- cross-posted to:
- energy@slrpnk.net
- cross-posted to:
- energy@slrpnk.net
You must log in or register to comment.
The question to always ask with these articles is: Is this process prohibitively expensive, or does the process output more CO2 overall than you input? It’s always one of the two.
A third question is, can it scale up to what’s needed to begin to make a dent in the problem. The answer will unfortunately always be no, not even close. That’s how much we’ve put in the air and oceans, the numbers are huge.
Okay, then let’s just give up then.
We can’t plant enough plants to fix the problem because the plants will eventually decompose, re-releasing the carbon back into the atmosphere and environment. We need some form of carbon capture if we ever want a chance of restoring the environment to how it was. Even if we quit deforestation and fossil fuels overnight, we’ll still have all that carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, warming our planet.
Quitting fossil fuels isn’t enough to fix the problem, and quite honestly, the amount of cynicism around carbon capture on lemmy reeks of fossil fuel propaganda. If carbon capture doesn’t work then why bother pushing oil and gas companies to invest in carbon capture? Why spend the money when it could be spent on another oil well or transitioning to solar and wind? I know the latter sounds like a good idea, but again even if we switch overnight, the world will still be warming. Why don’t we make them pay for the damage they’ve done and transition to solar and wind instead of letting them off the hook?
“Oh no, it’s probably too expensive!!! Where do we put it??? It probably won’t scale enough!!! Well, might as well not spend the money, we can use it to enrich ourselves instead.”
I don’t believe it’s a waste of resources to research these things, but it gets old seeing the same headline every month for decades on end. At this point, if it isn’t an actionable process, don’t bother wasting my time with an article.
The Reddit Defeatist Brigade came to lemmy pretty fast, didn’t it?
Don’t decomposing plants spawn new, live plants? Acorns or something, I dunno. I’m not a biologist.
Storing carbon as sodium formate has the same problem as storing it as trees - bacteria will eat it and release CO2. Its also not useful as portable fuel - its energy density is an order of magnitude less than kerosene.
Its potential use as a battery is interesting though. I can imagine a system where a long lasting catalyst is used to fill a tank of sodium formate using waste CO2 from industrial processes and excess electrical generation capacity from renewable sources like wind and solar, and the machines that use sodium formate to generate electricity at times of low wind and solar generation could potentially be less polluting overall compared to mining lithium for new batteries and recycling worn out lithium batteries.
See, here’s an actual reason why this doesn’t work for sequestering carbon. Like, it frustrates me to no end that lemmy, as supposedly environmentally conscious as it is, immediately throws out any man-made attempts at carbon capture and insists that plants are the only solution.
If there’s a real reason why it wouldn’t work, then okay! I get that! Just… We’re already burning up here and we need all the help we can get. We’re already suffering the consequences of climate change and it’s only going to get worse, why is everyone so excited to discount any attempts to improve the capture process? Do you really wanna live with 2023’s weather (or the weather for whatever year we finally start decreasing CO2 output) for however long it takes for the environment to fix itself, or would you rather researchers were trying to find newer, faster ways of capturing it so we don’t have to keep having extreme weather well into the 2060s or later? Even if we switch to all renewables overnight, If you just sit back and let trees do the job, we’ll probably still be experiencing the effects of climate change for the rest of our lives.
the articke does focus on that as a big hurdle, with this “valley of death” analogy
Another greenwashing method.
The slow boil will continue
These articles always avoid answering questions like that and are never detailed enough to inform you. I read this as, without the facts to support it, their process is similarly efficient to others, but yields a more stable end product. If the process scales, it will be more suitable for long term storage than previous attempts
Actually they miss the bigger truth. Unless we direct the bulk of the world’s resources by dismantling the current world order, this shit ain’t ever happening, and the climate is going to cripple the world order inevitably.
A bleak view, but I certainly can’t blame you for holding it.
por que no los dos?
hay más dinero en no hacer nada
So just carry on like normal people! We can keep kicking this can down the road indefinitely, allowing the O&G tycoons continue to rape the planet.
Fuck me.
Yeah, my first thought is we found a way to stave off catastrophe so the deniers can say they were right all along. 🤬
I get the temptation to feel that way, but this development should be seen as a really good thing.
1st we have started to electrify everything which is fantastic but it’s a Pandora’s box, no one can just put that technology back in the box and we’ll see continued development and improvement which reduces CO2 output.
2nd we needed a way to remove the extra CO2 from the atmosphere without overtaxing the environment, this should help us do that and get the planet back to a healthier position.
We will never run out of fizzy drinks now!
We need to find a way to produce more co2 faster just in case
I see “electrolysis” and understand “consumes a shit ton of electricity”
That’s ok with solar arrays on otherwise unusable land. We’re figuring out the clean electricity thing, now we gotta figure out the carbon capture thing.
Here is the paper the article is based on
It is very chemistry dense that is way overy head. It says that “typical” electrolysis techniques have around a 10% “carbon efficiency”, whatever that means, while this one has around 96%.
I also see that in their test they used CO2 gas, so this may efficiently get us a usable fuel from CO2 but may not help us sequester CO2 gas from the atmosphere.
I’d love someone who knows what they are talking about to analyze it for us though.
The sell of the paper is a new fuel storage medium. The positive part is that creating a fuel from existing carbon sources means (hopefully) less petroleum pumped out of the ground to contribute more carbon. The negative is that it leans more to that than the permanent sequestering, and I can’t seem to pick out a net energy use anywhere, but basic physics tells us it will take more energy to do the process in entirety, even if most of it results in large scale storage. I doubt that happens because removal of carbon vs. putting into a new form to be used is like burying money. Which leads to something I’ve noticed pop up only in the past month or so…a new term added. “Carbon capture, utililization, and storage”. CCS has already been very heavily into the production of carbon products to support their efforts, after all they have to make a profit, right? The only real storage done is a product to inject into the ground to help retrieve more oil. Again, they aren’t going to just bury the money, that’s foolhardy for a business.
Sorry for more negativity in the thread. Just calling a spade a spade. Those who don’t like the feeling that gives can just ignore it and focus on the new science that will save us.
No, I agree. Capitalism is a flawed creation that is ingrongruent with continuing to survive on this planet.
Only carbon sequestration I can imagine is if the government taxes corporations and pays others to bury carbon.
Carbon Catch and Release
Net zero emissions are a step I guess, I would prefer carbon negative but the oil and gas cartels are gonna want to sell us something
Sure, okay…and then what?
They want to use it as fuel again
What do you mean? Iirc from the last time I saw this pop up, they wanted to use it as a fuel to heat homes, but it seems like they could just put it back in the ground where it belongs.
Seltzer factory
I keep waiting for them to discover plants.
The big problem with physical carbon storage is that we emit way too much to ever have enough land to store it all as powder. All of these technologies work great at the demonstration scale, but when you do the math for any sort of scale that would make a dent in our emissions, it’s just way too many carbon atoms.
Granulated as roadbase for roads and footpaths? Lightweight agregate additive in concrete? Bricks?
Any one have a better link?
Yeah, this article seems enamored with the idea that the researchers came up with the idea, but doesn’t actually explain how they are doing it at all.
The published study describing their math and method is linked in the article: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S266638642300485X
Well, that’s all dandy with this new tech, but question is, is it economically feasible?
The opportunity, of course, is that it might become feasible to mine the air for carbon (and fold it with added electricity from transient sources like wind/wave/tide/solar) and compete with the folks pumping sequestered carbon fuels from the ground.
Of course, this wouldn’t compete with the use cases for petroleum that arise in refining the polymers in oil (think of all the plastics and other compounds that come out of the oil industry that aren’t refined fuels). Selling those products is so profitable that for years oil companies have been flaring off excess natural gas at the wellhead to be rid of it instead of spending the money to capture, contain, and ship it to market. On the one hand, if this tech to mine CO2 from the air becomes a competitor, 1 of 2 things happens:
-
- Refined fuels become cheap, so cheap that they’ll be flared off as waste instead of captured
-
- Petro-based polymers will become more expensive as their subsidy by the sale of refined fuels is undercut by competition
It’s probably #2, really refined fuels can be considered a waste product of extracting the petrochemicals
-
deleted by creator
Clean, thorium fueled nuclear reactors would be a much better solution for the next hundred or so years until fusion is practical.
