We legitimately have zero options besides voting for Biden.
And I sincerely hope enough voters realize that, because trump will be worse.
The only thing we can do till 2028 is make a lot of noise about how this shit is unacceptable and Dems need to do better
Unfortunately the DNC knows that while we say it’s unacceptable, we still have to vote Biden or risk trump.
Which is why the DNC has spent 30 years drifting further and further right. They have captive voters and are willing to risk Republican rule so Dems can be as rightwing as possible.
This is honestly the best take on the issue I’ve seen so far.
I am the first person to say we need to break the two-party stranglehold on politics. We need independent candidates in office yesterday. But this election is the abso-fucking-lutely worst time to make a run at that, because that third party vote WILL be a vote for Trump. And if you firmly believe that third party or independent politicians have a place, elect them to your local city council or school board or state legislature. That is where they will make a real, actionable difference.
A vote against Biden, no matter who for, is a vote for Trump. No amount of TikTok “well ackshually” will change that reality.
The election is a tug of war. Trump and his supporters are pulling on the right. Biden and his supporters are pulling on the left.
When you vote for an independent candidate, you are removing force that could have been used to pull against Trump and redirecting that force towards a candidate who has zero chance of winning. A vote for an independent candidate is a vote for Trump.
The only valid retort to this is “well I wasn’t going to vote anyway” and anyone who feels that way can shut the fuck up about everything.
Which will remove yet another barrier to Trump becoming president.
I’m all for breaking the two-party stranglehold but do it in a local election where it will make a difference. This year is the absolute worst year to try a failed presidential run.
It absolutely is. You’re removing a vote that could have been used to stop Trump and throwing it into a candidate who will not win. You are, quite literally saying, “I am completely fine with another Trump presidency”.
There you go again with no concept of how politics works in this country. You are either a shill, or a completely naive person. A vote for a 3rd party candidate is as effective as not voting in the national results. Can you at least see that? When electoral votes are tallied, and NONE go to a 3rd party candidate, those votes are wasted.
I wish this country had a different voting system other than first past the goal posts, but it doesn’t so you need to be realistic in your vote.
if voting for an independent candidate counts as not voting (that’s a lie), and not voting is the same as voting for trump, does that mean that if i vote for trump, it is 2 votes? no.
That’s nice. They’ll lose, and the momentum put to that independent candidate is momentum that could have been used against Trump. Voting for either of them is a vote for “I am not interested in what happens in this country, and sincerely hope Trump wins. Because instead of voting against him, instead I choose to throw away my vote by making some kind of ‘statement’ that will never be heard by anyone.”
last election biden and harris were on the working families party line which is third party. i’m not sure this time around but do y’all even know how third party works?
They have captive voters and are willing to risk Republican rule so Dems can be as rightwing as possible.
It’s simply the logical thing for them to do, in the present state of things.
The far left / moderate left voters are captive for the reason you note. The party is closely aligned with center-left viewpoints, so they have their votes. The far / moderate right voters are all voting republican. It’s the swing voters / true centrists / center right voters who are up in the air, so those are the people the dems have to appease. So they drift further and further towards their viewpoints.
Unfortunately we can’t fix this situation without a healthy show that they don’t have the far left / moderate left votes guaranteed, and need to start paying attention to what we want, too… but we can’t do that without accepting a republican president, which we certainly can’t do right now. So we’re stuck. And it’ll just keep happening that way, because as dems drift further left, the republicans are just falling off the right end of the scale, and they keep falling further every year.
It’s simply the logical thing for them to do, in the present state of things
Except the last time we had a true progressive campaign…
A lot of those 1/3 of voter showed up. And we flipped a bunch of “red states” that the DNC had given up on those.
It’s not that those people won’t vote, they just won’t vote for candidates like Biden and Hillary.
But they turned up for Obama in 08.
We found something that worked, and the DNC’s response was to tighten down primaries so there wouldn’t be another upset.
Which has progressed to them straight up removing an entire states delegates.
Unfortunately we can’t fix this situation without a healthy show that they don’t have the far left / moderate left votes guaranteed, and need to start paying attention to what we want, to
I disagree.
I think if a moderate loses because they don’t get the progressive votes, then nothing will change. They’ll say that progressives are unreliable and this means they need to go further right.
Because we have decades of recent history that shows even if they still get the “lesser evil” votes, they’ll still say the same thing if they lose.
The only option is primaries, which is why I’m so pissed the DNC just vetoed a state primary by yanking delegates away.
If we don’t even have the primaries where the DNC openly say they can ignore results…
We’re kind of out of options.
And I legitimately don’t know what the path forward is. Or why everyone else isn’t shitting bricks right now.
If the DNC doesn’t get substantial pushback, they’re not going to just give up on this veto they just decided they’ll have.
Hell, Republicans will probably keep control of NH’s state goverment for the next four years, if they don’t agree to the DNCs demands about primary order, will NH Dems not get a say in 2028 either?
We legitimately have zero options besides voting for Biden.
If they stop funding israel and stop giving them arms, would it not get those votes back? are all of you really thinking biden would risk trump winning by refusing to halt arms and cash to israel and let the UN come to a ceasefire resolution? if its so dire, i think THEY have a responsibility to us and the palestinians. for one, all the money going to israel could go to be put to fixing our infrastructure, not destroying gaza’s. two, aren’t we going to need all these missiles and bombs for when we inevitably go to war with russia?
The only thing we can do till 2028 is make a lot of noise about how this shit is unacceptable and Dems need to do better
but just like every other election cycle, they will get their votes, continue on w/ biz as usual and then try to win our hearts again and/or fearmonger us again at the next election. with aipac and other big money donors doxxing and ousting progressives, i don’t foresee a functional left after this election, regardless. however, people are mobilizing over this issue and rightly so, its fucking genocide. there is no acceptable amount of genocide and there is no justifiable reason to continue funding and arming it.
Yes, and it’s behind a vote for Trump. If you don’t want the genocide to continue, allowing Donald Trump to be president is literally the opposite of what you want.
Then you better start pushing your party to primary him or get someone else in there. His shitty numbers didnt start overnight, theyve seen the writing on the wall and refused to acknowledge it.
Biden’s arrogance on this is incredible, though of course he’s part of the party establishment so that’s to be expected. “You aren’t allowed to complain about anything and if we don’t win this election it’s all your fault” is not, it turns out, a winning campaign slogan.
And then Trump will make things infinitely worse, and we’ll have to fight that same stupid battle over who’s to blame for the next 4 years. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Or they don’t want to vote for a pro genocide President. Tbh, I get it. Your vote is your stamp of approval for a candidate for a lot of people. It’s the only way to say their approval that a lot of people have, their only voice.
Your vote is a commodity. It’s influence to be spent, and you should spend it wisely.
People who think their vote is some deep moral choice need to get over themselves. Try to affect the greatest positive outcome you can. A vote is not a formal, sworn endorsement of everything every checkbox on the ballot stands for. If it were, only the Trump cultists would ever be voting.
Yeah, I don’t understand hating Biden for something that Netanyahu is doing. And there’s only so much Biden could do other than try to play peacekeeper, which he’s been doing. Pretty much any other actions require congressional support. Biden isn’t a king, he can’t unilaterally declare that we’re ending all support for Israel.
And yet an insane number of people act like he’s over there killing Palestinians with his bare hands.
It doesnt get much worse than death. Liberals will justify any and every possible action to defend the blue fascist by claiming the red one could be worse. What happened to ‘push him left after the election’
Liberals are not that good at projecting outcomes, everything they claimed would happen under Trump if he won 2020 has come true under Biden. So I’ll take your projection with a grain of salt
I think left to your satisfaction would be little further than most everyone else wants him, tbf. lol You can’t acknowledge any of the progress he’s made though? Even like, a tiny bit?
Regarding Gaza, btw, they don’t need our glide bombs to commit a genocide. There’s a whole lot of ways to do an ethnic cleansing, so, you can’t necessarily stop it just by stopping the weapons. It’s not that simple.
We’d have to sanction them or something, that’d probably do it.
No. Prior to Gaza, though Im very critical of him, I did acknowledge a few things. Once he prioritized additional money/weapons and refused a ceasefire while bypassing Congress to allocate more weapons, despite what Israel was doing, and pledging unwavering support. Any progress prior to that is irrelevant. Shipping containers had a higher priority than the lives of Palestinians,
they don’t need our glide bombs to commit a genocide
While true, without access to US weapons, including white phosphorous which is restricted under international humanitarian law, it would be much harder to accomplish.
I disagree, I think it would be easier. I think they’d probably starve them all. Nothing short of UN sanctions could stop them.
People call it a siege, but its not a real one. It could be. Humans require 2000 calories a day, roughly.
And WP is frequently used in smoke applications, where it is permitted. It’s not completely banned. While I won’t say they aren’t misusing it to cause fear and suffering, it is a common tool employed by armies for use outside of deadly munitions.
At any rate, thanks for answering. I understand better.
What a simply mornonic take. Trump literally tried to pull out of NATO, and he would kill support for Ukraine. There’s your genocide. Oh, and he wouldn’t handle the Palestine situation any differently, so make that 2.
Did you forget him putting kids in cages? I would also argue that getting Roe v Wade overturned is going to lead to the deaths of many women. But no point in arguing with you since you can’t seem to admit what a danger to the world Trump will be.
You mean the policy the Biden admin has continued to uphold and has considered making even more restrictive as a political negotiating tool? No, I remember quite well.
Not to mention Israel is absolutely the most important ally we have in the middle east. As lovely as it would be to openly shit on them and Saudi Arabia for being inhumane jerks, we just don’t have that option. The second we alienate Israel is the second WWIII becomes virtually inevitable. Biden’s choosing between shitty options and shittier options, and like it or not, we need foreign allies in strategic locations, especially since Pax Americana is rapidly collapsing.
If we helped set up a two state solution then we’d have another ally over there. Hell, if we had a one state solution, we’d have one more ally and one less genocidal apartheid state to leash. And tbh, it’s probably better we’re not over there fucking things up anymore.
I agree, and to be perfectly honest it’s maddening to see that we had SO many generations to make the 2-state solution happen and they’re still stuck in a bloodthirsty morass. I don’t disagree that there are certain benefits to not being the world’s police anymore, not least of which is avoided exhaustion from the ongoing moral hypocrisy, but I can assure you there are very real costs, too. We might not actually like a world with someone else as the police force, and by the time that happens, it’ll be too late for us to have anything to say about it.
Tbh the time with the US as the world police isn’t great. It’s great in the US because we don’t ever get attacked, can import the financial success from our victories, can come back home after and are basically naive to conflicts at home. But I don’t think they’d say the same for all of South America, Asia, the Middle East, or Africa.
I know China is spooky, but the US has destabilized so many democracies and ruined so many countries in its attempt to stop the spooky ghost of communism to keep its financial stranglehold on its imperial sphere that a multipolar world could be better. He waxes poetic about the time of peace from interstate conflict but ignores how the US has arrested the world from progress, trapping us in this late capitalist hell-hole the working class is in now. There’s still violence form the upper class on the poor, or the Imperial core on the third world.
I also noticed he links to an article on the USSR attacking countries but that doesn’t even compare to all the wars we’ve been involved in where we didn’t have to be, usually on the side of the colonial or imperial power or the dictator. And a lot of the military build up in countries such as the USSR, Cuba, or North Korea is in response to the US threatening war all the time during the Cold War and having the capability and will to enact it. They put forward the possibility of a first strike with nukes in all those countries. It was public knowledge that the US refused to live in a world with communism and even when countries would want it themselves without the USSR doing anything, the US would see that as a reason to interfere, trying to connect it to the USSR anyway. They’ve succeeded, but that doesn’t mean they’ve made the world better, just the US richer. Plus, a lot of the latent conflicts that are coming to the surface in that article are a result of Western interference in local, civil conflicts during the Cold War - such as the China-Taiwan or North Korea-South Korea ones. Not all, like the Serbia-Kosovo stuff, but a lot. Maybe if we had just left and stopped propping up local separatist movements things would’ve been calmer in some of those places, like in Vietnam right now.
Its definitely possible I’ll eat my words because the world is getting scary and chaotic, and I’m not sure how other powers will act without US restraint, but hey, maybe it won’t be worse. Maybe it’ll be better. God I hope so lol.
Bringing back old characters is kinda cheap, but I’ll take it if only because it opens up the way for the zombie Lincoln that has been teased for so long.
You could also argue, if Biden loses it will be because of his uncritical support for Israeli war crimes.
Nobody is forcing Biden to alienate his base.
And, although I personally don’t believe Joe is supporting genocide, it’s not very realistic to expect people to vote for someone who (in their mind) is supporting genocide.
I don’t think he has been, but that’s the perception among his base.
And having his base become apathetic is not gonna help him.
Trump is still managing to keep his own base energized, so they will definitely show up.
The independents and moderates have mostly decided they don’t want Trump, so Biden has them in the pocket, unless he really screws up the economy or does something else crazy.
Motivating the left flank to actually show up, that’s going to be his main challenge.
People broadly seem willing to see through statements the administration makes about Taiwan, but not about Israel. Then again, a lot of critical thought and nuance tends to go out the window when Israel is brought up.
Increasing funding to Israel, publicly say there is no red line Israel could cross where they wouldnt have US support, bypassing Congress 2 times to transfer weapons is unequivocally supporting genocide.
No, if Biden loses, it’s because of foolish Americans who either voted for Trump or threw away their votes. What comes next with Trump is on their heads. You can’t not vote for Biden, then say what happens with Trump isn’t your fault.
So yeah, the youth vote is absolutely critical if he hopes to win reelection, and turnout is a significant part of that, but the opinion of the youth, and further the opinion of the thin sliver of young people here on Lemmy, does not accurately reflect the opinion of the broader voting electorate. The fact is, people here care WAY more about the Israeli conflict than most of the rest of the country.
Oh piss off. Yours is infantile and naive, and you’re not even a voter. People stop taking you seriously when you make this shit personal, and your sentence would have conveyed the same meaning without the invective.
pandering to the elderly is not going to be a winning strategy.
But an analysis like this will only lead to losing.
Like what? Surveying likely voters? I pointed to actual poll numbers. The numbers are there if you care to look, and they’re likely the same numbers Biden’s team is reviewing to chart the best path forward in an election year.
The fact that you seem so unwaveringly sure of yourself without a shred of evidence makes me significantly less inclined to engage, by the way. I might not respond further, so if you don’t want to waste your time formulating another quippish, vapid response, don’t.
I mean, this IS the popular message. It isn’t true, but it is the popular message, regularly amplified by the far left and the GOP alike.
The reality of Biden is that he’s repeatedly pushed and campaigned for student loan debt forgiveness and has accomplished a great deal on that front even against a corrupt and entrenched conservative judicial apparatus preventing it. He’s put a largely-young, massively diverse set of people in charge of the levers of the administrative state. He somehow got passed through a hostile congress the biggest piece of climate legislation ever, in the entire world. He got a huge consensus infrastructure bill passed, too, which in spite of its vast scope has someone gone COMPLETELY under the radar politically – an accomplishment in its own right. He’s had, frankly, a very successful term, all things considered. Better-liked presidents have done far less.
I’m not at all happy with the administration’s words as far as the war on Palestine goes, but the oversimplifications aren’t saving any lives over there either. And in terms of actual actions being taken… I’ve yet to hear someone make a convincing practical argument for what we could do to end the conflict and protect lives, setting aside all the discussions of pure ethics that these conversations usually are.
Similarly, I think it is damn time we get serious about supreme court reform. The institution is corrupt and has been for a very long time – mostly always. But I am not going to say he’s a total failure when he doesn’t do it. It’s morally right to do it. It should be done. Anyone who says otherwise is a fool or a bastard. And I know Biden won’t because it would end him, politically, and the other progress is good and worthy of maintaining.
I’m inclined to agree, but I also don’t know that a lack of munitions would definitely lead to less killing – Israel is a nuclear state, after all, and they seem very inclined to murder Palestinians. A worse-armed Israel might conceivably be even more indiscriminate (as hard to imagine as that is), and I’ve not sat in those JCS or whatever meetings to know what the rational is.
Maybe Biden is just genuinely prescribing his pro-Israel political opinions on the entire foreign policy. That doesn’t seem too likely, given that he’s Mr. Compromise.
Maybe the foreign policy really is just that entrenched in orthodoxy. That always seemed most probable to me, that the idea of in any way blinking in the support is just unimaginable to the top State and actual brass.
Maybe the situation has more complex concerns than any of us know. That’s pretty much certain.
As it is, I think Biden deserves heavy criticism for this foreign policy. It’s more than just a bad look. Aiding and abetting a genocide is not acceptable, full stop. But the idea that he’s not just failing to adequately stand up to it, but is indeed the cause of it is absurd, and either way one bad policy move shouldn’t completely wash away all the other progress – even though it does for so many people.
Personally, I like that he’s being protested like this. I just wish the conversation would stop ink-washing his entire term, obviating everything good that has happened. He’s not JUST the alternative to Trump. The IRA alone gives plenty of reason to earn a vote.
If we start a major world conflict right now I’m sure it will create sufficient distraction from climate change that your kids won’t have anything to fight over.
Which is kind of back to my thesis – respect and acknowledge the IRA. It’s good shit that anyone who voted for Biden, even if it was just as a vote for “not Trump”, should be proud of it. Demanding more like it.
You’re a stupid motherfucker. Remember this comment when Trump wins because idiots like you. You will not get to say that what comes next isn’t on you.
You think things are bad in Gaza now? Just wait. Voting for someone that just ensures a Trump win doesn’t absolve you.
At least if we weren’t giving them weapons and money I wouldn’t feel culpable as an American. My vote went to Biden and now the blood of Palestinian children is on my hands, as it is all of us who voted for him.
They are just too stuck in their ways. I think that’s what it is. The political class in the US has been staunchly supporting Israel for decades without any push back through the fog of “it’s complicated” for oil and military presence.
But now that I and other Americans have looked into the situation there and the history, we can’t un-learn it. It’s the burden of knowledge. Now I understand why the UN and human rights organizations are always telling Israel to tone it down. He needs to at least stop helping them, at least show some backbone as Israel slaps us in our face as we politely ask if they can do a "two state solution, pretty please. Or kill less children pleeeese? "
This country is terrible. I hope something better rises out of the ashes and not just another huge authoritarian country like Russia.
Why is the blood on your hands? For voting for the guy who was less keen on killing Palestinians?
Do you forget that Trump intentionally and actively stirred the pot in the region? That he aligned himself with Bibi, not just Israel, because he likes tinpot dictators? Moved the embassy to Jerusalem just to stir shit up and make it messy? Appointed his son-in-law Jared Kushner in charge of peace negotiations because getting his special boy a cushy job mattered more than protecting life?
What could you have possibly done differently to protect life over there? Any other choice you would’ve made would’ve been a worse outcome for the region. THEN you would be culpable.
A vote is not some deep sign of moral commitment to the candidate. Get over yourself if you think it is. Votes are a commodity. You spend it to affect change. You don’t always get great value on your money, but you have to min max.
Biden had historical turnout from young people. I think it was more based on Trump hate but still they helped. But you’re right, they’re a notoriously unreliable voting base.
Is that true? I thought they didn’t end up showing up even though everyone thought they were. Maybe I a disillusioned by them not showing up for Bernie vs Biden in the last primary.
Weird way to assign blame. It’s not the Democratic party’s fault for having bad policies, it’s the public’s fault for not supporting the Democrats regardless of their policies. If Biden loses it’s because his party made bad decisions.
It’s just how liberal centrists sheild themselves from self-reflection. They know there are people to their left, and engaging with their ideas might make them realize their policies and candidates cause harm, so they decide to dismiss them out of hand as aiding the right. This creates a safe narrative where they’re always the good guy; people to their right are dangerous lunatics, people to their left are naive fools who are unintentionally helping the lunatics, and they’re the only ones behaving responsibly. This allows them to condemn people calling for the end of a genocide without engaging with the fact that their candidate is enabling a genocide.
i’ve been watching this freight train loom ever closer and… thank you for seeing it too…
this is the albatross around the neck of biden… and it’s killing my soul
i know, in my heart, trump would’ve done the same thing, and many worse things…
but ffs, why are the liberals completely blind to a blatant genocide?
I think taking the delegates from NH because moderates keep losing to progressives is a bigger deal that will effect turnout.
Biden’s and the DNC’s excuse that the state Dem party wasn’t able to convince the Republicans running NH into changing the law that NH has to schedule primaries first is an incredibly flimsy excuse.
There was nothing the NH Dem party could do to comply with the DNC.
And of all people, Biden should have been understanding that Dems can’t force Republicans to do something they don’t want to do.
Just making the demand to begin with was incredibly fucked up.
It was an impossible demand, and they act like it was an easy thing that the state party could somehow do with a snap of their fingers.
The only way it could have happened, is if the Dem party broke state law.
And a national party demanding a state party break their own laws to give the favored candidate an advantage is something I honestly thought would just be a Republican thing at least for a couple more elections cycles.
Oh look a concern troll that’s sooooooo concerned about NH and state party rules. This person 100% actually cares and isn’t just trying to suppress the left vote.
I’m concerned that the only other option in American politics besides trump just wiped out an entire states primary for something the state party can’t control…
If you’re not upset about what that means, I don’t know what else to say that wasn’t in my first comment.
I know you’re probably too young to know this, but you just described the American electoral process. This is how the incumbent advantage works. The overwhelming majority of the time, a party will not primary the incumbent candidate because it would be incredibly stupid.
Stop talking about it as if it’s in any way notable.
Sure, unless you want to be really picky. They had better options than Biden, at least. Their failure to develop a new generation of candidates is their own fault, though.
Mark my words:
Trump will win, and it will be largely because of people who refuse to support Biden due to Palestine.
I will be truly happy if time proves me wrong.
We should be criticizing our old, conservative president Biden. He needs to 180 his stance.
Also not voting for him in Nov is vapid and invalidates any defense of the Palestinian people you have.
It sucks, but it’s reality.
Yep.
We legitimately have zero options besides voting for Biden.
And I sincerely hope enough voters realize that, because trump will be worse.
The only thing we can do till 2028 is make a lot of noise about how this shit is unacceptable and Dems need to do better
Unfortunately the DNC knows that while we say it’s unacceptable, we still have to vote Biden or risk trump.
Which is why the DNC has spent 30 years drifting further and further right. They have captive voters and are willing to risk Republican rule so Dems can be as rightwing as possible.
This is honestly the best take on the issue I’ve seen so far.
I am the first person to say we need to break the two-party stranglehold on politics. We need independent candidates in office yesterday. But this election is the abso-fucking-lutely worst time to make a run at that, because that third party vote WILL be a vote for Trump. And if you firmly believe that third party or independent politicians have a place, elect them to your local city council or school board or state legislature. That is where they will make a real, actionable difference.
A vote against Biden, no matter who for, is a vote for Trump. No amount of TikTok “well ackshually” will change that reality.
>A vote against Biden, no matter who for, is a vote for Trump.
this is election misinformation. a vote for anyone except trump cannot be counted as a vote for trump.
The election is a tug of war. Trump and his supporters are pulling on the right. Biden and his supporters are pulling on the left.
When you vote for an independent candidate, you are removing force that could have been used to pull against Trump and redirecting that force towards a candidate who has zero chance of winning. A vote for an independent candidate is a vote for Trump.
The only valid retort to this is “well I wasn’t going to vote anyway” and anyone who feels that way can shut the fuck up about everything.
No. It is a vote for an independent candidate.
Which will remove yet another barrier to Trump becoming president.
I’m all for breaking the two-party stranglehold but do it in a local election where it will make a difference. This year is the absolute worst year to try a failed presidential run.
I never advised anyone to vote for an independent candidate. I am simply correcting your misleading rhetoric.
Good advice on focusing locally for third parties.
>A vote for an independent candidate is a vote for Trump.
no, it’s not. stop spreading misinformation
It absolutely is. You’re removing a vote that could have been used to stop Trump and throwing it into a candidate who will not win. You are, quite literally saying, “I am completely fine with another Trump presidency”.
There you go again with no concept of how politics works in this country. You are either a shill, or a completely naive person. A vote for a 3rd party candidate is as effective as not voting in the national results. Can you at least see that? When electoral votes are tallied, and NONE go to a 3rd party candidate, those votes are wasted.
I wish this country had a different voting system other than first past the goal posts, but it doesn’t so you need to be realistic in your vote.
if voting for an independent candidate counts as not voting (that’s a lie), and not voting is the same as voting for trump, does that mean that if i vote for trump, it is 2 votes? no.
you’re spreading misinformation.
>When you vote for an independent candidate, you are removing force that could have been used to pull against Trump
Jill Stein and Cornel West are running against trump.
That’s nice. They’ll lose, and the momentum put to that independent candidate is momentum that could have been used against Trump. Voting for either of them is a vote for “I am not interested in what happens in this country, and sincerely hope Trump wins. Because instead of voting against him, instead I choose to throw away my vote by making some kind of ‘statement’ that will never be heard by anyone.”
> instead of voting against him
voting for someone who is not trump is voting against him.
>that third party vote WILL be a vote for Trump.
I object to the characterization of candidates as "third party, but as far as I know, no one calls the Republicans a third party.
Please familiarize yourself with nomenclature before joining in on the conversation. It’s important we’re all on the same page to avoid confusion. Objecting to semantics is fine but doesn’t really add to anything in this context. It’s really just a distraction.
last election biden and harris were on the working families party line which is third party. i’m not sure this time around but do y’all even know how third party works?
It’s simply the logical thing for them to do, in the present state of things.
The far left / moderate left voters are captive for the reason you note. The party is closely aligned with center-left viewpoints, so they have their votes. The far / moderate right voters are all voting republican. It’s the swing voters / true centrists / center right voters who are up in the air, so those are the people the dems have to appease. So they drift further and further towards their viewpoints.
Unfortunately we can’t fix this situation without a healthy show that they don’t have the far left / moderate left votes guaranteed, and need to start paying attention to what we want, too… but we can’t do that without accepting a republican president, which we certainly can’t do right now. So we’re stuck. And it’ll just keep happening that way, because as dems drift further left, the republicans are just falling off the right end of the scale, and they keep falling further every year.
Except the last time we had a true progressive campaign…
A lot of those 1/3 of voter showed up. And we flipped a bunch of “red states” that the DNC had given up on those.
It’s not that those people won’t vote, they just won’t vote for candidates like Biden and Hillary.
But they turned up for Obama in 08.
We found something that worked, and the DNC’s response was to tighten down primaries so there wouldn’t be another upset.
Which has progressed to them straight up removing an entire states delegates.
I disagree.
I think if a moderate loses because they don’t get the progressive votes, then nothing will change. They’ll say that progressives are unreliable and this means they need to go further right.
Because we have decades of recent history that shows even if they still get the “lesser evil” votes, they’ll still say the same thing if they lose.
The only option is primaries, which is why I’m so pissed the DNC just vetoed a state primary by yanking delegates away.
If we don’t even have the primaries where the DNC openly say they can ignore results…
We’re kind of out of options.
And I legitimately don’t know what the path forward is. Or why everyone else isn’t shitting bricks right now.
If the DNC doesn’t get substantial pushback, they’re not going to just give up on this veto they just decided they’ll have.
Hell, Republicans will probably keep control of NH’s state goverment for the next four years, if they don’t agree to the DNCs demands about primary order, will NH Dems not get a say in 2028 either?
you can vote for cornel west or Jill Stein.
You misspelled “Trump”.
no, they are running against trump
That’s nice. They’ll lose, and the momentum put to that independent candidate is momentum that could have been used against Trump.
Voting for an independent candidate for president is standing on your rooftop and screaming “I LOVE TRUMP AND HOPE HE BECOMES PRESIDENT IN 2024”.
those votes are votes against trump
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If they stop funding israel and stop giving them arms, would it not get those votes back? are all of you really thinking biden would risk trump winning by refusing to halt arms and cash to israel and let the UN come to a ceasefire resolution? if its so dire, i think THEY have a responsibility to us and the palestinians. for one, all the money going to israel could go to be put to fixing our infrastructure, not destroying gaza’s. two, aren’t we going to need all these missiles and bombs for when we inevitably go to war with russia?
but just like every other election cycle, they will get their votes, continue on w/ biz as usual and then try to win our hearts again and/or fearmonger us again at the next election. with aipac and other big money donors doxxing and ousting progressives, i don’t foresee a functional left after this election, regardless. however, people are mobilizing over this issue and rightly so, its fucking genocide. there is no acceptable amount of genocide and there is no justifiable reason to continue funding and arming it.
Yep, I would place the blame on the pro-genocide politicians before the anti-genocide voters.
Unfortunately genocide isn’t on the ballot so you’ll need to base your vote on some other metric.
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Wow really!? Want to link that?
do you need a link to the video of Joe Biden saying he is a zionist? or the one where he said if Israel did not exist, the US would need to invent it?
So, no link to genocide on the ballot then?
Good luck finding a U.S. politician that doesn’t support Israel.
>Good luck finding a U.S. politician that doesn’t support Israel.
Jill Stein
Cornel West
among others, but those two are also running against Trump.
you can see voting for Joe Biden is voting for genocide.
Yes, and it’s behind a vote for Trump. If you don’t want the genocide to continue, allowing Donald Trump to be president is literally the opposite of what you want.
But you know this already don’t you?
Then you better start pushing your party to primary him or get someone else in there. His shitty numbers didnt start overnight, theyve seen the writing on the wall and refused to acknowledge it.
Biden’s arrogance on this is incredible, though of course he’s part of the party establishment so that’s to be expected. “You aren’t allowed to complain about anything and if we don’t win this election it’s all your fault” is not, it turns out, a winning campaign slogan.
Please enlighten me. When did Biden say that?
And then Trump will make things infinitely worse, and we’ll have to fight that same stupid battle over who’s to blame for the next 4 years. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Yes indeed, but the people pledging to vote against Biden because Israel don’t care. Or don’t believe. Or sincerely think Trump will be better.
Or they don’t want to vote for a pro genocide President. Tbh, I get it. Your vote is your stamp of approval for a candidate for a lot of people. It’s the only way to say their approval that a lot of people have, their only voice.
It really isn’t that, though.
Your vote is a commodity. It’s influence to be spent, and you should spend it wisely.
People who think their vote is some deep moral choice need to get over themselves. Try to affect the greatest positive outcome you can. A vote is not a formal, sworn endorsement of everything every checkbox on the ballot stands for. If it were, only the Trump cultists would ever be voting.
They’re either naive people with a sheltered existence, or bad faith actors. May as well write in a candidate for all the good it would do.
Yeah, I don’t understand hating Biden for something that Netanyahu is doing. And there’s only so much Biden could do other than try to play peacekeeper, which he’s been doing. Pretty much any other actions require congressional support. Biden isn’t a king, he can’t unilaterally declare that we’re ending all support for Israel.
And yet an insane number of people act like he’s over there killing Palestinians with his bare hands.
I know this sounds crazy, but he could not sell them weapons. He is directly supporting what is happening there by doing so.
Call back carrier groups, stop selling weapons, and let them deal with their own fucking problems that they caused
By all means, elect Trump and see if he does any better with human rights.
It doesnt get much worse than death. Liberals will justify any and every possible action to defend the blue fascist by claiming the red one could be worse. What happened to ‘push him left after the election’
Oh, you’re going to see just how much worse it can get.
Are you fucking kidding me?? You think this is as bad as it gets? Read a goddamn history book.
Liberals are not that good at projecting outcomes, everything they claimed would happen under Trump if he won 2020 has come true under Biden. So I’ll take your projection with a grain of salt
I think left to your satisfaction would be little further than most everyone else wants him, tbf. lol You can’t acknowledge any of the progress he’s made though? Even like, a tiny bit?
Regarding Gaza, btw, they don’t need our glide bombs to commit a genocide. There’s a whole lot of ways to do an ethnic cleansing, so, you can’t necessarily stop it just by stopping the weapons. It’s not that simple.
We’d have to sanction them or something, that’d probably do it.
No. Prior to Gaza, though Im very critical of him, I did acknowledge a few things. Once he prioritized additional money/weapons and refused a ceasefire while bypassing Congress to allocate more weapons, despite what Israel was doing, and pledging unwavering support. Any progress prior to that is irrelevant. Shipping containers had a higher priority than the lives of Palestinians,
While true, without access to US weapons, including white phosphorous which is restricted under international humanitarian law, it would be much harder to accomplish.
I disagree, I think it would be easier. I think they’d probably starve them all. Nothing short of UN sanctions could stop them.
People call it a siege, but its not a real one. It could be. Humans require 2000 calories a day, roughly.
And WP is frequently used in smoke applications, where it is permitted. It’s not completely banned. While I won’t say they aren’t misusing it to cause fear and suffering, it is a common tool employed by armies for use outside of deadly munitions.
At any rate, thanks for answering. I understand better.
I mean how many genocides did he do?
Fuck that stupid blowhard, but at least his genocides are only potential futures, Biden is locked in already at 1
What a simply mornonic take. Trump literally tried to pull out of NATO, and he would kill support for Ukraine. There’s your genocide. Oh, and he wouldn’t handle the Palestine situation any differently, so make that 2.
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So, 0 actual genocides supported right?
Did you forget him putting kids in cages? I would also argue that getting Roe v Wade overturned is going to lead to the deaths of many women. But no point in arguing with you since you can’t seem to admit what a danger to the world Trump will be.
You mean the policy the Biden admin has continued to uphold and has considered making even more restrictive as a political negotiating tool? No, I remember quite well.
Biden continued that policy and I believe even increased it.
Trump is a fucking something, but Biden is not the messiah you pretend him to be.
Not to mention Israel is absolutely the most important ally we have in the middle east. As lovely as it would be to openly shit on them and Saudi Arabia for being inhumane jerks, we just don’t have that option. The second we alienate Israel is the second WWIII becomes virtually inevitable. Biden’s choosing between shitty options and shittier options, and like it or not, we need foreign allies in strategic locations, especially since Pax Americana is rapidly collapsing.
If we helped set up a two state solution then we’d have another ally over there. Hell, if we had a one state solution, we’d have one more ally and one less genocidal apartheid state to leash. And tbh, it’s probably better we’re not over there fucking things up anymore.
I agree, and to be perfectly honest it’s maddening to see that we had SO many generations to make the 2-state solution happen and they’re still stuck in a bloodthirsty morass. I don’t disagree that there are certain benefits to not being the world’s police anymore, not least of which is avoided exhaustion from the ongoing moral hypocrisy, but I can assure you there are very real costs, too. We might not actually like a world with someone else as the police force, and by the time that happens, it’ll be too late for us to have anything to say about it.
Tbh the time with the US as the world police isn’t great. It’s great in the US because we don’t ever get attacked, can import the financial success from our victories, can come back home after and are basically naive to conflicts at home. But I don’t think they’d say the same for all of South America, Asia, the Middle East, or Africa.
I know China is spooky, but the US has destabilized so many democracies and ruined so many countries in its attempt to stop the spooky ghost of communism to keep its financial stranglehold on its imperial sphere that a multipolar world could be better. He waxes poetic about the time of peace from interstate conflict but ignores how the US has arrested the world from progress, trapping us in this late capitalist hell-hole the working class is in now. There’s still violence form the upper class on the poor, or the Imperial core on the third world.
I also noticed he links to an article on the USSR attacking countries but that doesn’t even compare to all the wars we’ve been involved in where we didn’t have to be, usually on the side of the colonial or imperial power or the dictator. And a lot of the military build up in countries such as the USSR, Cuba, or North Korea is in response to the US threatening war all the time during the Cold War and having the capability and will to enact it. They put forward the possibility of a first strike with nukes in all those countries. It was public knowledge that the US refused to live in a world with communism and even when countries would want it themselves without the USSR doing anything, the US would see that as a reason to interfere, trying to connect it to the USSR anyway. They’ve succeeded, but that doesn’t mean they’ve made the world better, just the US richer. Plus, a lot of the latent conflicts that are coming to the surface in that article are a result of Western interference in local, civil conflicts during the Cold War - such as the China-Taiwan or North Korea-South Korea ones. Not all, like the Serbia-Kosovo stuff, but a lot. Maybe if we had just left and stopped propping up local separatist movements things would’ve been calmer in some of those places, like in Vietnam right now.
Its definitely possible I’ll eat my words because the world is getting scary and chaotic, and I’m not sure how other powers will act without US restraint, but hey, maybe it won’t be worse. Maybe it’ll be better. God I hope so lol.
I’ll definitely vote for Biden, but I just can’t donate for now until he stops fucking funding the conflict.
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Will one of the most beloved presidents be the one who rigs it too?
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Bringing back old characters is kinda cheap, but I’ll take it if only because it opens up the way for the zombie Lincoln that has been teased for so long.
You could also argue, if Biden loses it will be because of his uncritical support for Israeli war crimes.
Nobody is forcing Biden to alienate his base.
And, although I personally don’t believe Joe is supporting genocide, it’s not very realistic to expect people to vote for someone who (in their mind) is supporting genocide.
Has biden truly been uncritical? Don’t get wrong, I don’t think he’s done enough but to say he’s bene uncritical seems inaccurate.
I don’t think he has been, but that’s the perception among his base.
And having his base become apathetic is not gonna help him.
Trump is still managing to keep his own base energized, so they will definitely show up.
The independents and moderates have mostly decided they don’t want Trump, so Biden has them in the pocket, unless he really screws up the economy or does something else crazy.
Motivating the left flank to actually show up, that’s going to be his main challenge.
Do we know if he won last time due to the left flank?
People broadly seem willing to see through statements the administration makes about Taiwan, but not about Israel. Then again, a lot of critical thought and nuance tends to go out the window when Israel is brought up.
Increasing funding to Israel, publicly say there is no red line Israel could cross where they wouldnt have US support, bypassing Congress 2 times to transfer weapons is unequivocally supporting genocide.
No, if Biden loses, it’s because of foolish Americans who either voted for Trump or threw away their votes. What comes next with Trump is on their heads. You can’t not vote for Biden, then say what happens with Trump isn’t your fault.
And yet watch them do just that.
Biden’s base is people who are almost as old as the Israel/Palestine conflict. They are not people who are young enough to care about this.
Lol. If that’s the level of political analysis Biden is gaming on, then he’s gonna fail just like Hilary.
The name of the game is knowing your base and getting high voter turnout.
The Republicans understand this. I hope the Democrats don’t forget it like they did in 2016.
I mean, even a significant majority of 18-24 year olds supports Israel, and half of them don’t vote, even in normal years. About 28% of voters who disapprove of Biden’s handling of this situation actually think he’s too supportive of Palestine, and independents are more supportive of Israel than registered Democrats The demographic with the highest turnout rate supports Israel over Palestine by a 6 to 1 margin.
So yeah, the youth vote is absolutely critical if he hopes to win reelection, and turnout is a significant part of that, but the opinion of the youth, and further the opinion of the thin sliver of young people here on Lemmy, does not accurately reflect the opinion of the broader voting electorate. The fact is, people here care WAY more about the Israeli conflict than most of the rest of the country.
You are still thinking that winning elections is about convincing the center.
That was true up to about 2008.
Now, in the US, it’s about turning up the base.
Your analysis is weak, and pandering to the elderly is not going to be a winning strategy.
Up until now, Biden has been smarter than that. And I have some faith he will find a winning strategy.
But an analysis like this will only lead to losing.
No, I’m saying elections are about convincing likely voters. And with Biden’s continued edge with independents, I might be right. Others who have done deep dives into the data agree with me, too. Clinton had a 30-point edge in the 18-29 demographic and exactly the same support in the 30-49 demographic, which means she did better among younger voters than Biden, and she still lost.
Oh piss off. Yours is infantile and naive, and you’re not even a voter. People stop taking you seriously when you make this shit personal, and your sentence would have conveyed the same meaning without the invective.
Nope, but pandering to likely voters might be. 68% of Jewish voters said they’ll vote Biden over Trump, and only 11% were undecided. Hell, even Bernie won’t call for a cease fire. And there’s a stupid amount of money that gets thrown at any Democrat who steps out of line to criticize Israel. Might depressed youth/base turnout lose him the election? Sure. Might also alienating a very powerful (and wealthy) ally who could further depress turnout among a hitherto reliable voting bloc? You fucking betcha.
Like what? Surveying likely voters? I pointed to actual poll numbers. The numbers are there if you care to look, and they’re likely the same numbers Biden’s team is reviewing to chart the best path forward in an election year.
The fact that you seem so unwaveringly sure of yourself without a shred of evidence makes me significantly less inclined to engage, by the way. I might not respond further, so if you don’t want to waste your time formulating another quippish, vapid response, don’t.
I think it’s better you don’t respond. It’s not particularly productive to read your bad takes.
You put way too much effort in providing links instead of actually thinking.
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I mean, this IS the popular message. It isn’t true, but it is the popular message, regularly amplified by the far left and the GOP alike.
The reality of Biden is that he’s repeatedly pushed and campaigned for student loan debt forgiveness and has accomplished a great deal on that front even against a corrupt and entrenched conservative judicial apparatus preventing it. He’s put a largely-young, massively diverse set of people in charge of the levers of the administrative state. He somehow got passed through a hostile congress the biggest piece of climate legislation ever, in the entire world. He got a huge consensus infrastructure bill passed, too, which in spite of its vast scope has someone gone COMPLETELY under the radar politically – an accomplishment in its own right. He’s had, frankly, a very successful term, all things considered. Better-liked presidents have done far less.
I’m not at all happy with the administration’s words as far as the war on Palestine goes, but the oversimplifications aren’t saving any lives over there either. And in terms of actual actions being taken… I’ve yet to hear someone make a convincing practical argument for what we could do to end the conflict and protect lives, setting aside all the discussions of pure ethics that these conversations usually are.
Similarly, I think it is damn time we get serious about supreme court reform. The institution is corrupt and has been for a very long time – mostly always. But I am not going to say he’s a total failure when he doesn’t do it. It’s morally right to do it. It should be done. Anyone who says otherwise is a fool or a bastard. And I know Biden won’t because it would end him, politically, and the other progress is good and worthy of maintaining.
I’m inclined to agree, but I also don’t know that a lack of munitions would definitely lead to less killing – Israel is a nuclear state, after all, and they seem very inclined to murder Palestinians. A worse-armed Israel might conceivably be even more indiscriminate (as hard to imagine as that is), and I’ve not sat in those JCS or whatever meetings to know what the rational is.
Maybe Biden is just genuinely prescribing his pro-Israel political opinions on the entire foreign policy. That doesn’t seem too likely, given that he’s Mr. Compromise.
Maybe the foreign policy really is just that entrenched in orthodoxy. That always seemed most probable to me, that the idea of in any way blinking in the support is just unimaginable to the top State and actual brass.
Maybe the situation has more complex concerns than any of us know. That’s pretty much certain.
As it is, I think Biden deserves heavy criticism for this foreign policy. It’s more than just a bad look. Aiding and abetting a genocide is not acceptable, full stop. But the idea that he’s not just failing to adequately stand up to it, but is indeed the cause of it is absurd, and either way one bad policy move shouldn’t completely wash away all the other progress – even though it does for so many people.
Personally, I like that he’s being protested like this. I just wish the conversation would stop ink-washing his entire term, obviating everything good that has happened. He’s not JUST the alternative to Trump. The IRA alone gives plenty of reason to earn a vote.
This whole thing has made me understand anti-abortion voters.
Sometimes you see something that is so fucking horrific that you can not support anyone who is supporting it.
I was against killing innocents when we did it and I still am.
I keep hearing about how I am supposed to be more conservative as I age, but the older I get the more radical, I am becoming.
At what point do we just burn the system down for supporting this kind of shit?
The war is fucking coming either way, I’d rather it be now, so I can fight it instead of my kids.
If we start a major world conflict right now I’m sure it will create sufficient distraction from climate change that your kids won’t have anything to fight over.
Which is kind of back to my thesis – respect and acknowledge the IRA. It’s good shit that anyone who voted for Biden, even if it was just as a vote for “not Trump”, should be proud of it. Demanding more like it.
You’re a stupid motherfucker. Remember this comment when Trump wins because idiots like you. You will not get to say that what comes next isn’t on you.
You think things are bad in Gaza now? Just wait. Voting for someone that just ensures a Trump win doesn’t absolve you.
At least if we weren’t giving them weapons and money I wouldn’t feel culpable as an American. My vote went to Biden and now the blood of Palestinian children is on my hands, as it is all of us who voted for him.
They are just too stuck in their ways. I think that’s what it is. The political class in the US has been staunchly supporting Israel for decades without any push back through the fog of “it’s complicated” for oil and military presence.
But now that I and other Americans have looked into the situation there and the history, we can’t un-learn it. It’s the burden of knowledge. Now I understand why the UN and human rights organizations are always telling Israel to tone it down. He needs to at least stop helping them, at least show some backbone as Israel slaps us in our face as we politely ask if they can do a "two state solution, pretty please. Or kill less children pleeeese? "
This country is terrible. I hope something better rises out of the ashes and not just another huge authoritarian country like Russia.
Why is the blood on your hands? For voting for the guy who was less keen on killing Palestinians?
Do you forget that Trump intentionally and actively stirred the pot in the region? That he aligned himself with Bibi, not just Israel, because he likes tinpot dictators? Moved the embassy to Jerusalem just to stir shit up and make it messy? Appointed his son-in-law Jared Kushner in charge of peace negotiations because getting his special boy a cushy job mattered more than protecting life?
What could you have possibly done differently to protect life over there? Any other choice you would’ve made would’ve been a worse outcome for the region. THEN you would be culpable.
A vote is not some deep sign of moral commitment to the candidate. Get over yourself if you think it is. Votes are a commodity. You spend it to affect change. You don’t always get great value on your money, but you have to min max.
Young people don’t vote and young people aren’t what helped biden win last time. They can continue not to vote and it won’t hurt biden.
Biden had historical turnout from young people. I think it was more based on Trump hate but still they helped. But you’re right, they’re a notoriously unreliable voting base.
Is that true? I thought they didn’t end up showing up even though everyone thought they were. Maybe I a disillusioned by them not showing up for Bernie vs Biden in the last primary.
I mean, it’s a low bar but it does seem to be true. Wish they would be more reliable, though -_- Especially during primaries
Weird way to assign blame. It’s not the Democratic party’s fault for having bad policies, it’s the public’s fault for not supporting the Democrats regardless of their policies. If Biden loses it’s because his party made bad decisions.
It’s just how liberal centrists sheild themselves from self-reflection. They know there are people to their left, and engaging with their ideas might make them realize their policies and candidates cause harm, so they decide to dismiss them out of hand as aiding the right. This creates a safe narrative where they’re always the good guy; people to their right are dangerous lunatics, people to their left are naive fools who are unintentionally helping the lunatics, and they’re the only ones behaving responsibly. This allows them to condemn people calling for the end of a genocide without engaging with the fact that their candidate is enabling a genocide.
i’ve been watching this freight train loom ever closer and… thank you for seeing it too…
this is the albatross around the neck of biden… and it’s killing my soul
i know, in my heart, trump would’ve done the same thing, and many worse things…
but ffs, why are the liberals completely blind to a blatant genocide?
I think taking the delegates from NH because moderates keep losing to progressives is a bigger deal that will effect turnout.
Biden’s and the DNC’s excuse that the state Dem party wasn’t able to convince the Republicans running NH into changing the law that NH has to schedule primaries first is an incredibly flimsy excuse.
There was nothing the NH Dem party could do to comply with the DNC.
And of all people, Biden should have been understanding that Dems can’t force Republicans to do something they don’t want to do.
Just making the demand to begin with was incredibly fucked up.
It was an impossible demand, and they act like it was an easy thing that the state party could somehow do with a snap of their fingers.
The only way it could have happened, is if the Dem party broke state law.
And a national party demanding a state party break their own laws to give the favored candidate an advantage is something I honestly thought would just be a Republican thing at least for a couple more elections cycles.
Oh look a concern troll that’s sooooooo concerned about NH and state party rules. This person 100% actually cares and isn’t just trying to suppress the left vote.
I’m concerned that the only other option in American politics besides trump just wiped out an entire states primary for something the state party can’t control…
If you’re not upset about what that means, I don’t know what else to say that wasn’t in my first comment.
I know you’re probably too young to know this, but you just described the American electoral process. This is how the incumbent advantage works. The overwhelming majority of the time, a party will not primary the incumbent candidate because it would be incredibly stupid.
Stop talking about it as if it’s in any way notable.
I’ll ignore the insults because I genuinely want to know and no one I ask ever responds again.
When was the last time a national party removed all primary delegates from a state for something the state party had zero control over?
For bonus points:
Was that a state where the party favorite came in last and the most progressive candidate won the last two primaries?
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That’s rich. The onus is not on the people to support the Party over policy, it’s the responsibility of the Party to appeal to the people.
We shouldn’t be blaming voters for the failings of the party and its politicians.
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maybe the democrats should nut up and put a real non corpo candidate up to bat
also people like biden and trump took my vote away so do not get to participate in this “democracy”
Do they even have one?
Sure, unless you want to be really picky. They had better options than Biden, at least. Their failure to develop a new generation of candidates is their own fault, though.
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Lmao nobody cares about Palestine
Even though that will be bad for my country, I would still laugh about it.
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