDS, etc.
And that’s not all - you also lost all international trade, everywhere, forever. Bye-bye middle eastern oil and Chinese manufactured goods, because all your oh-so-friendly shipping lanes and freedom of the seas is now contested waters full of could-be-privateers. If the EU, by pure necessity, pivots Eastward into a pan-Eurasian bloc, that’s game for the US.
Breaking away would be painful but there is nothing you’ve stated on the Op Sec side that can’t be changed or moved. Early warning radars are forward positioned for the safety of our allies. Shuttering them would hurt them more than us.
Cheap Chinese goods are a thing of the past. The CCP under Xi is openly hostile to the West. Due to the one child policy their demographics are even more terminal than Europes or Russia’s. The US is in the middle of the largest industrial build out in modern history because of this.
We don’t need Middle Eastern oil, the US is the fastest growing net exporter of oil and gas. If anything they compete with our energy products. Europe and Asia would be hit harder by the US pulling back from guaranteeing freedom of the seas for the global order. If US ships were not on station off the coast of Yemen you would see a larger disruption of trade. Europe has contributed very little to this operation which they are arguably more dependent on.
The US also has the best demographics of the Western world, we are the largest driver of international trade. Europe needs our healthy growing market and workforce more than we need theirs which are in terminal decline.
Look man, if nothing else, we’re subsidizing your insane deficit spending and keeping you from hyperinflation by keeping USD as currency reserves. The EU and the US are comparable sized economies, and I could also say the EU is held back a lot by the still present divisions across its members. An external rallying event would most likely catapult integration and economic and military strength.
All that said, there is no reasonable way forward for the US or the EU without keeping the current world order, which means keeping a strong alliance. If the US and the EU decide on a trade war, that would most likely mean insane inflation and economic breakdown, and a Chinese new world order.
So let’s stop comparing dick sizes, get all our fucking fascists back in their holes, and let’s try making a friendly alliance work?
So, you cool if Canada nopes out of NORAD too then? Gonna use smoke signals for your DEW?
Canada can’t defend their own airspace without US assistance. They have 78 VERY old and tired CF-18s that date back to 1982 to patrol an airspace larger than the US.
They can nope out of whatever they want and get taken over by Russia and China. (Shit even India doesn’t respect their sovereignty and runs Special Ops on their soil.) However I very much doubt the US will let that happen.
We know. Get out and vote!!!
But remember, vote for Biden and not for Trump. If you play nice and behave, a group of unknown people that you didn’t vote for might actually vote for Biden so he can stay president for another 4 years. If you voted for Trump, I guess that group of electoral college people might care enough to still vote for Biden? But who cares anyway. Neither Biden nor Trump actually do anything. They just tell the rest of us to do as they say…I’m being sarcastic, vote Biden! Please! Electoral college dudes… because we know you’re all dudes … Please could you just vote for Biden this time?
… perhaps it was a mistake to legalize weed after all.
this is an appeal to ridicule, and ableist besides
i voted for him in 2008. that was enough for me.
It requires approval of the US congress.
Don’t look now but they give him pretty much everything he wants.
They need to get past the Senate filibuster.
But the real problem is a Commander in Chief who doesn’t want to fulfill treaty obligations. Congress doesn’t have a mechanism to force that, just impeachment which we’ve seen fail already. So while we can’t officially leave, we aren’t going to be participating under him either.
Implying checks and balances will apply to “only 1 day” dictator Don.
So what happens if he just says not to go help NATO if article 5 is invoked (if that’s the one where a member is attacked)? Doing nothing seems more up his alley anyways, pulling out requires more work so he’ll probably just say no if it’s needed.
I got no idea if the US armed forces can deploy without the president’s approval in some way or if Trump says no go then it’s completely off. Been wondering as a NATO neighbor who’s country he called a security threat his first term.
Sure, with Kaine’s and Rubio’s bill from December, it now requires Senate approval. But all Trump really needs to do is to say that the US won’t help its allies, which is what he’s doing. And since NATO is based on deterrence, he’s effective undermining trust in NATO as an alliance. The winners are Russia and China.
You know who also wasn’t in NATO? Ukraine.
Bruh, if Trump wins and we pull out of Nato, Russia won’t even have to invade us. Trump will give Putin a fist bump and a welcome basket when he arrives off the plane.
For those that want to break everything, this is a feature, not a bug. The magats would rather send the world into the toilet rather than not be able to “own the libs” (and women, and POC, and LGBTQ and immigrants, and anyone with one iota more education than them, etc.).
The magats would rather send the world into the toilet rather than
not be able to “own the libs”let their opponents have any success or peaceWith the text adjustments above, it’s clearly something they’ve learned from their Russian mentors.
So usa are going to leave there military bases on our land right ?
Well last time trump did a withdrawal of troops they left everything for the taliban, so it stands to reason it would happen again.
The elites don’t want you to know this but the fighter jets at overseas military bases are free you can take them home. I have 12 F-35s
Lockheed Martin hates this one simple trick!
Hey, hello Howard, next door neighbor… Oi yeah get your jumbo jet out of my airport!
Jelly, I’m going to give it a shot, I’ll let you know how it goes.
Sick delectable piece of trash.
detestable?
You heard the man. Don’t kink shame
Lmao
any Party may cease to be a Party [of NATO] one year after its notice of denunciation has been given to the Government of the United States of America, which will inform the Governments of the other Parties of the deposit of each notice of denunciation
“America? It’s America, we quit”
Euro confusion intensifies
— Hello America, we need to talk.
— Sure America, what’s going on?
— Not on the phone, this is very important.
— Where do you want to meet?
— Somewhere public.
In order to do that Trump would need a MAGA-Republican majority in the US Senate as well, due to a recently bi-partisan enacted law by Congress stating as much - https://thehill.com/homenews/4360407-congress-approves-bill-barring-president-withdrawing-nato/
Good, then NATO can charge the US with war crimes since they will no longer be an ally. Get fucked
I would gladly watch all of our politicians get charged with war crimes. I can only dream.
I believe there is now a law that says that a President can’t pull out of NATO. Only Congress can make that call.
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Needs 2/3rds Senate super majority to leave NATO
Every human has a price.
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That would be a good thing.
Yeah, for Putin and China.
do you care to elaborate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio
As a non-american, I am baffled by the american “left” support for a militaristic organisation that empowered far-right network in western europe’s intelligence service for the sake of anticommunism. Those people killed socialists politicians here.
Of course the whole “encourage Putin to attack other European nations” thing is stupid in typical Trump fashon, but less american imperialism is always welcome.
How exactly will leaving NATO make America less imperialistic? Was it the safety of the mighty European security umbrella that enabled the US to be like that?
that’s fair. i am generally anti-imperialism as well, but i don’t understand what happens when nato goes away in this case
