The meme is you can’t do any such thing without being labelled antisemitic
Yup, it’s an issue that goes both ways. Israel has historically used the “antisemite” label as a shield for any criticism. And that has all recently come to a head, where any valid criticism of their literal fucking war crimes is treated the same as if you’re a neo-nazi. You can criticize Israel’s actions without stooping to antisemitism. But that won’t stop Israel (and Israel’s supporters) from labeling you an antisemite anyways.
It’s the same strategy that conservatives have used with things like Critical Race Theory. They work to undefine the term, so anything they don’t like can be labeled as such. Don’t like a classroom lesson? Label it CRT. Since conservatives have been taught to hate CRT, they’ll hate that lesson. Even if the lesson has nothing to do with CRT, that doesn’t matter because the conservative voters have already made up their minds about whether or not they’re against it. Antisemitism has become an undefined term for Israel’s supporters, where anyone they don’t like can simply be labeled an antisemite.
Yuo. Conservatives di this all the time. See: woke, politically correct, commie They use terms as cudgels without concern for meaning
they pride themselves on not being able to even define what woke, CRT etc are in their own words.
chuds.
valid criticism of their literal fucking war crimes
Sir, why do you work for the genocide of the Jewish race? Have you no shame, sir? Have you no decency?
/s
The way israels been acting the last 3 months or so, (and also the 30 years prior) I think one could be forgiven for becoming more antisemitic. I mean, people very justly held heavy prejudice against Germans in the late 1940s and 1950s/60s, even though most obviously weren’t Nazis. Why exactly are Israeli Jews different?
It’s a tough needle to thread, because there is both a lot of antisemitism and a lot of opposition to genocide that is not motivated by antisemitism. Any support for Palestinians is joined by a chorus of calls to end the existence of Israel entirely, something that would require killing a lot of Jewish people. So it’s difficult to untangle the legitimate criticism from the antisemitism.
So I don’t disagree with you, but I also understand why people are quick to slap labels on critics.
Israel is not “Jewish people”. Israel “could” end without a single Jew dying. Also, Jews lived there when it was Palestine. I dunno did they die when it became Israel? How are you arriving at the end of a concept being mass murder?
I think if Israel stopped trying to run itself as an ethnostate they’d be fine. I think there’s an argument that the “concept” of what currently constitutes Israel may be too tainted to realistically save. Many unwilling to admit fault, apologize, and return what was stolen. And many unwilling to forgive them for doing it. It would take real concession and change. Something those in charge don’t want. So the people both Israeli and Palestinian will continue to suffer for the gains of wealthy genocidal bigots.
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There is a difference between possible and likely. And you my friend are misrepresenting the two. It is 100% possible. But it also is unlikely because of all the genocidal ethno statists.
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Can you be any more disingenuous? Hamas does not represent all of Palestinians. Israel does not represent all Jews. And yes October 7th was not good. But it’s awful telling that your timeline of atrocity starts there. And not the thousands upon thousands that were murdered by IDF and Israeli forces before that.
Neither group is good. Neither group is innocent. But Israel really needs to stop acting like a victim. It’s not believable.
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There are videos of Palestinian children doing a school play about slaughtering Israelis. And these ffers pretend that you’ve got innocents all around.
no oct. 7th was Hamas, the 70-year-long occupation and pogroms in the west bank, is what all Jews would do…
oh wait, I don’t follow fascist logic
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there are many worlds where the abolition of Israel wouldn’t result in the deaths of Jewish people, unless you swallow the fascist dichotomy of “Israel is the only safe place for Jews” and “Israel is inherently in danger, due to group X”
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Well, at least absent a secular awakening in the middle east. And that is the real issue here in my view, and I’m not sure why so many people seem to be giving a pass to the extremist elephant in the room here.
Many Palestinians were killed or died in the transition when Israel was established.
I agree with you that Israel needs to change, and that they aren’t going to change unless they are forced to change. But the Jewish people living in Israel will not leave peacefully. To “end” Israel is to kill a lot of Jewish people living there.
And the antisemites are counting on everyone making a distinction between the two.
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I can’t seem to find this comment on your user page or anywhere else on lemmy.world
I removed it, thinking that I had phrased it indelicately. The main point of the comment was a link to the Deir Yassin massacre, and maybe I’ll just leave it at that.
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Fuck that. Anti Zionism isn’t antisemitism. Israel is a fascist state with no right to exist. Anyone who associates that fascist state to Jewishness is the true antisemite
Which other nations have no right to exist? Or is it just Israel?
I would guess : ones that disposess the inhabitants for their own gain and then corral the remainders in open air prisons while stripping them of their rights of self determination. Any other state like that would be highly suspect. I think if Russia annexed Ukraine and then walled them in and controlled their electricity, food and everyday freedom, then that would count. All that said, while I think the state of Israel should never have been created in the first place, I absolutely do not agree on the idea of removing the existing state. That would be to visit upon the people of Israel the same horror they visited on the Palestinians. You can’t deplore Israel’s genocidal behavior then wish the same for them
And yet you see the celebration of support for someone saying that “Israel has no right to exist.” Although there are some people who believe all national boarders should be abolished, somehow I don’t think that’s what the poster intended. Calling for the destruction of an entire nation of people sounds pretty bigoted to me. If it’s not anti-semitism, then we’re just splitting hairs. It makes it hard to speak out against the actions of Israel alongside people who are calling for Jewish genocide and being cheered on by those around them.
Calling for Israel to not exist does not imply Genocide, it implies disestablishment of a political body.
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ones that disposess the inhabitants for their own gain and then corral the remainders in open air prisons while stripping them of their rights of self determination.
Gaza isn’t part of Israel and Gazans are not Israeli citizens
It’s an occupied territory.
Agreed?
this only makes it worse, as Israel has defeacto control over the region, same thing with the west bank.
Is it possible to regain legitimacy after doing that, or will the state always be illegitimate?
And how geographically widespread does it have to be?
Because that sounds an awful lot like the US’s historical genocide of the Native Americans and China’s current genocide of the Uyghurs.
I absolutely think states can improve their legitimacy. Israel could work with Palestine in good faith toward a two state solution. There’s always a path forward. See south africa, northern Ireland, Germany in the cold war etc
all of them probably, nations kind of suck
tish isn’t going to sleep with you.
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by your logic, disagreeing with any form of theocracy/ethnostate is hate towards the religious/ethnic groups also, previously being the victims don’t change the ability to be the perpetrator later on.
but it’s good to know that anti-Nazi was just racism against Germans, and that historically victimized groups have cart blanch to commit genocide (please ignore the whole justification the Nazis had where they perceived themselves as some form of victims)
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that’s not antisemitic
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If you see a beaten up homeless person in the street and they keep screaming something about “I’m gonna take over the united States government”, the threat is basically idle and has to be taken in the context of what power he has, as a homeless perspn, as compared to a state like the US. Israel has all the power and is in no kind of substantial danger from Hamas or anyone else. It can erradiacte the entire place easily. Palestine is the homeless person screaming how he wants to replace biden while in fact he is beaten to the ground and survives on scrapes of food.
I’ll be sure not to concern myself with the rockets Hamas continues to fire at Israeli neighborhoods because those people shouldn’t be concerned given the power imbalance is so stark. I’m confident they’ll understand.
I don’t disagree with you that Israel has far more power and ability to influence things than anyone in Palestine does, but it’s disingenuous to portray Hamas as a harmless homeless person ranting about the government when they are often causing injury and sometimes death to people who certainly weren’t within earshot to hear the ranting in the first place.
I don’t have an answer for this situation, but Israel has an obligation to protect their citizens. That shouldn’t come at the expense of innocent Palestinian civilians, though. Everything about this conflict sucks, because there’s absolutely no good actors involved.
I never said Hamas is harmless. I merely said that the extent of their harm is so limited. It took a security nightmare for Hamas to actually do any harm, and this was taken as such a huge unexpected tragedy. Don’t get me wrong, it is a tragedy but no one is surprised that Israel can push a few bottons and kill thousands of Palestinians so easily. Israel can do in a single day what Hamas would plan for months, or even years. All of this and Israel is good at weaponizing these idle threats of “exterminating Israel”. The rockets that Hamas launches barely scratch few people here and there, but it’s always so unexpected that you hear about 1 Isreaeli that died while 200 Palestinians is just a routine occurrence. It’s a tragedy on both sides as you say, but it is not on the same level.
The rockets that Hamas launches barely harm anyone because Israel has invested a ludicrous amount of public funds into anti-rocket defenses. If those defenses were to go down, you’d see the death tolls skyrocket.
You have no idea of the extent of Hamas. There were equally stupid comments about the PLO in the 70s while they hijacked planes. The common thread here is that middle eastern countries fund and engage in terrorism while also promoting the same terrorist leadership and orgs as legitimate political representatives.
Here is a thought. Set a 60 second timer, see how fast you can reach a shelter within that timer. Now imagine that at the end of the timer rockets may or may not strike your home or your family’s home. Are okay with that? Remember that 60 second timer can go off at any moment, including your commute to work.
That’s what you’re calling an “idle threat” that Israelis are presented with constantly.
Read the comment that I’m replying to. The idea that there’s a threat to the state of Israel in its entirety is a fantasy. It’s basically used to have Israel do anything with immunity. Israel can eradicate the region if it wants to, Hamas does few harms here and there. Israel kills thousands and thousands and Hamas takes years to do any damage and it gets talked about forever. You talk about 60 second timers and shelters, Palestinians have no timers and no shelters just people and children dying left and right. There’s certainty antisemitism on that side but there are also some anti Arabic sentiments. Haven’t you seen the Israelis that shout “the only good Arab is a dead Arab” and how they are gonna murder every single Arab they can find? There are videos of this way before any Hamas attacks.
This comment is so oblivious to the actual situation and is so full of lies that’s its not worth addressing. Clearly you value some lives more than others and enforce that belief with lies.
Which bit was a lie?
The bits that contradict their pro-genocide gaslighting, I bet.
Nearly thought you were intelligently giving a point of view of the Palestinian civilians currently under fire from their fascist neighbors.
That was a close one huh
Remember that 60 second timer can go off at any moment, including your commute to work.
That’s more warning than Americans get when some rando decides to shoot up a shopping mall…or a school…or a sports stadium…or the highway on the commute to work. As if no one else in the world is subject to that kind of threat…
There is no government on earth the US would allow to exist if it regularly sent terrorists into schools, sports stadiums, or highways on the commute to work.
So yes, great analogy.
Lol.
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The ability to defend is part of the power we are speaking of though. That’s like saying Israel doesn’t have power because if it didn’t have power it wouldn’t have power. The point stands that because of this ability of defense and superior security, Hamas doesn’t do much damage. The same cannot be said of the other side. We are not arguing about Hamas being evil or not, we are arguing about how much damage can they make given the power of Israel. The threat is not existential bu any means.
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It’s a tough needle to thread
It really isn’t as long as both parties are arguing in good faith and refraining from strawman arguments or other logical fallacies.
Sadly, even that is usually too much to ask for, as evidenced by your apparently good faith post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy of assuming that you can’t argue that genocide of Palestinians is a bad thing without people agreeing with you by arguing that genocide of Israeli people would be super neat.
Of course, claiming that what other people say apart from agreeing with you that Palestinians shouldn’t be murdered is the responsibility of you for some reason is in itself an association fallacy.
Come to think of it, ARE you arguing in good faith or are you just taking this chance to apply guilt by association without appearing to? 🤔
Anyway: NO it’s NOT difficult to defend Palestinians without being antisemitic and benignly doing so does NOT make you responsible for antisemites agreeing with what you’re saying and then adding a lot that you did NOT say.
It really isn’t as long as both parties are arguing in good faith and refraining from strawman arguments or other logical fallacies.
How would you know? That’s really my point. Antisemites are using this moment to inject their bigotey into the political discussion.
Come to think of it, ARE you arguing in good faith or are you just taking this chance to apply guilt by association without appearing to? 🤔
Case in point. I’ve called what Israel has been foing a genocide from the beginning. I think Netanyahu has committed crimes against humanity and should be deposed.
I also think Israel has a right to defend itself from Hamas, and a right to prosecute and root out terrorists.
For this, I have been called a bigot from both sides. And I completely understand, because you don’t know if I’m a secret bigot trying to sound reasonable.
I’m not at all suggesting that it makes me responsible for the statements of bigots, nor am I suggesting that anyone else should feel guilty by association as ling as they are challenging the bigotry. If you march shoulder to shoulder with them then yes you are guilty by association. If you tap into their hatred to achieve your political goals, however benign your goals are, you are guilty by association.
And that’s the hard part. I’m not suggesting it’s hard not to be a bigot. It’s hard to tell who is who from the sidelines.
Ok, that’s true and fair. Glad to meet someone reasonable 😁
It’s not difficult at all. One is criticising government policies and extremists while the other is just bigotry using criticism of an entire people for their government policies and extremists.
So how do you tell a critic’s motivations? How do you separate the two when they are chanting in the streets?
No! This is lemmy! Only one thing can be true at once. The entire world is zero sum, those are the rules, no take-backs.
Big shout out to all the Jews protesting against israel they completely destroyed this narrative.
Are others going to label them as “anti-semitic Jews”? I feel like it would be ironic and ridiculous but I’m not that smart.
Wouldn’t be the first time “self-hating Jew” has been used to shut down any kind of anti-Zionist critique. Bernie Sanders had his face shoved in that turd all through 2016. I remember hearing it tossed around since at least the Bush Era, when being against the Iraq War was framed as a form of anti-Semitism.
I’ve already seen it. I think the common term is “self-hating Jew”.
“anti-Semitism” used to be a term with a lot of weight and serious connotations. Now, it’s been misused and abused so often that the power it once had is gone.
If anyone who disagrees with the genocidal far right government of Israel is an anti-semite then, of course, the term will lose it’s power to shame actual bigots. It should surprise nobody that actual anti-jewish bigots are coming out of the shadows.
Given the end is an intended death can we turn the term “Suicide” into the term?
I never understood why anti-Semitic was applied to Jews but not Arabs. Does anyone know why that is the case?
I was misquoted by an industry rag as one many years ago. I’m a huge fuckin Jew. People look for the negative
I heard them being called “self hating jews” or “traitors” think Dixie chick’s during Iraq or MLK in the boondocks.
I’ve been labeled an anti-semetic Jew for speaking against Israel’s government.
Condemning the deaths of Palestinians is not inherently antisemitic
FTFY
This is one of those memes where you can’t really be sure who it’s talking to.
Agreed. One one hand, some people have been using ‘antisemitic’ (sorry I have no idea how to spell that, and autocorrect isn’t helping lmao) to dismiss just about anyone who criticizes Israel’s actions. On the other hand, there absolutely are people going around being blatantly antisemitic.
I’m assuming that’s what you’re talking about, but correct me if I’m wrong ofc lol.
some of the most chill, accepting, and compassionate religious people I know are jews. Funny how what those people all have in common is hating zionism.
Sadly they’re not the ones running Israel right now :(
Jews who stand against zionism don’t usually have a lot of motivation to live in Israel. It’s a structural issue with the country.
There are some! At least some who stand against these atrocities. It’s definitely less attractive a prospect, though.
“Those that shoot missles and kill civilians are responsible for their death regardless of circumstances.”
“If you think I am criticizing Israel instead of Hamas then you are admitting you can’t tell the difference - and that’s a ‘you’ problem”
The classic Israeli response is the same line used in Iraq and Afghanistan to justify civilian deaths. Terrorists are hiding behind human shields, so its their fault if civilians die.
Combine this with the modern military rhetoric of “smart bombs” and “precision strikes”, the chronic effort by military bean counters to reclassify collateral murder victims as “enemy combatants”, and the intentionally gullible media establishment more invested in getting interviews with high profile bureaucrats than establishing an objective view of world events, and you end up with news articles that posit all state military claims as true-until-proven-otherwise.
Even the framing of the conflict, calling it the Israel-Hamas War rather than the Israel-Palestine War, is intended to deflect any criticism of the genocidal intent of the invading Israeli army onto the Palestinians they are slaughtering.
I say fuck Israel, not fuck the Jews. Not sure who’s the target audience here
Yeah, fuck isntreal
Well that’s a relief, I thought I was missing out this whole time
And if it’s all too complicated, you’re always free to STFU.
This was me for most of the time since this started lmao. I read a lot of news about it, but had pretty much no idea what was going on (still don’t 100% ofc). No shame in STFU-ing :)
We’ve lost the art of stfu if you have nothing to offer, and apologizing or admitting you’re incorrect or your opinion isn’t defensible. Marc Maron does a bit in his most recent Netflix special. We used to say “oh man, I’m so stupid, how’d I miss that, you’re right, sorry” … there’s no regular old stupidity anymore
Authoritarians don’t want you to know this, but:
The people are not the state.
The state is not the people.
Nobody is born anywhere on purpose.
You can condemn the Israeli state without being a Nazi.
The problem is that “Jew” can refer to the ethnicity, the religion, or the state. The same word for 3 different groups. One of them should be denounced but people are too stupid to realize the other 2 groups aren’t necessarily the same people.
Another problem is that Israel is an ethnostate, which is rare in the world today. Yes, you can be an Arab Israeli technically. It’s not a perfect example.
The problem is that creating a state as a “Jewish homeland” is inherently exclusionary to non-Jews. It’s a really backwards idea since the concept of adoptive nationality arose in the late 1700s.
France has a strong culture but is not exclusionary to it’s neighbors (Germany, Spain, etc.). Many border regions share culture with those countries. A person from the south of France has more in common with northern Italy or Spain than someone from northern France.
Do the parts of Israel that neighbor the West Bank and Gaza have similar interchange of culture and ideas? No.
My god can beat up your god, nuh uh, bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb
Some people can, others… well… i think the antisemitic comments are the point for some.
Did anyone else never notice Double D is pointing at a page that’s double the width of the book and has been folded out?
Antisemitic is a meaningless term at this point.
Really? So Elon wasn’t being antisemitic when he said Jews were destroying white people? That was a perfectly acceptable thing to say?
What in the bad faith… Do you not understand what you’re replying to?
The usefulness of a words ability to describe something has nothing to do with how bad the actions someone does are. Both can be true that the word has lost its meaning and the things that elon do are bad
No it really isn’t. There are people who have a problem with people just because they’re Jewish and you help nobody but them by acting like antisemitism is a meaningless term.
But being against what Israel does, is not antisemitism. It has nothing to do with religion altogether!
Lol, we have a massive issue with anti semitic people showing up at protests and taking over.
It keeps happening every time here and it fucking sucks
It means hostile to or prejudiced against Jewish people.
If someone wants to tie their religious identity to a fallible government, that’s their brain damage.
people give a shit about antisemitism far more than any other anti religious sentiment, especially anti muslim rhetoric
My friend, you know that’s just not true. You’re probably trying to talk about your particular country or perhaps your particular city, but on a global scale the claim is simply false.
