I don’t disagree. In these discussions though there almost always are a few comments that try to make the case that men actually have it just as bad as women, and I think it’s good to challenge that.
You can support what men have to deal with while also acknowledging that it’s infinitely more oppressive towards women. I think it’s often hard for some people not to mention it because it’s like, yes, feminists have been talking about this exact thing for decades, why is this a realization suddenly?
But men have been told since forever to bottle things up and not acknowledge them. Men don’t get to have emotions. This is not a new issue and in fact many men themselves perpetuate this problem. That isn’t the exact same issue anymore.
When we finally get to a point where people are discussing it, bringing up the group who have been dealing with it for years as though men aren’t allowed to to have these feelings too absolutely minimizes the initial conversation.
There is space for both conversations to happen, and both should happen. But when this happens in literally every thread trying to discuss male body dysmorphia that’s not positive conversation anymore.
I agree. I’m not trying to shut down that conversation, just contextualize it a bit and have it be part of both conversations. Both conversations are linked so I don’t see why that wouldn’t be natural.
I think my point is that they really aren’t linked. It is two groups experiencing similar things, but for a variety of reasons the context is completely different. And moreover because the conversation is essentially brand new for one group and extremely well known for the other, talking about them like they are the same cheapens the conversation around the newer group.
I’d liken it to a friend telling you about a problem they’re having and instead of listening to them, starting to talk about your own similar problems. I realize that’s a superficial example but I think it explains where I’m coming from.
I mean in no way to disregard or minimize the long and well documented struggle women have had with body image issues. But I do think men’s body image issues deserve to be discussed on their own merit without always needing to be contextualized through the lens of women’s issues.
I think they are linked, though. Objectified male bodies tend to be the type of body that men in charge think is the ideal, the same way that objectified female bodies tend to be the type of body that men in charge think is the ideal.
Most of the women I talk to don’t really care for the ultra-built body type we tend to see in blockbusters. If they’re attracted to the leads it tends to be for other reasons that are orthogonal to them being jacked.
One of the goals behind breaking down the patriarchy is removing the singular vision that our culture tends to have on a lot of issues, since our culture is run predominantly by a single demographic. I don’t think sexualized imagery would ever go away, but a higher variety of that imagery that caters to a wider variety of tastes might help with body image issues.
Men feeling shitty for not being jacked, women feeling shitty for not being slim and large-breasted, black women feeling shitty about their hair, black and asian men feeling shitty about their features because so much of our beauty standards are set on white individuals… It’s all particular flavors of the same underlying issue. There’s no harm in adding women have been talking about this for decades. Let’s team up and stop this bullshit.
I think we simply don’t agree. You lose me at your first paragraph. The second this is framed as anti-man, you lose your audience of men immediately. It doesn’t matter whether it rings true or not. Men don’t feel that seeing buff dudes is the effect of toxic patriarchy bearing down on them. They just wish they could be be strong and powerful like these images they see. Telling them they are the victim and that men are to blame is very counterproductive.
There are some very complex socio-evolutionary-mental issues at play here that go beyond guys simply needing to blame men that are more powerful than them for their insecurities. I should know, I’m a guy who thinks often about images like these and what they mean for me and my ability to look and feel how I want. And I’m happily married for over a decade. It’s not about whether women find me attractive. I want to feel like I’m in the body I want. And what I want has been quietly shaped to an unreasonable ideal over the course of many years. That isn’t something easily changed, and it’s really the crux of things.
When men want to talk about this issue, why do they have to minimize the problems women face first? The meme is literally doing that. And I don’t see any backlash against the author doing exactly what you supposedly condemn here.
You make a fair point. I honestly forgot what the original meme was and had focused purely on the discussion. I’d agree that the original meme isn’t productive conversation (though what meme is, really?).
I don’t. I see a comment trying to draw a distinction between the way that unrealistic bodies tend to be contextualized in our culture. It doesn’t say that they don’t cause body issues for men.
The only thing you’re doing here with your comments is saying “but women have it worse!” You’re not here to discuss the actual issue, you’re here to derail the conversation.
And the only spaces in which feminists have had these conversations is in private academic settings on the “men’s issues” day of their course curriculum. To feminists, men’s issues are a footnote. And that’s fine–I don’t expect feminists to really give a crap about how societal sexism affects men; that’s not their purview and it certainly isn’t on them to bring attention to those problems. But stop pretending feminists have given men or their issues equal or even just proportional time in their discussions, much less their activism.
I don’t disagree. In these discussions though there almost always are a few comments that try to make the case that men actually have it just as bad as women, and I think it’s good to challenge that.
You can support what men have to deal with while also acknowledging that it’s infinitely more oppressive towards women. I think it’s often hard for some people not to mention it because it’s like, yes, feminists have been talking about this exact thing for decades, why is this a realization suddenly?
But men have been told since forever to bottle things up and not acknowledge them. Men don’t get to have emotions. This is not a new issue and in fact many men themselves perpetuate this problem. That isn’t the exact same issue anymore.
When we finally get to a point where people are discussing it, bringing up the group who have been dealing with it for years as though men aren’t allowed to to have these feelings too absolutely minimizes the initial conversation.
There is space for both conversations to happen, and both should happen. But when this happens in literally every thread trying to discuss male body dysmorphia that’s not positive conversation anymore.
I agree. I’m not trying to shut down that conversation, just contextualize it a bit and have it be part of both conversations. Both conversations are linked so I don’t see why that wouldn’t be natural.
“i’m not trying to shut down that conversation i just don’t think your viewpoints are valid”
🤣
I think my point is that they really aren’t linked. It is two groups experiencing similar things, but for a variety of reasons the context is completely different. And moreover because the conversation is essentially brand new for one group and extremely well known for the other, talking about them like they are the same cheapens the conversation around the newer group.
I’d liken it to a friend telling you about a problem they’re having and instead of listening to them, starting to talk about your own similar problems. I realize that’s a superficial example but I think it explains where I’m coming from.
I mean in no way to disregard or minimize the long and well documented struggle women have had with body image issues. But I do think men’s body image issues deserve to be discussed on their own merit without always needing to be contextualized through the lens of women’s issues.
I think they are linked, though. Objectified male bodies tend to be the type of body that men in charge think is the ideal, the same way that objectified female bodies tend to be the type of body that men in charge think is the ideal.
Most of the women I talk to don’t really care for the ultra-built body type we tend to see in blockbusters. If they’re attracted to the leads it tends to be for other reasons that are orthogonal to them being jacked.
One of the goals behind breaking down the patriarchy is removing the singular vision that our culture tends to have on a lot of issues, since our culture is run predominantly by a single demographic. I don’t think sexualized imagery would ever go away, but a higher variety of that imagery that caters to a wider variety of tastes might help with body image issues.
Men feeling shitty for not being jacked, women feeling shitty for not being slim and large-breasted, black women feeling shitty about their hair, black and asian men feeling shitty about their features because so much of our beauty standards are set on white individuals… It’s all particular flavors of the same underlying issue. There’s no harm in adding women have been talking about this for decades. Let’s team up and stop this bullshit.
I think we simply don’t agree. You lose me at your first paragraph. The second this is framed as anti-man, you lose your audience of men immediately. It doesn’t matter whether it rings true or not. Men don’t feel that seeing buff dudes is the effect of toxic patriarchy bearing down on them. They just wish they could be be strong and powerful like these images they see. Telling them they are the victim and that men are to blame is very counterproductive.
There are some very complex socio-evolutionary-mental issues at play here that go beyond guys simply needing to blame men that are more powerful than them for their insecurities. I should know, I’m a guy who thinks often about images like these and what they mean for me and my ability to look and feel how I want. And I’m happily married for over a decade. It’s not about whether women find me attractive. I want to feel like I’m in the body I want. And what I want has been quietly shaped to an unreasonable ideal over the course of many years. That isn’t something easily changed, and it’s really the crux of things.
When men want to talk about this issue, why do they have to minimize the problems women face first? The meme is literally doing that. And I don’t see any backlash against the author doing exactly what you supposedly condemn here.
You make a fair point. I honestly forgot what the original meme was and had focused purely on the discussion. I’d agree that the original meme isn’t productive conversation (though what meme is, really?).
It is hard enough to love yourself without wondering if people secretly think your body is vile
I don’t see a comment saying that. All I see is someone saying that it isn’t a real problem for men.
I don’t. I see a comment trying to draw a distinction between the way that unrealistic bodies tend to be contextualized in our culture. It doesn’t say that they don’t cause body issues for men.
Here’s one: https://kbin.social/m/lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world/t/159507/Buffed-af#entry-comment-635033
The only thing you’re doing here with your comments is saying “but women have it worse!” You’re not here to discuss the actual issue, you’re here to derail the conversation.
And the only spaces in which feminists have had these conversations is in private academic settings on the “men’s issues” day of their course curriculum. To feminists, men’s issues are a footnote. And that’s fine–I don’t expect feminists to really give a crap about how societal sexism affects men; that’s not their purview and it certainly isn’t on them to bring attention to those problems. But stop pretending feminists have given men or their issues equal or even just proportional time in their discussions, much less their activism.